Re: [h-cost] Italian sleeve question
The caps the cuffs and bodice look more like a part of the fabric then embroidery. The bodice, if you enlarge the pictures appears to be pleated. http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG http://tinyurl.com/8q48hy But if you enlarge it and look closely at her right sleeve, you can see the pleats from the section at the top running down into the sleeve itself, and the sleeve certainly appears voluminous enough to have been cartridge pleated. I think the white dots are beads run between the cartridge pleats. However it's done, it's a beautiful dress and is now in my folder of Garb Inspirations! Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian sleeve question
-Original Message- http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG http://tinyurl.com/8q48hy But if you enlarge it and look closely at her right sleeve, you can see the pleats from the section at the top running down into the sleeve itself, and the sleeve certainly appears voluminous enough to have been cartridge pleated. I think the white dots are beads run between the cartridge pleats. However it's done, it's a beautiful dress and is now in my folder of Garb Inspirations! Dianne To try to clarify; The caps the cuffs and bodice look more like a part of the fabric then embroidery. De: This statement was for the hint of gold on the cuff, caps and bodice only. The bodice, if you enlarge the pictures appears to be pleated. De: Was only commenting on the bodice as I agree with the pleating of the caps and cuffs. The gold band could be beads (similar to modern treatment of pony beads on Ts. But it could be a ribbon and because of the tight pleating you do not see the ribbon part in the valleys. Her right caps could be either but her cuff looks more ribbon like then beads. Whichever technique is chosen, I agree that it is a beautiful dress. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian sleeve question
On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 6:47 PM, otsisto otsi...@socket.net wrote: The caps the cuffs and bodice look more like a part of the fabric then embroidery. The bodice, if you enlarge the pictures appears to be pleated. http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG http://tinyurl.com/8q48hy There are other paintings that have pleated or gathered fronts. ex: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/LadyParapet.jpg http://tinyurl.com/8gepo9 Perhaps brocade is not the correct term. What I am saying is that the fabric may have had a design woven on one of the selvage ends (similar to some sari fabrics), including the yellow band and the seamstress may have made use of it by cutting the fabric and sewing it so that the design would end up at the cuffs, bodice and caps. The band seen is to big for a simple running stitch. That may be. I have also seen yarn threads ran along pieces for the same effect. The second picture looks to me to be gathered and the cloth sewn down on top. This was very common in Italy in the 15th c. as it was for chemises. The reason I thought the chemise in the first one may have been smocked was the way the gathers lay flat against the design and didn't seem to have line for a break. Of course it could be the Artist interpretation. None of us could be sure without a time machine. Smocking was used in Germany and Italy in the 15th c. and occasionally in France and Spain. -- Aspasia Moonwind ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian sleeve question
-Original Message- On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 6:47 PM, otsisto otsi...@socket.net wrote: The caps the cuffs and bodice look more like a part of the fabric then embroidery. The bodice, if you enlarge the pictures appears to be pleated. http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG http://tinyurl.com/8q48hy There are other paintings that have pleated or gathered fronts. ex: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/LadyParapet.jpg http://tinyurl.com/8gepo9 Perhaps brocade is not the correct term. What I am saying is that the fabric may have had a design woven on one of the selvage ends (similar to some sari fabrics), including the yellow band and the seamstress may have made use of it by cutting the fabric and sewing it so that the design would end up at the cuffs, bodice and caps. The band seen is to big for a simple running stitch. That may be. I have also seen yarn threads ran along pieces for the same effect. The second picture looks to me to be gathered and the cloth sewn down on top. This was very common in Italy in the 15th c. as it was for chemises. The reason I thought the chemise in the first one may have been smocked was the way the gathers lay flat against the design and didn't seem to have line for a break. Of course it could be the Artist interpretation. None of us could be sure without a time machine. Smocking was used in Germany and Italy in the 15th c. and occasionally in France and Spain. -- Aspasia Moonwind De: It would seem that we may not be communicating well. The chemise is pleated but that is not what I was pointing out with that. With the chemise/camicia, I was pointing out the two different colors that indicated that there was possibly a shift under a shear chemise. The painting of the lady in pink was to show pleating on the gown's bodice to show that the first picture, though fuzzy, appears to have a pleated bodice and that there was a clear picture showing similar technique. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian sleeve question
In a message dated 12/30/2008 7:08:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ca...@thyrsus.com writes: Frankly, to me it looks as though the pleated and trimmed section at the armscye is a separate piece, and is not joined to the sleeve at all. * It looks to be like a bunch of points close together tied in knots...tying the sleeve to the bodice. **New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom0026) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian sleeve question
I have learn so much from this list. I now have options to consider before starting this dress. Thanks to everyone who posted their thoughts on these marvelous sleeves. Lyonet snipped The caps the cuffs and bodice look more like a part of the fabric then embroidery. The bodice, if you enlarge the pictures appears to be pleated. http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG http://tinyurl.com/8q48hy There are other paintings that have pleated or gathered fronts. ex: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/LadyParapet.jpg http://tinyurl.com/8gepo9 Perhaps brocade is not the correct term. What I am saying is that the fabric may have had a design woven on one of the selvage ends (similar to some sari fabrics), including the yellow band and the seamstress may have made use of it by cutting the fabric and sewing it so that the design would end up at the cuffs, bodice and caps. The band seen is to big for a simple running stitch. It appears to be a necklace and not a partlet. There may be a fob on the end hiding in the cleavage. De Original: The chemise looks like it is smocked to me. The tiny pleats and near same color embroidery would match. Is that a necklace underneath or a sheer partlet? As for the sleeves, it looks like embroidery to me. Much of what we think is brocade from period was actually embroidered, not woven. Especially if it had coat of arms on it. I see running stitches across the sleeves, caps, and wrist ruffles, but not the bodice itself. It looks to me like a contrast piece for the upper bodice and sleeve tops with a stitch to bring the sleeve tops and the caps together visually. -- Aspasia Moonwind ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian sleeve question
The caps the cuffs and bodice look more like a part of the fabric then embroidery. The bodice, if you enlarge the pictures appears to be pleated. http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG http://tinyurl.com/8q48hy There are other paintings that have pleated or gathered fronts. ex: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/LadyParapet.jpg http://tinyurl.com/8gepo9 Perhaps brocade is not the correct term. What I am saying is that the fabric may have had a design woven on one of the selvage ends (similar to some sari fabrics), including the yellow band and the seamstress may have made use of it by cutting the fabric and sewing it so that the design would end up at the cuffs, bodice and caps. The band seen is to big for a simple running stitch. It appears to be a necklace and not a partlet. There may be a fob on the end hiding in the cleavage. De Original: The chemise looks like it is smocked to me. The tiny pleats and near same color embroidery would match. Is that a necklace underneath or a sheer partlet? As for the sleeves, it looks like embroidery to me. Much of what we think is brocade from period was actually embroidered, not woven. Especially if it had coat of arms on it. I see running stitches across the sleeves, caps, and wrist ruffles, but not the bodice itself. It looks to me like a contrast piece for the upper bodice and sleeve tops with a stitch to bring the sleeve tops and the caps together visually. -- Aspasia Moonwind ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Italian sleeve question
Greetings to the list, I have spent too much time looking at paintings today and have been entranced by this one in particular. The dress is begging to be made someday, in my mind. http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG These sleeves look like the sleeve head has been embroidered and then cartridge pleated, also at the cuff and then cartridge pleated near the elbow area. Am I interpreting this correctly? And I am thinking the bodice is with the same treatment but is flat, yes? Thanks for any input to my question. Lyonet lurker 99.9% of the time ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian sleeve question
Wow, I have never seen this picture before. Very cool. I think the cartridge pleating approach would workthat is a lot of work to embroider firstI wonder if you could paint a pattern of fabric?? As for the chemise, a pleater would make that easy work Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian sleeve question
On Tuesday 30 December 2008 6:07:59 pm Lyonet wrote: Greetings to the list, I have spent too much time looking at paintings today and have been entranced by this one in particular. The dress is begging to be made someday, in my mind. http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG These sleeves look like the sleeve head has been embroidered and then cartridge pleated, also at the cuff and then cartridge pleated near the elbow area. Am I interpreting this correctly? And I am thinking the bodice is with the same treatment but is flat, yes? Thanks for any input to my question. Frankly, to me it looks as though the pleated and trimmed section at the armscye is a separate piece, and is not joined to the sleeve at all. However, Italian Ren isn't my main period of interest. -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com If someone offers you a dead dog for lunch, you don't stick around for the pudding. --Ben Yahtzee Crenshaw ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian sleeve question
Are we even sure that it's a part of the sleeve? I'm not an expert on this period but it looks possible that it's a series of ribbon-like bits that have an almost fringe effect. Karen Seamstrix -- Catherine Olanich Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com wrote: On Tuesday 30 December 2008 6:07:59 pm Lyonet wrote: Greetings to the list, I have spent too much time looking at paintings today and have been entranced by this one in particular. The dress is begging to be made someday, in my mind. http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CARIANISeduction.JPG These sleeves look like the sleeve head has been embroidered and then cartridge pleated, also at the cuff and then cartridge pleated near the elbow area. Am I interpreting this correctly? And I am thinking the bodice is with the same treatment but is flat, yes? Thanks for any input to my question. Frankly, to me it looks as though the pleated and trimmed section at the armscye is a separate piece, and is not joined to the sleeve at all. However, Italian Ren isn't my main period of interest. -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com If someone offers you a dead dog for lunch, you don't stick around for the pudding. --Ben Yahtzee Crenshaw ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Click to find information on your credit score and your credit report. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2Oy9uV2yQFc6CxCFuZPBK24vfEnREWTQPnbrRP5xShJjKrm/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
