Re: Searxes in Icecat

Hi Andreas, I'm not subscribed to help-guix, so I saw this only by chance. If you had filed a bug report, I would have seen it sooner. Andreas Enge wrote: > since a recent update to icecat-68.12.0-guix0-preview1 (I do not know > from which version), the "Searxes Third Party Request Blocker"

Re: Recipe for latest release of firefox?

Hi Christopher, Christopher Lemmer Webber writes: > Does someone have a recipe, or channel, for the latest release of > Firefox? > > Mark Weaver was doing an amazing job of patching icecat to be up to date > on security releases. Since nobody is doing that work currently, I'm a > bit worried

Re: Ho to hide settings on a new tab Icecat

Hello again, Earlier, I wrote: > zna...@disroot.org writes: > >> Hello! Need to set 'Search' and 'Top sites' blocks to the top of Icecat tab. >> But there is 'Privacy settings' block in the top, screen: >> http://0x0.st/zOid.png >> Please, how to hide or delete it at all? > > I don't know

Re: network-manager-openconnect setup

"Santana, Divan" writes: > Bonus points for anyone who knows why when I copy and paste into Emacs I > get these weird characters. > >588:24 2 (inferior-package->manifest-entry "network-manager-ope…" …) The weird characters above, "…", should be a "HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS" character "…"

Re: guix package conflict

Pierre Neidhardt writes: > Carlo Zancanaro writes: > >> It looks like `guix package -u` compares the version of the >> package, and only updates if the package's version has changed >> (and even then, only if it has increased). What leads you to believe this? I think you're mistaken, based

Re: Need help displaying Unicode fonts in Icecat

Hi Gary, Gary Johnson writes: >> Are you running Guix on top of another distribution? I had to add the >> veriable XDG_DATA_DIRS to the environment, specifically >> XDG_DATA_DIRS=$HOME/.guix-profile/share:/usr/share for Guix running on >> Debian. The variable was set automagically full Guix

Re: Ho to hide settings on a new tab Icecat

Hi, zna...@disroot.org writes: > Hello! Need to set 'Search' and 'Top sites' blocks to the top of Icecat tab. > But there is 'Privacy settings' block in the top, screen: > http://0x0.st/zOid.png > Please, how to hide or delete it at all? I don't know off-hand, but I would suggest asking the

Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP

Hello, guixuser writes: > Asking the new users to package what they want and suggesting > alternative applications; is like passively showing middle finger to > them. This idea seems to pop up from time to time, and I think it deserves a closer look. First of all, we're not asking you to do

Re: Compiling a linux kernel from git

Hi Chris, Christopher Lemmer Webber writes: > Thanks! I got things working by going the tarball route, though > slightly more indirectly than the approach you suggested here. What I > did was get the latest release-candidate tarball and list the patches I > specifically needed in the package

Re: Compiling a linux kernel from git

Hi Chris, I wrote earlier: > My first guess is that '/gnu/store/…-linux-next-…-checkout/include' > should not be in the C include path while compiling that file, but that > it's getting added. The difference might be due to the fact that the > 'source' in this case is a directory instead of a

Re: Compiling a linux kernel from git

Hi Chris, Christopher Lemmer Webber writes: > Unfortunately my laptop was failing and I needed to pick up a new one > asap before a conference I leave for tomorrow morning, so I bought one > off the shelf from a retail store. Also unfortunately, while the > hardware is supported in upstream

Re: Consider the package expr evaluates to.

Hi, zna...@disroot.org writes: > 'Expression is evaluated'?? > Maybe better is 'the package that matches expression'? No, that's definitely not right. That wording suggests some kind of pattern matching, which is not what's happening at all. Evaluation is a process that takes an expression

Re: grub with encrpted root no longer automatically loads luks

Hi Jack, Jack Hill writes: > I've noticed that recently (unfortunately, I don't know exactly when > it started), that grub no longer prompts me to enter my password to > unlock my root filesystem. FWIW, I also use an encrypted root filesystem on my Guix system, and I've updated Guix since you

Re: How to configure Xorg to use [proprietary] Sis 771 driver on Guix?

zna...@disroot.org writes: > Mark, this is my lspci, lsmod, guix describe: Can you share the contents of your /var/log/Xorg.0.log ? That should show us which video driver(s) were loaded and any relevant error messages. Mark

Re: How to configure Xorg to use [proprietary] Sis 771 driver on Guix?

Tobias Geerinckx-Rice writes: > Mark H Weaver wrote: >> Guix already has 'xf86-video-sis', and it's already included in >> %default-xorg-modules in (gnu services xorg). So, now we just need >> to >> find out why it's not working. > > Is this even the

Re: How to configure Xorg to use [proprietary] Sis 771 driver on Guix?

Hello, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice writes: > On a more positive note: have you looked at > > https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/xf86-video-sisimedia/ > (or https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/xf86-video-sis/)? Guix already has 'xf86-video-sis', and it's already included in %default-xorg-modules in

Re: Computer suspends even when I tell it not to

Hi Chris, Chris Marusich writes: > I've noticed that my Guix System computer suspends if I leave it alone > for a couple hours. It's plugged in. This is annoying, since sometimes > I want to SSH into this computer, and I can't do that if it's suspended. > > I don't understand why it suspends.

Re: IceCat from Guix all monospaced font – Summary

Zelphir Kaltstahl writes: > Ah it could be, that a package changed something in `~/.profile`. I will > check … No it still looks the same as before. Guix never modifies your ~/.profile. The relevant file is: ~/.guix-profile/etc/profile, which is generated each time you update your user

Re: Guix System 1.0: No audio

Hi sirgazil, sirgazil writes: > I installed the GNU system with GNOME using the ISO installer > (https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/guix/guix-system-install-1.0.0.x86_64-linux.iso.xz). > > When I play video or audio in the browser or in the desktop, I get no > audio. The volume controls in the browser

Re: GNOME Desktop

Hi Dexter, "Dexter Morgan" writes: >How can I use GNOME Core Applications >(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME_Core_Applications) that are >missing in Guix System? I am quite frusturated and disappointed with >the GNOME Desktop in Guix. I can't even use a music player or a >

Re: IceCat from Guix all monospaced font – Summary

Giovanni Biscuolo writes: > HWRoitzsch writes: > >> So apparently all that was needed after the steps suggested on the >> mailing list was a restart of my machine or possibly a re-login. > > may it be connected to the evironment? > > I guess you are using Guix System on bare metal or VM, I'm

Re: IceCat from Guix all monospaced font

Hi Zelphir, Zelphir Kaltstahl writes: > The problem is solved for me now. Would an "strace" still be helpful? I'm not sure. It depends on whether we're able to understand from your upcoming email what went wrong and how to fix it properly. > I will write another mail to the list, summarizing

Re: IceCat from Guix all monospaced font

Hi Zelphir, Zelphir Kaltstahl writes: > Today I installed GNU Icecat from Guix and everything works fine, except > for one thing: > > The whole Icecat UI uses a monospaced font and on every website > everything is monospaced. I've tried for hours to change fonts using > userChrome.css to no

Re: GuixSD on a laptop with Heads

Hi Jonathan, "Jonathan Frederickson" writes: > Hey - so I'm trying to get GuixSD running on a Thinkpad X230 running Heads. > (https://github.com/osresearch/heads) For some background: this system boots > into a Linux environment, has scripts that parse the GRUB config, and boots > into the

Re: sha256 hash mismatch for mozjs-38.2.1.rc0

Hi, Platoxia writes: > After successfully doing "guix pull" as root, GuixSD fails to update from > /gnu/store/nbpba96q5vjhr64c91s788109mj7f3y6-system (kernel 4.20.1) > to current with "guix system reconfigure" due to an sha256 hash mismatch > after downloading mozjs-38.2.1.rc0. > > I have

Re: 1) Lid Buttons 2) Stylus Input 3) Fingerprint Scanner

Hello again, "Raghav Gururajan" writes: > Ah I see. Thanks for raising the issue. Yes, we'll move on to "Stylus Input" > :) > > April 16, 2019 4:22 PM, "Mark H Weaver" wrote: > >> Hi Raghav, >> >> "Raghav Gururajan"

Re: Way to synchronize files like Dropbox

Please do not post instructions for installing nonfree software on official Guix project forums. Thanks, Mark Meiyo Peng writes: > You should not run non free software on your computer. But if you have > to use Dropbox for whatever reason, there is actually a way to run > Dropbox

Re: 1) Lid Buttons 2) Stylus Input 3) Fingerprint Scanner

Hi Raghav, "Raghav Gururajan" writes: > I made the changes you told me. Now the error is "guix system: error: > /etc/rg-secondary.scm:49:24: no value specified for service of type > 'fprintd'" Sorry, this looks like a genuine bug in Guix's fingerprint service, which was added relatively

Re: 1) Lid Buttons 2) Stylus Input 3) Fingerprint Scanner

Hi Raghav, "Raghav Gururajan" writes: > So my latest config is: > > (use-modules > (gnu) > (gnu system nss) > (gnu services fingerprint) > (use-service-modules desktop) > (use-package-modules certs gnome) [...] > For the above, the error is: > > guix system: error:

Re: kicking off nm again

Hi, zna...@disroot.org writes: > Hello! I need your advise in my `holly war` for guix purity in my > low-capacity Laptop. > > While `guix pull && guix system reconfigure > config-znavko-12-04-2019.scm` worked, Network-Manager and some other > stuff have pervaded. [...] > 1) Let me know how to

Re: Unexpected XDG and GTK+ with system reconfigure

Hi, mikadoZero writes: > I am seeing some unexpected activity listed in the output of > `guix system reconfigure`. > > I am not expecting to see: > > * XDG activity as the system configuration does not include anything > related to xorg > * GTK+ activity as there are no graphical programs in

Re: 1) Lid Buttons 2) Stylus Input 3) Fingerprint Scanner

Hi Raghav, Raghav Gururajan writes: > In continuation to my previous email, I tried to fix the error. But the old > error is gone and I am getting new ones. > > The errors are: > /etc/rg-secondary.scm:47:24: warning: 'gnome-desktop-service' is deprecated, > use 'gnome-desktop-service-type'

Re: 1) Lid Buttons 2) Stylus Input 3) Fingerprint Scanner

Earlier, I wrote: >> 2) Input using stylus pen. > > The touch screen is apparently a Wacom device. From GNOME, you might be > able to easily set it up from the "Wacom" section of GNOME settings. I > don't know about other desktop environments off-hand. [...] > To set it up permanently, it

Re: 1) Lid Buttons 2) Stylus Input 3) Fingerprint Scanner

Hi Raghav, Raghav Gururajan writes: > What and how should I do to enable the following in my Thinkpad X200T (X200 > Tablet)? As far as I know, we don't yet have "out of the box" support for the Thinkpad X200 Tablet. Since I don't have one myself, I can only give you some pointers. > 1)

Re: ci.guix.info 504 gateway timeout (was Re: guix package builds, subsitutes and --no-build)

Giovanni Biscuolo writes: > OK, so my problem getting ungoogled-chromium installed is not related to > the 504 gateway timeout from the web API > > unfortunately I'm still having problems installing it since my client > does not download the substitute but starts building the derivation: > > $

Re: GC hints

Chris Marusich writes: > Mark H Weaver writes: > >> Hi Ludovic, >> >> Ludovic Courtès writes: >> >>> Actually, I was also wondering whether we should provide a configurable >>> mechanism that would, by default, automatically delete old GC roots

Re: Unable to Install Rust 1.20.0 and Beyond

Hi Brian, Brian Woodcox writes: > I’m not able to install rust. Initially, I was having problems with > 1.19.0 because of memory issues. I fixed that by increasing the > memory and now 1.19.0 is installed. > > Now that I have lots of memory 16GB, and lots of hard disk space, I cannot > get

Re: GC hints

Hi Ludovic, Ludovic Courtès writes: > Actually, I was also wondering whether we should provide a configurable > mechanism that would, by default, automatically delete old GC roots and > maybe even run the GC automatically when needed—similar to what Git > does. > > Thoughts? I think it's

Re: guix gc, any way to delete only packages that aren't required to build anything?

George Clemmer writes: > Mark H Weaver writes: > >> On my GuixSD system where substitutes are completely disabled and I >> build everything locally, I've been running my Guix daemon with both >> --gc-keep-derivations=yes and --gc-keep-outputs=yes for years. Here's >&

Re: guix gc, any way to delete only packages that aren't required to build anything?

Hi Joshua, Joshua Branson writes: > Mark H Weaver writes: > >> Pierre Neidhardt writes: >> >> On my GuixSD system where substitutes are completely disabled and I >> build everything locally, I've been running my Guix daemon with both >> --gc-keep-deriv

Re: guix gc, any way to delete only packages that aren't required to build anything?

Pierre Neidhardt writes: >> Contrary to what Pierre wrote above, I've found that the use of these >> flags certainly does _not_ lead to an ever-growing store. > > According to the discussion I linked above, The reason behind the ever-growing > store are substitutes. So if you don't use them,

Re: guix gc, any way to delete only packages that aren't required to build anything?

Pierre Neidhardt writes: > I've been bugged by this as well (see > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2018-09/msg00028.html). There > are > a few options beside Ricardo's suggestion: > > - You can start the Guix daemon with --gc-keep-outputs (see "(guix) Invoking > guix-daemon" in

Re: Ever-growing store with --gc-keep-outputs?

swedebugia writes: > On 2018-09-14 19:46, Mark H Weaver wrote: >> Hi Pierre, >> >> Pierre Neidhardt writes: >> >>>> If, say, “coreutils” is live, then the corresponding “coreutils.drv” >>>> will be considered live as well when you pass

Re: *** TRYING TO INSTALL GUIXSD v0.15.0 FOR DAYS ***

Hi Brian, Earlier, I wrote: > (1) You could wait until hydra.gnu.org comes back online, which I expect > to happen sometime next week. Hydra has a full set of substitutes for > 0.15.0, so you shouldn't need to build Guile at that point. hydra.gnu.org is now back up, so this would be a good time

Re: Where is the best place to download texlive-20170524-extra.tar.xz ?

Hi Brian, When looking for a file that Guix is trying to download but which is no longer available at the expected URL, I normally just do a web search for the file name, in this case "texlive-20170524-extra.tar.xz". Any site will do. It needn't be a site you trust, because Guix always checks

Re: guixsd 0.15.0 install failure

Brian Woodcox writes: > I posted before I saw Leo’s reply at any rate his method is probably better. > > In my case, from the /gnu/store directory, I entered: > > nano ./59pqd1d0ihqxx0i64yxk335vjmw78wmh-bzip2-1.0.6.tar.gz.drv > > and at the end of the line, I changed url from >

Re: *** TRYING TO INSTALL GUIXSD v0.15.0 FOR DAYS ***

Brian Woodcox writes: > Just to avoid me having to search, what command would I use to get the > tail of the build log file. If you know the file name in /gnu/store of one of the build's outputs, you can pass that file name, e.g.: guix build --log-file

Re: *** TRYING TO INSTALL GUIXSD v0.15.0 FOR DAYS ***

George Clemmer writes: > Brian Woodcox writes: > >> I think I’ve had it sitting like that for hours. >> >> The reason I think it’s hung in VirtualBox is the fact that within >> about 45 seconds there is no longer any activity on the hard disk >> icon. >> >> I am currently installing in Qemu and

Re: *** TRYING TO INSTALL GUIXSD v0.15.0 FOR DAYS ***

Hi Brian, Brian Woodcox writes: > This is what is displaced on the screen when the hang occurs: > > … > make check-TESTS > make[3]: Entering directory ‘/tmp/guix-build-guile-2.2.3.drv-0/guile-2.2.3’ > Testing /tmp/guix-build-guile-2.2.3.drv-0/guile-2.2.3/meta/guile … > with

Re: *** TRYING TO INSTALL GUIXSD v0.15.0 FOR DAYS ***

George Clemmer writes: > Brian, I believe that what you are experiencing as a "hang" is actually > the incredibly long time that it takes for guile to bootstrap itself. That's not what's happening here, because this hang is happening during "make check". Thanks anyway :) Mark

Re: *** TRYING TO INSTALL GUIXSD v0.15.0 FOR DAYS ***

Brian Woodcox writes: > So I have been trying to install GuixSD 0.15.0 for a few days now. > > My first problem was not setting > —substitutes-urls=“https://berlin.guixsd.org. So that fixed one > problem. > > My other problem is try as I might, I cannot get either guile-2.2.3 or > guile-2.2.4

Re: Frequent git repository corruptions

Tobias Geerinckx-Rice writes: > Mark H. Weaver wrote: >> Tobias Geerinckx-Rice writes: >>> Only the old, unmaintained (and notably non-UEFI) version 4 is >>> GPL2. Newer versions are mystery meat.[1] >> >> Oh, that's unfortunate :-( > > Indee

Re: Frequent git repository corruptions

Tobias Geerinckx-Rice writes: > Tobias Geerinckx-Rice wrote: >> Pierre Neidhardt wrote: >>> Yup, that's what I've found out as well. >>> >>> There is an AUR package for memtest86 (no +) on EFI: >>> >>> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/memtest86-efi/ > > I stand by my initial pronouncement:

Re: Frequent git repository corruptions

Pierre Neidhardt writes: > This might be unrelated to Guix but since I'm in the dark here, I > figured I'd rather ask, maybe someone ran into a similar issue. > > For the past 2-4 weeks I've had at least 4 Git repositories that got > corrupted for no apparent reason. Even a checkout that I had

Re: damaged installation

carl hansen writes: > I installed guix 0.15 on Debian testing system > Power went out while 'guix pull'ing or something. > Now, show stopper error. Attached. How to proceed? I would move .config/guix to another location (or simply delete it), optionally run "guix gc --verify=contents", and then

Re: Other web-browser for tor

znavko writes: > Hello! I am using GNU IceCat, that has Network Settings for using > proxy. I can use tor with it. I was using Abrowaser on trisquel, but > GuixSD repository has no such: > > $ guix package -s abrowser > $ > > I've found other browsers with `guix package -s 'web browser'` but all

Re: Ever-growing store with --gc-keep-outputs?

Pierre Neidhardt writes: >> it works well in my preferred mode of operation where I >> build everything locally and never use substitutes. > > Do substitutes change the way GC behaves? I use substitutes. No. However, if you build everything locally, it becomes more important to avoid deleting

Re: installing guixsd on an arm device

Hi Julien, Julien Lepiller writes: > I'm trying to install GuixSD on a cubietruck. For that, I installed a > foreign distro, installed guix using the binary method, pulled to the > latest version and I eventually ran "guix system init /etc/config.scm > /". > > After that, I rebooted and I can

Re: Guix on aarch64

Hi Benjamin, Benjamin Slade writes: > Though, unfortunately, when I try `guix package -i hello` (or any other > package), I get the following error: > > > > /gnu/store/qzdabl7b02cp4xsfkz4znxpy482gsgh8-bootstrap-binaries-0/bin/tar: >

Re: racket patch not found

Hi, Marco van Hulten writes: > When I install the package `racket' through > > guix pull &&\ > guix package -i racket > > I get this error: > > guix package: error: racket-fix-xform-issue.patch: patch not found This was fixed in commit 57ac5261fec345b16cf80f87aa03212abc2c5a11,

Re: root certificate

Hi Chris, Chris Marusich writes: > Mark H Weaver writes: > >>;; Create hash symlinks suitable for OpenSSL ('SSL_CERT_DIR' and >>;; similar.) >>(chdir (string-append %output "/etc/ssl/certs")) >>

Re: root certificate

Mark H Weaver writes: > Something like this (untested): > > (define-public my-root-cert > (package > (name "my-root-cert") > (version "0") > (source #f) > (build-system trivial-build-system) > (arguments > '

Re: root certificate

Hi Divan, Divan Santana writes: > How does one import a root certificate for GuixSD? > > I didn't see it in the manual. You didn't see it because we don't yet have a polished way to do this, unfortunately. The good news is that we've already laid the groundwork for supporting local

Re: Guix "days old" variable

Jone writes: > Hello. I check updates: > > guix refresh emacs > gnu/packages/emacs.scm:116:13: emacs would be upgraded from 25.3 to 26.1 > > and would like to install only this one update: > > guix package -u emacs > guix package: warning: Your Guix installation is 16 days old > ... > >

Re: bug#31268: 'guix system vm-image' hangs

ail.com> wrote: >> >>> 'guix system vm-image' hangs on guix (GNU Guix) 0.14.0.4439-eb88e built >>> from source today. Please see log except below. It worked on guix (GNU >>> Guix) 0.14.0.4196-2c92a. built <2018-04-18 Wed> [...] >> I bisected the git repo

Re: Multilib support: running 32-bit binaries on 64-bit systems

Hi Pierre, Pierre Neidhardt writes: > Guix already supports cross-compilation out of the box of 32-bit > packages on any architecture: > > guix build --system=i686-linux PACKAGES... > > Now the question is: is it possible to run the produced binaries > directly (no

Re: Could not find bootstrap binary 'guile-2.0.9.tar.xz'

Joshua Branson writes: > I guess I'm still a little confused. Suppose that I want to update all > packages, on my system. The ones owned by root, and the ones owned by > all other users. Then I'd do this? > > $ guix pull && guix package -u > > $ logout > > $ login

Re: Could not find bootstrap binary 'guile-2.0.9.tar.xz'

Hi Joshua, Joshua Branson writes: > Maybe I'm being really silly, but don't you just do a guix pull as a > root user not as a normal user? No. Guix is not like most distros where you have to be root to update the package list, and where root's package list is used by all

Re: Missing platform_device.h in linux-libre-headers

Hi, Eleven writes: > I’m trying to compile some extra kernel module for my guixsd, however > the headers files needed, `modules.h` and `platform_device.h` was not > found. After redefining the linux-libra-headers package, update the > version to 4.15.13 which is the version

Re: Application Setup on Trisquel

"Caleb Herbert" writes: > * Trisquel does not have xset On Debian-derived systems, 'xset' is part of the 'x11-xserver-utils' package. I found this by visiting: https://packages.debian.org/file:xset or see the "Search the contents of packages" section of

Re: starting a window manager with xinitrc

Hi, Andrew Erlanger writes: > Hello, Guix users. I've managed to get GuixSD running and am enjoying it > so far. To begin learning about the system, though, I am trying to set > up a minimal environment, and am having some trouble figuring things out. > >

Re: Manual pages for glibc.

Hi Ricardo, Ricardo Wurmus writes: >> Which package do I need to install to be able to read the man pages of >> functions in glibc like 'snprintf' and 'malloc'? >> >> I installed glibc, but that does not seem to provide the man pages. > > Here’s what I did: > > unionfs

Re: Enable modules in Linux configuration.

Hi again, Dmitry Nikolaev writes: > How do I enable Reiser4 module in Linux configuration? As far as I > know I need to add "REISER4_FS=m" to .config after running "make > defconfig", but before "make". Sorry, I realize that I didn't answer this question in my last

Re: Enable modules in Linux configuration.

Hi, Dmitry Nikolaev writes: > I'm trying to set up GuixSD on Reiser4 file system. I've succeeded > with patching and compiling Linux with Reiser4 patch, but I've found > that reiser4 module is disabled by default. Everything I did was > pointless 8-] > > How do I enable

Re: Implement power management (suspend, hibernate, resume) in Shepherd?

Mekeor Melire writes: > As far as I understand, currently GuixSD uses elogind (“systemd > project's ‘logind’, extracted to a standalone package”) to suspend, > hibernate and resume when some events happen, like pressing the > suspend-key etc. > > Is there any nice way to

Re: youtube in Web

Ricardo Wurmus writes: > Catonano writes: > >> Youtube doesn't work anymore in Web >> >> It works like a charm in Icecat though > > You need to install some gstreamer plugins, such as the following: > > "gst-plugins-base" > "gst-plugins-good" >

Re: tree doesn't get called

Catonano writes: > So here's the package > http://paste.lisp.org/display/345871 > > What is wrong with it ? Please always include the relevant code snippets in the email itself, rather than using a paste site. Paste sites are useful for contexts such as IRC where pasting

Re: Not booting

l...@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes: > Kete Foy skribis: > >> Kete Foy: >>> >>> I need to do this: >>> https://libreboot.org/docs/gnulinux/grub_cbfs.html#option1_dont_reflash >>> >> This worked for me by just copying grub.cfg to libreboot_grub.cfg. (in >> /boot/grub

Re: Guix unmounted my /home, while -i hello

Louis writes: > Yes, I have tried it again, and it happened again, on the > second time I have sent a bug. It looks to me dangerous to > try it third time. I have only one idea what could cause something like this. Did you add any users to the 'guix-builder' group other than