Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS
Thank you for that comment sir! Couldn't agree more. Haiku is a nice example and can be a source of inspiration indeed. The goal is to have our own graphics stack that can work on both very resource limited or legacy systems and high resolution displays and without the requirement to have hardware acceleration. Also to provide some interesting features that you will possibly not find elsewhere. We have one big advantage: we can look back and learn and then start designing everything from scratch... I know we're not there yet, but we'll get there. Regards, Jiri -- Původní e-mail -- Od: g...@novadsp.com Komu: 'HelenOS development mailing list' Datum: 19. 12. 2018 18:59:12 Předmět: Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS "Greetings all HelenOS admirer and occasional experimenter here. Re windowing systems: There is a much better exemplar, much closer to hand, in the Haiku project. Backporting 30(?) years of Linux/Unix/Windows cruft is a terrible use of scarce resources. Much better to get the basics into place - like knowing a networked VM instance will actually interop with other systems on that network. Or, how to port HelenOS to 'smaller' machines. I'd really like to see a core that would boot a multi-core ARM/ARM64 system ... for embedded/appliance work this could be fantastic stuff. Just saying If anyone has specific ideas about resourcing in these contexts please send me an email. Best to all Jerry -Original Message- From: HelenOS-devel On Behalf Of Dmitrij V Sent: 19 December 2018 16:28 To: HelenOS development mailing list Subject: Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS > But beware that it would be a lot of work. For example, GTK supports > various backends (Windows, X11 etc.) and the work of porting the > library means adding a whole new backend. Hello Vojtech. But would much less, if to know how once written driver for linux to port into HelenOS (with redesign for the Helen requerements kernel specifics of course). Would be cool if someone with experience of the HelenOS developing wrote alike step-by-step manual... Next step: to write Graphical System, e.g XWindows, but without low-level requests to the server show/hide/top basic rectangles, - directly to have thread safe c++(or C) interface for creating surfaces for drawing. Last step: to port GTK, FLTK, WxWidgets to the HelenOS, - after the OS will be colonized by existing programms. The sense: High quality developers gives ways to do things for less quality programmers (righter will be to say: other programming orientation) - introducing into their competention area for other programmers. For newly arrived programmers to have intro: Do you want to support your HW for the HelenOS ? - see this manual, do work, send to the team the patch ... Sorry for my wishes :) -- the best regards 2018-12-19 20:21 GMT+05:00, Vojtech Horky : > Hello, Dmitrij, > > I think your assumptions about HelenOS are too optimistic ;-) > > st 19. 12. 2018 v 11:50 odesílatel Dmitrij V napsal: >> To write HW GPU drivers by scratch is titanic work ! - easier to stay >> in linux space without attempts to look to other sides(OS). I had >> thinked to adapt libdrm for HelenOS (nativelly written for linux). > > To do that, HelenOS would have to support the Linux API that is needed > (e.g. various ioctls you mentioned). But we support only POSIX API for > end-user applications (and only a small subset). > > Furthermore, the HelenOS device drivers would have to provide the > functionality that is (in case of libdrm) provided by Linux (i.e. the > called side of ioctl). And in this sense, HelenOS has only rudimentary > support for graphical output. > >> I had looked for small and fast OS, with supporting modern compiller >> (GCC is preferred) & c++ standarts for programming for that, for port >> to there a light gui library for writting modern looked gui etc... > > You are in the right place and it would certainly be nice to have some > 3rd party GUI library ported :-). > > But beware that it would be a lot of work. For example, GTK supports > various backends (Windows, X11 etc.) and the work of porting the > library means adding a whole new backend. > > Hope this helps clarify some confusion :-) > > Cheers, > - Vojtech > > >> >> -- >> the best regards >> >> 2018-12-19 14:30 GMT+05:00, Jiri Svoboda : >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > if you are serious about contributing, I suggest reading the code >> > carefully >> > >> > and starting with something really simple. If this is supposed to >> > be some kind of a plan to introduce HW acceleration support to >> > HelenOS, then
Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS
Hi Dmitrij, "To write HW GPU drivers by scratch is titanic work ! - easier to stay in linux space without attempts to look to other sides(OS). I had thinked to adapt libdrm for HelenOS (nativelly written for linux)." Libdrm is a library that, in Linux, allows a 3D driver, residing in user space, to submit commands to GPU pipeline via a driver, residing in the Linux kernel. It is but a small piece of the DRI direct rendering infrastructure, that allows for 3D-accelerated X-Windows to work. The 3D part of the driver is implemented in Mesa. Porting DRI to HelenOS is no small job either. Also in the current state of the graphics stack I think HW acceleration is the last of our concerns... "" "Sorry for my incompetention about HW programming. My level of programming is not such high as you have... Kernel space programming is very hard, thanks for your job - for HeleOS is exist..." Kernel = hard, userspace=easy? Doesn't work like that, a 3D driver in HelenOS is not easier to write than in Linux just because it resides in user space, right? People usually think writing a text editor is easy and writing memory management is hard, but it can be quite the opposite. Good application design is hard. New time contributors will often pick something like the shell to work on and they don't realize that while adding support for new HW platform is mostly straightforward and requires no design, applications must be designed (user interaction) and that's where opinions about how the OS should look and feel come to play. And if you try to make HelenOS look like Linux, you will make me unhappy. "" "I had looked for small and fast OS, with supporting modern compiller (GCC is preferred) & c++ standarts for programming for that, for port to there a light gui library for writting modern looked gui etc..." I am not quite sure why you wanted to do this without asking whether it makes sense / is desirable for that particular OS, so I'll just assume this is "something you want to do for the heck of it". The plan for HelenOS is to develop our own GUI library for our native applications (I would consider the current one a prototype, though). Porting existing GUI libraries such as GTK+, Qt, Fltk would make sense in order to ease porting existing GUI applications. Porting an existing lightweight GUI library should be feasible. I would, however, pick one that does not require HW acceleration/OpenGL otherwise you are just asking for pain. Also note that a big rework of the graphics stack is in planning stage, so be prepared for change... If you asked me, porting SDL2 or SDL1.x to HelenOS (without HW acceleration) would be a project that would be - much simpler - much more useful because it's just about creating a window with a canvas and it would ease porting of applications like Qemu or Dosbox (you could just compile them instead of having to add HelenOS-specific support to each of them). Cheers, Jiri " -- the best regards 2018-12-19 14:30 GMT+05:00, Jiri Svoboda : > > Hi, > > > > > if you are serious about contributing, I suggest reading the code carefully > > and starting with something really simple. If this is supposed to be some > kind of a plan to introduce HW acceleration support to HelenOS, then it's > obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. You've just picked up > some random Linux packages related to graphics and suggested they should be > > ported. Have you even an idea what those packages are/do? How would they > fit > in HelenOS graphics stack? > > > > > > -Jiri > > ------ Původní e-mail -- > Od: Dmitrij V > Komu: HelenOS development mailing list > Datum: 19. 12. 2018 6:20:46 > Předmět: Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS > "Hello ! > > Sorry for my delayed post... > > I had some time for researching the "Helen OS & GPU drivers", > there are all done already: > > 1) libdrm (needs to port) > (no deep digging, something like requerements for posix ioctl ...) > > 2) svgalib (needs to port, native is linux) (it has support opengl > interface) > > - > regards > > ___ > HelenOS-devel mailing list > HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > " ___ HelenOS-devel mailing list HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel "___ HelenOS-devel mailing list HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel
Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS
Greetings all HelenOS admirer and occasional experimenter here. Re windowing systems: There is a much better exemplar, much closer to hand, in the Haiku project. Backporting 30(?) years of Linux/Unix/Windows cruft is a terrible use of scarce resources. Much better to get the basics into place - like knowing a networked VM instance will actually interop with other systems on that network. Or, how to port HelenOS to 'smaller' machines. I'd really like to see a core that would boot a multi-core ARM/ARM64 system ... for embedded/appliance work this could be fantastic stuff. Just saying If anyone has specific ideas about resourcing in these contexts please send me an email. Best to all Jerry -Original Message- From: HelenOS-devel On Behalf Of Dmitrij V Sent: 19 December 2018 16:28 To: HelenOS development mailing list Subject: Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS > But beware that it would be a lot of work. For example, GTK supports > various backends (Windows, X11 etc.) and the work of porting the > library means adding a whole new backend. Hello Vojtech. But would much less, if to know how once written driver for linux to port into HelenOS (with redesign for the Helen requerements kernel specifics of course). Would be cool if someone with experience of the HelenOS developing wrote alike step-by-step manual... Next step: to write Graphical System, e.g XWindows, but without low-level requests to the server show/hide/top basic rectangles, - directly to have thread safe c++(or C) interface for creating surfaces for drawing. Last step: to port GTK, FLTK, WxWidgets to the HelenOS, - after the OS will be colonized by existing programms. The sense: High quality developers gives ways to do things for less quality programmers (righter will be to say: other programming orientation) - introducing into their competention area for other programmers. For newly arrived programmers to have intro: Do you want to support your HW for the HelenOS ? - see this manual, do work, send to the team the patch ... Sorry for my wishes :) -- the best regards 2018-12-19 20:21 GMT+05:00, Vojtech Horky : > Hello, Dmitrij, > > I think your assumptions about HelenOS are too optimistic ;-) > > st 19. 12. 2018 v 11:50 odesílatel Dmitrij V napsal: >> To write HW GPU drivers by scratch is titanic work ! - easier to stay >> in linux space without attempts to look to other sides(OS). I had >> thinked to adapt libdrm for HelenOS (nativelly written for linux). > > To do that, HelenOS would have to support the Linux API that is needed > (e.g. various ioctls you mentioned). But we support only POSIX API for > end-user applications (and only a small subset). > > Furthermore, the HelenOS device drivers would have to provide the > functionality that is (in case of libdrm) provided by Linux (i.e. the > called side of ioctl). And in this sense, HelenOS has only rudimentary > support for graphical output. > >> I had looked for small and fast OS, with supporting modern compiller >> (GCC is preferred) & c++ standarts for programming for that, for port >> to there a light gui library for writting modern looked gui etc... > > You are in the right place and it would certainly be nice to have some > 3rd party GUI library ported :-). > > But beware that it would be a lot of work. For example, GTK supports > various backends (Windows, X11 etc.) and the work of porting the > library means adding a whole new backend. > > Hope this helps clarify some confusion :-) > > Cheers, > - Vojtech > > >> >> -- >> the best regards >> >> 2018-12-19 14:30 GMT+05:00, Jiri Svoboda : >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > if you are serious about contributing, I suggest reading the code >> > carefully >> > >> > and starting with something really simple. If this is supposed to >> > be some kind of a plan to introduce HW acceleration support to >> > HelenOS, then it's obvious you have no idea what you are talking >> > about. You've just picked up some random Linux packages related to >> > graphics and suggested they should be >> > >> > ported. Have you even an idea what those packages are/do? How would >> > they fit in HelenOS graphics stack? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -Jiri >> > >> > -- Původní e-mail -- >> > Od: Dmitrij V >> > Komu: HelenOS development mailing list >> > >> > Datum: 19. 12. 2018 6:20:46 >> > Předmět: Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the >> > HelenOS "Hello ! >> > >> > S
Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS
> But beware that it would be a lot of work. For example, GTK supports > various backends (Windows, X11 etc.) and the work of porting the > library means adding a whole new backend. Hello Vojtech. But would much less, if to know how once written driver for linux to port into HelenOS (with redesign for the Helen requerements kernel specifics of course). Would be cool if someone with experience of the HelenOS developing wrote alike step-by-step manual... Next step: to write Graphical System, e.g XWindows, but without low-level requests to the server show/hide/top basic rectangles, - directly to have thread safe c++(or C) interface for creating surfaces for drawing. Last step: to port GTK, FLTK, WxWidgets to the HelenOS, - after the OS will be colonized by existing programms. The sense: High quality developers gives ways to do things for less quality programmers (righter will be to say: other programming orientation) - introducing into their competention area for other programmers. For newly arrived programmers to have intro: Do you want to support your HW for the HelenOS ? - see this manual, do work, send to the team the patch ... Sorry for my wishes :) -- the best regards 2018-12-19 20:21 GMT+05:00, Vojtech Horky : > Hello, Dmitrij, > > I think your assumptions about HelenOS are too optimistic ;-) > > st 19. 12. 2018 v 11:50 odesílatel Dmitrij V napsal: >> To write HW GPU drivers by scratch is titanic work ! - easier to stay >> in linux space without attempts to look to other sides(OS). I had >> thinked to adapt libdrm for HelenOS (nativelly written for linux). > > To do that, HelenOS would have to support the Linux API that is needed > (e.g. various ioctls you mentioned). But we support only POSIX API for > end-user applications (and only a small subset). > > Furthermore, the HelenOS device drivers would have to provide the > functionality that is (in case of libdrm) provided by Linux (i.e. the > called side of ioctl). And in this sense, HelenOS has only rudimentary > support for graphical output. > >> I had looked for small and fast OS, with supporting modern compiller >> (GCC is preferred) & c++ standarts for programming for that, for port >> to there a light gui library for writting modern looked gui etc... > > You are in the right place and it would certainly be nice to have some > 3rd party GUI library ported :-). > > But beware that it would be a lot of work. For example, GTK supports > various backends (Windows, X11 etc.) and the work of porting the > library means adding a whole new backend. > > Hope this helps clarify some confusion :-) > > Cheers, > - Vojtech > > >> >> -- >> the best regards >> >> 2018-12-19 14:30 GMT+05:00, Jiri Svoboda : >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > if you are serious about contributing, I suggest reading the code >> > carefully >> > >> > and starting with something really simple. If this is supposed to be >> > some >> > kind of a plan to introduce HW acceleration support to HelenOS, then >> > it's >> > obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. You've just picked >> > up >> > some random Linux packages related to graphics and suggested they should >> > be >> > >> > ported. Have you even an idea what those packages are/do? How would they >> > fit >> > in HelenOS graphics stack? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -Jiri >> > >> > -- Původní e-mail -- >> > Od: Dmitrij V >> > Komu: HelenOS development mailing list >> > Datum: 19. 12. 2018 6:20:46 >> > Předmět: Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the >> > HelenOS >> > "Hello ! >> > >> > Sorry for my delayed post... >> > >> > I had some time for researching the "Helen OS & GPU drivers", >> > there are all done already: >> > >> > 1) libdrm (needs to port) >> > (no deep digging, something like requerements for posix ioctl ...) >> > >> > 2) svgalib (needs to port, native is linux) (it has support opengl >> > interface) >> > >> > - >> > regards >> > >> > ___ >> > HelenOS-devel mailing list >> > HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz >> > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel >> > " >> >> ___ >> HelenOS-devel mailing list >> HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz >> http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > ___ > HelenOS-devel mailing list > HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > ___ HelenOS-devel mailing list HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel
Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS
Hello, Dmitrij, I think your assumptions about HelenOS are too optimistic ;-) st 19. 12. 2018 v 11:50 odesílatel Dmitrij V napsal: > To write HW GPU drivers by scratch is titanic work ! - easier to stay > in linux space without attempts to look to other sides(OS). I had > thinked to adapt libdrm for HelenOS (nativelly written for linux). To do that, HelenOS would have to support the Linux API that is needed (e.g. various ioctls you mentioned). But we support only POSIX API for end-user applications (and only a small subset). Furthermore, the HelenOS device drivers would have to provide the functionality that is (in case of libdrm) provided by Linux (i.e. the called side of ioctl). And in this sense, HelenOS has only rudimentary support for graphical output. > I had looked for small and fast OS, with supporting modern compiller > (GCC is preferred) & c++ standarts for programming for that, for port > to there a light gui library for writting modern looked gui etc... You are in the right place and it would certainly be nice to have some 3rd party GUI library ported :-). But beware that it would be a lot of work. For example, GTK supports various backends (Windows, X11 etc.) and the work of porting the library means adding a whole new backend. Hope this helps clarify some confusion :-) Cheers, - Vojtech > > -- > the best regards > > 2018-12-19 14:30 GMT+05:00, Jiri Svoboda : > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > if you are serious about contributing, I suggest reading the code carefully > > > > and starting with something really simple. If this is supposed to be some > > kind of a plan to introduce HW acceleration support to HelenOS, then it's > > obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. You've just picked up > > some random Linux packages related to graphics and suggested they should be > > > > ported. Have you even an idea what those packages are/do? How would they > > fit > > in HelenOS graphics stack? > > > > > > > > > > > > -Jiri > > > > -- Původní e-mail -- > > Od: Dmitrij V > > Komu: HelenOS development mailing list > > Datum: 19. 12. 2018 6:20:46 > > Předmět: Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS > > "Hello ! > > > > Sorry for my delayed post... > > > > I had some time for researching the "Helen OS & GPU drivers", > > there are all done already: > > > > 1) libdrm (needs to port) > > (no deep digging, something like requerements for posix ioctl ...) > > > > 2) svgalib (needs to port, native is linux) (it has support opengl > > interface) > > > > - > > regards > > > > ___ > > HelenOS-devel mailing list > > HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz > > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > " > > ___ > HelenOS-devel mailing list > HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel ___ HelenOS-devel mailing list HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel
Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS
To write HW GPU drivers by scratch is titanic work ! - easier to stay in linux space without attempts to look to other sides(OS). I had thinked to adapt libdrm for HelenOS (nativelly written for linux). Sorry for my incompetention about HW programming. My level of programming is not such high as you have... Kernel space programming is very hard, thanks for your job - for HeleOS is exist... I had looked for small and fast OS, with supporting modern compiller (GCC is preferred) & c++ standarts for programming for that, for port to there a light gui library for writting modern looked gui etc... -- the best regards 2018-12-19 14:30 GMT+05:00, Jiri Svoboda : > > Hi, > > > > > if you are serious about contributing, I suggest reading the code carefully > > and starting with something really simple. If this is supposed to be some > kind of a plan to introduce HW acceleration support to HelenOS, then it's > obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. You've just picked up > some random Linux packages related to graphics and suggested they should be > > ported. Have you even an idea what those packages are/do? How would they > fit > in HelenOS graphics stack? > > > > > > -Jiri > > -- Původní e-mail -- > Od: Dmitrij V > Komu: HelenOS development mailing list > Datum: 19. 12. 2018 6:20:46 > Předmět: Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS > "Hello ! > > Sorry for my delayed post... > > I had some time for researching the "Helen OS & GPU drivers", > there are all done already: > > 1) libdrm (needs to port) > (no deep digging, something like requerements for posix ioctl ...) > > 2) svgalib (needs to port, native is linux) (it has support opengl > interface) > > - > regards > > ___ > HelenOS-devel mailing list > HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > " ___ HelenOS-devel mailing list HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel
Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS
Hi, if you are serious about contributing, I suggest reading the code carefully and starting with something really simple. If this is supposed to be some kind of a plan to introduce HW acceleration support to HelenOS, then it's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. You've just picked up some random Linux packages related to graphics and suggested they should be ported. Have you even an idea what those packages are/do? How would they fit in HelenOS graphics stack? -Jiri -- Původní e-mail -- Od: Dmitrij V Komu: HelenOS development mailing list Datum: 19. 12. 2018 6:20:46 Předmět: Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS "Hello ! Sorry for my delayed post... I had some time for researching the "Helen OS & GPU drivers", there are all done already: 1) libdrm (needs to port) (no deep digging, something like requerements for posix ioctl ...) 2) svgalib (needs to port, native is linux) (it has support opengl interface) - regards ___ HelenOS-devel mailing list HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel "___ HelenOS-devel mailing list HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel
Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS
Hello ! Sorry for my delayed post... I had some time for researching the "Helen OS & GPU drivers", there are all done already: 1) libdrm (needs to port) (no deep digging, something like requerements for posix ioctl ...) 2) svgalib (needs to port, native is linux) (it has support opengl interface) - regards ___ HelenOS-devel mailing list HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel
Re: [HelenOS-devel] I need some tips with coding for the HelenOS
Hi Dmitrij, On 12/6/18 2:38 AM, Dmitrij V wrote: > Current iso image for amd64 did not shown a GUI in my VirtualBox, only > promt Shell > (for real hardware is not tested yet).. this should work for example with the nightly amd64 ISO: http://ci.helenos.org/latest/amd64/helenos-amd64.iso You may try to tweak the settings of your VBox guest towards more basic configuration, even though I am not aware of anything that would prevent the GUI from working. > (I have integrated video card 'intel' into motherboard, in linux is > i915 driver).. HelenOS can currently make use only of the VESA framebuffer. > Please point me to a tutorial for writing drivers for the HelenOS, > I have no expirence with writing the drivers, but I will try it )) Here you go: http://www.helenos.org/wiki/DeviceDrivers > And point me to a system intarface for writing the GUI (header name etc..). Have a look at the vdemo application. Cheers, Jakub ___ HelenOS-devel mailing list HelenOS-devel@lists.modry.cz http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel
