Well I'm enormously grateful to Niklas for fixing those two things. Simon
was right that people are very supportive around here.
Even though I've been advised against WASH already, it seems important to
fix that stuff because it's a liability to Haskell to have broken code
kicking around where
I think you missed my point.
My point was to show that what you understand as backward
compatibility here is totally delivered by Haskell and its environment,
and how easy it is to be conservative (where keeping it running as
it is is only a matter of renaming a few imports).
it seems important
You might want to check out
FPCompletehttps://www.fpcomplete.com/page/about-us,
if you haven't already. They're far more focused on making it easy for
organizations to adopt Haskell than the community can be. As they say: Where
the open-source process is not sufficient to meet commercial adoption
What pray tell are those missing pieces? Aren't they mostly building a
browser based ide plus doing training courses ?
On May 4, 2013 1:42 PM, Ben Doyle benjamin.peter.do...@gmail.com wrote:
You might want to check out
FPCompletehttps://www.fpcomplete.com/page/about-us,
if you haven't
What pray tell are those missing pieces? Aren't they mostly building a
browser based ide plus doing training courses ?
Sure, and I believe they plan to have that browser-based IDE talk to a
virtual server, with a compiler and set of libraries they maintain. That'd
solve Adrian's problems, no?
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:
May I venture a guess that you never tried to manage a 5-10 million line
project?
I build a project a couple orders of magnitude bigger than that dozens of
times every day. Similar stories are not uncommon among
...@haskell.org] On Behalf Of Gregory Collins
Sent: 03 May 2013 08:27
To: Adrian May
Cc: Haskell Cafe
Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.commailto:adrian.alexander@gmail.com wrote:
May I venture a guess that you
you've let a 5-10 million line project spiral out of control without
putting the necessary software engineering infrastructure and controls in
place ... This issue you're having reflects a lot more strongly on your
technical culture than it does on any instability in GHC.
I can't dictate
Cafe
*Subject:* Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility
** **
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com
wrote:
May I venture a guess that you never tried to manage a 5-10 million line
project?
** **
I build a project a couple orders
Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com wrote:
I really don't know why somebody can't make a simple and well
intentioned point without getting attacked by people who feel
threatened over every little thing.
It's because we're failing to see the problem. I mean, if you can
pinpoint the
Raphael Gaschignard dasur...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm pretty sure most of us have experienced some issue with
dependencies breaking , and its probably the most frustrating problem
we can have have in any language. It's hard not to take this all a bit
personally. Maybe if we think more about how
How about this: can you guys give me a detailed example of a justified
deprecation: one so extremely obviously called for that even I would agree.
I just want to understand the kind of logic that's applied over these
things.
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Isn't this a problem of timescale?
Nothing can be backward compatible for ever (or at least nothing that
is being developed or maintained)
There will be, in the life of non-trival length project, change.
We rely (and I mean rely) on Haskell s/w that was written over 10 years ago -
we accept
Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com wrote:
How about this: can you guys give me a detailed example of a justified
deprecation: one so extremely obviously called for that even I would
agree. I just want to understand the kind of logic that's applied over
these things.
Changes already
Neil Davies semanticphilosop...@gmail.com wrote:
Isn't this a problem of timescale?
Nothing can be backward compatible for ever (or at least nothing that
is being developed or maintained)
I was referring to the Dependency Hell. I don't consider breaking
changes a problem.
Greets,
Ertugrul
Changes already made in the base library or in one of the platform
libraries:
So could you pick the most unassailable and tell me more about it please?
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
Ertugrul Söylemez wrote:
Often demanded changes that may or may not happen in the future:
* base: Make Functor a superclass of Monad. One of the two most
commonly demanded change to the base library. Will break lots and
lots of code. Reason: Would greatly simplify a lot of
On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 01:23:55PM +0300, Guy wrote:
That's what I thought of when I saw the original complaint - GHC is
too backwards compatible! There's far too much boilerplate because
of the Functor = Applicative = Monad mess. Float/Double being
Enums is ridiculous. None of this gets fixed
PS The proposal to fix Functor = Applicative = Monad has patches
attached for GHC and base, but the backwards compatibility bogeyman always
seems to trump something that will break a lot of code.
I think that should be fixed as well, but it would be tantamount to a new
language.
I guess
Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com wrote:
Changes already made in the base library or in one of the platform
libraries:
So could you pick the most unassailable and tell me more about it
please?
I'll just pick a random example: Eq and Show are no longer superclasses
of Num. I'm
Dependency breakage is certainly an unavoidable problem. However, I think
Haskell is also in a much better position for having a technical solution
to the frustration of breakages.
Barring issues with changing datatypes / class instances, we can already
express many of the API changes you'd want
On 3 May 2013 18:56, Ertugrul Söylemez e...@ertes.de wrote:
Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com wrote:
Changes already made in the base library or in one of the platform
libraries:
So could you pick the most unassailable and tell me more about it
please?
I'll just pick a
I'd also like to see these two. It occurs to me there may be language
tweak that could reduce breakage and add some convenience in both cases.
It would not surprise me at all if this has been thought of, examined, and
discarded, but I don't have time to dig so I'll just lay it out quickly,
and if
On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 09:34:21PM +0800, Adrian May wrote:
I never doubted that people add new stuff for valid reasons. What I'm
interested in is whether or not it could have been done without breaking
anything. But having thought about it for a while, I'm tending to think
that version
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:
On 3 May 2013 18:56, Ertugrul Söylemez e...@ertes.de wrote:
Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com wrote:
Changes already made in the base library or in one of the platform
libraries:
So could you
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:
How about this: can you guys give me a detailed example of a justified
deprecation: one so extremely obviously called for that even I would agree.
I just want to understand the kind of logic that's applied over
Barring issues with changing datatypes / class instances, we can already
express many of the API changes you'd want to make to some library [1].
Now, no one actually does what this proposal suggests - it's a lot of
work, and it doesn't work in general. However, the fact that Haskell makes
Hi,
On 3 May 2013 11:43, Tobias Dammers tdamm...@gmail.com wrote:
PS The proposal to fix Functor = Applicative = Monad has patches
attached for GHC and base, but the backwards compatibility bogeyman
always seems to trump something that will break a lot of code.
This kind of breaks
David Thomas wrote:
I'd also like to see these two. It occurs to me there may be language tweak
that could reduce breakage and add some
convenience in both cases. It would not surprise me at all if this has been
thought of, examined, and discarded, but I
don't have time to dig so I'll just
That's approximately what I was describing, yes. Thanks!
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Guy guytsalmave...@yahoo.com wrote:
David Thomas wrote:
I'd also like to see these two. It occurs to me there may be language
tweak that could reduce breakage and add some
convenience in both cases.
I'm having a bit of trouble getting my brain around that, but if anybody
cares about attracting new users, that might be relevant in itself. Perhaps
I could be seen as an example of your swing-state. I'm no Haskell expert
but I'd like to push it if I could cos I'm so sick of seeing huge codebases
That's approximately what I was describing, yes. Thanks!
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Guy guytsalmave...@yahoo.com wrote:
David Thomas wrote:
I'd also like to see these two. It occurs to me there may be language
tweak that could reduce breakage and add some
convenience in both cases.
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Guy guytsalmave...@yahoo.com wrote:
http://hackage.haskell.org/**trac/ghc/wiki/**DefaultSuperclassInstanceshttp://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/DefaultSuperclassInstances
I'm surprised that the various superclass proposals haven't got more
attention,
On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 03:35:08PM +0100, Ozgur Akgun wrote:
Hi,
On 3 May 2013 11:43, Tobias Dammers tdamm...@gmail.com wrote:
PS The proposal to fix Functor = Applicative = Monad has patches
attached for GHC and base, but the backwards compatibility bogeyman
always seems to trump
While I certainly enjoy the discussion, how about addressing one of the
original problems:
On 02/05/13 13:27, Adrian May wrote:
I just tried to use Flippi. It broke because of the syntax change so I
tried WASH. I couldn't even install it because of the syntax change.
I just fixed that in
Tantamount to a new language to fix a minor detail in a typeclass
hierarchy? That is just histrionic. *No* language is that stable.
Scala makes dozens of changes like that between *minor* versions, and while
I hardly hold up their development practices as the best in the industry it
is still
So basically it boiled down drop the haskell98 package dependency and use
the new exception system, and import the right things to avoid the use of
the no longer exported Prelude catch?
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me wrote:
While I certainly enjoy the discussion,
On 05/03/2013 06:44 PM, Niklas Hambüchen wrote:
While I certainly enjoy the discussion, how about addressing one of the
original problems:
On 02/05/13 13:27, Adrian May wrote:
I just tried to use Flippi. It broke because of the syntax change so I
tried WASH. I couldn't even install it
On 05/03/2013 06:49 PM, Edward Kmett wrote:
Tantamount to a new language to fix a minor detail in a typeclass
hierarchy? That is just histrionic. *No* language is that stable.
Scala makes dozens of changes like that between *minor* versions, and while
I hardly hold up their development
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:
Is anybody in the Haskell community still interested in attracting new
users? If so I suggest you go play with Ruby on Rails. Then you'll know
what it's like to approach a complex and unfamiliar system where
On 3 May 2013 09:44, Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me wrote:
While I certainly enjoy the discussion, how about addressing one of the
original problems:
On 02/05/13 13:27, Adrian May wrote:
I just tried to use Flippi. It broke because of the syntax change so I
tried WASH. I couldn't even install
On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 10:40 -0700, Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
On 3 May 2013 09:44, Niklas Hambüchen m...@nh2.me wrote:
While I certainly enjoy the discussion, how about addressing one of the
original problems:
On 02/05/13 13:27, Adrian May wrote:
I just tried to use Flippi. It broke because
On 04/05/13 01:52, Nicolas Trangez wrote:
On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 10:40 -0700, Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
Given the apparent simplicity of the changes needed to keep one's
Haskell code up to snuff and the strong typing inherent in Haskell
code, would it not be possible to create something similar? If
All right, here you go: https://github.com/nh2/WashNGo
https://github.com/nh2/WashNGo/commit/08010e7404219470a827f3e4172004f9d2aedc29
Took me around 75 minutes.
Think about it a bit:
I just ported thirty thousand lines of code that I have never seen
before and that has bit-rotted for over six
Hello, everyone,
I was just in the process of trying to get Haskell 7.6 installed. First
I surveyed all the current OSes that seemed to support it. FreeBSD 9.1
seemed like a good candidate. However, FreeBSD 9.1 has many practical
problems of its own. So far, I have 7.4 installed, but not
Adrian May adrian.alexander.may at gmail.com writes:
this decision to change the default syntax in GHC7
what decision? what syntax? here's the release notes (7 vs. 6)
http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.0.1/html/users_guide/release-7-0-1.html
I guess you are referring to hierarchical module
Byron Hale byron.hale at einfo.com writes:
I was just in the process of trying to get Haskell 7.6 installed.
You cannot install Haskell 7.6. Haskell is a language.
You can install a language implementation (compiler/interpreter).
There may be several. You can also install a set of
Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com wrote:
Please don't interpret this as a rant: I'm just feeling a bit
disappointed about probably having to give up on Haskell.
[rant that update broke stuff]
Well, it is a rant, so you can just as well concede it. =)
The Haskell community and its
Hi Ertugrul,
Well, it is a rant, so you can just as well concede it. =)
By my standards that was a lullaby ;-)
Everything you said is correct. Just like everything I said.
The best policy lies between the two extremes. Your extreme would be fine
if Haskell presented itself as a purely
Hello.
On 2 May 2013 14:33, Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Ertugrul,
Well, it is a rant, so you can just as well concede it. =)
By my standards that was a lullaby ;-)
Everything you said is correct. Just like everything I said.
The best policy lies between the two
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Ertugrul Söylemez e...@ertes.de wrote:
To express this question in a broader context: Are you leaving a broken
tool and replacing it with a new shiny one?
So I read the original post, and it really wasn't clear to me what exact
changes were causing the
Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com wrote:
[...] If you'd rather see more using Haskell, I strongly suggest you
get a grip on what real companies actually have to worry about. It
ain't mathematical rigour. Backward compatibility is a big chunk of
it.
I'm not saying that you are wrong,
John Lato jwl...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't think there's anything wrong with moving at a fast pace, nor
do I think backwards compatibility should be maintained in perpetuity.
I think this statement pretty much covers the mindset of the Haskell
community and also explains the higher breakage
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:
Let's face it: this decision to change the default syntax in GHC7 means
that right now Haskell looks about as stable as Ruby on Rails.
I just tried to use Flippi. It broke because of the syntax change so I
tried
So WASH is ancient history. OK, lets forget it.
How about the Haskell Platform? Is that ancient history? Certainly not: it
doesn't compile on anything but the very newest GHC. Not 7.4.1 but 7.4.2.
Now that's rapid maintenance, but it's still version hell because you've
got to have that compiler
If you are actively using something then keep it up to date, encourage
someone to keep it up to date, pay someone to keep it up to date, or
migrate off of it. If you try building with a fresh set of packages every
so often, you can catch breaking changes early and deal with them when it's
On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 09:26:15PM +0800, Adrian May wrote:
How about the Haskell Platform? Is that ancient history? Certainly not: it
doesn't compile on anything but the very newest GHC. Not 7.4.1 but 7.4.2.
I'm uninformed in such matters, but from
If you are actively using something then keep it up to date, encourage
someone to keep it up to date, pay someone to keep it up to date, or
migrate off of it. If you try building with a fresh set of packages every
so often, you can catch breaking changes early and deal with them when it's
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:26 AM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:
How about the Haskell Platform? Is that ancient history? Certainly not: it
doesn't compile on anything but the very newest GHC.
I think you're missing the point of the platform! It is an explicit set of
versions,
I think you're missing the point of the platform!
I suppose I did miss the point of the platform: I was trying to build it,
which requires at least part of the platform. As I say, the reason I was
trying to build it was that I wrongly blamed the ubuntu package for WASH
not working. But that
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:
I think you're missing the point of the platform!
I suppose I did miss the point of the platform: I was trying to build it,
which requires at least part of the
Having to build it already indicates that
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:
I suppose I did miss the point of the platform: I was trying to build it,
which requires at least part of the platform.
This is not for the faint of heart. Like *ALL* language distributions I
know (C++ included),
On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 10:36:18PM +0800, Adrian May wrote:
Please would somebody explain to me what getPackageId did to incriminate
itself?
What's getPackageId? It does not appear in the WASH source.
Tom
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
What's getPackageId? It does not appear in the WASH source.
It's in Setup.lhs, in WashNGo.
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 11:10:33PM +0800, Adrian May wrote:
What's getPackageId? It does not appear in the WASH source.
It's in Setup.lhs, in WashNGo.
Which source of WashNGo are you using? It doesn't appear in either of these
versions:
http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo-2.12
Which source of WashNGo are you using? It doesn't appear in either of
these
versions:
http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo-2.12
http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo-2.12.0.1
http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~thiemann/WASH/WashNGo-2.12.tgz
On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 11:23:12PM +0800, Adrian May wrote:
Which source of WashNGo are you using? It doesn't appear in either of
these
versions:
http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo-2.12
http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo-2.12.0.1
On 3 May 2013 01:04, Brandon Allbery allber...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com
wrote:
I think you're missing the point of the platform!
I suppose I did miss the point of the platform: I was trying to build it,
which requires at
Adrian May adrian.alexander@gmail.com wrote:
I attached the tarball. Don't say you got it from me, OK.
That's a weird thing to demand in a public mailing list with public
search-engine-locatable archives. =)
Greets,
Ertugrul
--
Not to be or to be and (not to be or to be and (not to be
On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 11:35:27PM +0800, Adrian May wrote:
I get a 403 FORBIDDEN on that. How did you get it?
I guess you just gotta know the right people ;-)
I attached the tarball. Don't say you got it from me, OK.
That tarball still doesn't contain the string getPackageId.
You're
Hi Adrian
I don't want to argue against your rant for the sake of it, but
Haskell is a fairly conservative language. The Glasgow Haskell
Compiler supports it's own dialect Glasgow Haskell which is fast
moving, but the developers of GHC do work hard to maintain
compatibility with standard Haskell
@Adrian May if you want that much backward compatibility you probably need
to move to an operating system that suports it.
NixOS, already mentioned by another commentator, would be
my recommendation if you really need the backward compatibility I just
finished compiling both Flippi and WashNGo
I'm sorry: it was showPackageId. And the tarball came from this page:
http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~thiemann/WASH/ which certainly isn't
secret to Gooliath: I got it by searching for haskell cgi html. I don't
know why you can't download it.
Anyway, I've noted your opinions but today I
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:26 AM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:
So WASH is ancient history. OK, lets forget it.
How about the Haskell Platform? Is that ancient history? Certainly not: it
doesn't compile on anything but the very newest GHC. Not 7.4.1 but 7.4.2.
GHC is up to
Emphatic agreement on this point.
Likewise, the strong type system and the often helpful type error messages
make it really easy to update code to work with more modern libs!
-Carter
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:39 AM, David Thomas davidleotho...@gmail.comwrote:
If you are actively using
Now that's rapid maintenance, but it's still version hell because you've
got to have that compiler installed first (even though HP is supposed to be
a way to acquire haskell) and you probably haven't. You've probably got the
one from the linux package which hasn't been maintained since,
Also, the Haskell Platform ./configure step checks which version of GHC
you have installed, and requires you to pass the option --enable-*
unsupported*-*ghc*-version in order to compile it with anything other
than GHC 7.4.2.
Did you try an unsupported version? And now you're complaining?
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:
Also, the Haskell Platform ./configure step checks which version of GHC
you have installed, and requires you to pass the option --enable-*
unsupported*-*ghc*-version in order to compile it with anything other
Yes, I try it out sometimes. And if it works, great. If not, too bad,
I'll wait until the next Haskell Platform. I don't whine about it in
public.
May I venture a guess that you never tried to manage a 5-10 million line
project?
That's what I do. I'm not a programmer, I'm a manager. I
79 matches
Mail list logo
