Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: anybody can tell me the pronuncation of?haskell?
According to the Gogen Yurai Jiten (Etymology
Derivation Dictionary)
(http://gogen-allguide.com/a/arigatou.html), the
etymology of arigato (arigatou when entered into a
Japanese input method editor, such as Kotoeri) is as
follows (at the risk of moji-bake (garbled text), I
have included the Japanese text in Japanese characters
before each translated portion):
- translated text follows immediately after this line
-
èªÆ¤Ìê¹ÍA`euLèïµi 誽µjvÌAp`uLèïi 誽jvªE¹Ö»µA èªÆ¤ÆÈÁ½B
The etymology of arigatou is that the te-form
[loosely translated as conjunctive form] arigataku
of the adjective arigatashi changed in form to end
in the u sound, and became arigatou.
uLèïµi 誽µjvÍAuLéi éj±Ævªuï¢i©½¢jvÆ¢¤Ó¡ÅA{ÍuŽÉÈ¢vâu¿µÄMd¾vÆ¢¤Ó¡ð\µ½B
Arigatashi has the meaning of being being
rare/difficult, and originally expressed the
meaning of rare or uncommon and precious.
wqxÌu 誽«àÌvÅÍAu±Ì¢É é̪ﵢvÆ¢¤Ó¡AÂÜèAuß²µÉ¢vÆ¢Á½Ó¡Åàp¢çêÄ¢éB
In [the scene] Arigataki Mono [That Which is
Uncommon/Precious] ] of Makura no Soushi [The Pillow
Book] [see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pillow_Book], it is
also used to mean it is difficult to be in this
world; i.e., difficult to spend [time in].
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
When medieval times arrived, from [the idea of]
charity of the Buddha, etc., in obtaining that which
is precious and difficult to obtain, it came to
express a feeling of gratitude, and in recent times
and later, it spread to general use as the meaning of
gratitude.
|gKêÌuIuK[hiobrigadojv©çAu èªÆ¤vƾ¤æ¤ÉÈÁ½Æ¢¤àª éªA|gKlªKêéÈO©çgíêÄ¢½¾tª|gKêÉR·é͸ÍÈAuIuK[hvÆu èªÆ¤v̹ªß¢Æ¢¤¾¯ÌbÅAöxÌá¢àÅ éB
There is a myth that from obrigado of Portuguese,
people came to say arigatou, but it cannot be the
case that a word used before Portuguese people [first]
visited Japan was derived from the Portuguese
language; it just so happens to be the case that the
sounds of obrigado and arigatou are similar, and
this is a vulgar myth.
- translated text ends immediately before this line -
Yoroshiku onegai itashimasu.
Arigatou gozaimasu.
Benjamin L. Russell
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chung-chieh Shan corrects me:
PS. If you think that arigato is a genuine
Japanese word, well, check
how the appropriately translated word is spelled
in Portuguese...
I'm not sure what you mean by genuine, but I
suspect that whether
arigato is genuine does not depend on
Portuguese.
http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1871.html
http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1906.html
Yes, it seems that I have been one more victim of
this red herring.
In the cited issues of the linguistlist there is a
nice discussion of that
topic. It should be more widely known entre a gente
falando portugues.
Vou calar a boca...
Gomen nasai.
Jerzy Karczmarczuk
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[Haskell-cafe] Re: anybody can tell me the pronuncation of?haskell?
Chung-chieh Shan corrects me: PS. If you think that arigato is a genuine Japanese word, well, check how the appropriately translated word is spelled in Portuguese... I'm not sure what you mean by genuine, but I suspect that whether arigato is genuine does not depend on Portuguese. http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1871.html http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1906.html Yes, it seems that I have been one more victim of this red herring. In the cited issues of the linguistlist there is a nice discussion of that topic. It should be more widely known entre a gente falando portugues. Vou calar a boca... Gomen nasai. Jerzy Karczmarczuk ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: anybody can tell me the pronuncation of?haskell?
The opposite can also happen. Tobacco (mid-16th century Spanish) is rendered as tabako in Japanese, in fact a very Japanese-sounding word (perhaps from, ta + hako). This may explain why, unlike almost all foreign words in Japanese that are written in katakana (a sort of simpler-looking consonant+vowel symbol), it is most often written in hiragana like native words and grammatical constructions. More likely is the fact that it is a several centuries old loanword (brought maybe from Macao?) when katakana was more exclusively used by men (it looks visually more masculine, and used for grammar by men until WWII) whereas hiragana was used by women, so the use of hiragana was not indicative of origin. In fact, it can even be written with kanji (especially on signs), which as was mentioned in the second reference is no guarantee of Chinese or Japanese origin. Anyway, according to a very informal survey of friends while I was in Japan in the early 80's, most had no idea that tabako was a foreign loanword. There is an important adage in linguistics: always believe what a native speaker says *in*his language, never believe what a native speaker says *about* his language. Dan Chung-chieh Shan wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in article [EMAIL PROTECTED] in gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe: Arigato gozaimasu. Jerzy Karczmarczuk. PS. If you think that arigato is a genuine Japanese word, well, check how the appropriately translated word is spelled in Portuguese... I'm not sure what you mean by genuine, but I suspect that whether arigato is genuine does not depend on Portuguese. http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1871.html http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1906.html ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: anybody can tell me the pronuncation of haskell?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jerzy Karczmarczuk (pronounced as written) Do you mean you don't care, or are you assuming that we know whether the convention is to read it as Polish orthography, English, or French? Jón (invariably mispronounced) -- Jón Fairbairn [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: anybody can tell me the pronuncation of
I didn't know Haskell was an English name. There's a Haskell playing for England at Twickenham on Saturday. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: anybody can tell me the pronuncation of?haskell?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in article [EMAIL PROTECTED] in gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe: Arigato gozaimasu. Jerzy Karczmarczuk. PS. If you think that arigato is a genuine Japanese word, well, check how the appropriately translated word is spelled in Portuguese... I'm not sure what you mean by genuine, but I suspect that whether arigato is genuine does not depend on Portuguese. http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1871.html http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1906.html -- Edit this signature at http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/ken/sig It is intensely annoying to an old Lisp hacker to see Java succeeding despite being worse at just about everything Lisp was ever criticised for. Richard A. O'Keefe. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: anybody can tell me the pronuncation of haskell?
*did* disagree with me was also named Jeremy. How confusing. Are both Jeremys pronounced identically? Stefan ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: anybody can tell me the pronuncation of haskell?
Tim Chevalier catamorphism at gmail.com writes: On 1/28/08, Jeremy Apthorp nornagon at gmail.com wrote: On 29/01/2008, Tim Chevalier catamorphism at gmail.com wrote: Haskell, stress on the first syllable; the first syllable is like the word has and the second syllable is pronounced with a schwa where the e is written. Sometimes you will hear people stress the second syllable, but that is not Preferred. Hass (like in hassle) kell (to rhyme with fell) That is not correct. The second syllable does not rhyme with fell. In fact, the correct pronunciation sounds like hassle with a 'k' inserted between the two syllables of that word. Exactly. But am I the only person who has ever seen Leave It To Beaver? Remember Wally's slightly shady friend Eddie Haskell, who was always getting Wally into trouble? It's pronounced exactly like his name. -James ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: anybody can tell me the pronuncation of haskell?
James Russell wrote: Tim Chevalier catamorphism at gmail.com writes: That is not correct. The second syllable does not rhyme with fell. In fact, the correct pronunciation sounds like hassle with a 'k' inserted between the two syllables of that word. Exactly. But am I the only person who has ever seen Leave It To Beaver? Remember Wally's slightly shady friend Eddie Haskell, who was always getting Wally into trouble? It's pronounced exactly like his name. This dialog is channeling the writers of the film Young Frankenstein: Igor: Dr. Frankenstein... Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Fronkensteen. Igor: You're putting me on. Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No, it's pronounced Fronkensteen. Igor: Do you also say Froaderick? Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No...”Frederick. Igor: Well, why isn't it Froaderick Fronkensteen? Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: It isn't; it's Frederick Fronkensteen. Igor: I see. Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: You must be Igor. [He pronounces it ee-gor] Igor: No, it's pronounced eye-gor. Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: But they told me it was ee-gor. Igor: Well, they were wrong then, weren't they? [Transcript care of http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072431/quotes] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
