Re: [h-cost] Lack of thread in extant garments
Hi. The recent book (2005) on the Mary Rose finds mentions some silk thread being found in conjunction with the leather jerkins. I can quote the source if needed. Mike T. I've seen this mentioned in a number of places but don't have a cite offhand. If I were to look for one, it would be in the Museum of London's Textiles and Dress book. Another possibility is Else Ostergard's Woven Into the Earth, which mentions the paucity of linen survivals in Greenland; whether it discusses thread, I'm not sure. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Lack of thread in extant garments
Greetings. I have received a request for help: It seems that in a lot of extant garments, the protein fibers (wool and silk) have survived, while the plant fibers have not. We can only speculate that linen thread was used because there are stitching holes and no thread (and it seems unlikely that they would have pulled the silk or wool sewing thread out before tossing the rest in the trash). I was hoping you might be able to help me find some sort of documentation that I can use as a reference that explains how this works? It doesn't have to be overly technical. Right now I cannot get to my books and my brain is not working...so I'm turning to the best group of costuming/clothing/historians that I can think of. Can any of you help, please? Thanks so much. kate Outgoing email scanned by Norton AntiVirus ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lack of thread in extant garments
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Ailith Mackintosh wrote: It seems that in a lot of extant garments, the protein fibers (wool and silk) have survived, while the plant fibers have not. We can only speculate that linen thread was used because there are stitching holes and no thread (and it seems unlikely that they would have pulled the silk or wool sewing thread out before tossing the rest in the trash). I was hoping you might be able to help me find some sort of documentation that I can use as a reference that explains how this works? It doesn't have to be overly technical. I've seen this mentioned in a number of places but don't have a cite offhand. If I were to look for one, it would be in the Museum of London's Textiles and Dress book. Another possibility is Else Ostergard's Woven Into the Earth, which mentions the paucity of linen survivals in Greenland; whether it discusses thread, I'm not sure. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lack of thread in extant garments
This may or may not be related but in research that someone recently put up on the web after her trip to England and allowed to handle primary source material she found that if the garments had precious metal in any form on them that the metal was removed. Hope that helps. It may not have been linen but a precious metal thread and it may have been removed. Not sure how they could test for it though. Chiara On Wed, August 16, 2006 12:15 pm, Ailith Mackintosh said: Greetings. I have received a request for help: It seems that in a lot of extant garments, the protein fibers (wool and silk) have survived, while the plant fibers have not. We can only speculate that linen thread was used because there are stitching holes and no thread (and it seems unlikely that they would have pulled the silk or wool sewing thread out before tossing the rest in the trash). I was hoping you might be able to help me find some sort of documentation that I can use as a reference that explains how this works? It doesn't have to be overly technical. Right now I cannot get to my books and my brain is not working...so I'm turning to the best group of costuming/clothing/historians that I can think of. Can any of you help, please? Thanks so much. kate Outgoing email scanned by Norton AntiVirus ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lack of thread in extant garments
--- Ailith Mackintosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings. I have received a request for help: It seems that in a lot of extant garments, the protein fibers (wool and silk) have survived, while the plant fibers have not. We can only speculate that linen thread was used because there are stitching holes and no thread (and it seems unlikely that they would have pulled the silk or wool sewing thread out before tossing the rest in the trash). I was hoping you might be able to help me find some sort of documentation that I can use as a reference that explains how this works? It doesn't have to be overly technical. Right now I cannot get to my books and my brain is not working...so I'm turning to the best group of costuming/clothing/historians that I can think of. Can any of you help, please? Quoting Museum of London: Textiles and clothing, page 2: ...surviving textiles are biased by the types of deposit in which they are preserved. They occur most frequently where anaerobic conditions prevail, along the Thames waterfront, for example, and occasionally in cesspits. These acid conditions have the effect of causing cellulose fibres to break down very rapidly, particularly through fungal attack, and linen is, therefore, poorly represented. Hope this helps, Lena ___ Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lack of thread in extant garments
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio wrote: It may not have been linen but a precious metal thread and it may have been removed. Not sure how they could test for it though. I have never heard of any instances in which precious metal thread is used for structural seams. Even in embroidery, precious metal thread is typically couched (laid on top of the fabric and held down with stitching of a non-metal thread), as the act of repeatedly passing the metal thread through fabric tends to strip the metal wrapping off the thread core. My knowledge is limited, and strictly medieval in any case. I'd be curious whether anyone knows of examples of metal thread used for seams. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lack of thread in extant garments
Button holes, that is what I was referring to more than seams. I totally misread that post then. I thought she was talking about the button holes. :( Yes, you are correct, they were couched for decoration. I also have never seen them used going through fabric or leather other than to anchor for lace cuffs an then it was the wire form not the thread form. My personal experience is only with gloves. If it was precious metal, it was couched or added in some similar fashion. Where I am extracting my thoughts from is this: http://medievalbeads.com/docs/items/12th-germie-parchement.html I chatted with her about the missing bits of thread and beads. She had some interesting comments based on the documentation that she read in books as well as with the textile experts in the area. I am certain that she could speak to this so much better than I about the removal of precious metal threads that were used for decoration. - Original Message - From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Lack of thread in extant garments On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio wrote: It may not have been linen but a precious metal thread and it may have been removed. Not sure how they could test for it though. I have never heard of any instances in which precious metal thread is used for structural seams. Even in embroidery, precious metal thread is typically couched (laid on top of the fabric and held down with stitching of a non-metal thread), as the act of repeatedly passing the metal thread through fabric tends to strip the metal wrapping off the thread core. My knowledge is limited, and strictly medieval in any case. I'd be curious whether anyone knows of examples of metal thread used for seams. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lack of thread in extant garments
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Chiara Francesca wrote: Button holes, that is what I was referring to more than seams. I totally misread that post then. I thought she was talking about the button holes. :( Yes, that would make a difference! I am certain that she could speak to this so much better than I about the removal of precious metal threads that were used for decoration. From what I've read, the usual way of removing metal threads was actually to remove everything *but* the metal, by burning the item and retrieving the metal from the ashes. Countless embroidered garments, accessories, and furnishings have been burnt over the centuries by people seeking to reclaim the gold from the threads. (This is mentioned in passing in an article in the upcoming Medieval Clothing Textiles 3, about vestments embroidered in Opus Anglicanum style, which involved much laid gold.) --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
