Re: [Haskell-cafe] Are there major inefficiencies in Haskell compared to OCaml?
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Casey Hawthorne cas...@istar.ca wrote: Are there major inefficiencies in Haskell compared to OCaml? If so, can something be done about them? There are definitely some gotchas when it comes to performance, mostly in the realm of inadvertent space leaks and such. But that's just it, they are gotchas. A new haskeller will no doubt encounter them, but they are generally simple to fix. When Haskell and Ocaml are coded by their respective experts, I would, in general, trust Haskell to be faster. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Parsec for C or C++
There is language.c http://www.sivity.net/projects/language.c/ http://hackage.haskell.org/package/language-c From a parsing standpoint, C++ is a massive departure from C. Good luck though. On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Roy Lowrance roy.lowra...@gmail.comwrote: I am working on a research language that is a variant of C. I'd like to use Parsec as the parser. Is there an existing Parsec parser for C or C++ (or Java) that could serve as a starting point? Thanks, Roy ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents, and the oceans was not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge. - Daniel J. Boorstin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Parsec for C or C++
I too have a looming spectre of a C++ analysis project, one of the goals of the project is to be able to efficiently process huge volumes (read GBs) of code. Given the current benchmarks of language.c compared to the g++ front end. I was thinking of using an existing C++ parser written in C++, probably Elsa[1]. Then use haskell to analyze the resulting AST. [1] http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:7z7wl7oiy70J:www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~smcpeak/elkhound/sources/elsa/+elsa+c%2B%2Bcd=1hl=enct=clnkgl=usclient=firefox-a The link seems to be dead at the moment. On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Rick R rick.richard...@gmail.com wrote: There is language.c http://www.sivity.net/projects/language.c/ http://hackage.haskell.org/package/language-c From a parsing standpoint, C++ is a massive departure from C. Good luck though. On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Roy Lowrance roy.lowra...@gmail.comwrote: I am working on a research language that is a variant of C. I'd like to use Parsec as the parser. Is there an existing Parsec parser for C or C++ (or Java) that could serve as a starting point? Thanks, Roy ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents, and the oceans was not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge. - Daniel J. Boorstin -- The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents, and the oceans was not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge. - Daniel J. Boorstin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Leaner Haskell.org frontpage
I think it would be best if the page were targeted towards newcomers, and not as a jump point for resources. Such a jump page is useful, but not as a homepage. Perhaps haskell.org/linkswould be a better place for such a thing. As an aside, in the current homepage, the Haskell description is outweighed by the link menu on the left. IMO the reader's eyes should move from the title, to the description, then either down or left. Currently my attention is split evenly between the link menu and the title/description, which results in confusion. On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: ttencate: Are there any kind of hard statistics and analytics that we can base this discussion upon? There is always room for improvement, but stumbling around in the dark making blind guesses may not be the best way to go. Although I personally feel that Lenny's proposed page is an improvement, statistics could tell us what actual people actually use the site for. FWIW, the current layout is actually based on previous analysis of Popular Pages a few years ago, so that we have O(1) access to key resources. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents, and the oceans was not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge. - Daniel J. Boorstin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Leaner Haskell.org frontpage
IMO, causing a segfault in the interpreter is more than just a DOS vulnerability :) On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Derek Elkins derek.a.elk...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jason Dagitda...@codersbase.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Thomas ten Cate ttenc...@gmail.com wrote: By the way, the most valuable pixels, right at the top of the page, are wasted on wiki stuff. Compare http://www.haskell.org/ with, for example, http://www.ruby-lang.org/ http://python.org/ The thing I like the most from the ruby page is the top box of content where it starts describing ruby with a Read more... link adjacent to a code snippet. Because I doubt anyone will agree on *the one* best code snippet to show people, I think there should/could be a pool of fun snippets and loading the page picks one at random. I have no idea if the wiki engine supports this. I also like the strip of links at the top with things like, Download, Community, and so on. Something I think the Haskell page does much better than the other two, is the listing of events and hackage updates. Both of those sections feel inviting to me. It makes me curious and I want to explore. The python page looks at least as cluttered as the haskell page. Neither the haskell page or the python page have the same look and feel of the ruby page. I think the shaded/gradient backgrounds actually add a lot to the visual experience. I also like that the boxes have a different bg color for the box title and the box contents. I also like the use of icons on the ruby page. The Download Ruby link/box with the download icon is very inviting. I just want to download it, even if I'm not going to use ruby! Perhaps we could have a contest similar to the logo contest but for homepage asthetics redesign. I think the content on the haskell page is great, but the visual style of the presentation could be improved considerably. If, like the consensus seems to be, the page should be made more friendly to beginners (who are unlikely to want to contribute to the wiki right away), then this should be moved elsewhere, or at the very least made smaller and less obtrusive. Optimizing for newcomers seems wise. Jason This is what I see when visiting the Ruby page: DoS vulnerability in BigDecimal ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents, and the oceans was not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge. - Daniel J. Boorstin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] ORM for haskell?
It has to do with treating groups of records from a table like an object.
You have the object Employee, which consists of rows from the Person table,
the Account table and the Building table.
When you instantiate the object. if you don't ask to view the Employee's
building information, it doesn't bother to retrieve it.
In the case you mention, the data hasn't yet been loaded, and even if it
were, it can be loaded with traditional transactional semantics (read only,
read with possible write, write, etc)
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Daniel Peebles pumpkin...@gmail.comwrote:
I don't have a good answer to your question, but I'm curious of how
lazy loading of SQL-based records would work. It seems like having
another user of the database modify your record before you've loaded
it all could lead to an inconsistent record (assuming you've already
loaded and memoized some fields and not others).
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Marc Webermarco-owe...@gmx.de wrote:
Some time ago I stumbled upon SQLAlchemy which is a great ORM wrapper
library for python. It has a nice syntax I'd like to see in a haskell
library as well.
SQLAlchemy already provides some lazy features such as loading subitems
on access etc.
All haskell SQL libraries I know only let you run SQL statements but not
much more. To start real business you no longer want to write many SQL
commands.
Example why it matters:
schools - 1:n - teachers - 1:n - pupils
If you want to list all schools which have a pupil with age 3 you'd
write an sql query like this:
SELECT dictinct * FROM schools as s JOIN teachers t ON (t.school_id =
s.id) JOIN pupils as p ON (p.teacher_id = t.id) WHERE p.age 3
in SQLAlchemy it looks like this:
session.query(School).join(School.teachers).join(Teacher.pupils).filter(Pupil.age
3).all()
difference? Because SQLAlchemy knows about the relations you don't have
to remember alias names. So there is no chance to get that wrong.
Another example: Updating the age of a pupil:
row = SELECT * FROM pupils where age = 13;
UPDATE pupils SET age = 14 WHERE id = the id you got above
p = session.query(Pupil).filter(Pupil.age==13).one().age=14
session.commit()
difference?
You don't have to care about ids. you just assign a new value and tell
the engine that it should commit.
So again less chances to get something wrong.
What about trees (eg web site navigation)
id | title| parent_id
1 | top | null
2 | submenu | 1
3 | submenu2 | 1
should result in
top
- submenu
- submenu2
using SQLAlchemy you can just do
parent = session.query('nodes').filter(Node.id = 1)
def print(node):
print node.title
print node.subnodes # this will run a subquery automatically for you
returning submenu{,2}
Again no sql. No chance to get something wrong?
You can skim the manual to get a better idea how SQLAlchemy works
http://www.sqlalchemy.org/docs/05/sqlalchemy_0_5_5.pdf
I have to admit that I haven't used SQLAlchemy in a real project yet.
However I can imagine doing so. Comparing this to what we have on
hackage I'd say some work has to be done to get close to SQLAlchemy.
The backend doesn't have to be a relational database. However I'd like
to use this kind of abstraction in haskell.
Is there anyone interested in helping building a library which
a) let's you define kind of model of you data
b) let's you store you model in any backend (maybe a relational
database)
c) does static checking of your queries at compilation time?
Right now I'd say the best way to go is define the model in the
application and not get the scheme from an existing database because
there is not way to store all scheme details within a relational model.
I think SQLAlchemy does it right by providing a way to define the model
in python.
Of course haskell doesn't have objects to store. But GADTs could be
stored (data Foo = ...)
So are there any volunteers who are interested in helping writing this
kind of storage solution for haskell which could be used in real world
business apps?
Maybe this does already exist and I've missed it?
Marc Weber
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell on the iPhone
There seems to be quite a bit more interest now in supporting platforms other than win/*nix on x86 these days*. Maybe now there will be sufficient motivation to make the fundamental changes required. Caveat: I have absolutely no idea of the scope or complexity of said changes. I will look through the LambdaVM code (and iPwn when available) to get an idea. Perhaps we can devote a section of Haskell Wiki to generalizing Haskell for multiple targets? The industry has been clamoring for a unified solution to all of the mobile platforms out there. If Haskell can provide that, it would be a huge win for its popularity. * Thanks primarily to the iPhone and Android systems. I think currently iPhone is swaying the most votes but Android is due to be on a dozen phones and possibly even a netbook. (I have heard two announcements and one cancellation with regards to the netbooks). On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:34 AM, John A. De Goes j...@n-brain.net wrote: I have strong interest in Haskell on the JVM. Not for Android, however. Seems like every time this topic comes up, the consensus is that it's not easy to support new targets with GHC, but that work is underway to make such developments easier. Regards, John A. De Goes N-Brain, Inc. The Evolution of Collaboration http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101 On Jun 22, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Ryan Trinkle wrote: Rick, I know some work has been done on JVM - iirc, Don Stewart did some work back in the day, www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~pls/thesis/dons-thesis.ps.gzhttp://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/%7Epls/thesis/dons-thesis.ps.gz, but I'm not sure how comprehensive it is. Is anyone else interested in JVM-based Haskell targets? Ryan On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 20:42, Rick R rick.richard...@gmail.com wrote: This is definitely good news! So... who's doing the Android/JVM target? ;) On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Daniel Peebles pumpkin...@gmail.comwrote: How exciting! I fully support the creation of a new mailing list about iphone+haskell :) On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Ryan Trinkleryant5...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Haskellers, Recently, there's been a groundswell of activity in the Haskell community regarding the Haskell's use in developing iPhone games. The iPhone is a powerful, innovative platform (with a great monetization scheme, to boot), and it's not surprising that many of us would want to develop apps for it in our favorite language. I am proud to announce today that my company, iPwn Studios Inc., is currently preparing to release an open source patch to GHC that allows it to output binaries for iPhone OS. The patch will be released under a BSD license as soon as possible and hopefully integrated into the GHC main-line in the near future. As the first (to my knowledge) Haskell-based game studio, iPwn Studios is committed to giving back to the Haskell community through open source - contributing to a rising tide that lifts us all. I would like to take this opportunity to propose the creation of a haskell-iphone mailing list, so that all Haskellers working with the iPhone - whether for profit or for pleasure - can come together to make Haskell a force to be reckoned with in the burgeoning iPhone App marketplace. Best wishes, Ryan Trinkle President, iPwn Studios Inc. P.S.: If you wish to be involved in the preparation of the GHC patch or in the creation of iPwn Studios' first game, don't hesitate to contact me by email (ryant5...@gmail.com), AIM (RyanT5000), or IRC (RyanT5000 on irc.freenode.net). ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents, and the oceans was not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge. - Daniel J. Boorstin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents, and the oceans was not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge. - Daniel J. Boorstin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Facebook puzzles allow for GHC solutions
They are the creators of Thrift which they created for internal use and then published/open-sourced.. It is a multi-language RPC API/Service. When it went public, one of the languages interfaces they provided was Haskell. So yes. They use Haskell somewhere inside Facebook. On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 11:20 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting: http://www.facebook.com/careers/puzzles.php So they use Haskell at Facebook? Dave ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents, and the oceans was not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge. - Daniel J. Boorstin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] compilation to C, not via-C
You may wish to look at Timber. It is a Haskell descendant designed for embedded systems. Its current default output is C which is then compiled. It is a very young language, but given the current list of use cases, I am sure that it will never abandon it's C output model, because most people in embedded disciplines seem to prefer it. It does, like Haskell, include a runtime, but it is small, and light. Since it is targetted towards embedded systems the garbage collector is one that can be interacted with to guarantee response times on the microsecond level. http://timber-lang.org/ I too write software for time critical applications and multiple platforms (such as the iPhone). I surveyed over a dozen compilers in multiple languages, and my search ended with Timber. As I mentioned, it is very young, it has very little standard library to speak of, but it has strong possibilities. On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Bulat Ziganshin bulat.zigans...@gmail.comwrote: Hello Sam, Friday, April 24, 2009, 9:09:43 PM, you wrote: well, GHC generates .o files. so you may solve some of your questions. if you can absolutely ignore performance, you can use so-called non-registerized compilation what generates ansi-compatible C code most Haskell libs are written for ghc, so for other compilers you will need to write almost self-contained code I need a list of .c and .h files as an end result of the Haskell compilation stage. I expect these c files will need to include Haskell runtime C code to operate, and therefore have some dependencies in order to compile and link. Afaict, GHC as it stands does not allow me to do this, even though it presumably generates C in the process of compiling binary objects. Actually having C source as an end result is critical as I need control over exactly how the source is compiled and linked. For example: - I need to compile to different targets: either a static C lib, exe, dll or C++ lib. - I need to support multiple compilers. - I might want to produce a custom runtime. In short, I'd like to use Haskell as a code-generator. I can't see that this would be unachievable, particularly given it's generating C already. Have I missed something? Cheers, Sam -Original Message- From: Bulat Ziganshin [mailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com] Sent: 24 April 2009 17:53 To: Sam Martin Cc: haskell-cafe@haskell.org Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] compilation to C, not via-C Hello Sam, Friday, April 24, 2009, 8:36:50 PM, you wrote: I work in Games middleware, and am very interested in looking at how Haskell could help us. We basically sell C++ libraries. I would like to be able to write some areas of our libraries in Haskell, compile the Haskell to C and incorporate that code into a C++ library. well, you can intercept these files. once i wrote simple 4-line haskell utility (it may be 20 lines of C++ or so) and compiled it down to C. results was 300 lines or so which it's impossible to understand so, if you just need haskell-C++ interaction, you may look into using FFI [1,2]. if you believe that you can compile some java/ruby/haskellwhatever code down to C++ and incorporate it into your function - sorry, they all have too different computing model btw, my own program [3] goes this way - i combine fast C++ and complex Haskell code via FFI/dll to produce fast, feature-rich application [1] http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Using_the_FFI [2] http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FFI_cook_book [3] http://freearc.org -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[4]: [Haskell-cafe] compilation to C, not via-C
I really like the idea of the region based mem management (and other GC options) in JHC. It could potentially remove the need for any runtime at all, which is nice. Two fundamental differences of Timber is that it is purely strict, and not pure functional. This makes the implementation and use of IO intensive systems slightly more straightforward IMO. Also, when I tested JHC, I couldn't get it to compile my test case. Note that I am not qualified to speak on the quality of the compiler since my Haskell skills are mediocre at best. One big advantage of JHC once it matures is that it will be able to leverage the cornucopia of haskell libs in hackage, wheras Timber will have to start pretty much from scratch. On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Bulat Ziganshin bulat.zigans...@gmail.comwrote: Hello Rick, Friday, April 24, 2009, 10:12:42 PM, you wrote: what you think about JHC? it seems that Timber is close to it You may wish to look at Timber. It is a Haskell descendant designed for embedded systems. Its current default output is C which is then compiled. It is a very young language, but given the current list of use cases, I am sure that it will never abandon it's C output model, because most people in embedded disciplines seem to prefer it. It does, like Haskell, include a runtime, but it is small, and light. Since it is targetted towards embedded systems the garbage collector is one that can be interacted with to guarantee response times on the microsecond level. http://timber-lang.org/ I too write software for time critical applications and multiple platforms (such as the iPhone). I surveyed over a dozen compilers in multiple languages, and my search ended with Timber. As I mentioned, it is very young, it has very little standard library to speak of, but it has strong possibilities. On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Bulat Ziganshin bulat.zigans...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Sam, Friday, April 24, 2009, 9:09:43 PM, you wrote: well, GHC generates .o files. so you may solve some of your questions. if you can absolutely ignore performance, you can use so-called non-registerized compilation what generates ansi-compatible C code most Haskell libs are written for ghc, so for other compilers you will need to write almost self-contained code I need a list of .c and .h files as an end result of the Haskell compilation stage. I expect these c files will need to include Haskell runtime C code to operate, and therefore have some dependencies in order to compile and link. Afaict, GHC as it stands does not allow me to do this, even though it presumably generates C in the process of compiling binary objects. Actually having C source as an end result is critical as I need control over exactly how the source is compiled and linked. For example: - I need to compile to different targets: either a static C lib, exe, dll or C++ lib. - I need to support multiple compilers. - I might want to produce a custom runtime. In short, I'd like to use Haskell as a code-generator. I can't see that this would be unachievable, particularly given it's generating C already. Have I missed something? Cheers, Sam -Original Message- From: Bulat Ziganshin [mailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com] Sent: 24 April 2009 17:53 To: Sam Martin Cc: haskell-cafe@haskell.org Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] compilation to C, not via-C Hello Sam, Friday, April 24, 2009, 8:36:50 PM, you wrote: I work in Games middleware, and am very interested in looking at how Haskell could help us. We basically sell C++ libraries. I would like to be able to write some areas of our libraries in Haskell, compile the Haskell to C and incorporate that code into a C++ library. well, you can intercept these files. once i wrote simple 4-line haskell utility (it may be 20 lines of C++ or so) and compiled it down to C. results was 300 lines or so which it's impossible to understand so, if you just need haskell-C++ interaction, you may look into using FFI [1,2]. if you believe that you can compile some java/ruby/haskellwhatever code down to C++ and incorporate it into your function - sorry, they all have too different computing model btw, my own program [3] goes this way - i combine fast C++ and complex Haskell code via FFI/dll to produce fast, feature-rich application [1] http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Using_the_FFI [2] http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FFI_cook_book [3] http://freearc.org -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Lazy vs correct IO [Was: A round of golf]
It depends on the underlying file control used by ghc. if it's the FILE stream pointer, some implementations suffer from a 255 file limit. If it's a standard file descriptor (open instead of fopen), then it's limited by ulimit. On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Jason Dusek jason.du...@gmail.com wrote: Oh, curses. I didn't run it with the right option. :; ulimit -a core file size (blocks, -c) 0 data seg size (kbytes, -d) 6144 file size (blocks, -f) unlimited max locked memory (kbytes, -l) unlimited max memory size (kbytes, -m) unlimited open files (-n) 256 pipe size(512 bytes, -p) 1 stack size (kbytes, -s) 8192 cpu time (seconds, -t) unlimited max user processes (-u) 266 virtual memory (kbytes, -v) unlimited So now I'm not sure why it worked on my Mac. -- Jason Dusek ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Program using 500MB RAM to process 5MB file
You could profile your app for memory usage. Then you could figure out just what function is blowing up the mem usage and figure out how to optimize it. http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/profiling-and-optimization.html 2009/4/2 lu...@die.net.au I'm relatively new to haskell so as one does, I am rewriting an existing program in haskell to help learn the language. However, it eats up all my RAM whenever I run the program. http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=3175#a3175 Obviously I'm doing something wrong, but without my magical FP pants I don't know what that might be. -- Lucas Hazel lu...@die.net.au ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Hugs on iPhone
Correct. My point was only in the case that it would need to statically link to a GPL'd lib (which I'm not sure if such a case exists) If the gcc license suddenly decided to claim compiled items as derivative works, the IT world as we know it would end. On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:06 AM, John Meacham j...@repetae.net wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 07:00:26PM -0400, Rick R wrote: The agreement doesn't specifically prohibit the use of interpreters (just those than run external code). It also doesn't say anything about machine generated code. The only thing one would have to ensure is that the dependencies of JHC are all compiled in, or statically linked. Shared libs are disallowed in any app. If it has a runtime dependency on gcc (is there such a thing?) Then you would have to statically link it and therefore couldn't sell your application. (gotta love GPL) No problem here, the gcc licence explicity states things compiled with it are not considered derivative works. And after all, Mac OS X is compiled with gcc, apple X-Code uses gcc as its compiler and I think gcc may even be the only objective C compiler out there. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hugs on iPhone
Unfortunately the developers agreement expressly forbids the use of interpreters that load and run external programs. This is probably for the simple reason that it would be almost impossible to secure, or even guarantee that it wont exceed its space and mem usage bounds required by AppStore apps. Short answer: Jailbreak and install away :) 2009/3/23 Kirk Martinez kirk.marti...@gmail.com I saw Miguel Mitrofanov ( http://www.nabble.com/Hugs-on-the-iphone-td19478992.html) successfully ported Hugs to the iPhone. I'm now wondering if anyone has tried to get Apple's blessing to put this in the App Store? It would be really great to be able to try out little Haskell ideas as the mood strikes. Of course, it's kind of essential to have an editor of some kind for more significant programs... Thanks, Kirk ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Hugs on iPhone
This is solely the reason for my interest in JHC. The agreement doesn't specifically prohibit the use of interpreters (just those than run external code). It also doesn't say anything about machine generated code. The only thing one would have to ensure is that the dependencies of JHC are all compiled in, or statically linked. Shared libs are disallowed in any app. If it has a runtime dependency on gcc (is there such a thing?) Then you would have to statically link it and therefore couldn't sell your application. (gotta love GPL) JHC also helps with another issue: There is some concern about garbage collection schemes, Apple removed their own garbage collector in the iPhone SDK and the docs mention that GC isn't allowed. But there is nothing about that in the Developer Agreement. JHC's region based memory management very closely reflects Apples own convention for using memory pools for all allocation. I speculate that this would less likely to be rejected. . There is also some discussion on both the GHC and JHC mailing list WRT this a month or two ago. I will attempt exactly this scheme later next month, will let you know how it goes. :) On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 5:45 PM, John Meacham j...@repetae.net wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 04:41:04PM -0400, Braden Shepherdson wrote: The good news is that jhc's portable C code works perfectly well -- but of course that is simply running precompiled Haskell apps and not a compiler or interpreter running on the device. Since jhc is not self-hosting (yet?) but instead is built with GHC, that's the best we can do with that approach for now. I wondered what would happen if I submitted some jhc generated C for approval, it _almost_ looks like it could have been hand written by someone with an unusual penchant for gotos and their own inscrutable hungarian notation. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Learning Haskell
I've been messing with Haskell since the Middle of January on evenings and weekends. Just now I'm getting to the point where I can construct nontrivial programs with little help from #haskell. It is by no means my most proficient language, I've been coding C++ and other languages for over 10 years. It is by far my favorite, however, and if I could do it full time I would. On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Tom.Amundsen tomamund...@gmail.comwrote: How long did it take you to become proficient in Haskell? By that, I mean - how long until you were just as comfortable with Haskell as you were with your strongest language at that time? -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Learning-Haskell-tp22673552p22673552.html Sent from the Haskell - Haskell-Cafe mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo write-in candidate
but the rest of it looks like a fat lady bending over. 2009/3/21 Henning Thielemann lemm...@henning-thielemann.de On Fri, 20 Mar 2009, Jon Fairbairn wrote: ::Haskell See the lamp in logo 33 at http://www.haskell.org/logos/poll.html ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Logo write-in candidate
Actually, yea. This is pretty nice. If either #9, #49 or #50 make it to the top of the list, can we ensure that this will be selectable as a variant? (If not, we can at least put it on cafe press and I'd buy the t-shirt :) ) 2009/3/19 Edward Kmett ekm...@gmail.com Ooh, shiny! 2009/3/19 Warren Harris warrensomeb...@gmail.com After spending a bit of time trying to decide how to vote, I ended up deciding that my favorite would be a hybrid of several of the designs (#9 #49 FalconNL, and #50 George Pollard). It's probably too late to include this in the voting, but here it is nonetheless: (My primary criterion is would I wear this t-shirt?) :-) Warren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
And we thought butterfly ballots were bad. I just went through the logo page and wrote down my favorite 20 logos in one column, and gave them a rank in the other. Then translated that into the voting list using the combo boxes (not the buttons). The total process took 20 minutes. I am on FF3 on windows and didn't notice any reordering aside the (un?)expected reordering by rank. On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Robin Green gree...@greenrd.org wrote: On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:11:54 +0100 Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: I have to agree that the UI for voting is not the best I've ever seen. On the other hand, it's pretty easy to select the few logos that you like, and push them all to the top, select the ones you'd accept, and push them up just below, and finally select the ones you absolutely don't like and push them all the way down. That at least is what I did. Did you check that code bugs hadn't reordered your votes? I am worried about this destroying the validity of the election. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
QED 2009/3/17 Daniel Schüssler anotheraddr...@gmx.de (correction of the example) (105: ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) moving down X will result in either (105: A) (106: B) (107: X ) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) or equivalently (105: ) (106: A) (107: B ) (108: X ) (109: C,D) (110: E) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Binary Parsing
I have basic beginning to a parser for the BSON spec: http://www.mongodb.org/display/DOCS/BSON It is basically a binary compressed form of JSON. The usage model should be general, but I intend to read this data over TCP. Currently my system is quite inefficient, I convert leading bytes to Int then switch based on that type that that Int represtents. I was wondering if there is a tool set that exists for this purpose. For instance, should I use Data.Binary and make my Binary instance of get and put use the BSON protocol? Or is that not correct? I also looked at Parsec.ByteString, but that seems to only have a file input mechanism, and tcp buffers may be out of its scope. Are there any other tools that I should look at? I'm sure similar things have been done before. Can anyone point me to some open, successful implementations that I could mimick? -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] STG's? [was: I want to write a compiler]
Where can I find more information on STGs? Google search doesn't bring up anything too enlightening. My curiosity was piqued by http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~gedell/ssc/index.html. Of course it doesn't indicate how these should be built or the format. On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 6:41 PM, Loup Vaillant loup.vaill...@gmail.comwrote: Thanks to the courage you all gave me, I found the strength to go on. Template instantiation seems to be the easiest path, so I decided to follow it. I think I solved the problem about primitives and FFI I though it had. Namely, how the hell do I compile primitive calls with an arbitrary number of arguments. Starting from the Tutorial of Peyton Jones and Lester, I added a new node type to help guide the order of evaluation. Basically, this Seq node takes the address of two other nodes. It pushes them both on the stack, like an application node would. (That is because I don't want a dump, but I could as well create a new stack and and push the previous one on the dump.) Note the nodes which are evaluated this way must not have a functional head normal form (primitive or supercombinator). That would leak past the beginning of the stack. When the node is finally evaluated (e.g. points to a HNF, like a boxed integer), the topmost and second topmost pointers on the stack are swapped. (or the topmost pointer of the stack and the topmost pointer of the topmost stack on the dump are swapped). With a suitable compilation scheme, that should guarantee that primitives have their arguments already evaluated. (And avoid infinite loops). Now, I just have to implement it. :-) Cheers, Loup. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] I want to write a compiler
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours Not sure if this is exactly what you want, but you could certainly fufill all of your requirements using this as a baseline. Instead of evaluating the actual statements in your eval function, you could simply render them to C. As far as FFI, if you are statically compiling to C, you can leave your variables unboxed. This would allow you to call C functions directly. Hope that helps. On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Loup Vaillant loup.vaill...@gmail.comwrote: This is a homework question. I am mainly looking for guidance or pointers. Source code, even. (Not GHC's, though, it is too complicated for me right now. The AST of STG is fine, but the rest kinda scares me.) Ideally, I would very much like to compile to C. The requirements are easily stated. My language must - be lazy by default, - support algebraic data types and case expressions (unless I can get away with encoding them as functions), - have some kind of FFI with C (I suppose it imply some support for unboxed values). There is also the first class functions thing, but lambda lifting is okay. I don't care about any kind of execution efficiency. I just want my compiler to be As Simple As Possible. Eventually, I intend to bootstrap. Then, I will start dreaming about doing better than the Mighty Simons. (I can dream, right?) I figured I would start by the back-end. I began to write 15 pathetic lines of code to start an STG machine. Needles to say, I am stuck. I don't know where to start. I am already familiar with some papers. In particular, [1] (on template instantiation), [2] and [3]. I once wrote a simple graph reducer using template instantiation (about 20 lines at most). I have chosen the STG machine because I thought i would be easier to get an FFI and case exprs out of it. Maybe I am wrong, and template instantiation is really easier. There is also the BRISK machine, and GRIN. But the paper I read were less readable to me than the three mentioned. So, If any of you can give me some pointer or guidance or advice about where to start, I would be very grateful. Loup [1] http://www.cs.otago.ac.nz/cosc459/books/pjlester.pdf [2] http://research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/Papers/spineless-tagless-gmachine.ps.gzhttp://research.microsoft.com/%7Esimonpj/Papers/spineless-tagless-gmachine.ps.gz [3] http://research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/Papers/eval-apply/index.htmhttp://research.microsoft.com/%7Esimonpj/Papers/eval-apply/index.htm ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] MapReduce reverse engineered
I agree. A distributed database could be made as usable as a standard RDBMS by offering an interface by which you supply a map/reduce pair of functions and a list (range?) of keys. This could be easily implemented with a database such as Scalaris, in which the Chord algorithm is responsible for placing and finding the data among nodes. The user would interface with any node in the distributed database, supplying a map and reduce function. It would distribute the map function to nodes of its choosing (weighted by some metrics such as idle cpu), retrieve the intermediate sets and run reduce if supplied. 2009/2/25 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com: Galchin, Maybe you are asking not only about remote execution, but also mobility of code. This is a problem that is previous to mapReduce, since mapReduce assumes that all the code (and the data) is in place in the respective nodes. In fact, the distribution of resources in order to efficiently use mapReduce is a design problem that the google people has done by hand. But my intuition says that there are a general algorithm for distribution of code, data, bandwidth and resources in general that moves around at execution time to achieve better and better performance for a given grid of nodes and for any task, for example, a mapReduce task. I would be very interesting to read something about this. I know that some efforts have been carried out the past , for example mobile haskell http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/stg/workshops/TFP/book/DuBois/duboismhaskell/cameraready.pdf which is a first step for this goal but I this has been discontinued and the source code is not available. 2009/2/25 Galchin, Vasili vigalc...@gmail.com Hello, Here is an interesting paper of Google's MapReduce reverse engineered into Haskell. I apologize if already posted . http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ralf/MapReduce/ Kind regards, Vasili ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll
I think the capabilities community including E and Coyotos/BitC have extensively addressed this topic. Coyotos is taking the correct approach for trusted voting platform. Since, even if your software is trustworthy, it can't be trusted if the OS on which it runs is suspect. However, we might have a few more rigged elections before we see any deliverables from Coyotos. On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 2:45 AM, Ketil Malde ke...@malde.org wrote: Rick R rick.richard...@gmail.com writes: I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us with an online voting solution. You know, while the recent voting scandals have been milked for all they're worth by the open source community, FP has been very quiet about it. Isn't this an application where correctness matters? How about a proof that the software never loses (or injects) votes, for instance? -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll
I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us with an online voting solution. Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand, so, in effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is certainly of interest to Haskell coders. On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin max.rab...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten an...@appsolutions.com wrote: There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections? --Max ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll
I can't comment on any quantitative side effects, but the some intangible side effects include Distrustful Populace and MaliciousDissenters. However, if ghc is run with the -XUnscrupulousPolitics flag, those can be suppressed. On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:33 PM, gregg reynolds d...@mobileink.com wrote: I.e. war, plague.famine. etc. gregg reynolds d...@mobileink.com wrote: But what about the side effects? Rick R rick.richard...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us with an online voting solution. Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand, so, in effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is certainly of interest to Haskell coders. On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin max.rab...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten an...@appsolutions.com wrote: There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections? --Max ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Amazing
I have been learning Haskell for the last two weeks and was relaying that exact benefit to my friend in attempts to convert him. I spend 3 hours getting a few functions to compile, but when they do, they just work. Every time. 2009/2/14 Peter Verswyvelen bugf...@gmail.com One of the things I liked a lot when working with C# was that as soon as my code compiled, it usually worked after an iteration of two.At least if we forget about the nasty imperative debugging that is needed after a while because of unanticipated and unchecked runtime side effects. After heaving read about Haskell and having written some small programs for the last year or so, I'm now finally writing a bigger program with it. It is not so easy yet since learning a language and trying to reach a deadline at the same time is hard :) However, it is just amazing that whenever my Haskell program compiles (which to be fair can take a while for an average Haskeller like me ;-), it just... works! I have heard rumors that this was the case, but I can really confirm it. A bit hurray for strong typing! (and if you don't like it, you can still use Dynamic and Typeable ;-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Why binding to existing widget toolkits doesn't make any sense
I haven't really thought about GUIs much in the last decade, but if one were to embark on such an endeavor, I think an appropriate starting point would be SDL with OpenGL. There would be no very little API structure to hinder the pure functional approach, and it would be portable to a wide variety of platforms. SDL includes support Linux/Win/OSX and now the iPhone. Also you'd have unofficial support for another few platforms. The 1st step would be to build a vector graphics lib for Haskell on OpenGL, but after that, perhaps much of Fruit could be fitted in. (Just a WAG, never heard of the API before now) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Why binding to existing widget toolkits doesn't make any sense
Cairo is now the graphics back end for Firefox, yes? I thought moving to Cairo resulted in a considerable rendering speedup for FF. On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Peter Verswyvelen bugf...@gmail.comwrote: I found Cairo rather slow, even on the fastest hardware. Maybe OpenVG will take off one day: http://www.khronos.org/openvg 2009/1/30 Bryan O'Sullivan b...@serpentine.com: Hi, Antony - It's good to see you active on here. It's not clear to me if the Cairo API in its current form supports vector-level clipping or constructive area geometry, [...] The Cairo clipping API is very PostScripty; you set up a path and then turn it into a clip region instead of filling it. You don't end up with a first-class value, but a manipulation of the implicit global rendering state. For CAG-style operations, http://lib2geom.sourceforge.net/ would be a better bet, but FFIing to a library written in C wouldn't necessarily be a real improvement over just writing a CAG library natively. I think it would be true to say that you can't quite get everything you would want in one easy-to-use place, then. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Web Framework
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Michaeljohn Clement m...@mjclement.comwrote: John A. De Goes wrote: ... There is very little wrong with ECMAScript if people would only learn it properly and play to its strengths instead of trying to turn it into things it is not. Treating ECMAScript as a compiler target language will be a win eventually, I expect, but not by compiling from Haskell. Haskell could certainly play a role, e.g. as an implementation language for ES-to-ES or DSL-to-ES compiler writers. ... -- Michaeljohn Clement ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe Javascript itself is such a versatile language I don't think it needs to be hidden by a DSL, but, as you mentioned an ES-to-ES wrapper, with the exception that the framework could auto generate a few helper functions on the client side. I think the optimal approach is to create a sort of generator of client applications. These applications will use XHTML for graphical structure and Javascript for logic. The haskell framework would streamline the creation of dynamic HTML and offer a fast and simple means of specifying an RPC interface from the client to the server. It would also make sense to leverage an existing set of libraries for this purpose. JQuery RPC is fantastic (as is the rest of JQuery) and, IMO, it provides enough abstraction to make Javascript tolerable for any type of programmer. Using the Client/Server paradigm, one could gain additional performance benefits from templates. Since all of their dynamic state is set an runtime via javascript, they can all be precompiled into XHTML and JS. To avoid the initial request for values after the page load, an appendix could be sent from the server with the XHTML file that automatically sets all of the dynamic values. I have been slowly building a proof of concept of these ideas using HAML as the template engine and JQuery.RPC as the communication mechanism. It's not intended to be a full framework, but a client generator that could make JSON RPC requests to any RESTful interface (sorry for the buzzwords) I'll yell when I have something to show. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
