Re: [help-texinfo] (no subject)

[Masamichi Hosoda]

>> By the way, japanese translated texi can't converrt to pdf by using
>> makeinfo nor texi2pdf.
>> I generate translated pdf by bellow commands.
>> $ TEX=ptex texi2dvi -c emacs.texi
>> $ dvipdfmx emacs.dvi
>> Here, ptex and dvipdfmx are distributed by TexLive packages.
> 
> This is not surprising. ptex is a different version of TeX. Japanese
> Texinfo has also been successfully converted with two other programs
> based on TeX, XeTeX and LuaTeX.
> 
> I'm copying in Masamichi Hosoda on this email, in case he isn't
> subscribed to this mailing list. He did work on getting Japanese to
> work with Texinfo, including with XeTeX and LuaTeX.

Current Texinfo contains Japanese sample file doc/short-sample-ja.texi.
The following command can compile it.

$ PDFTEX=xetex texi2pdf short-sample-ja.texi
or
$ PDFTEX=luatex texi2pdf short-sample-ja.texi

For XeTeX, TeX Live 2012~2016 XeTeX related package and Japanese package,
and Chinese package are required.

For LuaTeX, TeX Live 2016 LuaTeX related package and Japanese package
are required.

pTeX cannot be used.

Here is another Japanese Texinfo sample.
https://github.com/trueroad/texinfo-sample-jp

If you can read Japanese texts,
the following web page describes making Japanese Texinfo files.
http://www.trueroad.jp/2016/05/14-01.html

Re: [help-texinfo] (no subject)

[Takesi Ayanokoji]

Thanks.
I will try those commands.

2016年10月5日(水) 午後8:51 Masamichi Hosoda :

> >> By the way, japanese translated texi can't converrt to pdf by using
> >> makeinfo nor texi2pdf.
> >> I generate translated pdf by bellow commands.
> >> $ TEX=ptex texi2dvi -c emacs.texi
> >> $ dvipdfmx emacs.dvi
> >> Here, ptex and dvipdfmx are distributed by TexLive packages.
> >
> > This is not surprising. ptex is a different version of TeX. Japanese
> > Texinfo has also been successfully converted with two other programs
> > based on TeX, XeTeX and LuaTeX.
> >
> > I'm copying in Masamichi Hosoda on this email, in case he isn't
> > subscribed to this mailing list. He did work on getting Japanese to
> > work with Texinfo, including with XeTeX and LuaTeX.
>
> Current Texinfo contains Japanese sample file doc/short-sample-ja.texi.
> The following command can compile it.
>
> $ PDFTEX=xetex texi2pdf short-sample-ja.texi
> or
> $ PDFTEX=luatex texi2pdf short-sample-ja.texi
>
> For XeTeX, TeX Live 2012~2016 XeTeX related package and Japanese package,
> and Chinese package are required.
>
> For LuaTeX, TeX Live 2016 LuaTeX related package and Japanese package
> are required.
>
> pTeX cannot be used.
>
> Here is another Japanese Texinfo sample.
> https://github.com/trueroad/texinfo-sample-jp
>
> If you can read Japanese texts,
> the following web page describes making Japanese Texinfo files.
> http://www.trueroad.jp/2016/05/14-01.html
>

Re: [help-texinfo] (no subject)

[Takesi Ayanokoji]

> > @setfilename ../../info/emacs-ja
>
> This is wrong. It would be
>
> @setfilename emacs-ja.info
OK, I will use tsis filename.

Re: [help-texinfo] (no subject)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Gavin Smith 
> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 20:48:32 +0100
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Benno Schulenberg 
> , 
>   "help-texinfo@gnu.org" , Masamichi Hosoda 
> 
> 
> On 4 October 2016 at 12:52, Takesi Ayanokoji  
> wrote:
> > @setfilename ../../info/emacs-ja
> 
> This is wrong. It would be
> 
> @setfilename emacs-ja.info
> 
> I don't know why you would use a relative path here. I've never seen
> that done before.

Emacs does it, FWIW, but only for Info output.

Re: [help-texinfo] (no subject)

[Gavin Smith]

On 4 October 2016 at 12:52, Takesi Ayanokoji  wrote:
> @setfilename ../../info/emacs-ja

This is wrong. It would be

@setfilename emacs-ja.info

I don't know why you would use a relative path here. I've never seen
that done before.

Alternatively, if you call the input file emacs-ja.texi instead of
emacs.texi, it should work the same.

> By the way, japanese translated texi can't converrt to pdf by using
> makeinfo nor texi2pdf.
> I generate translated pdf by bellow commands.
> $ TEX=ptex texi2dvi -c emacs.texi
> $ dvipdfmx emacs.dvi
> Here, ptex and dvipdfmx are distributed by TexLive packages.

This is not surprising. ptex is a different version of TeX. Japanese
Texinfo has also been successfully converted with two other programs
based on TeX, XeTeX and LuaTeX.

I'm copying in Masamichi Hosoda on this email, in case he isn't
subscribed to this mailing list. He did work on getting Japanese to
work with Texinfo, including with XeTeX and LuaTeX.

Re: [help-texinfo] (no subject)

[Takesi Ayanokoji]

I tried few patterns and I found funny behavior of TexInfo's tools.
For Prerequisite,
  1) I tried out original emacs distributions texinfo(English version)
to see only check for feature of @setfilename.
  2) In emacs distribution's $(distdir)/doc/Emacs/Makefile,
some of commanline specifies -o(--output option), but I want to
check only @setfilename, so I omit  -o option from commandline.
  3) I modified only @setfilename from ../../emacs to ../../emacs-ja

>From a conclusion,
I guess texi2dvi family (texi2pdf, texi2ps) only see the filename.
And I guess makeinfo --html don't work correctly when @setfilename
includes relative path.

Here is the execution log

#
# start here
#

### I only modified @setfilename line. ###
$ head -4 emacs.texi
\input texinfo  @c -*- coding: utf-8 -*-

@setfilename ../../info/emacs-ja
@settitle GNU Emacs Manual

### Make info file and it works as expected. ###
$ makeinfo --force --enable-encoding -I . --no-split emacs.texi
$ ls -l ../../info/
合計 2360
-rw-r--r-- 1 hiden hiden 2414105 10月  4 20:07 emacs-ja

### Make dvi and pdf files###
$ TEXINPUTS=".:../misc:$TEXINPUTS" \
> MAKEINFO="makeinfo --force --enable-encoding -I ." \
> texi2dvi emacs.texi

  ... (texi2dvi's output messages) ...

###  But it didn't produce emacs-ja.dvi ###
### It Is seems like only detect texi's filename ###
$ make mostlyclean
rm -f *.aux *.log *.toc *.cp *.cps *.fn *.fns *.ky *.kys \
  *.op *.ops *.pg *.pgs *.tp *.tps *.vr *.vrs
$ ls -a ../../info/
.  ..  emacs-ja
$ ls -l *.dvi
-rw-r--r-- 1 hiden hiden 3538752 10月  4 20:13 emacs.dvi

### Make dvi file###
$ TEXINPUTS=".:../misc:$TEXINPUTS" \
> MAKEINFO="makeinfo --force --enable-encoding -I ." \
> texi2pdf emacs.texi

$ make mostlyclean
rm -f *.aux *.log *.toc *.cp *.cps *.fn *.fns *.ky *.kys \
  *.op *.ops *.pg *.pgs *.tp *.tps *.vr *.vrs
$ ls -a ../../info/
.  ..  emacs-ja
$ ls -l *.pdf
-rw-r--r-- 1 hiden hiden 2528996 10月  4 20:18 emacs.pdf

### At last, make html and this befavior is strange. ###
$ makeinfo --force --enable-encoding -I . --no-split --html emacs.texi

### ls *.html files but not found. ###
$ ls -l *.html
ls: cannot access '*.html': No such file or directory
$ ls -l ../../info/*.html
ls: cannot access '../../info/*.html': No such file or directory

### So, I find. ###
$ find /usr/local/src/emacs-24.5 -type f -name \*.html
/usr/local/src/emacs-24.5/doc/..html
/usr/local/src/emacs-24.5/leim/MISC-DIC/CTLau-b5.html
/usr/local/src/emacs-24.5/leim/MISC-DIC/CTLau.html
/usr/local/src/emacs-24.5/admin/unidata/copyright.html
/usr/local/src/emacs-24.5/nextstep/Cocoa/Emacs.base/Contents/Resources/Credits.html

### I find the file. It was generated the file which name starts '.'. ###
$ ls -l /usr/local/src/emacs-24.5/doc/..html
-rw-r--r-- 1 hiden hiden 4084383 10月  4 20:24
/usr/local/src/emacs-24.5/doc/..html

#
# ends here.
#

By the way, japanese translated texi can't converrt to pdf by using
makeinfo nor texi2pdf.
I generate translated pdf by bellow commands.
$ TEX=ptex texi2dvi -c emacs.texi
$ dvipdfmx emacs.dvi
Here, ptex and dvipdfmx are distributed by TexLive packages.

Regards.

Re: [help-texinfo] (no subject)

[Takesi Ayanokoji]

> I think having the translated manuals by different names in the same
> directories is better, as there won't be a need to tweak INFOPATH
> then, and the user can choose which version to read as they see fit.
> So, in addition to 'emacs.info', there will be 'emacs-ja.info',
> 'emacs-de.info', etc., and they all will appear in the DIR file.
Hi Eli.
OK, I will try this approach.
I guess it is achieved only cheange the value of @setfilename.
But I don't know the filename of pdf, html or text which are generate
from texinfo.
(Maybe, this is not a serious matter.)

Regards.

Re: [help-texinfo] (no subject)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Takesi Ayanokoji 
> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 18:23:48 +0900
> Cc: Gavin Smith , 
> coordina...@translationproject.org, 
>   help-texinfo@gnu.org
> 
> > I think having the translated manuals by different names in the same
> > directories is better, as there won't be a need to tweak INFOPATH
> > then, and the user can choose which version to read as they see fit.
> > So, in addition to 'emacs.info', there will be 'emacs-ja.info',
> > 'emacs-de.info', etc., and they all will appear in the DIR file.
> Hi Eli.
> OK, I will try this approach.
> I guess it is achieved only cheange the value of @setfilename.
> But I don't know the filename of pdf, html or text which are generate
> from texinfo.

@setfilename affects all formats produced by makeinfo, except that the
extension is modified as appropriate.  See the Texinfo manual for the
details of what @setfilename does.

Re: [help-texinfo] (no subject)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Gavin Smith 
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 20:43:06 +0100
> Cc: Benno Schulenberg ,
>   "help-texinfo@gnu.org" 
> 
> On 3 October 2016 at 09:07, Takesi Ayanokoji  
> wrote:
> 
> > Is this only way? For instance, such man-pages system has
> > internationalization support but info-system has or will support
> > internationalization system?
> 
> No, it does not. I would suggesting installing a file like
> emacs-ja.info in a "ja" subdirectory of the main Info directory, and
> renaming it as emacs.info, so the full path would be something like
> "/usr/share/info/ja/emacs.info". Then if you put "/usr/share/info/ja"
> ahead of "/usr/share/info" in the Info file search path, looking for
> the "emacs" manual would find the Japanese translation first. I am not
> aware of anyone doing this, though. Perhaps it's worth asking the
> developers of various GNU/Linux distributions if their packages can be
> set up to be installed this way. I think that this method should be
> sufficient and no special support for internationalization is
> necessary as it is done for man pages.
> 
> Another point worth noting is that people do not always want to read
> translated manuals: they may prefer to get the original manuals, and
> things should be set up so they can do this easily.

I think having the translated manuals by different names in the same
directories is better, as there won't be a need to tweak INFOPATH
then, and the user can choose which version to read as they see fit.
So, in addition to 'emacs.info', there will be 'emacs-ja.info',
'emacs-de.info', etc., and they all will appear in the DIR file.

Re: [help-texinfo] (no subject)

[Gavin Smith]

On 3 October 2016 at 09:07, Takesi Ayanokoji  wrote:

> So next, how should I distribute these translations?
> Currently, I distribute these manuals paersonaly via github under original
> texinfo document's license.

It's a difficult question and I don't think there is a standard way of dong it.

I'd suggest contacting the developers of the projects in question and
see if they will distribute the translation. It's common for the
translated files to have a suffix like "-jp", e.g. emacs-ja.texi and
emacs-ja.info.

I'm adding the coordinator of the Translation Project on this email to
see if they can give any insight into how translated manuals could be
handled.

> Is this only way? For instance, such man-pages system has
> internationalization support but info-system has or will support
> internationalization system?

No, it does not. I would suggesting installing a file like
emacs-ja.info in a "ja" subdirectory of the main Info directory, and
renaming it as emacs.info, so the full path would be something like
"/usr/share/info/ja/emacs.info". Then if you put "/usr/share/info/ja"
ahead of "/usr/share/info" in the Info file search path, looking for
the "emacs" manual would find the Japanese translation first. I am not
aware of anyone doing this, though. Perhaps it's worth asking the
developers of various GNU/Linux distributions if their packages can be
set up to be installed this way. I think that this method should be
sufficient and no special support for internationalization is
necessary as it is done for man pages.

Another point worth noting is that people do not always want to read
translated manuals: they may prefer to get the original manuals, and
things should be set up so they can do this easily.