Re: [h-cost] 17th c. blue jeans
Or, the fabric could very well be both linen and wool as in linsey woolsey which has a linen warp and a wool weft often in different colors. Chris Laning clan...@igc.org 11/28/10 10:42 AM On Nov 28, 2010, at 10:30 AM, albert...@aol.com wrote: Of course, what is this fabric we call denim? A heavy-ish cotton twill dyed indigo. It seems quite logical that an old and common weave used with a old and common dye would come up sooner than later. True. I think the other major distinguishing characteristic of what we call denim is that it has colored threads in one direction and white threads in the other. Offhand I don't know which is warp and which is weft, though. Anyone? And of course paintings can't tell us what fibers were used for this very jeans-like material. The fabric in the paintings could well have been either linen (which takes indigo dye pretty well) or wool (which you'd expect for outer garments). Although cotton certainly existed and was used (especially in Italy) I'd want to find out more about _how_ cotton was used before I'd conclude that this is identical to modern denim. Cotton thread strong enough to use for weaving is a different thing than cotton batting used for stuffing (for which I think we have better pre-1800s documentation). OChris Laning clan...@igc.org - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 17th c. blue jeans
Interesting. Of course, what is this fabric we call denim? A heavy-ish cotton twill dyed indigo. It seems quite logical that an old and common weave used with a old and common dye would come up sooner than later. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 17th c. blue jeans
On Nov 28, 2010, at 10:30 AM, albert...@aol.com wrote: Of course, what is this fabric we call denim? A heavy-ish cotton twill dyed indigo. It seems quite logical that an old and common weave used with a old and common dye would come up sooner than later. True. I think the other major distinguishing characteristic of what we call denim is that it has colored threads in one direction and white threads in the other. Offhand I don't know which is warp and which is weft, though. Anyone? And of course paintings can't tell us what fibers were used for this very jeans-like material. The fabric in the paintings could well have been either linen (which takes indigo dye pretty well) or wool (which you'd expect for outer garments). Although cotton certainly existed and was used (especially in Italy) I'd want to find out more about _how_ cotton was used before I'd conclude that this is identical to modern denim. Cotton thread strong enough to use for weaving is a different thing than cotton batting used for stuffing (for which I think we have better pre-1800s documentation). OChris Laning clan...@igc.org - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 17th c. blue jeans
On Sun, 28 Nov 2010, Chris Laning wrote: I think the other major distinguishing characteristic of what we call denim is that it has colored threads in one direction and white threads in the other. Offhand I don't know which is warp and which is weft, though. Anyone? And of course paintings can't tell us what fibers were used for this very jeans-like material. The fabric in the paintings could well have been either linen (which takes indigo dye pretty well) or wool (which you'd expect for outer garments). Although cotton certainly existed and was used (especially in Italy) I'd want to find out more about _how_ cotton was used before I'd conclude that this is identical to modern denim. Cotton thread strong enough to use for weaving is a different thing than cotton batting used for stuffing (for which I think we have better pre-1800s documentation). OChris Laning clan...@igc.org - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com If I interpret Maureen Fennell Mazzaoui's The Italian Cotton Industry in the Later Middle Ages, 1100-1600 correctly, the Italian peasants were very likely wearing indigo-dyed cotton twill. Cotton was still a major product in Italy in the 17th century, and sturdy cotton twill fabrics would have been cheaper and more easily available to the lower classes than wool or linen. Also, having dyed all three fabrics with indigo, the colors in the paintings are more indicative of indigo on cotton--indigo on wool in that saturation is either a very long dyebath or several trips through, which would make it more expensive. On linen it's pretty much the same. Cotton *loves* indigo--it sucks it right up. Wool and linen, not nearly so much. Jen Getty ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] 17th c. blue jeans
Not quite jeans, because the garments aren't pants, but it sure looks like jeans-style denim: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hdNKiR4beIYhMuO9xwl992_jkvHQ The article includes images of three of the paintings. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
