Re: [Histonet] Shrinkage

[Colleen Forster via Histonet]

I find the same as Caroline Miller, about 20-25% with formalin fixation and
routine processing.

C

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Caroline Miller via Histonet <
histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:

> hi All, I have done some experiments in this area for mouse brains, and I
> find that there is actually an expansion of tissue after formalin fixation
> (around 10%), but then certainly a shrinkage to 100% dehydration agent of
> about 20% from the original size. We found similar results with alcohol,
> acetone and THF.
>
> This is manual fluid changes or a day per solution, with no vacuum, temp or
> pressure.
>
> Happy to share the data if anyone is interested
>
> yours,
> mills
>
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Terri Braud via Histonet <
> histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:
>
> > LOL...Shrinkage...heh, heh.
> > But seriously, there should be little to no gross shrinkage from formalin
> > fixation and if the specimen is properly fixed, then there should be very
> > little gross shrinkage as it is dehydrated.  That is supposed to be the
> > point!  If someone is getting 30% shrinkage, there is something seriously
> > wrong with their processing schedule.
> > Sincerely, Terri
> > Terri L. Braud, HT(ASCP)
> > Anatomic Pathology Supervisor
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >2. formalin and shrinkage (Gudrun Lang)
> >
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:59:21 +0100
> > From: "Gudrun Lang" 
> > Subject: [Histonet] formalin and shrinkage
> > Hi!
> > Today someone asked me about shrinkage caused by the fixation with
> > formaldehyde specially on skin-biopsies.  She spoke about shrinkage of
> 30%
> > percent. In my opinion shrinkage is mainly caused by the processing with
> > dehydration and defatting. Formaldehyde renders the tissue harder but not
> > strictly smaller.
> > What is the opinion of the community?
> > Gudrun
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
> > http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Caroline Miller (mills)
> Director of Histology
> 3Scan.com
> 415 2187297
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Re: [Histonet] Shrinkage

[Caroline Miller via Histonet]

hi All, I have done some experiments in this area for mouse brains, and I
find that there is actually an expansion of tissue after formalin fixation
(around 10%), but then certainly a shrinkage to 100% dehydration agent of
about 20% from the original size. We found similar results with alcohol,
acetone and THF.

This is manual fluid changes or a day per solution, with no vacuum, temp or
pressure.

Happy to share the data if anyone is interested

yours,
mills

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Terri Braud via Histonet <
histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:

> LOL...Shrinkage...heh, heh.
> But seriously, there should be little to no gross shrinkage from formalin
> fixation and if the specimen is properly fixed, then there should be very
> little gross shrinkage as it is dehydrated.  That is supposed to be the
> point!  If someone is getting 30% shrinkage, there is something seriously
> wrong with their processing schedule.
> Sincerely, Terri
> Terri L. Braud, HT(ASCP)
> Anatomic Pathology Supervisor
>
> Today's Topics:
>2. formalin and shrinkage (Gudrun Lang)
>
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:59:21 +0100
> From: "Gudrun Lang" 
> Subject: [Histonet] formalin and shrinkage
> Hi!
> Today someone asked me about shrinkage caused by the fixation with
> formaldehyde specially on skin-biopsies.  She spoke about shrinkage of 30%
> percent. In my opinion shrinkage is mainly caused by the processing with
> dehydration and defatting. Formaldehyde renders the tissue harder but not
> strictly smaller.
> What is the opinion of the community?
> Gudrun
>
>
>
> ___
> Histonet mailing list
> Histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
> http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet
>



-- 
Caroline Miller (mills)
Director of Histology
3Scan.com
415 2187297
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Re: [Histonet] Shrinkage

[Terri Braud via Histonet]

LOL...Shrinkage...heh, heh.
But seriously, there should be little to no gross shrinkage from formalin 
fixation and if the specimen is properly fixed, then there should be very 
little gross shrinkage as it is dehydrated.  That is supposed to be the point!  
If someone is getting 30% shrinkage, there is something seriously wrong with 
their processing schedule.
Sincerely, Terri
Terri L. Braud, HT(ASCP)
Anatomic Pathology Supervisor

Today's Topics:
   2. formalin and shrinkage (Gudrun Lang)


Message: 2
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:59:21 +0100
From: "Gudrun Lang" 
Subject: [Histonet] formalin and shrinkage
Hi!
Today someone asked me about shrinkage caused by the fixation with formaldehyde 
specially on skin-biopsies.  She spoke about shrinkage of 30% percent. In my 
opinion shrinkage is mainly caused by the processing with dehydration and 
defatting. Formaldehyde renders the tissue harder but not strictly smaller. 
What is the opinion of the community?
Gudrun



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RE: [Histonet] shrinkage during IHC

[Kuhnla, Melissa]

In my experience, IHC usually plumps tissue back up during reteival.  Is
this noticed with every antibody or just a few?  Certain tissue types?  

-Original Message-
From: histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of
zodia...@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 8:28 AM
To: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: [Histonet] shrinkage during IHC



To All, 

We are a lab that sends our specimens out for IHC and have just switched
to another reference laboratory for these services. Our pathologist is
saying that the tissue looks shrunk on the IHC slides, yet the slides
that I process (HE, and special stains)are fine. Does anyone know what
is causing this? The reference lab said it could be the type of slides
that I use to mount the sections we send to them. My knowledge in IHC is
limited. Also, if this helps, they are FFPE tissue. 

Thanks for your help

Jenny   








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RE: SPAM-LOW: [Histonet] shrinkage during IHC

[Patsy Ruegg]

You should have the same morphology from the IHC slides done outside that
you get from your HE, do you provide them with slides or the Block?  The
only thing I can think of is if they airdry after IHC instead of going thru
alcohols and xylene to coverslip (if they use AEC or ap/red they may
airdry), I have seen cell shrinkage from airdrying after IHC occasionally.
Something else just occurred to me, if they over heat during HIER I suppose
this could happen, but I have not seen it.

Regards,

Patsy

Patsy Ruegg, HT(ASCP)QIHC
IHCtech
12635 Montview Blvd. Ste.215
Aurora, CO 80045
720-859-4060
fax 720-859-4110
www.ihctech.net 
www.ihcrg.org


-Original Message-
From: histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of
zodia...@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 6:28 AM
To: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: SPAM-LOW: [Histonet] shrinkage during IHC



To All, 

We are a lab that sends our specimens out for IHC and have just switched to
another reference laboratory for these services. Our pathologist is saying
that the tissue looks shrunk on the IHC slides, yet the slides that I
process (HE, and special stains)are fine. Does anyone know what is causing
this? The reference lab said it could be the type of slides that I use to
mount the sections we send to them. My knowledge in IHC is limited. Also, if
this helps, they are FFPE tissue.   

Thanks for your help

Jenny   








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[Histonet] shrinkage during IHC

[zodiac29]

To All, 

We are a lab that sends our specimens out for IHC and have just switched to 
another reference laboratory for these services. Our pathologist is saying that 
the tissue looks shrunk on the IHC slides, yet the slides that I process (HE, 
and special stains)are fine. Does anyone know what is causing this? The 
reference lab said it could be the type of slides that I use to mount the 
sections we send to them. My knowledge in IHC is limited. Also, if this helps, 
they are FFPE tissue.   

Thanks for your help

Jenny   








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Re: [Histonet] shrinkage

[louise renton]

I seem to remember a good discussion in this in the following book:. L. P.
Kok and M. E. Boon. *Microwave Cookbook for Microscopists*, Coulomb Press
Leyden, Leiden (1992) p. 1–432 .

Whetehr or not it is still available is another matter

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Edwards, Richard E.
r...@leicester.ac.ukwrote:


 Anybody aware of the degree of shrinkage in paraffin processed tissues
 and/or GMA processed tissues?, many thanks.

 Cheers
  Richard  Edwards

  Leicester University.

  Leicester  U.K.

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[Histonet] shrinkage/a howlong is a piece of string type question

[Edwards, Richard E.]

Many  thanks  to  all who  responded, for  paraffin processed tissues the  
figures  suggested for the amount of shrinkage found or expected were :- more 
than 5%:5-10%:10%(twice):10-15%:20%:25%:30-35%:30-40%, one  
responder felt it was noticeable and another thought it was a  fairy tale 
concocted by pathologistsunsurprisingly many  responders thought 
that  the  degree  of  shrinkage was dependent on the fixative used, processing 
schedule and the nature of the tissue itself, e.g. amount of lipid present. As 
far  as  shrinkage with GMA processed tissue go, a  single response of 5%  
was quoted.

   Richard  Edwards

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Re: Testing for shrinkage RE: [Histonet] shrinkage/a howlong is a piece of string type question

[Jan . Minshew]

   Hey lady,
   How are you?  I haven't seen you on Histonet much lately.  I hope that
   means that you are doing fun things and not working so hard.
   We  have  settled in Plano.  It's so nice to be around family!  Will I
   see  you at NSH?  If so, we have to have our night out again so we can
   catch up on gossip...
   Kind regards,
   Jan Minshew
   Marketing Manager
   Leica Microsystems
   Biosystems Division
   2345 Waukegan Road
   Bannockburn, IL 60015
   Office:  847.405.7051
   Cell: 847.970.8468
   Fax: 847.405.6560
   www.leica-microsystems.com
   Click Here for this month's special offers!
   [1]http://www.leica-microsystems.com/bsdspecial

   gayle callis gayle.cal...@bresnan.net
   Sent by: histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu

   08/25/2010 10:59 AM

   To

   'Edwards, Richard E.' r...@leicester.ac.uk,
   histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu

   cc

  Subject

   Testing  for  shrinkage  RE: [Histonet] shrinkage/a howlong is a piece
of string type question

   Have  you  ever  thought  of  doing  a  shrinkage test?  Take a tissue
   specimen,
   and xerox or use a flat bed scanner.  Put fixed sample between plastic
   sheets,  and  scan  it  as unfixed tissue, fixed before processing and
   then
   after  processing  while  in  a  faced  paraffin  block.  Take all the
   measurements
   and then do the calculations./We used to xerox large stained bone
   sections,  a  clever  way  of getting a precise macro-images of a huge
   specimen
   to  show gross features of a defect. This did a better job than trying
   to do
   a  macro-photo  with  a  camera  or  through  a microscope (the latter
   doesn't
   happen).
   Years  ago,  when  preparing  for HTL exam practical, the samples e.g.
   tissue
   sections  submitted  had to be within a certain size range, and it was
   duly
   noted that after processing, the samples had shrinkage.  This required
   going
   back to fixed tissue and cutting a bigger piece to compensate for the
   shrinkage and have a final correct sample/section size to follow the
   practical rules.
   As  for  GMA,  there is a special processing schedule given to me that
   does not
   use alcohol dehydration (for lipid staining work).  This protocol uses
   an
   GMA/watergradient  since  GMA  is  miscible with water.  I would think
   there
   would  be even less shrinkage with a water/GMA gradient and the source
   of
   shrinkage  would  come  from the heat of polymerization and possibly a
   bit from
   kind  of  fixative  used.   The  heat can controlled to some degree by
   doing
   polymerization  on ice, or in a refrigerator, with the round JB4 metal
   chucks
   to dissipate the heat.
   Once again, I agree with Bryan Hewlett's assessment of shrinkage.
   Gayle Callis
   HTL/HT/MT(ASCP)
   Bozeman MT
   -Original Message-
   From: histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
   [mailto:histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu]On   Behalf   Of
   Edwards,
   Richard E.
   Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 7:50 AM
   To: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
   Subject:  [Histonet]  shrinkage/a  howlong  is  a piece of string type
   question
   Many   thanks  to  all who  responded, for  paraffin processed tissues
   the
   figures   suggested for the amount of shrinkage found or expected were
   :-
   more than
   5%:5-10%:10%(twice):10-15%:20%:25%:30-35%:30-40%,
   one   responder  felt it was noticeable and another thought it was a
   fairy
   tale   concocted   by   pathologistsunsurprisingly   many
   responders
   thought that  the  degree  of  shrinkage was dependent on the fixative
   used,
   processing  schedule  and the nature of the tissue itself, e.g. amount
   of
   lipid  present.  As far  as  shrinkage with GMA processed tissue go, a
   single
   response of 5%  was quoted.
 Richard  Edwards
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[Histonet] shrinkage

[Edwards, Richard E.]

Anybody aware of the degree of shrinkage in paraffin processed tissues and/or 
GMA processed tissues?, many thanks.

 Cheers
  Richard  Edwards

  Leicester University.  

  Leicester  U.K.

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Re: [Histonet] shrinkage

[Geoff McAuliffe]

Shrinkage for paraffin processed tissues is about 20%.
For GMA it is less than 5% which is one reason GMA stuff looks so nice.

Geoff

Edwards, Richard E. wrote:

Anybody aware of the degree of shrinkage in paraffin processed tissues and/or 
GMA processed tissues?, many thanks.

 Cheers
  Richard  Edwards

  Leicester University.  


  Leicester  U.K.

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voice: (732)-235-4583 
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AW: [Histonet] shrinkage

[Gudrun Lang]

I think tissue shrinkage is a fairy tail, told by pathologists at the
grossing. ;) Sure, it is a little bit large, but it will shrink..
Too big blocks stay too big while embedding.

**just for smiling**


There's a study by Cecil Fox 1985 (Formaldehyde fixation), who showed that
shrinkage while fixation occurs only with concentrated formaldehyd, perhaps
due to the methanol-part in commercial formalin.

For dehydration, de-fattation and infiltration I think, it depends on the
gradationsteps of the solutions, the applied temperature and the
ingredients of the tissue. With our standard protocol (13 hours VIP) I
never found excessiv shrinkage.
So, like always, it depends...

Gudrun Lang


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu] Im Auftrag von Tench,
Bill
Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. August 2010 17:33
An: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Betreff: [Histonet] shrinkage

I have never seen a study, but when training, we were taught that
fixation and processing could result in up to 5-10% shrinkage.
 
Bill Tench
Associate Dir. Laboratory Services
Chief, Cytology Services
Palomar Medical Center
555 E. Valley Parkway
Escondido, California  92025
bill.te...@pph.org
Voice: 760- 739-3037
Fax: 760-739-2604
 

[None] made the following annotations
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Confidential E-Mail: This e-mail is intended only for the person or entity
to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,
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RE: [Histonet] shrinkage

[Smith, Allen]

When I wrote my thesis on sweat glands, my experience was that fixation in 
Helly's fluid (Zenker-formol) and paraffin embedding caused serious 
shrinkage: about 10-15% in each dimension.

Allen A. Smith
Professor of Anatomy
Barry University School of Podiatric Medicine

-Original Message-
From: histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu 
[mailto:histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Gudrun Lang
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:50 AM
To: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: AW: [Histonet] shrinkage

I think tissue shrinkage is a fairy tail, told by pathologists at the
grossing. ;) Sure, it is a little bit large, but it will shrink..
Too big blocks stay too big while embedding.

**just for smiling**


There's a study by Cecil Fox 1985 (Formaldehyde fixation), who showed that
shrinkage while fixation occurs only with concentrated formaldehyd, perhaps
due to the methanol-part in commercial formalin.

For dehydration, de-fattation and infiltration I think, it depends on the
gradationsteps of the solutions, the applied temperature and the
ingredients of the tissue. With our standard protocol (13 hours VIP) I
never found excessiv shrinkage.
So, like always, it depends...

Gudrun Lang


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-boun...@lists.utsouthwestern.edu] Im Auftrag von Tench,
Bill
Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. August 2010 17:33
An: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Betreff: [Histonet] shrinkage

I have never seen a study, but when training, we were taught that
fixation and processing could result in up to 5-10% shrinkage.
 
Bill Tench
Associate Dir. Laboratory Services
Chief, Cytology Services
Palomar Medical Center
555 E. Valley Parkway
Escondido, California  92025
bill.te...@pph.org
Voice: 760- 739-3037
Fax: 760-739-2604
 

[None] made the following annotations
-
Confidential E-Mail: This e-mail is intended only for the person or entity
to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,
confidential, or otherwise protected from disclosure. Dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this e-mail or the information herein by anyone
other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this
e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail, and destroy the
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