Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-19 Thread Gregg Reynolds
2009/2/19 Luke Palmer 

> 2009/2/19 Rick R 
>
>> I think the capabilities community including E and Coyotos/BitC have
>> extensively addressed this topic. Coyotos is taking the correct approach for
>> trusted voting platform. Since, even if your software is trustworthy, it
>> can't be trusted if the OS on which it runs is suspect.
>
>
> Woah, that's a pretty interesting question!  How do you write software
> which is protected against a malicious operating system (mind -- not
> erroneous, but rather somebody detecting the software you're running and
> changing your vote).  Maybe some sort of randomized cryptographic technique,
> in which, with high probability, the OS either runs your program correctly
> or causes it to crash.
>
> It gets worse.  Even if you write your OS in Haskell, how do you know your
compiler hasn't been compromised?  Or the hardware?  The solution
necessarily involves a social component, e.g. Haskell, with the development
practices of OpenBSD (continuous re-auditing of everything including tools,
complete openness, etc.)  IOW, it'll never happen, but it might end up
better than paper ballots.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-19 Thread Gwern Branwen
2009/2/19 Luke Palmer :
> 2009/2/19 Rick R 
>>
>> I think the capabilities community including E and Coyotos/BitC have
>> extensively addressed this topic. Coyotos is taking the correct approach for
>> trusted voting platform. Since, even if your software is trustworthy, it
>> can't be trusted if the OS on which it runs is suspect.
>
> Woah, that's a pretty interesting question!  How do you write software which
> is protected against a malicious operating system (mind -- not erroneous,
> but rather somebody detecting the software you're running and changing your
> vote).  Maybe some sort of randomized cryptographic technique, in which,
> with high probability, the OS either runs your program correctly or causes
> it to crash.
> Luke

Free associating: "Static Typing for a Faulty Lambda Calculus"
http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2108

"A transient hardware fault occurs when an energetic particle strikes
a transistor, causing it to change state. These faults do not cause
permanent damage, but may result in incorrect program execution by
altering signal transfers or stored valuesThis paper defines the
first formal, type-theoretic framework for studying reliable
computation in the presence of transient faults. More specifically, it
defines lambda-zap, a lambda calculus that exhibits intermittent data
faults. In order to detect and recover from these faults, lambda-zap
programs replicate intermediate computations and use majority voting,
thereby modeling software-based fault tolerance techniques studied
extensively, but informally.
To ensure that programs maintain the proper invariants and use
lambda-zap primitives correctly, the paper defines a type system for
the language. This type system guarantees that well-typed programs can
tolerate any single data fault. To demonstrate that lambda-zap can
serve as an idealized typed intermediate language, we define a
type-preserving translation from a standard simply-typed lambda
calculus into lambda-zap."

-- 
gwern
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-19 Thread Luke Palmer
2009/2/19 Rick R 

> I think the capabilities community including E and Coyotos/BitC have
> extensively addressed this topic. Coyotos is taking the correct approach for
> trusted voting platform. Since, even if your software is trustworthy, it
> can't be trusted if the OS on which it runs is suspect.


Woah, that's a pretty interesting question!  How do you write software which
is protected against a malicious operating system (mind -- not erroneous,
but rather somebody detecting the software you're running and changing your
vote).  Maybe some sort of randomized cryptographic technique, in which,
with high probability, the OS either runs your program correctly or causes
it to crash.

Luke



> However, we might have a few more rigged elections before we see any
> deliverables from Coyotos.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 2:45 AM, Ketil Malde  wrote:
>
>> Rick R  writes:
>>
>> > I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us
>> with
>> > an online voting solution.
>>
>> You know, while the recent voting scandals have been milked for all
>> they're worth by the open source community, FP has been very quiet
>> about it.  Isn't this an application where correctness matters?  How
>> about a proof that the software never loses (or injects) votes, for
>> instance?
>>
>> -k
>> --
>> If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
>>
>
>
>
> --
> We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we
> created them.
>- A. Einstein
>
> ___
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
>
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-19 Thread Rick R
I think the capabilities community including E and Coyotos/BitC have
extensively addressed this topic. Coyotos is taking the correct approach for
trusted voting platform. Since, even if your software is trustworthy, it
can't be trusted if the OS on which it runs is suspect. However, we might
have a few more rigged elections before we see any deliverables from
Coyotos.


On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 2:45 AM, Ketil Malde  wrote:

> Rick R  writes:
>
> > I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us
> with
> > an online voting solution.
>
> You know, while the recent voting scandals have been milked for all
> they're worth by the open source community, FP has been very quiet
> about it.  Isn't this an application where correctness matters?  How
> about a proof that the software never loses (or injects) votes, for
> instance?
>
> -k
> --
> If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
>



-- 
We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we
created them.
   - A. Einstein
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-19 Thread Colin Paul Adams
> "Ketil" == Ketil Malde  writes:

Ketil> gregg reynolds  writes:
>> I.e. war, plague.famine. etc.

Ketil> No, those are quite outdated by now.  The new horsemen of
Ketil> the programming apocalypse are, of course, IO,
Ketil> MutableState, LazyMemoryLeak, and Bottom.

And what are those four horsemen revealing?
-- 
Colin Adams
Preston Lancashire
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Ketil Malde
gregg reynolds  writes:

> I.e. war, plague.famine. etc.

No, those are quite outdated by now.  The new horsemen of the
programming apocalypse are, of course, IO, MutableState,
LazyMemoryLeak, and Bottom.

-k
-- 
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Ketil Malde
Rick R  writes:

> I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us with
> an online voting solution.

You know, while the recent voting scandals have been milked for all
they're worth by the open source community, FP has been very quiet
about it.  Isn't this an application where correctness matters?  How
about a proof that the software never loses (or injects) votes, for
instance? 

-k
-- 
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread gregg reynolds
Perhaps you are a subversive functor,  hmm?  We have monadic ways of conrolling 
you, fiend!  Tellus who your natural tansformations are, or else!

Andrew Wagner  wrote:

>Help! Help! I'm being suppressed!!
>
>On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Rick R  wrote:
>
>> I can't comment on any quantitative side effects, but the some  
>> intangible side effects include Distrustful Populace and  
>> MaliciousDissenters. However, if ghc is run with the - 
>> XUnscrupulousPolitics  flag, those can be suppressed.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:33 PM, gregg reynolds   
>> wrote:
>> I.e. war, plague.famine. etc.
>>
>> gregg reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> >But what about the side effects?
>> >
>> >Rick R  wrote:
>> >
>> >>I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide  
>> us with
>> >>an online voting solution.
>> >>Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand,  
>> so, in
>> >>effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is  
>> certainly of
>> >>interest to Haskell coders.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin   
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten
>> >>>  wrote:
>> >>> > There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
>> >>>
>> >>> This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections?
>> >>>
>> >>> --Max
>> >>> ___
>> >>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> >>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>> >>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>--
>> >>We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used  
>> when we
>> >>created them.
>> >>   - A. Einstein
>> >>___
>> >>Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> >>Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>> >>http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used  
>> when we created them.
>>- A. Einstein
>> ___
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Svein Ove Aas
2009/2/18 Andrew Wagner :
> Help! Help! I'm being suppressed!!
>
Aha!
Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Andrew Wagner

Help! Help! I'm being suppressed!!

On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Rick R  wrote:

I can't comment on any quantitative side effects, but the some  
intangible side effects include Distrustful Populace and  
MaliciousDissenters. However, if ghc is run with the - 
XUnscrupulousPolitics  flag, those can be suppressed.


On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:33 PM, gregg reynolds   
wrote:

I.e. war, plague.famine. etc.

gregg reynolds  wrote:

>But what about the side effects?
>
>Rick R  wrote:
>
>>I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide  
us with

>>an online voting solution.
>>Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand,  
so, in
>>effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is  
certainly of

>>interest to Haskell coders.
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin   
wrote:

>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten
>>>  wrote:
>>> > There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
>>> >
>>> >  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
>>>
>>> This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections?
>>>
>>> --Max
>>> ___
>>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used  
when we

>>created them.
>>   - A. Einstein
>>___
>>Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>>Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>>http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe



--
We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used  
when we created them.

   - A. Einstein
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Rick R
I can't comment on any quantitative side effects, but the some intangible
side effects include Distrustful Populace and MaliciousDissenters. However,
if ghc is run with the -XUnscrupulousPolitics  flag, those can be
suppressed.

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:33 PM, gregg reynolds  wrote:

> I.e. war, plague.famine. etc.
>
> gregg reynolds  wrote:
>
> >But what about the side effects?
> >
> >Rick R  wrote:
> >
> >>I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us
> with
> >>an online voting solution.
> >>Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand, so, in
> >>effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is certainly of
> >>interest to Haskell coders.
> >>
> >>
> >>On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten
> >>>  wrote:
> >>> > There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
> >>> >
> >>> >  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
> >>>
> >>> This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections?
> >>>
> >>> --Max
> >>> ___
> >>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> >>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> >>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when
> we
> >>created them.
> >>   - A. Einstein
> >>___
> >>Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> >>Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> >>http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>



-- 
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created them.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Andrew Wagner
Sure it will. Don't worry, it uses unsafePerformIO under the hood, so it's
pretty much indestructible.

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:47 PM, gregg reynolds  wrote:

> Ok, that might protect us against the 7 plagues, so I'm not so worried
> about locusts.  But what about Java, PHP etc.  Is the monad sufficient
> protection against ultra-supernatural evil?
>
> Andrew Wagner  wrote:
>
> >Just wrap it in a ReallySafeWePromiseMonad
> >
> >2009/2/18 gregg reynolds 
> >
> >> I.e. war, plague.famine. etc.
> >>
> >> gregg reynolds  wrote:
> >>
> >> >But what about the side effects?
> >> >
> >> >Rick R  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us
> >> with
> >> >>an online voting solution.
> >> >>Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand, so,
> in
> >> >>effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is certainly
> of
> >> >>interest to Haskell coders.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin 
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten
> >> >>>  wrote:
> >> >>> > There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
> >> >>>
> >> >>> This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --Max
> >> >>> ___
> >> >>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> >> >>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> >> >>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>--
> >> >>We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used
> when
> >> we
> >> >>created them.
> >> >>   - A. Einstein
> >> >>___
> >> >>Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> >> >>Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> >> >>http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> >> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
> >>
> >>
>
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread gregg reynolds
Ok, that might protect us against the 7 plagues, so I'm not so worried about 
locusts.  But what about Java, PHP etc.  Is the monad sufficient protection 
against ultra-supernatural evil?

Andrew Wagner  wrote:

>Just wrap it in a ReallySafeWePromiseMonad
>
>2009/2/18 gregg reynolds 
>
>> I.e. war, plague.famine. etc.
>>
>> gregg reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> >But what about the side effects?
>> >
>> >Rick R  wrote:
>> >
>> >>I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us
>> with
>> >>an online voting solution.
>> >>Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand, so, in
>> >>effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is certainly of
>> >>interest to Haskell coders.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten
>> >>>  wrote:
>> >>> > There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
>> >>>
>> >>> This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections?
>> >>>
>> >>> --Max
>> >>> ___
>> >>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> >>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>> >>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>--
>> >>We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when
>> we
>> >>created them.
>> >>   - A. Einstein
>> >>___
>> >>Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> >>Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>> >>http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>
>> ___
>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>
>>
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Andrew Wagner
Just wrap it in a ReallySafeWePromiseMonad

2009/2/18 gregg reynolds 

> I.e. war, plague.famine. etc.
>
> gregg reynolds  wrote:
>
> >But what about the side effects?
> >
> >Rick R  wrote:
> >
> >>I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us
> with
> >>an online voting solution.
> >>Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand, so, in
> >>effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is certainly of
> >>interest to Haskell coders.
> >>
> >>
> >>On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten
> >>>  wrote:
> >>> > There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
> >>> >
> >>> >  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
> >>>
> >>> This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections?
> >>>
> >>> --Max
> >>> ___
> >>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> >>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> >>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when
> we
> >>created them.
> >>   - A. Einstein
> >>___
> >>Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> >>Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> >>http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
> ___
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> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
>
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread gregg reynolds
I.e. war, plague.famine. etc.

gregg reynolds  wrote:

>But what about the side effects?
>
>Rick R  wrote:
>
>>I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us with
>>an online voting solution.
>>Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand, so, in
>>effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is certainly of
>>interest to Haskell coders.
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin  wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten
>>>  wrote:
>>> > There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
>>> >
>>> >  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
>>>
>>> This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections?
>>>
>>> --Max
>>> ___
>>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we
>>created them.
>>   - A. Einstein
>>___
>>Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>>Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>>http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread gregg reynolds
But what about the side effects?

Rick R  wrote:

>I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us with
>an online voting solution.
>Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand, so, in
>effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is certainly of
>interest to Haskell coders.
>
>
>On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten
>>  wrote:
>> > There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
>> >
>> >  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
>>
>> This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections?
>>
>> --Max
>> ___
>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we
>created them.
>   - A. Einstein
>___
>Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Don Stewart
This looks very promising!
Investigating...

anton:
> There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
>
>   http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
>
>
> gregg reynolds wrote:
>> See also www.surveymonkey.com
>>
>> Bulat Ziganshin  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello haskell-cafe,
>>>
>>> http://zohopolls.com/
>
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Rick R
I'm sure Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold) can provide us with
an online voting solution.
Their value-add services allows us to set the outcome beforehand, so, in
effect, the the voting process will be determinate. Which is certainly of
interest to Haskell coders.


On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Max Rabkin  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten
>  wrote:
> > There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
> >
> >  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
>
> This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections?
>
> --Max
> ___
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-- 
We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we
created them.
   - A. Einstein
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Max Rabkin
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Anton van Straaten
 wrote:
> There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:
>
>  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html

This looks like exactly what we need! Any objections?

--Max
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Anton van Straaten

There's also the Condorcet Internet Voting Service:

  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html


gregg reynolds wrote:

See also www.surveymonkey.com

Bulat Ziganshin  wrote:


Hello haskell-cafe,

http://zohopolls.com/


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread gregg reynolds
See also www.surveymonkey.com

Bulat Ziganshin  wrote:

>Hello haskell-cafe,
>
>http://zohopolls.com/
>
>-- 
>Best regards,
> Bulat  mailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com
>
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[Haskell-cafe] How to create an online poll

2009-02-18 Thread Bulat Ziganshin
Hello haskell-cafe,

http://zohopolls.com/

-- 
Best regards,
 Bulat  mailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com

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