Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Paul Johnson p...@cogito.org.uk wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: A call has gone out http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-December/051836.html for a new logo for Haskell. Candidates (including a couple http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Image:Haskell-logo-revolution.png of mine http://www.haskell.org/sitewiki/images/f/fd/Ouroborous-oval.png) are accumulating here http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas. There has also been a long thread on the Haskell Cafe mailing list. So what's happening about this? I know I'm late to the party, but here's an observation anyway. It might be better to settle on an emblem first, and then a logo. Lambda is popular for functional languages, but it's not a distinctive feature of Haskell. What is distinctive of Haskell is category theory in general and the monad in particular. Both of which are strongly reminiscent of Alchemy. Believe it or not, it's possible to see the operations of the monad as the exact analog of certain aspects of Alchemy (I'm working on a detailed exposition.) Monad as Philosopher's Stone? Galleries of Alchemical emblems and symbols are easily found on the web; see for example the symbol for composition at http://www.iridius.info/current/info/ -gregg ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On 7 feb 2009, at 22:40, Don Stewart wrote: bulat.ziganshin: Hello Don, Saturday, February 7, 2009, 8:20:23 PM, you wrote: We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome! i think that there are a lot of free voting/survey services available. the last one i went through was LimeSurvey available for any SF project and on separate site too http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/sitedocs/wiki/Hosted%20Apps https://www.limeservice.com/ Before the new year's break, the progress we made towards deciding on a voting process was, http://groups.google.com/group/fa.haskell/msg/5d0ad1a681b044c7 Eelco implemented a demo condorcet voting system in HAppS. He then asked for help with some decisions: * Limit voting, if so how? Email confirmation, IP based, vote once, once per day? * Maybe don't show the results until the contest is over? Eelco, can we do simple email-based confirm to encourage people to vote only once, and can we keep the results closed until the vote process is over? Yes, sure. I'll try to make some time to finish the implementation, hopefully early next week. In the mean time, if somebody wants to go ahead and implement it (and maybe your own favorite feature as well), feel free to fork from http://github.com/eelco/voting The idea is that you only need to change the HTML to change the things that are voted upon. It might be nice(r) to use JavaScript to load those things. If you want to hack on it and have some questions please email me directly if you want a prompt response ;) -- Regards, Eelco Lempsink PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
Don Stewart wrote: Help identifying and implementing a voting process is very welcome. Maybe we could have an administrator who receives the votes by email and we confirm our emailed vote by appending the MD5 of our email to a Haskell wiki page. The machine-readable email format might be: I vote for these three logos in order of preference: 23 5 78 Here is my random salt: kauhgfhgh Here is the MD5 of the above: e4d909c290d0fb1ca068ffaddf22cbd0 The administrator can check the MD5s he has received by email and mark them as good on the wiki page, count the votes and publish the result. Richard. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: bulat.ziganshin: Hello Don, Saturday, February 7, 2009, 8:20:23 PM, you wrote: We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome! i think that there are a lot of free voting/survey services available. the last one i went through was LimeSurvey available for any SF project and on separate site too http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/sitedocs/wiki/Hosted%20Apps https://www.limeservice.com/ Before the new year's break, the progress we made towards deciding on a voting process was, http://groups.google.com/group/fa.haskell/msg/5d0ad1a681b044c7 Eelco implemented a demo condorcet voting system in HAppS. He then asked for help with some decisions: * Limit voting, if so how? Email confirmation, IP based, vote once, once per day? * Maybe don't show the results until the contest is over? Eelco, can we do simple email-based confirm to encourage people to vote only once, and can we keep the results closed until the vote process is over? -- Don We should limit voting, and limit based on IP. If we go via email, then anyone wishing extra votes merely needs to use mailinator.com (and its dozens of alternate domain names, to say nothing of competitors providing similar services) to vote as many times as they want. If we care about fraud, then it would be a very troublesome task to filter out all those ways to fraudulently vote; if we don't care about fraud, then email confirms are just a burden on honest users. Help identifying and implementing a voting process is very welcome. Snarky comments are not. An open-ended search process is obviously hazardous to any schedule. A logo is something that is better decided on sooner than later, since the Haskell community (and uses of the logo) is growing. Setting a deadline, even for a long time from now like a month or two, has no downside: if we reach the deadline, then we have limited the amount of time wasted; if a better system turns up before the deadline, then the deadline was nugatory and of no harm. -- gwern ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Gwern Branwen gwe...@gmail.com wrote: We should limit voting, and limit based on IP. If we go via email, then anyone wishing extra votes merely needs to use mailinator.com (and its dozens of alternate domain names, to say nothing of competitors providing similar services) to vote as many times as they want. If we care about fraud, then it would be a very troublesome task to filter out all those ways to fraudulently vote; if we don't care about fraud, then email confirms are just a burden on honest users. I don't know about other people, but for me it takes less time to change IP addresses than to sign up for a mail account. dhclient -r dsl0 dhclient dsl0 vs. fill in a form on a webpage. --Max ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Max Rabkin max.rab...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Gwern Branwen gwe...@gmail.com wrote: We should limit voting, and limit based on IP. If we go via email, then anyone wishing extra votes merely needs to use mailinator.com (and its dozens of alternate domain names, to say nothing of competitors providing similar services) to vote as many times as they want. If we care about fraud, then it would be a very troublesome task to filter out all those ways to fraudulently vote; if we don't care about fraud, then email confirms are just a burden on honest users. I don't know about other people, but for me it takes less time to change IP addresses than to sign up for a mail account. dhclient -r dsl0 dhclient dsl0 vs. fill in a form on a webpage. --Max You don't sign up for a Mailinator account. That's the whole point. Take a look at https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mailinator -- gwern ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
s.clover: IP based limitations are a terrible idea. Multiple users can be and often are behind the same IP if they're in some sort of intranet, be it corporate, academic, or simply multiple home computers. Mail-based authentication can be screwed with, sure, but it's also very easy to notice this (as opposed to ip nonsense) through simply eyeballing the results. There's no general everywhere way to prevent vote fraud. However, if we make it even require a mild bit of thought, that should be sufficient in this case, as there won't be enough votes to prevent some sort of rough eyeball-based check of the results, and if there are, then that's a sign of fraud for sure! Furthermore, there's very little incentive for someone to go the extra mile here, as we're voting for a haskell logo, and not, e.g., giving away ten thousand dollars. Exactly. Let's not wander down to the bikeshed :) Furthermore, since I assume we'll only be presenting reasonable logos, there's not even some room for pranksters to stage a write-in of some gag slogan. Right, only a subset of previously submitted ones. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: s.clover: IP based limitations are a terrible idea. Multiple users can be and often are behind the same IP if they're in some sort of intranet, be it corporate, academic, or simply multiple home computers. Mail-based authentication can be screwed with, sure, but it's also very easy to notice this (as opposed to ip nonsense) through simply eyeballing the results. There's no general everywhere way to prevent vote fraud. However, if we make it even require a mild bit of thought, that should be sufficient in this case, as there won't be enough votes to prevent some sort of rough eyeball-based check of the results, and if there are, then that's a sign of fraud for sure! Furthermore, there's very little incentive for someone to go the extra mile here, as we're voting for a haskell logo, and not, e.g., giving away ten thousand dollars. Exactly. Let's not wander down to the bikeshed :) Furthermore, since I assume we'll only be presenting reasonable logos, there's not even some room for pranksters to stage a write-in of some gag slogan. Right, only a subset of previously submitted ones. -- Don So does this mean no 'haskell YEEHH!'? -- gwern ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
Furthermore, since I assume we'll only be presenting reasonable logos, there's not even some room for pranksters to stage a write-in of some gag slogan. Right, only a subset of previously submitted ones. -- Don So does this mean no 'haskell YEEHH!'? Isn't that already the underground official logo? http://www.facebook.com/pages/Haskell/56088385002 -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
Paul Johnson wrote: A call has gone out http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-December/051836.html for a new logo for Haskell. Candidates (including a couple http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Image:Haskell-logo-revolution.png of mine http://www.haskell.org/sitewiki/images/f/fd/Ouroborous-oval.png) are accumulating here http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas. There has also been a long thread on the Haskell Cafe mailing list. So what's happening about this? Paul. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
paul: Paul Johnson wrote: A call has gone out http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-December/051836.html for a new logo for Haskell. Candidates (including a couple http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Image:Haskell-logo-revolution.png of mine http://www.haskell.org/sitewiki/images/f/fd/Ouroborous-oval.png) are accumulating here http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas. There has also been a long thread on the Haskell Cafe mailing list. So what's happening about this? We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome! -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome! -- Don Can't we just use the haskell proposal reddit for this? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
wagner.andrew: We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome! -- Don Can't we just use the haskell proposal reddit for this? Hmm... not ideal. Would make a backup should all else fail. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
Um, ok. Glad we could discuss it On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: wagner.andrew: We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome! -- Don Can't we just use the haskell proposal reddit for this? Hmm... not ideal. Would make a backup should all else fail. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
Oh, we had a long discussion about the need for condorcet voting, not a system like the reddit which is prone to abuse. Also, it would be good to have the images inline. wagner.andrew: Um, ok. Glad we could discuss it On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: wagner.andrew: We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome! -- Don Can't we just use the haskell proposal reddit for this? Hmm... not ideal. Would make a backup should all else fail. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
Hello Don, Saturday, February 7, 2009, 8:20:23 PM, you wrote: We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome! i think that there are a lot of free voting/survey services available. the last one i went through was LimeSurvey available for any SF project and on separate site too http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/sitedocs/wiki/Hosted%20Apps https://www.limeservice.com/ -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Oh, we had a long discussion about the need for condorcet voting, not a system like the reddit which is prone to abuse. Also, it would be good to have the images inline. Perfect, please meet better. Better, perfect. Now get along you two! Since January 1st, we could've had hundreds or thousands of votes and easily compensated for any abuse. -- gwern ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
gwern0: On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Oh, we had a long discussion about the need for condorcet voting, not a system like the reddit which is prone to abuse. Also, it would be good to have the images inline. Perfect, please meet better. Better, perfect. Now get along you two! Since January 1st, we could've had hundreds or thousands of votes and easily compensated for any abuse. Unfortunately, reddit isn't a suitable voting site, as submissions decay over time, dissappearing off the page after a day or two. It does have up and down mods, but in no other way is a voting site. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: gwern0: On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Oh, we had a long discussion about the need for condorcet voting, not a system like the reddit which is prone to abuse. Also, it would be good to have the images inline. Perfect, please meet better. Better, perfect. Now get along you two! Since January 1st, we could've had hundreds or thousands of votes and easily compensated for any abuse. Unfortunately, reddit isn't a suitable voting site, as submissions decay over time, dissappearing off the page after a day or two. It does have up and down mods, but in no other way is a voting site. -- Don That's how the what's hot works, I understand. But it seems to me that Top works just fine for vote tallying purposes eg. http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/top/ lists quite a few posts posted months ago (4 months seems to be the oldest). -- gwern ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
gwern0: On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: gwern0: On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Oh, we had a long discussion about the need for condorcet voting, not a system like the reddit which is prone to abuse. Also, it would be good to have the images inline. Perfect, please meet better. Better, perfect. Now get along you two! Since January 1st, we could've had hundreds or thousands of votes and easily compensated for any abuse. Unfortunately, reddit isn't a suitable voting site, as submissions decay over time, dissappearing off the page after a day or two. It does have up and down mods, but in no other way is a voting site. -- Don That's how the what's hot works, I understand. But it seems to me that Top works just fine for vote tallying purposes eg. http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/top/ lists quite a few posts posted months ago (4 months seems to be the oldest). Quite so, biased by the fact that they dropped off the page. I'm not saying reddit is unsuitable for communal decision making -- I've thought hard about this -- just that isn't perfect, and this isn't really its purpose. It would make a good backup if we can't find a proper system. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
2009/2/7 Don Stewart d...@galois.com: Quite so, biased by the fact that they dropped off the page. I'm not saying reddit is unsuitable for communal decision making -- I've thought hard about this -- just that isn't perfect, and this isn't really its purpose. It would make a good backup if we can't find a proper system. -- Don And how long do we wait? Is a month long enough? 2 months? Do we just make a note on our calendars for February 2010 - 'get moving on that logo contest thing'? -- gwern ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
gwern0: 2009/2/7 Don Stewart d...@galois.com: Quite so, biased by the fact that they dropped off the page. I'm not saying reddit is unsuitable for communal decision making -- I've thought hard about this -- just that isn't perfect, and this isn't really its purpose. It would make a good backup if we can't find a proper system. -- Don And how long do we wait? Is a month long enough? 2 months? Do we just make a note on our calendars for February 2010 - 'get moving on that logo contest thing'? Help identifying and implementing a voting process is very welcome. Snarky comments are not. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
bulat.ziganshin: Hello Don, Saturday, February 7, 2009, 8:20:23 PM, you wrote: We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome! i think that there are a lot of free voting/survey services available. the last one i went through was LimeSurvey available for any SF project and on separate site too http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/sitedocs/wiki/Hosted%20Apps https://www.limeservice.com/ Before the new year's break, the progress we made towards deciding on a voting process was, http://groups.google.com/group/fa.haskell/msg/5d0ad1a681b044c7 Eelco implemented a demo condorcet voting system in HAppS. He then asked for help with some decisions: * Limit voting, if so how? Email confirmation, IP based, vote once, once per day? * Maybe don't show the results until the contest is over? Eelco, can we do simple email-based confirm to encourage people to vote only once, and can we keep the results closed until the vote process is over? -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
eelco: On 21 dec 2008, at 22:26, Sebastian Sylvan wrote: I am very shortly travelling abroad for several weeks and will not have (reliable access to) a computer, but isn't this a task for one of the haskell web-apps people (HSP, HAppS, Turbinado, etc.) to show us once and for all why *their* library is better than the competition? :-) Hmm, right. I started on a thing in HAppS. See http://github.com/eelco/voting/ for the source code (contributors more than welcome!) and http://code.tupil.com/voting/ for a live demo. It relies heavily on javascript, needs some work on the UI and there are a lot of features that could be added, but it works. Yay! Yes, let's do something like this. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On 21 dec 2008, at 22:26, Sebastian Sylvan wrote: I am very shortly travelling abroad for several weeks and will not have (reliable access to) a computer, but isn't this a task for one of the haskell web-apps people (HSP, HAppS, Turbinado, etc.) to show us once and for all why *their* library is better than the competition? :-) Hmm, right. I started on a thing in HAppS. See http://github.com/eelco/voting/ for the source code (contributors more than welcome!) and http://code.tupil.com/voting/ for a live demo. It relies heavily on javascript, needs some work on the UI and there are a lot of features that could be added, but it works. -- Regards, Eelco Lempsink PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
2008/12/22 Eelco Lempsink ee...@lempsink.nl: Hmm, right. I started on a thing in HAppS. See http://github.com/eelco/voting/ for the source code (contributors more than welcome!) and http://code.tupil.com/voting/ for a live demo. It relies heavily on javascript, needs some work on the UI and there are a lot of features that could be added, but it works. Great. Could it be further hacked to accept ties, as suggested by Sebastian? Something like: thingie1 thingie1bis thingie3 thingie4 thingie4bis Regards, Loup ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
(responding with just a bit of possibly relevant context, not always directly) Paul Johnson wrote: I've lived through a couple of corporate rebranding exercises in my time, and I've read about some others. They follow a pattern: ... 2. The new branding is released with as much fanfare as possible. Press releases are released. Staff are given briefings about the significance of the whole exercise and the bold new future that it symbolises. I don't think our choice of logo is quite as significant as a corporate logo. We could even use more than one logo if we wanted (maybe different people or different places). The current logo is prominent on the haskell.org (and wikipedia), mainly... places I rarely see, when working on Haskell. I see a couple things people are trying to do - Self-descriptive, without trying to change the way we are as a community or a language - Inviting to newcomers, mostly independent of how we actually work (although better if we advertize things we can actually provide, of course) I don't think it's trying to create a change in the language or the community, mostly it's to reflect the change that has already happened. 3. The staff universally agree that the new logo is not a patch on the old one. The old one was a much loved friend; it stood for something; people have spent years working for it. The new one is obviously a piece of cheap gimcrackery yup, I'll miss the old logo. To me, it still looks beautiful, clean and fitting. A paradox of the Haskell world is that, while the language is Vulcan, the community around it is dominated by Warm Fuzziness. Clearly the two are not mutually exclusive. nice observation! A rebranding exercise needs to start with a short list of adjectives that the brand is to represent, good idea... although we could just be attracted by whatever proposed logo happens to have beauty instead, if our only purpose is not to be stuck with an ugly logo. and I think that the Haskell community needs to decide this before it fires up Inkscape. or in parallel with :-) -- random creativity can help us start thinking about what we don't want to see, and why we don't want to see it, too -Isaac ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On 22 dec 2008, at 19:14, Loup Vaillant wrote: 2008/12/22 Eelco Lempsink ee...@lempsink.nl: Hmm, right. I started on a thing in HAppS. See http://github.com/eelco/voting/ for the source code (contributors more than welcome!) and http://code.tupil.com/voting/ for a live demo. It relies heavily on javascript, needs some work on the UI and there are a lot of features that could be added, but it works. Great. Could it be further hacked to accept ties, as suggested by Sebastian? Something like: thingie1 thingie1bis thingie3 thingie4 thingie4bis Yes. Done. It's quite tricky to get the dragging and dropping interface to work nice, but I think I'm getting close. If anybody with jQuery experience has some ideas how to improve it, please do :) -- Regards, Eelco Lempsink PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
A call has gone out for a new logo for Haskell. Candidates (including a couple of mine) are accumulating here. There has also been a long thread on the Haskell Cafe mailing list. I've lived through a couple of corporate rebranding exercises in my time, and I've read about some others. They follow a pattern: Management decide that the organisation needs a makeover to change public perception. A new corporate "look and feel" is part of this, and a new logo is therefore required. The rest of the makeover may be deep or shallow; that doesn't affect the rest of this story. The new branding is released with as much fanfare as possible. Press releases are released. Staff are given briefings about the significance of the whole exercise and the bold new future that it symbolises. The staff universally agree that the new logo is not a patch on the old one. The old one was a much loved friend; it stood for something; people have spent years working for it. The new one is obviously a piece of cheap gimcrackery munged up by an overpaid consultancy hired by senior managers who mistake image for substance. A ten year-old with an Etch-a-Sketch could have done better. Over time the new logo blends in and becomes part of the scenery. Years pass. Go to stage 1 and repeat. This suggests that the current effort to find a new logo for Haskell needs to go back to the basics. Its no good expecting consensus on one of the suggestions because there are too many options and everyone has their favourite. Nothing will attract a majority of the community. Furthermore I think that (just like programmers everywhere) we have dived into development before deciding what the requirements are. This is reflected in the mailing list discussion, where two broad positions seem to be emerging. On one side we have what I think of as the "Vulcans". This group sees Haskell as abstract and difficult, and believes that the logo should reflect these qualities. They want mathematical symbols to dominate the design. On the other side we have the "Warm Fuzzies". They want Haskell to be perceived as accessible and welcoming, and so want a logo featuring something warm and friendly. A paradox of the Haskell world is that, while the language is Vulcan, the community around it is dominated by Warm Fuzziness. Clearly the two are not mutually exclusive. A rebranding exercise needs to start with a short list of adjectives that the brand is to represent, and I think that the Haskell community needs to decide this before it fires up Inkscape. To that end, here are a sample of adjectives in alphabetical order: abstract, academic, accessible, accurate, adventurous, business-like, communal, complicated, dangerous, different, easy, exciting, familiar, friendly, fun, fuzzy, hard, interesting, inventive, precise, productive, profitable, reliable, revolutionary, safe, simple, strange, supportive, warm, welcoming. What are the top three adjectives we want to project? Once we have decided that, we can write a brief for the Haskell logo. Note that the selected adjectives need not be related. In fact they may be partly contradictory. I've already noted that the language is Vulcan whereas the community is Warm and Friendly. So they might reasonably be the three adjectives (though I wouldn't take "Vulcan" too literally). The challenge will then be for the graphical work to project these qualities, even if they seem incompatible. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
Wonderful, Paul. Could you add your list of adjectives to the wiki page. Note that the initial deadline was Dec 31, after which time we can filter out dupes and narrow down the logos to about 5 or so different directions to have a vote on. Anything you can do to help direct or improve quality is welcome! -- Don paul: A [1]call has gone out for a new logo for Haskell. Candidates (including a [2]couple of [3]mine) are accumulating [4]here. There has also been a long thread on the Haskell Cafe mailing list. I've lived through a couple of corporate rebranding exercises in my time, and I've read about some others. They follow a pattern: 1. Management decide that the organisation needs a makeover to change public perception. A new corporate look and feel is part of this, and a new logo is therefore required. The rest of the makeover may be deep or shallow; that doesn't affect the rest of this story. 2. The new branding is released with as much fanfare as possible. Press releases are released. Staff are given briefings about the significance of the whole exercise and the bold new future that it symbolises. 3. The staff universally agree that the new logo is not a patch on the old one. The old one was a much loved friend; it stood for something; people have spent years working for it. The new one is obviously a piece of cheap gimcrackery munged up by an overpaid consultancy hired by senior managers who mistake image for substance. A ten year-old with an Etch-a-Sketch could have done better. 4. Over time the new logo blends in and becomes part of the scenery. Years pass. Go to stage 1 and repeat. This suggests that the current effort to find a new logo for Haskell needs to go back to the basics. Its no good expecting consensus on one of the suggestions because there are too many options and everyone has their favourite. Nothing will attract a majority of the community. Furthermore I think that (just like programmers everywhere) we have dived into development before deciding what the requirements are. This is reflected in the mailing list discussion, where two broad positions seem to be emerging. * On one side we have what I think of as the Vulcans. This group sees Haskell as abstract and difficult, and believes that the logo should reflect these qualities. They want mathematical symbols to dominate the design. * On the other side we have the Warm Fuzzies. They want Haskell to be perceived as accessible and welcoming, and so want a logo featuring something warm and friendly. A paradox of the Haskell world is that, while the language is Vulcan, the community around it is dominated by Warm Fuzziness. Clearly the two are not mutually exclusive. A rebranding exercise needs to start with a short list of adjectives that the brand is to represent, and I think that the Haskell community needs to decide this before it fires up Inkscape. To that end, here are a sample of adjectives in alphabetical order: abstract, academic, accessible, accurate, adventurous, business-like, communal, complicated, dangerous, different, easy, exciting, familiar, friendly, fun, fuzzy, hard, interesting, inventive, precise, productive, profitable, reliable, revolutionary, safe, simple, strange, supportive, warm, welcoming. What are the top three adjectives we want to project? Once we have decided that, we can write a brief for the Haskell logo. Note that the selected adjectives need not be related. In fact they may be partly contradictory. I've already noted that the language is Vulcan whereas the community is Warm and Friendly. So they might reasonably be the three adjectives (though I wouldn't take Vulcan too literally). The challenge will then be for the graphical work to project these qualities, even if they seem incompatible. References Visible links 1. http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-December/051836.html 2. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Image:Haskell-logo-revolution.png 3. http://www.haskell.org/sitewiki/images/f/fd/Ouroborous-oval.png 4. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
2008/12/21 Paul Johnson p...@cogito.org.uk This suggests that the current effort to find a new logo for Haskell needs to go back to the basics. Its no good expecting consensus on one of the suggestions because there are too many options and everyone has their favourite. Nothing will attract a majority of the community. I agree with this, which I why I would propose using Condorcet-voting. Personally I find the current logo horrendous. I think it's ugly and intimidating at the same time. I don't really care too much which one of the proposals should win, just so long as I can weed out some of the ones I really hate. Condorcet voting will pick a good compromise, where someone like me could just put all the acceptable ones at shared #1, and all the ones I dislike at #2., and someone with stronger opinions could flesh it out some more. The point being that the least disliked logo wins out. Maybe nobody will be happy, but hopefully most people won't be deeply unhappy with it. It would be a shame if there's lots of votes that are spread out over a large group of fairly similar logos that are good, and then a crappy one wins out with 6% of the vote because there weren't any others like it so the votes for that style weren't spread out over multiple entries. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_voting -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
Would you be willing to set up a little online voting system (or do you know of one) so we can implement this? Assume there'll be 10 candidates. -- Don sylvan: 2008/12/21 Paul Johnson [1]p...@cogito.org.uk This suggests that the current effort to find a new logo for Haskell needs to go back to the basics. Its no good expecting consensus on one of the suggestions because there are too many options and everyone has their favourite. Nothing will attract a majority of the community. I agree with this, which I why I would propose using Condorcet-voting. Personally I find the current logo horrendous. I think it's ugly and intimidating at the same time. I don't really care too much which one of the proposals should win, just so long as I can weed out some of the ones I really hate. Condorcet voting will pick a good compromise, where someone like me could just put all the acceptable ones at shared #1, and all the ones I dislike at #2., and someone with stronger opinions could flesh it out some more. The point being that the least disliked logo wins out. Maybe nobody will be happy, but hopefully most people won't be deeply unhappy with it. It would be a shame if there's lots of votes that are spread out over a large group of fairly similar logos that are good, and then a crappy one wins out with 6% of the vote because there weren't any others like it so the votes for that style weren't spread out over multiple entries. Wikipedia: [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_voting -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 References Visible links 1. mailto:p...@cogito.org.uk 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_voting ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
I am very shortly travelling abroad for several weeks and will not have (reliable access to) a computer, but isn't this a task for one of the haskell web-apps people (HSP, HAppS, Turbinado, etc.) to show us once and for all why *their* library is better than the competition? :-) On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Would you be willing to set up a little online voting system (or do you know of one) so we can implement this? Assume there'll be 10 candidates. -- Don sylvan: 2008/12/21 Paul Johnson [1]p...@cogito.org.uk This suggests that the current effort to find a new logo for Haskell needs to go back to the basics. Its no good expecting consensus on one of the suggestions because there are too many options and everyone has their favourite. Nothing will attract a majority of the community. I agree with this, which I why I would propose using Condorcet-voting. Personally I find the current logo horrendous. I think it's ugly and intimidating at the same time. I don't really care too much which one of the proposals should win, just so long as I can weed out some of the ones I really hate. Condorcet voting will pick a good compromise, where someone like me could just put all the acceptable ones at shared #1, and all the ones I dislike at #2., and someone with stronger opinions could flesh it out some more. The point being that the least disliked logo wins out. Maybe nobody will be happy, but hopefully most people won't be deeply unhappy with it. It would be a shame if there's lots of votes that are spread out over a large group of fairly similar logos that are good, and then a crappy one wins out with 6% of the vote because there weren't any others like it so the votes for that style weren't spread out over multiple entries. Wikipedia: [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_voting -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 References Visible links 1. mailto:p...@cogito.org.uk 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_voting ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 01:23:33PM -0800, Don Stewart wrote: Would you be willing to set up a little online voting system (or do you know of one) so we can implement this? Assume there'll be 10 candidates. What about www.doodle.com? Ciao, Kili ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
kili: On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 01:23:33PM -0800, Don Stewart wrote: Would you be willing to set up a little online voting system (or do you know of one) so we can implement this? Assume there'll be 10 candidates. What about www.doodle.com? That looks like it might be an option, embedded in a page with the 10 candidates. Thanks! Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell re-branding exercise
G'day all. Quoting Sebastian Sylvan syl...@student.chalmers.se: Personally I find the current logo horrendous. I think it's ugly and intimidating at the same time. I don't really care too much which one of the proposals should win, just so long as I can weed out some of the ones I really hate. I guess this is one difference between the Haskell rebranding exercise and other corporate rebranding exercises: Nobody especially likes the current logo. (Disclaimer: It would be fair to say that there are some who don't hate it as much as Sebastian, but nobody really likes it.) Cheers, Andrew Bromage ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
