Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Vincent Hanquez t...@snarc.org wrote: I think cute is good enough, and heathmatlock's lamb da, a good and simple name with a funny pun, definitely made me smile, and hope that's something i see on haskell tshirts soon ;-) Done. http://open.spreadshirt.com Ok, I've gone from complete indifference in the beginning to a weird version of shocked adoration for that damned lamb. Now, suddenly, I'm the owner of a new hoodie with its visage emblazoned on it. +1 vote for the lamb, (though I have the favicon and images and forever associate Da with Haskell) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Am Mittwoch, den 16.11.2011, 10:46 +0100 schrieb Bas van Dijk: Is ⊥ the right symbol to express the non-strict evaluation of the language? Is it true that non-strict evaluation requires that ⊥ inhabits every type? In typical strict languages, ⊥ also inhabits every type. The difference is that the domains of all types except function types are flat. That is, they don’t contain any partially defined values like ⊥ : ⊥, but only ⊥ and completely defined values. Where a Haskell expression would result in a partially defined value, the same expression in a corresponding strict language would result in ⊥. So strict languages are “more ⊥” than Haskell. Thus I cannot see why ⊥ should be used as a symbol for non-strictness at all. Best wishes, Wolfgang ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 23/11/2011, at 4:40 AM, Karol Samborski wrote: And what about a cat? The cat is associated with elegance and a kind of magic. Please take a look: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/kot.png I could never in my whole life draw as well as that. But they are *skittles*, just like Lamb Da. Cute. Stiff. Lifeless. Easy to knock over. Reminds me of a salt shaker and pepper pot of my mother's. The collar's good, but the lambda is just pasted on for no intrinsic reason. How about a relatively smart animal _in motion_ with the lambda formed naturally by the positions of its limbs? Maybe a leaping gelada with its hind legs forming the \ of the lambda and its tail and back forming the / ? Smart, social, moving, and of course, furry. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
2011/11/25 Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz: I could never in my whole life draw as well as that. But they are *skittles*, just like Lamb Da. Cute. Stiff. Lifeless. Easy to knock over. Reminds me of a salt shaker and pepper pot of my mother's. The collar's good, but the lambda is just pasted on for no intrinsic reason. I agree with you but it was drawn by my sister and she thought that the lambda and other expressions just must be on the mascot. I think she didn't have any idea where to draw it :) How about a relatively smart animal _in motion_ with the lambda formed naturally by the positions of its limbs? Maybe a leaping gelada with its hind legs forming the \ of the lambda and its tail and back forming the / ? Smart, social, moving, and of course, furry. OK, I will send her your idea. Best, Karol Samborski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
From: Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com On 11/22/11 16:52, heathmatlock wrote: Wasn't planning on it, but I saw some emails on the topic, so I worked on what I presented earlier: Anyway, creative design-by-committee is doomed, so my advice is to ignore this and all other advice =) +1 (The knight is my favorite, but Da for Mascot regardless) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Moritz Fischer hask...@pure-entropy.orgwrote: If you want people to identify even faster with Da, start by uploading some CC licenced SVGs. One thing that helps a lot imho is to allow other people to be creative with it, too. Done. Darcs: https://patch-tag.com/r/heath/Haskell-Mascot Git: https://github.com/heath/Haskell-Mascot -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 12:31 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Moritz Fischer hask...@pure-entropy.orgwrote: If you want people to identify even faster with Da, start by uploading some CC licenced SVGs. One thing that helps a lot imho is to allow other people to be creative with it, too. Done. Darcs: https://patch-tag.com/r/heath/Haskell-Mascot Git: https://github.com/heath/Haskell-Mascot As a heads up, you'll need to be familiar with layers if you want to see everything. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
I don't like the lamb at all. But I like the idea of a language mascot. I really like Adam Chlipala's spidurweb: http://www.impredicative.com/ur/ Maybe a lambdacat can volunteer. ;-) Regards, Dave ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 24 November 2011 09:10, David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com wrote: I don't like the lamb at all. But I like the idea of a language mascot. I really like Adam Chlipala's spidurweb: That to me is more of a logo than a mascot. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: On 24 November 2011 09:10, David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com wrote: I don't like the lamb at all. But I like the idea of a language mascot. I really like Adam Chlipala's spidurweb: That to me is more of a logo than a mascot. Maybe so, but any mascot needs to make a good logo. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Thank you all for appreciate my sister's work. I will send her your comments and then will see :) Best, Karol Samborski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
serialhex serial...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Jeremy Shaw jer...@n-heptane.com wrote: - honey badger - can't beat that for 'robust' and 'fearless', http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPKlryXwmXk i think you were referring to this vid: Original channel with lots of other animals and similar commentary. Certainly a refreshing alternative to the overly dramatic Discovery/Animal Planet style. And plenty of mascot material there: http://www.youtube.com/czg123 -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Jeremy Shaw jer...@n-heptane.com wrote: I think the artwork is nice, but I am not sure that a lamb is an appropriate mascot for Haskell. A mascot is supposed to represent characteristics, emotions, or desires that a particular group of people aspire to have, be like, etc. To outsiders, it provides a quick way to see if it might be a group they would like to belong to, and for insiders, it helps strengthen the bond and group identity by reminding them what they stand for. So far, the only justification I have noticed for why a lamb would represent Haskell users is that there is a pun about lambda's -- which only makes sense if you know English. Sheep are generally thought of as: - weak and needing protection - easily lead astray - being lead to the slaughter - dumb and easily lost Not sure those are traits that Haskeller's generally aspire to have. I think Haskeller's like Haskell because it is: - elegant - sophisticated - reliable - robust Haskeller's tend to be people who are curious. Pioneers who are willing to go off the beaten path in search of something better. People who are willing to evaluate something based on its merits rather than the mere approval of the mainstream. People who aspire to create elegant, beautiful code. People looking to better their skills, even if they don't use Haskell for most of their coding. And there is definitely a pragmatic aspect. Part of the appeal of Haskell is that it can actually be used for many real world applications and can often do the job better. The fact that you can use it to deliver more reliable and robust code in less time, is a very real and tangible benefit. Here are some suggestions of my own. I am not really excited about any of them either -- but they give some examples of how I think a mascot might work: - owl: traditionally thought of as 'wise'. Known for their keen (in)sight. Of course, some cultures believe they are a bad omen and a sign of impending death.. - honey badger - can't beat that for 'robust' and 'fearless', http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPKlryXwmXk - james bond - he's sophisticated, reliable, and he does it with 'class'. hahah, more silly puns :p Of course, he is also not public domain :) Plus, it is too male oriented. In summary, a mascot is supposed to elicit an emotional response from people and help create a bond. To do that, it needs to provide emotional leadership and say that, if you use Haskell, you can be like X. That doesn't it mean it can't be cute. People do tend to bond easily to cute things (like kittens!). But I don't think cute is enough. I also don't think that representing 'features' of Haskell, like 'laziness' or 'higher order' is the right core appeal either. That is too mental -- not enough emotion. Those things can, of course, be represented in the depiction of the mascot. Nothing wrong with cleverly hiding lamba's and _|_ in the picture. But, for example, saying that Haskell is 'lazy' so we should pick a sloth, is not really a good choice, IMO. - jeremy I disagree. I think cuteness is very nearly enough by its own. Tux has been an incredibly successful mascot - I can't think of any other technology-related (non-game) mascot who even comes close. What positive qualities does he convey, apart from being cute? Not many. He's fat and happy. That's good - it's a positive association and it attracts people. The drawings of Lamb Da so far have tended more towards cheerful and happy, and I think that's great; it has the same qualities. I think it works. I feel like getting stuck up on requiring the mascot to be sophisticated and non-mainstream and elegant and intelligent would just send the signal that we're stuck up. (And, I suppose, that there might be a kernel of truth there, but it's not a positive.) I do agree completely that focusing on specific features like laziness or what have you is the wrong path, and that they are more appropriate as an 'easter egg' sort of thing. And all of that said, I would also submit that there's a big difference in perception between lamb and sheep: Sheep, in common perception, are big and docile and stupid, whereas lambs are mainly just cute and adorable. I wasn't initially thrilled with the idea - a mascot? really? why? - but over the course of this discussion I've grown fond of Lamb Da. She's cute! (The pun is a very nice plus, and a great excuse. Sure, it's English, but lambs are cute in any language, and Haskell itself, when it uses language, is English. I don't think it's a huge deal.) On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:01 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com wrote: I liked Go's mascot, and I figure it couldn't hurt to have our own. I spent the past hour making this: http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png What do you think? -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Karol Samborski edv.ka...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/11/21 Karol Samborski edv.ka...@gmail.com: Hi all, This is my sister's proposition: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/The_Lamb_Da.png What do you think? Second version: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/The_Lamb_Da2.png Best, Karol Samborski I like (his?) (her?) (its?) ears. The pink one is too pink, but I'm a guy. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
And what about a cat? The cat is associated with elegance and a kind of magic. Please take a look: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/kot.png Best, Karol Samborski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Karol Samborski edv.ka...@gmail.com wrote: And what about a cat? The cat is associated with elegance and a kind of magic. Please take a look: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/kot.png Best, Karol Samborski That's true, and I did think of it. But I don't think it's distinctive enough. Cats are *everywhere*, you can't really claim them for Haskell. You can't ever get to the point where people (even people who know about it) will see a picture of a cat and think Haskell, the way you can with a penguin and Linux, and like you potentially could with a lamb and Haskell. Other people may disagree, of course. (And it's a shame, too, because a cat would be a great choice if they were somewhat more obscure and it weren't the case that every other person keeps two of them.) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 22 Nov 2011, at 15:40, Karol Samborski wrote: And what about a cat? The cat is associated with elegance and a kind of magic. Please take a look: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/kot.png My biggest criticism of the more recent ones is simply not to get carried away with magic haskell expressions, no matter how simple you think they are. The job of a mascot is to make people think aww, cute, I should clearly look into something with such a cute mascot, I suspect the response here would be more like the standard Haskell holy crap, crazy letters and symbols, get away from me! Bob ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 11/22/2011 05:22 AM, Jeremy Shaw wrote: I think the artwork is nice, but I am not sure that a lamb is an appropriate mascot for Haskell. snip I disagree as well. I think you're looking too much into what a mascot should means; looking at others mascot, linux's tux, freebsd's demon, go lang's thingie, perl (and ocaml)'s camel, java's duke (huh?), ..., do you think that any of them subscribe to your description of what a mascot should be ? I think cute is good enough, and heathmatlock's lamb da, a good and simple name with a funny pun, definitely made me smile, and hope that's something i see on haskell tshirts soon ;-) (And as a side note, i think the honey badger looks like a brute animal, not an elegant and beautiful animal.) -- Vincent ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Wasn't planning on it, but I saw some emails on the topic, so I worked on what I presented earlier: http://imgur.com/a/yIUOA A favicon is attached as well, it probably could use more work. attachment: favicon.ico___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
I goofed on a few images, but I'm a bit tired to correct them at the moment. Also, I'll upload higher res images another time, they don't look terrible up close. On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 3:52 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote: Wasn't planning on it, but I saw some emails on the topic, so I worked on what I presented earlier: http://imgur.com/a/yIUOA A favicon is attached as well, it probably could use more work. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
I really love the idea of Haskell having a mascot, and Da the Lamb seems a perfect one to me. 2011/11/22 heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com I goofed on a few images, but I'm a bit tired to correct them at the moment. Also, I'll upload higher res images another time, they don't look terrible up close. On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 3:52 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote: Wasn't planning on it, but I saw some emails on the topic, so I worked on what I presented earlier: http://imgur.com/a/yIUOA A favicon is attached as well, it probably could use more work. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
For some reason, I can't rest until this is done, so here's the larger images (with corrections): http://imgur.com/a/CTFJZ There's a download button on the top-right of the thumbnail if you want to observe the lamb up close. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 22 November 2011 13:22, Jeremy Shaw jer...@n-heptane.com wrote: Sheep are generally thought of as: - weak and needing protection - easily lead astray - being lead to the slaughter - dumb and easily lost Cool, so Haskell is made for people like me! I think Haskeller's like Haskell because it is: - elegant - sophisticated - reliable - robust Sounds boring! I like Haskell because it is fun :) Conrad. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Here are some examples of how the mascot can be used on the wiki: http://imgur.com/a/Hu1ve -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 11-11-22 12:22 AM, Jeremy Shaw wrote: A mascot is supposed to represent characteristics, emotions, or desires that a particular group of people aspire to have, be like, etc. To outsiders, it provides a quick way to see if it might be a group they would like to belong to, and for insiders, it helps strengthen the bond and group identity by reminding them what they stand for. I don't know why I relate to Canada, with mascots of the maple leaf, the beaver, and the moose. I don't know why I relate to linux, with a mascot of the penguin. I don't know why I relate to Kraft peanut butter, with a mascot of a pair of bears... So far, the only justification I have noticed for why a lamb would represent Haskell users is that there is a pun about lambda's -- which only makes sense if you know English. Sheep are generally thought of as: - weak and needing protection - easily lead astray - being lead to the slaughter - dumb and easily lost A lamb-in-arms is the antithesis to all those. It stands up with determination and might against mainstream oppression and stereotyping. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 11/22/11 8:22 PM, Albert Y. C. Lai wrote: On 11-11-22 12:22 AM, Jeremy Shaw wrote: - weak and needing protection - easily lead astray - being lead to the slaughter - dumb and easily lost A lamb-in-arms is the antithesis to all those. It stands up with determination and might against mainstream oppression and stereotyping. Of all the Da variants, I must say the knight is my favorite. -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 11/22/11 16:52, heathmatlock wrote: Wasn't planning on it, but I saw some emails on the topic, so I worked on what I presented earlier: I liked him more back when he was called Curry. That he is a lamb is a cute play on words. But for me, The Lamb Da was facepalm-inducing because it seems like it's trying too hard to maximize the number of gimmicks per square centimeter. Anyway, creative design-by-committee is doomed, so my advice is to ignore this and all other advice =) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Vincent Hanquez t...@snarc.org wrote: I think cute is good enough, and heathmatlock's lamb da, a good and simple name with a funny pun, definitely made me smile, and hope that's something i see on haskell tshirts soon ;-) Done. http://open.spreadshirt.com I was a little click happy at first while my slow computer was rendering some PNGs, so the last few pages of items probably need to be removed. If you like something and would like to see it larger or on some other shirt, let me know, and I'll get on it. Here are my picks from the lot: Kid's shirt with astrolamb: http://open.spreadshirt.com/children-s-tshirt-large-moon-A8545485 Women's slim shirt with astrolamb: http://open.spreadshirt.com/pillow-case-lamb-da-A8545524 Men's shirt with astrolamb: http://open.spreadshirt.com/men-s-american-apparel-haskell-moon-small-top-left-A8545439 Men's green shirt with CS Wizard lamb: http://open.spreadshirt.com/men-s-standard-weight-cs-wizard-da-large-smallest-white-text-A8545341 Men's green shirt with lamb and scarf: http://open.spreadshirt.com/men-s-standard-medium-da-smallest-white-text-A8545249 Men's long sleeve organic with large knight: http://open.spreadshirt.com/men-s-long-sleeve-organice-large-da-knight-small-black-lettering-A8545080 Men's athletic style shirt: http://open.spreadshirt.com/men-s-performance-samll-da-knight-top-left-small-black-lettering-A8545067 Men's standard with lamb top-left: http://open.spreadshirt.com/men-s-small-da-the-knight-top-leftl-small-white-letters-A8544856 Something Simon Peyton Jones would wear: http://open.spreadshirt.com/men-s-crewneck-sweatshirt-da-large-A8544677 And there are even a few more, but I don't want to spam the list with too many links (there are over 100 Haskell specific items there now, pillow cases included!). I'm paid $1 per item sold, some items are costs more than others. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 12:48 AM, Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.comwrote: On 11/22/11 16:52, heathmatlock wrote: I liked him more back when he was called Curry. That he is a lamb is a cute play on words. But for me, The Lamb Da was facepalm-inducing because it seems like it's trying too hard to maximize the number of gimmicks per square centimeter. I wouldn't mind a poll on the mascot and its name. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Hi there, On 11/23/2011 08:30 AM, heathmatlock wrote: I like it but ... I'm paid $1 per item sold, some items are costs more than others. If you want people to identify even faster with Da, start by uploading some CC licenced SVGs. One thing that helps a lot imho is to allow other people to be creative with it, too. Just my 5 euro cents, Cheers, Moritz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Hi all, This is my sister's proposition: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/The_Lamb_Da.png What do you think? Best, Karol Samborski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
2011/11/21 Karol Samborski edv.ka...@gmail.com: Hi all, This is my sister's proposition: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/The_Lamb_Da.png What do you think? Second version: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/The_Lamb_Da2.png Best, Karol Samborski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Cute! I like it! On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 7:52 AM, Karol Samborski edv.ka...@gmail.comwrote: 2011/11/21 Karol Samborski edv.ka...@gmail.com: Hi all, This is my sister's proposition: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/The_Lamb_Da.png What do you think? Second version: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/The_Lamb_Da2.png Best, Karol Samborski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
heathmatlock wrote: Cute! I like it! Yea, it's cute. I don't like the formula, though: \x - x + x is just too trivial and not very Haskellish. Something higher order is the minimum requirement, IMO. The original (lambda knights) formula was cool: the fixed point operator is directly related to recursion, which is reflected in the picture that contains itself; note also that defining this operator requires an untyped language, so this fits LISP quite well (but not Haskell). What about the formula for function composition (f . g) x = f (g x) maybe together with its type (or maybe only the type) (.) :: (b - c) - (a - b) - a - c Extremely cool are GADTs, such as data Eq a b where Refl :: Eq a a Or, if you'd like something more obscure but still at the center of what Haskell is about, take the mother of all monads m = f = \k - m (\a - (f a) k) This is a formula I can spend a day contemplating and still wonder if I have _really_ understood it. And doesn't that properly reflect the depth and richness of Haskell? Cheers Ben On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 7:52 AM, Karol Samborski edv.ka...@gmail.comwrote: 2011/11/21 Karol Samborski edv.ka...@gmail.com: Hi all, This is my sister's proposition: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/The_Lamb_Da.png What do you think? Second version: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/The_Lamb_Da2.png Best, Karol Samborski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 21/11/2011, at 9:22 PM, Karol Samborski wrote: Hi all, This is my sister's proposition: http://origami.bieszczady.pl/images/The_Lamb_Da.png What do you think? It looks like a skittle with a baby bonnet. C'est mignon, mais ce n'est pas la guerre as Pierre Bosquet almost said. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Yea, it's cute. I don't like the formula, though: \x - x + x is just too trivial and not very Haskellish. Something higher order is the minimum requirement, IMO. The original (lambda knights) formula was cool: the fixed point operator is directly related to recursion, which is reflected in the picture that contains itself; note also that defining this operator requires an untyped language, so this fits LISP quite well (but not Haskell). I would go with something like ! forall A B. A - B, saying that type casting under the C-H isomorphism is a lie and therefore we all must avoid it :D, but I don't like the ! in front of it. Just my 2 cents. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
I think the artwork is nice, but I am not sure that a lamb is an appropriate mascot for Haskell. A mascot is supposed to represent characteristics, emotions, or desires that a particular group of people aspire to have, be like, etc. To outsiders, it provides a quick way to see if it might be a group they would like to belong to, and for insiders, it helps strengthen the bond and group identity by reminding them what they stand for. So far, the only justification I have noticed for why a lamb would represent Haskell users is that there is a pun about lambda's -- which only makes sense if you know English. Sheep are generally thought of as: - weak and needing protection - easily lead astray - being lead to the slaughter - dumb and easily lost Not sure those are traits that Haskeller's generally aspire to have. I think Haskeller's like Haskell because it is: - elegant - sophisticated - reliable - robust Haskeller's tend to be people who are curious. Pioneers who are willing to go off the beaten path in search of something better. People who are willing to evaluate something based on its merits rather than the mere approval of the mainstream. People who aspire to create elegant, beautiful code. People looking to better their skills, even if they don't use Haskell for most of their coding. And there is definitely a pragmatic aspect. Part of the appeal of Haskell is that it can actually be used for many real world applications and can often do the job better. The fact that you can use it to deliver more reliable and robust code in less time, is a very real and tangible benefit. Here are some suggestions of my own. I am not really excited about any of them either -- but they give some examples of how I think a mascot might work: - owl: traditionally thought of as 'wise'. Known for their keen (in)sight. Of course, some cultures believe they are a bad omen and a sign of impending death.. - honey badger - can't beat that for 'robust' and 'fearless', http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPKlryXwmXk - james bond - he's sophisticated, reliable, and he does it with 'class'. hahah, more silly puns :p Of course, he is also not public domain :) Plus, it is too male oriented. In summary, a mascot is supposed to elicit an emotional response from people and help create a bond. To do that, it needs to provide emotional leadership and say that, if you use Haskell, you can be like X. That doesn't it mean it can't be cute. People do tend to bond easily to cute things (like kittens!). But I don't think cute is enough. I also don't think that representing 'features' of Haskell, like 'laziness' or 'higher order' is the right core appeal either. That is too mental -- not enough emotion. Those things can, of course, be represented in the depiction of the mascot. Nothing wrong with cleverly hiding lamba's and _|_ in the picture. But, for example, saying that Haskell is 'lazy' so we should pick a sloth, is not really a good choice, IMO. - jeremy On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:01 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com wrote: I liked Go's mascot, and I figure it couldn't hurt to have our own. I spent the past hour making this: http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png What do you think? -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Jeremy Shaw jer...@n-heptane.com wrote: - honey badger - can't beat that for 'robust' and 'fearless', http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPKlryXwmXk i think you were referring to this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7pGZudN8rE (nsfw... almost) i +1 a honey badger for haskell. i'm a newb and it rocks!! hex -- * my blog is cooler than yours: http://serialhex.github.com * The wise man said: Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. * As a programmer, it is your job to put yourself out of business. What you do today can be automated tomorrow. ~Doug McIlroy --- CFO: “What happens if we train people and they leave?” CTO: “What if we don’t and they stay?” ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
John Meacham j...@repetae.net writes: People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the What about types? This is a distinguishing feature from many of the other lambda-users out there, isn't \lambda_\tau used to signify that? -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Apart from the whole big discussion about an official mascot for Haskell, I for one am SURELY adopting Da, the Lamb from now on on my desktop background and on the lid of my laptop! :D I think some cute animal to connect with is something nice to us, as a community :) Could you imagine Linux without Tux?! Now I cannot imagine Haskell without the Lamb Da. João Paulo Pizani Flor joaopiz...@gmail.com Computer Science Federal University of Santa Catarina - Brazil On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Ketil Malde ke...@malde.org wrote: John Meacham j...@repetae.net writes: People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the What about types? This is a distinguishing feature from many of the other lambda-users out there, isn't \lambda_\tau used to signify that? -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 08:18:04PM -0800, John Meacham wrote: People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. If we want to emphasize the lazyness, why not a sloth instead of a lamb? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth - is this cute or what ;-) jm2c. Unfortunatelly my drawing skills suck I am unable to come up with a concrete logo. But maybe somebody else is gifted to do so. Greetings Alex signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:28:47AM +0100, Alexander Bernauer wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 08:18:04PM -0800, John Meacham wrote: People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. If we want to emphasize the lazyness, why not a sloth instead of a lamb? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth - is this cute or what ;-) Sloths are not lazy, they are just slow. I doubt that's the impression we want to give of Haskell. =) -Brent ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 16/11/2011 04:50 AM, heathmatlock wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:18 PM, John Meacham j...@repetae.net mailto:j...@repetae.net wrote: People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The 'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits every type. The combination of which is very powerful. John I would have to think about this a bit longer, but here's the symbol reworked onto the helmet: http://i.imgur.com/ZziGQ.png If you're going to draw a piece of graphics, why use ASCII workarounds like _|_, when you can use the real thing (i.e., ⊥)? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:22 PM, Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: On 16/11/2011 04:50 AM, heathmatlock wrote: If you're going to draw a piece of graphics, why use ASCII workarounds like _|_, when you can use the real thing (i.e., ⊥)? Noted, will change. Are we going to have a contest for a mascot? -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Last time to upload images for a long time, the break is here and I have work to do! I got a bit tired of explaining that it's a lamb, and not something similar to a rat, so I made the face less abstract. My little niece liked it better than the old one for some reason. Here's some images I threw together, much more left to add to the environments: http://imgur.com/a/niiTF#0 Anywho, I'll quit spamming about the mascot until someone decides to create a poll. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The 'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits every type. The combination of which is very powerful. Yeah, but Lamb Bottom doesn't work. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
John Meacham j...@repetae.net wrote: People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The 'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits every type. The combination of which is very powerful. I like the idea, even though personally I don't care that much. I think the phrase being lazy with class could be put into the design of a mascot. For Haskell (forgive me for that term) marketing purposes a mascot would definitely help. But I think, despite the well-founded denotational semantics of Haskell, bottom does not play that much of a role. Greets, Ertugrul -- nightmare = unsafePerformIO (getWrongWife = sex) http://ertes.de/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 16 Nov 2011, at 05:18, John Meacham wrote: People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The 'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits every type. The combination of which is very powerful. The mascot already represents the lambda, so all that is needed is to show off its _|_. Hans ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 16 Nov 2011, at 08:46, Ertugrul Soeylemez wrote: But I think, despite the well-founded denotational semantics of Haskell, bottom does not play that much of a role. There is one? Where? Last time I looked (a while ago, admittedly) there was no denotational (or any formal) semantics for Haskell. - lots of stuff for fragments of Haskell-like languages or parts of Haskell, but not a full proper definitive semantics for *Haskell*, as found in the wild... Looking at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Denotational_semantics the first footnote states In fact, there are no written down and complete denotational semantics of Haskell. This would be a tedious task void of additional insight and we happily embrace the folklore and common sense semantics. However, if you have a proof-based tool used for reasoning about Haskell programs in a safety-critical environment, you might just need to do this tedious task, particularly in order to show your proof rules sound. - has anyone in that area done this? is it available ? Is there a definitive Operational Semantics? Axiomatic? PS - I love the mascot - thanks Heath ! Greets, Ertugrul -- nightmare = unsafePerformIO (getWrongWife = sex) http://ertes.de/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe Andrew Butterfield Tel: +353-1-896-2517 Fax: +353-1-677-2204 Lero@TCD, Head of Foundations Methods Research Group Director of Teaching and Learning - Undergraduate, School of Computer Science and Statistics, Room G.39, O'Reilly Institute, Trinity College, University of Dublin http://www.scss.tcd.ie/Andrew.Butterfield/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
The fact that nobody bothered to write one down doesn't mean there isn't one. Отправлено с iPhone Nov 16, 2011, в 13:07, Andrew Butterfield andrew.butterfi...@cs.tcd.ie написал(а): On 16 Nov 2011, at 08:46, Ertugrul Soeylemez wrote: But I think, despite the well-founded denotational semantics of Haskell, bottom does not play that much of a role. There is one? Where? Last time I looked (a while ago, admittedly) there was no denotational (or any formal) semantics for Haskell. - lots of stuff for fragments of Haskell-like languages or parts of Haskell, but not a full proper definitive semantics for *Haskell*, as found in the wild... Looking at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Denotational_semantics the first footnote states In fact, there are no written down and complete denotational semantics of Haskell. This would be a tedious task void of additional insight and we happily embrace the folklore and common sense semantics. However, if you have a proof-based tool used for reasoning about Haskell programs in a safety-critical environment, you might just need to do this tedious task, particularly in order to show your proof rules sound. - has anyone in that area done this? is it available ? Is there a definitive Operational Semantics? Axiomatic? PS - I love the mascot - thanks Heath ! Greets, Ertugrul -- nightmare = unsafePerformIO (getWrongWife = sex) http://ertes.de/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe Andrew Butterfield Tel: +353-1-896-2517 Fax: +353-1-677-2204 Lero@TCD, Head of Foundations Methods Research Group Director of Teaching and Learning - Undergraduate, School of Computer Science and Statistics, Room G.39, O'Reilly Institute, Trinity College, University of Dublin http://www.scss.tcd.ie/Andrew.Butterfield/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 16 November 2011 05:18, John Meacham j...@repetae.net wrote: Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The 'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits every type. The combination of which is very powerful. Is ⊥ the right symbol to express the non-strict evaluation of the language? Is it true that non-strict evaluation requires that ⊥ inhabits every type? In other words: why can't there exist a non-strict total language (probably having some form of coinductive types)? Cheers, Bas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Maybe it's just me, but I've thought that being non-strict just means that it's possible for a function to produce some value even if it's argument doesn't; in other words, that it's possible to have f (_|_) ≠ (_|_). If there was no such thing as (_|_), what would non-strictness mean? On 16 Nov 2011, at 13:46, Bas van Dijk wrote: On 16 November 2011 05:18, John Meacham j...@repetae.net wrote: Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The 'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits every type. The combination of which is very powerful. Is ⊥ the right symbol to express the non-strict evaluation of the language? Is it true that non-strict evaluation requires that ⊥ inhabits every type? In other words: why can't there exist a non-strict total language (probably having some form of coinductive types)? Cheers, Bas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Am 16.11.2011 10:07, schrieb Andrew Butterfield: On 16 Nov 2011, at 08:46, Ertugrul Soeylemez wrote: But I think, despite the well-founded denotational semantics of Haskell, bottom does not play that much of a role. There is one? Where? Last time I looked (a while ago, admittedly) there was no denotational (or any formal) semantics for Haskell. - lots of stuff for fragments of Haskell-like languages or parts of Haskell, but not a full proper definitive semantics for *Haskell*, as found in the wild... Looking at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Denotational_semantics the first footnote states In fact, there are no written down and complete denotational semantics of Haskell. This would be a tedious task void of additional insight and we happily embrace the folklore and common sense semantics. However, if you have a proof-based tool used for reasoning about Haskell programs in a safety-critical environment, you might just need to do this tedious task, particularly in order to show your proof rules sound. - has anyone in that area done this? is it available ? Is there a definitive Operational Semantics? Axiomatic? http://verify.rwth-aachen.de/fp09 The lecture is about reducing (simple) Haskell to the lambda calculus (denotational semantics) and then showing the operational semantics of the untyped lambda calculus. It is amazing that a practical language can be reduced to the lambda calculus so easily. It made me into a Haskell programmer. They also use this practically in a Java tool to prove termination of Haskell programs. It is mentioned in the last hcar under Automated Termination Analyzer for Haskell. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 11/16/2011 01:01 AM, heathmatlock wrote: I liked Go's mascot, and I figure it couldn't hurt to have our own. I spent the past hour making this: http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png awesome. It's really nice, -- Vincent ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 16 November 2011 11:05, MigMit miguelim...@yandex.ru wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I've thought that being non-strict just means that it's possible for a function to produce some value even if it's argument doesn't; in other words, that it's possible to have f (_|_) ≠ (_|_). If there was no such thing as (_|_), what would non-strictness mean? Thanks, non-strictness is indeed defined using ⊥ like you mentioned. I think I was confusing non-strict evaluation with coinduction. They have the same advantages but the latter is less powerful but safer than the former. Bas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
I like the idea of a mascot. I like the idea of a lamb called Da, as most of Haskell's strength comes from it's closeness to pure lambda calculus. A few things I'd like to see in a mascot: - Simple. You should be able to draw it in a few seconds. - Look good in black and white. - Have obvious features so it is identifiable from a distance. - Be a little bit cute. I don't see why ⊥ has to be featured. ⊥ means a computation can terminate without returning a value. That is a flaw, not a strength. If a computation may fail, return a Maybe or Either String. If a computation might not terminate, let it not terminate and I can find out why with my debugger. That covers all the use cases of ⊥. It also undermines the type system as beginners often write functions which return ⊥ where they should either be returning a Maybe or Either String, or expressing the violated precondition in the type system so it can be tested at compile time. What am I missing? On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Bas van Dijk v.dijk@gmail.com wrote: On 16 November 2011 11:05, MigMit miguelim...@yandex.ru wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I've thought that being non-strict just means that it's possible for a function to produce some value even if it's argument doesn't; in other words, that it's possible to have f (_|_) ≠ (_|_). If there was no such thing as (_|_), what would non-strictness mean? Thanks, non-strictness is indeed defined using ⊥ like you mentioned. I think I was confusing non-strict evaluation with coinduction. They have the same advantages but the latter is less powerful but safer than the former. Bas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Do you mind some ... how to say ... offside comments? 1. The Curry Da mascot looks like a penguin disguised as a lamb. I have nothing against penguins ! 2. Da, da, konech'no, mais, Signori und Demoiselles, do you realize that lamb is an English word, and we should think about our multilingual society. with our agneaux and other Karakuls. You will have problems with the translation of the mascot into German, and some may find some analogies with another image: http://www.chrisrusak.com/images/11-013_small.jpg called Ein liebliches Lämmlein zu Tod (after Des Knaben Wunderhorn, in the last part of Mahler 4th Symphony). 3. On the other hand, from the cultural point of view, this is a very good idea, and quite international, everybody knows Lamb Curry (Rogan Josh): http://www.route79.com/food/rogan-josh.htm 4. It is incredible, how this mascot inspired a long, long discussion about the Bottom. Now, Bottom is important ! Most French politicians speak only about that (well, at least one of them doesn't speak, but prefers practical exercises...), but I confess that I am a little lost. Anyway, I learned something. For example, that what is strictly forbidden, is lazily allowed. Best regards Jerzy Karczmarczuk Caen, France. (25 km from the Oldest Comic Strip in the World, 1000 years and progressing) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
You're probably missing the fact that it's much harder to understand how the Haskell program works without (_|_). I've seen lots of questions like why doesn't my recursion work that could be answered simply as because your function is strict, so (_|_) is it's minimal fixpoint. Отправлено с iPhone Nov 16, 2011, в 15:31, Jesse Schalken jesseschal...@gmail.com написал(а): I like the idea of a mascot. I like the idea of a lamb called Da, as most of Haskell's strength comes from it's closeness to pure lambda calculus. A few things I'd like to see in a mascot: - Simple. You should be able to draw it in a few seconds. - Look good in black and white. - Have obvious features so it is identifiable from a distance. - Be a little bit cute. I don't see why ⊥ has to be featured. ⊥ means a computation can terminate without returning a value. That is a flaw, not a strength. If a computation may fail, return a Maybe or Either String. If a computation might not terminate, let it not terminate and I can find out why with my debugger. That covers all the use cases of ⊥. It also undermines the type system as beginners often write functions which return ⊥ where they should either be returning a Maybe or Either String, or expressing the violated precondition in the type system so it can be tested at compile time. What am I missing? On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Bas van Dijk v.dijk@gmail.com wrote: On 16 November 2011 11:05, MigMit miguelim...@yandex.ru wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I've thought that being non-strict just means that it's possible for a function to produce some value even if it's argument doesn't; in other words, that it's possible to have f (_|_) ≠ (_|_). If there was no such thing as (_|_), what would non-strictness mean? Thanks, non-strictness is indeed defined using ⊥ like you mentioned. I think I was confusing non-strict evaluation with coinduction. They have the same advantages but the latter is less powerful but safer than the former. Bas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
I like it! On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:01 AM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote: I liked Go's mascot, and I figure it couldn't hurt to have our own. I spent the past hour making this: http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png What do you think? -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk jerzy.karczmarc...@unicaen.fr wrote: Do you mind some ... how to say ... offside comments? 1. The Curry Da mascot looks like a penguin disguised as a lamb. I have nothing against penguins ! Hi Jerry, thanks for your input. The reason to have the the lamb standing up is just so he can be dressed, and it does have similarities to a penguin with its round belly, I suppose. 2. Da, da, konech'no, mais, Signori und Demoiselles, do you realize that lamb is an English word, and we should think about our multilingual society. with our agneaux and other Karakuls. You will have problems with the translation of the mascot into German, and some may find some analogies with another image: http://www.chrisrusak.com/**images/11-013_small.jpghttp://www.chrisrusak.com/images/11-013_small.jpg called Ein liebliches Lämmlein zu Tod (after Des Knaben Wunderhorn, in the last part of Mahler 4th Symphony). 3. On the other hand, from the cultural point of view, this is a very good idea, and quite international, everybody knows Lamb Curry (Rogan Josh): http://www.route79.com/food/**rogan-josh.htmhttp://www.route79.com/food/rogan-josh.htm Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and Da the lamb rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:06 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote: Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and Da the lamb rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide. Not trying to complicate things any further but perhaps it'd be better to have a contest on this, just like for the new logo. -- Giovanni ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Giovanni Tirloni gtirl...@sysdroid.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:06 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote: Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and Da the lamb rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide. Not trying to complicate things any further but perhaps it'd be better to have a contest on this, just like for the new logo. -- Giovanni You're probably right, I guess someone can create a new poll like the previous one: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?num_winners=1id=E_d21b0256a4fd5ed7algorithm=beatpath I took Jerzy's suggestions into consideration and made the lamb skinnier, maybe it looks less like a penguin now. http://imgur.com/4oeJz Thanks for the conversation so far, I'm glad there's interest in a mascot. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:49 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote: You're probably right, I guess someone can create a new poll like the previous one: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?num_winners=1id=E_d21b0256a4fd5ed7algorithm=beatpath I would create the poll for a mascot, but I think this is up to someone else. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 16 Nov 2011, at 23:49, heathmatlock wrote: I took Jerzy's suggestions into consideration and made the lamb skinnier, maybe it looks less like a penguin now. http://imgur.com/4oeJz A formula that is Haskell specific is \x - ⊥ ≠ ⊥ It is mentioned in the Haskell 98 Report, sec. 6.2, Strict Evaluation, p. 82. The LHS and RHS are different, because they can be distinguished by seq. Hans ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
I'm used to (on the east coast US) hearing lambda pronounced LAM-duh. Duh is an expression of something being stupid, so I don't know about Haskell having a mascot called Duh the Lamb! amindfv / Tom On Nov 16, 2011 4:06 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk jerzy.karczmarc...@unicaen.fr wrote: Do you mind some ... how to say ... offside comments? 1. The Curry Da mascot looks like a penguin disguised as a lamb. I have nothing against penguins ! Hi Jerry, thanks for your input. The reason to have the the lamb standing up is just so he can be dressed, and it does have similarities to a penguin with its round belly, I suppose. 2. Da, da, konech'no, mais, Signori und Demoiselles, do you realize that lamb is an English word, and we should think about our multilingual society. with our agneaux and other Karakuls. You will have problems with the translation of the mascot into German, and some may find some analogies with another image: http://www.chrisrusak.com/**images/11-013_small.jpghttp://www.chrisrusak.com/images/11-013_small.jpg called Ein liebliches Lämmlein zu Tod (after Des Knaben Wunderhorn, in the last part of Mahler 4th Symphony). 3. On the other hand, from the cultural point of view, this is a very good idea, and quite international, everybody knows Lamb Curry (Rogan Josh): http://www.route79.com/food/**rogan-josh.htmhttp://www.route79.com/food/rogan-josh.htm Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and Da the lamb rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
You're quite the artist. I wish I could make stuff like this. Here are some more ideas (based on titles of papers about Haskell): What about making the lamb wear a hair shirt? http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/haskell-retrospective/ Or maybe it could be lazy with class? Jason On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:49 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Giovanni Tirloni gtirl...@sysdroid.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:06 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote: Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and Da the lamb rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide. Not trying to complicate things any further but perhaps it'd be better to have a contest on this, just like for the new logo. -- Giovanni You're probably right, I guess someone can create a new poll like the previous one: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?num_winners=1id=E_d21b0256a4fd5ed7algorithm=beatpath I took Jerzy's suggestions into consideration and made the lamb skinnier, maybe it looks less like a penguin now. http://imgur.com/4oeJz Thanks for the conversation so far, I'm glad there's interest in a mascot. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Wonder what they'd make of bottom :) Maybe we can also incorporate some tongue-in-cheek tip-of-the-hat to Shakespeare : http://www.shakespearesantacruz.org/about/images/dream_34_thaler_web.jpg -deech On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Tom Murphy amin...@gmail.com wrote: I'm used to (on the east coast US) hearing lambda pronounced LAM-duh. Duh is an expression of something being stupid, so I don't know about Haskell having a mascot called Duh the Lamb! amindfv / Tom On Nov 16, 2011 4:06 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk jerzy.karczmarc...@unicaen.fr wrote: Do you mind some ... how to say ... offside comments? 1. The Curry Da mascot looks like a penguin disguised as a lamb. I have nothing against penguins ! Hi Jerry, thanks for your input. The reason to have the the lamb standing up is just so he can be dressed, and it does have similarities to a penguin with its round belly, I suppose. 2. Da, da, konech'no, mais, Signori und Demoiselles, do you realize that lamb is an English word, and we should think about our multilingual society. with our agneaux and other Karakuls. You will have problems with the translation of the mascot into German, and some may find some analogies with another image: http://www.chrisrusak.com/**images/11-013_small.jpghttp://www.chrisrusak.com/images/11-013_small.jpg called Ein liebliches Lämmlein zu Tod (after Des Knaben Wunderhorn, in the last part of Mahler 4th Symphony). 3. On the other hand, from the cultural point of view, this is a very good idea, and quite international, everybody knows Lamb Curry (Rogan Josh): http://www.route79.com/food/**rogan-josh.htmhttp://www.route79.com/food/rogan-josh.htm Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and Da the lamb rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 16 November 2011 12:01, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com wrote: I liked Go's mascot, and I figure it couldn't hurt to have our own. I spent the past hour making this: http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png What do you think? Um do we _really_ need a mascot? And no offence to your artistic abilities, but even if we did, I don't see how a lamb relates to Haskell :/ -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
I don't see how a lamb relates to Haskell :/ The lamb is named Da. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 20:06, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: Um do we _really_ need a mascot? And no offence to your artistic abilities, but even if we did, I don't see how a lamb relates to Haskell :/ Lamb-da, obviously. -- brandon s allbery allber...@gmail.com wandering unix systems administrator (available) (412) 475-9364 vm/sms ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: Um do we _really_ need a mascot? I don't think a programming community every really needs a mascot, just nice to have. And no offence to your artistic abilities, but even if we did, I don't see how a lamb relates to Haskell :/ The lamb is a play on lambda calculus. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons dofp.hask...@gmail.com wrote: I don't see how a lamb relates to Haskell :/ The lamb is named Da. That works too. I couldn't resist: http://i.imgur.com/5222B.png See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Lambda_Calculus for reference. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
I thought we already had a mascot? http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/attachments/20090401/9fb8fa05/haskell-mascot.jpg :p - jeremy On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:01 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com wrote: I liked Go's mascot, and I figure it couldn't hurt to have our own. I spent the past hour making this: http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png What do you think? -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The 'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits every type. The combination of which is very powerful. John ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On 11-11-15 08:01 PM, heathmatlock wrote: http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png Curry had a little lamb, little lamb, little lamb... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:18 PM, John Meacham j...@repetae.net wrote: People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The 'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits every type. The combination of which is very powerful. John I would have to think about this a bit longer, but here's the symbol reworked onto the helmet: http://i.imgur.com/ZziGQ.png -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Da the lamb, I like that. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
Last image for the night, http://i.imgur.com/CE9Tk.png On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:03 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote: Da the lamb, I like that. -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
2011/11/16 heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com: Last image for the night, http://i.imgur.com/CE9Tk.png Great! I like it very much. Best, Karol Samborski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
In general, I like the idea of having a mascot, and think that something along these lines will be great. Cheers, Pedro On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 01:01, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com wrote: I liked Go's mascot, and I figure it couldn't hurt to have our own. I spent the past hour making this: http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png What do you think? -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot
I vote for an invisible mascot, all there is to see is the orange speech bubble with smart code ;-) Liebe Grüße ben On 16 Nov 2011, at 08:45, José Pedro Magalhães j...@cs.uu.nl wrote: In general, I like the idea of having a mascot, and think that something along these lines will be great. Cheers, Pedro On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 01:01, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com wrote: I liked Go's mascot, and I figure it couldn't hurt to have our own. I spent the past hour making this: http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png What do you think? -- Heath Matlock +1 256 274 4225 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
