Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Ken Fallon]

On 2019-05-23 20:40, cobra2 wrote:
> That sums it up for me. I have an opinion but we as a community are just not 
> going to be able/willing to fund the legal fallout that could occour. I leave 
> my vote in the hands of the site admins and their risk levels.
> 
> --cobra2

Remember that our policy is also a commitment to anyone using our feed.
I know there are downstream projects like college radio, workplaces,
shops etc that are using our feed. They would not need to buy a public
music licence, for feeds contains *only* Creative Commons content.

I know this is strictly enforced in Ireland, any venue where the public
would have access would need a lisence. They brought and won a case
where where a business was not playing any music in their public facing
shop, but the public was exposed to the music playing in the workshop
via a bathroom window.

We need to keep this in mind and be sure that we are not putting our
listeners at risk as well.

-- 
Regards,

Ken Fallon
http://kenfallon.com
http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30



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Re: [Hpr] Hpr Digest, Vol 128, Issue 2

[Tony Hughes]

Regarding the copyright material, I totally agree with the sentiment of the
good for the community not 1 individual contributor. It is very clear in
the submission guidelines that you must own or have the permission of the
owner to redistribute any content in your show. My vote is to ask that the
copyright music is removed before publication, and if the contributor is
unwilling to do this then reject the offending content

Tony Hughes


On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:29 AM  wrote:

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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it
>   ? (Ken Fallon)
>2. Re: Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips
>   in it ? (Mike Ray)
>3. Re: Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips
>   in it ? (cobra2)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 10:50:44 +0200
> From: Ken Fallon 
> To: "hpr@hackerpublicradio.org" 
> Subject: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips
> in it ?
> Message-ID: <6bf7d0aa-09e4-6ce7-499d-ef0d1cbb1...@fallon.ie>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi All,
>
> Under safe harbor provisions, we as volunteers are usually insulated
> from any copyright issues that may arise in the shows. "We do not vet,
> edit, moderate or in any way censor any of the shows on the network, we
> trust you to do that."
>
> This we got by accident because "This is a long standing tradition
> arising from the fact that HPR is a community of peers who believe that
> any host has as much right to submit shows as any other."
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#not_moderated
>
> In the show notes associated with hpr2829 on 2019-06-06, the host
> included the following text "For all included materials: If anyone feels
> they have right to any material in this show please let me know and I
> will comply."
>
> This violates the HPR upload policy
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission
>
> "Never include content, for example music, in your show that you do not
> have permission to redistribute. Try to avoid using any content in your
> show that can not be redistributed under a Creative Commons
> Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. If you are redistributing
> under another Creative Commons License or by arranged permission please
> make note of the restrictions when you upload your show. We can then
> signal that, so that others who redistribute HPR content can filter your
> show out."
>
> As it was clear that they were not in compliance, I contacted the host.
> The host has been very helpful and has already removed some of the
> content but commented "There are still 2 audio clips included. I claim I
> can use them on the basis off fair use principles."
>
> While the host may be correct, if they are not, then it is me and not
> the host that will be held responsible for posting it. I do not want
> that responsibility.
>
> Under the current HPR rules I am allowed to reject this submission.
>
> Before I do, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible on this
> topic so that we can gauge the opinions of the HPR Community as a whole.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Ken Fallon
> http://kenfallon.com
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30
>
> -- next part --
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://hackerpublicradio.org/pipermail/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org/attachments/20190523/87c8d7aa/attachment-0001.sig
> >
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 10:06:32 +0100
> From: Mike Ray 
> To: k...@fallon.ie, "hpr@hackerpublicradio.org"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use
> clips in it ?
> Message-ID: <827b2427-cb7a-94e6-8a78-f674a3944...@raspberryvi.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=&q

Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[cobra2]

That sums it up for me. I have an opinion but we as a community are just not 
going to be able/willing to fund the legal fallout that could occour. I leave 
my vote in the hands of the site admins and their risk levels.

--cobra2

On May 23, 2019 5:55:00 PM UTC, "stankd...@stankdawg.com" 
 wrote:
>I would need to know what the material was and the context to determine
>if it falls under “fair use”. IANAL so even with that info it would be
>my best guess just from experience. 
>
>Easy solution is the show creator voluntarily clean it up if possible.
>Since I don’t know the context that may not be realistic without
>ruining the intent of the show. I am hoping there is a solution that
>makes that decision easy. 
>
>If not then, as much as its sucks, we have to not get ourselves (mostly
>Ken and I and mostly me more than Ken) in trouble legally or
>financially. I saw some fair about about low chance to get caught and
>the thoughts that the punishment would be slap on the wrist and just
>take it down. But if they get aggressive and push to court then I just
>cannot afford it EVEN IF WE ARE RIGHT ABOUT FAIR USE AND WIN the court
>costs alone would break me  
>
>Sorry. Not worth the risk. I appreciate the contribution and do not
>want to discourage the submissions.  But it is too dangerous. 
>
>And for the record... no one else can voluntarily accept
>responsibility. It falls back to me as site owner no matter what. 
>
>Sent from my iPhone.
>
>> On May 23, 2019, at 4:50 AM, Ken Fallon  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> Under safe harbor provisions, we as volunteers are usually insulated
>> from any copyright issues that may arise in the shows. "We do not
>vet,
>> edit, moderate or in any way censor any of the shows on the network,
>we
>> trust you to do that."
>> 
>> This we got by accident because "This is a long standing tradition
>> arising from the fact that HPR is a community of peers who believe
>that
>> any host has as much right to submit shows as any other."
>> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#not_moderated
>> 
>> In the show notes associated with hpr2829 on 2019-06-06, the host
>> included the following text "For all included materials: If anyone
>feels
>> they have right to any material in this show please let me know and I
>> will comply."
>> 
>> This violates the HPR upload policy
>> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission
>> 
>> "Never include content, for example music, in your show that you do
>not
>> have permission to redistribute. Try to avoid using any content in
>your
>> show that can not be redistributed under a Creative Commons
>> Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. If you are
>redistributing
>> under another Creative Commons License or by arranged permission
>please
>> make note of the restrictions when you upload your show. We can then
>> signal that, so that others who redistribute HPR content can filter
>your
>> show out."
>> 
>> As it was clear that they were not in compliance, I contacted the
>host.
>> The host has been very helpful and has already removed some of the
>> content but commented "There are still 2 audio clips included. I
>claim I
>> can use them on the basis off fair use principles."
>> 
>> While the host may be correct, if they are not, then it is me and not
>> the host that will be held responsible for posting it. I do not want
>> that responsibility.
>> 
>> Under the current HPR rules I am allowed to reject this submission.
>> 
>> Before I do, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible on this
>> topic so that we can gauge the opinions of the HPR Community as a
>whole.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Ken Fallon
>> http://kenfallon.com
>> http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30
>> 
>> ___
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>>
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>
>
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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[stankd...@stankdawg.com]

I would need to know what the material was and the context to determine if it 
falls under “fair use”. IANAL so even with that info it would be my best guess 
just from experience. 

Easy solution is the show creator voluntarily clean it up if possible. Since I 
don’t know the context that may not be realistic without ruining the intent of 
the show. I am hoping there is a solution that makes that decision easy. 

If not then, as much as its sucks, we have to not get ourselves (mostly Ken and 
I and mostly me more than Ken) in trouble legally or financially. I saw some 
fair about about low chance to get caught and the thoughts that the punishment 
would be slap on the wrist and just take it down. But if they get aggressive 
and push to court then I just cannot afford it EVEN IF WE ARE RIGHT ABOUT FAIR 
USE AND WIN the court costs alone would break me  

Sorry. Not worth the risk. I appreciate the contribution and do not want to 
discourage the submissions.  But it is too dangerous. 

And for the record... no one else can voluntarily accept responsibility. It 
falls back to me as site owner no matter what. 

Sent from my iPhone.

> On May 23, 2019, at 4:50 AM, Ken Fallon  wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Under safe harbor provisions, we as volunteers are usually insulated
> from any copyright issues that may arise in the shows. "We do not vet,
> edit, moderate or in any way censor any of the shows on the network, we
> trust you to do that."
> 
> This we got by accident because "This is a long standing tradition
> arising from the fact that HPR is a community of peers who believe that
> any host has as much right to submit shows as any other."
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#not_moderated
> 
> In the show notes associated with hpr2829 on 2019-06-06, the host
> included the following text "For all included materials: If anyone feels
> they have right to any material in this show please let me know and I
> will comply."
> 
> This violates the HPR upload policy
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission
> 
> "Never include content, for example music, in your show that you do not
> have permission to redistribute. Try to avoid using any content in your
> show that can not be redistributed under a Creative Commons
> Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. If you are redistributing
> under another Creative Commons License or by arranged permission please
> make note of the restrictions when you upload your show. We can then
> signal that, so that others who redistribute HPR content can filter your
> show out."
> 
> As it was clear that they were not in compliance, I contacted the host.
> The host has been very helpful and has already removed some of the
> content but commented "There are still 2 audio clips included. I claim I
> can use them on the basis off fair use principles."
> 
> While the host may be correct, if they are not, then it is me and not
> the host that will be held responsible for posting it. I do not want
> that responsibility.
> 
> Under the current HPR rules I am allowed to reject this submission.
> 
> Before I do, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible on this
> topic so that we can gauge the opinions of the HPR Community as a whole.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Ken Fallon
> http://kenfallon.com
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30
> 
> ___
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> Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org
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Re: [Hpr] Hpr Digest, Vol 128, Issue 5

[Yannick]

Just a quick word about "fair use" : in France and in Switzerland, that's not 
even in the law. It's just a gentleman's agreement. We all know how much 
"gentle" the music industry can be. 

Yannick

Envoyé de mon iPhone

> Le 23 mai 2019 à 18:19, Carl D Hamann  a écrit :
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, May 23, 2019, 10:48 AM lostnbronx  wrote:
>> The question really isn't about this one episode, is it? This is
>> really about policy.
> 
> 
> Definitely. I think the last thing anyone wants is a system that requires 
> individual episodes to be evaluated by the mailing list.
> 
> I think Ken's question has two "bigger questions" that want answers:
> 
> - What's the simplest statement of a bright line test that an admin our host 
> can use to knew whether a given show is ok?
> - How can we best reconcile A) our ideal of accepting all shows of interest 
> to hackers without censorship, with B) the necessity of abiding by the law of 
> the land?
> 
> The verbiage on the site 
> (http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission) seems 
> pretty clear to me: you need explicit permission to include the content in 
> your show, i.e., written acknowledgement from the rightsholder--preferably a 
> formal license compatible with the overall license for the show. Just because 
> your use of a work is "fair", and therefore allowed by law, doesn't mean that 
> it is without consequence or appropriate for every forum.
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Re: [Hpr] Hpr Digest, Vol 128, Issue 5

[Carl D Hamann]

On Thu, May 23, 2019, 10:48 AM lostnbronx  wrote:

> The question really isn't about this one episode, is it? This is
> really about policy.
>

Definitely. I think the last thing anyone wants is a system that requires
individual episodes to be evaluated by the mailing list.

I think Ken's question has two "bigger questions" that want answers:

- What's the simplest statement of a bright line test that an admin our
host can use to knew whether a given show is ok?
- How can we best reconcile A) our ideal of accepting all shows of interest
to hackers without censorship, with B) the necessity of abiding by the law
of the land?

The verbiage on the site (
http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission) seems
pretty clear to me: you need explicit permission to include the content in
your show, i.e., written acknowledgement from the rightsholder--preferably
a formal license compatible with the overall license for the show. Just
because your use of a work is "fair", and therefore allowed by law, doesn't
mean that it is without consequence or appropriate for every forum.

>
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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Kevin O'Brien]

Sounds to me like a no-brainer at this point Ken. You have answered your
own question.


-- 
Kevin B. O'Brien
z wil...@zwilnik.com
http://google.me/+kevinobrien
http://www.google.com/profiles/Ahuka5656
http://about.me/zwilnik
“People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be
afraid of their people.” - Alan Moore, *V for Vendetta*
*Public Key = F6283E7A *



On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 11:17 AM Ken Fallon  wrote:

> On 2019-05-23 16:53, dosman wrote:
> > Does anyone have an example where a DMCA takedown notice resulted in
> > anything more than emotional aggravation (assuming immediate compliance
> > with the notice)?
>
> A DMCA takedown notice would not even apply here as we intentionally are
> posting infringing material.
>
> If it was not mentioned in the show notes, we would not have known and
> if the DMCA take down came, I would have just done so. No problem.
>
> There is a small industry of lawyers sending ISP's customers letters
> demanding settlement sums in the 1-10K region. The logic is that people
> are more likely to settle than go to court.
>
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sending+threatening+letter+copyright+infringement=web
>
> > Ken’s the one who would have to deal with any fallout, so really it’s
> > his call. At the same time, considering all the egregious copyright
> > violations myself and others who contributed to TWaT and The Packet
> > Sniffers committed which have gone un-noticed for over a decade
>
> Back in the twat days and before there was no way to ever get noticed,
> because the process of copyright enforcement was not automated. It is
> now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shazam_(application)
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Ken Fallon
> http://kenfallon.com
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30
>
>
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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Carl D Hamann]

I'm really conflicted about this. I'm firmly in the camp of "reject this
submission" for two reasons:

>
1. I don't want something to jeopardize the future of HPR
2. I don't want to put undue work or stress on Ken--he does so much for the
community already

However, I'm very upset that I can't think of a better solution. The
current climate of copyright litigation has a tremendously chilling effect
on free speech. I absolutely believe that content creators who wish to
profit from their work should have the ability to do so. But it's also
essential that the public be allowed to criticize it--including parody and
reasonable except. We're caught in the middle, having to choose between
censorship and risking everything the community has built.

I wish there were a better option, but I think we have to reject the show.
Hopefully the host would be willing to resubmit the show including his
commentary about the works but omitting the excerpts (perhaps linking to
them).

-laindir
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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Ken Fallon]

On 2019-05-23 16:53, dosman wrote:
> Does anyone have an example where a DMCA takedown notice resulted in
> anything more than emotional aggravation (assuming immediate compliance
> with the notice)?

A DMCA takedown notice would not even apply here as we intentionally are
posting infringing material.

If it was not mentioned in the show notes, we would not have known and
if the DMCA take down came, I would have just done so. No problem.

There is a small industry of lawyers sending ISP's customers letters
demanding settlement sums in the 1-10K region. The logic is that people
are more likely to settle than go to court.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sending+threatening+letter+copyright+infringement=web

> Ken’s the one who would have to deal with any fallout, so really it’s
> his call. At the same time, considering all the egregious copyright
> violations myself and others who contributed to TWaT and The Packet
> Sniffers committed which have gone un-noticed for over a decade

Back in the twat days and before there was no way to ever get noticed,
because the process of copyright enforcement was not automated. It is
now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shazam_(application)

-- 
Regards,

Ken Fallon
http://kenfallon.com
http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30



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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[dosman]

Does anyone have an example where a DMCA takedown notice resulted in anything 
more than emotional aggravation (assuming immediate compliance with the notice)?

Ken’s the one who would have to deal with any fallout, so really it’s his call. 
At the same time, considering all the egregious copyright violations myself and 
others who contributed to TWaT and The Packet Sniffers committed which have 
gone un-noticed for over a decade, this seems like a mountain made out of a 
mole hill. But then again I haven’t heard the offending program so this may be 
a wholly uninformed opinion.

This is my 2 cents, please choose to disregard at will. Thanks,
-dosman



> On May 23, 2019, at 8:21 AM, Kevin O'Brien  wrote:
> 
> It violates the policy, so I would reject it. You have to pick your battles, 
> and I don't see why it is important for HPR to potentially get into a 
> copyright dispute. Fair Use is not, in the U.S., a right recognized by any 
> statute. It is best understood as "the right to hire a lawyer". And the very 
> fact that it has been brought up for discussion may invalidate the "safe 
> harbor" defense since there is no way you could claim you were unaware of the 
> copyright violation.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> --
> Kevin B. O'Brien
> z wil...@zwilnik.com 
> http://google.me/+kevinobrien 
> http://www.google.com/profiles/Ahuka5656 
> 
> http://about.me/zwilnik 
> “People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid 
> of their people.” - Alan Moore, V for Vendetta
> 
> Public Key = F6283E7A 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 4:50 AM Ken Fallon  > wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Under safe harbor provisions, we as volunteers are usually insulated
> from any copyright issues that may arise in the shows. "We do not vet,
> edit, moderate or in any way censor any of the shows on the network, we
> trust you to do that."
> 
> This we got by accident because "This is a long standing tradition
> arising from the fact that HPR is a community of peers who believe that
> any host has as much right to submit shows as any other."
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#not_moderated 
> 
> 
> In the show notes associated with hpr2829 on 2019-06-06, the host
> included the following text "For all included materials: If anyone feels
> they have right to any material in this show please let me know and I
> will comply."
> 
> This violates the HPR upload policy
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission 
> 
> 
> "Never include content, for example music, in your show that you do not
> have permission to redistribute. Try to avoid using any content in your
> show that can not be redistributed under a Creative Commons
> Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. If you are redistributing
> under another Creative Commons License or by arranged permission please
> make note of the restrictions when you upload your show. We can then
> signal that, so that others who redistribute HPR content can filter your
> show out."
> 
> As it was clear that they were not in compliance, I contacted the host.
> The host has been very helpful and has already removed some of the
> content but commented "There are still 2 audio clips included. I claim I
> can use them on the basis off fair use principles."
> 
> While the host may be correct, if they are not, then it is me and not
> the host that will be held responsible for posting it. I do not want
> that responsibility.
> 
> Under the current HPR rules I am allowed to reject this submission.
> 
> Before I do, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible on this
> topic so that we can gauge the opinions of the HPR Community as a whole.
> 
> --
> Regards,
> 
> Ken Fallon
> http://kenfallon.com 
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Kevin O'Brien]

It violates the policy, so I would reject it. You have to pick your
battles, and I don't see why it is important for HPR to potentially get
into a copyright dispute. Fair Use is not, in the U.S., a right recognized
by any statute. It is best understood as "the right to hire a lawyer". And
the very fact that it has been brought up for discussion may invalidate the
"safe harbor" defense since there is no way you could claim you were
unaware of the copyright violation.

Regards,


-- 
Kevin B. O'Brien
z wil...@zwilnik.com
http://google.me/+kevinobrien
http://www.google.com/profiles/Ahuka5656
http://about.me/zwilnik
“People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be
afraid of their people.” - Alan Moore, *V for Vendetta*
*Public Key = F6283E7A *



On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 4:50 AM Ken Fallon  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Under safe harbor provisions, we as volunteers are usually insulated
> from any copyright issues that may arise in the shows. "We do not vet,
> edit, moderate or in any way censor any of the shows on the network, we
> trust you to do that."
>
> This we got by accident because "This is a long standing tradition
> arising from the fact that HPR is a community of peers who believe that
> any host has as much right to submit shows as any other."
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#not_moderated
>
> In the show notes associated with hpr2829 on 2019-06-06, the host
> included the following text "For all included materials: If anyone feels
> they have right to any material in this show please let me know and I
> will comply."
>
> This violates the HPR upload policy
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission
>
> "Never include content, for example music, in your show that you do not
> have permission to redistribute. Try to avoid using any content in your
> show that can not be redistributed under a Creative Commons
> Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. If you are redistributing
> under another Creative Commons License or by arranged permission please
> make note of the restrictions when you upload your show. We can then
> signal that, so that others who redistribute HPR content can filter your
> show out."
>
> As it was clear that they were not in compliance, I contacted the host.
> The host has been very helpful and has already removed some of the
> content but commented "There are still 2 audio clips included. I claim I
> can use them on the basis off fair use principles."
>
> While the host may be correct, if they are not, then it is me and not
> the host that will be held responsible for posting it. I do not want
> that responsibility.
>
> Under the current HPR rules I am allowed to reject this submission.
>
> Before I do, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible on this
> topic so that we can gauge the opinions of the HPR Community as a whole.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Ken Fallon
> http://kenfallon.com
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30
>
> ___
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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[James Toebes]

Reading the notes and responses,  I agree with the cautious approach.   While I 
agree with the sentiments that Fair use may cover it.  The resources of HPR are 
limited.   Even the trouble of having to redact something submitted is a heavy 
burden.  Since we are community submitted,  giving sway to requirements would 
allow a contributor to submit a Trojan Horse episode that could cause 
significant headaches.To quote an old phrase 'Abuse it and Lose it.'   I 
want to see HPR for a long time. 

And Ken,  I apologize.   I am LONG overdue for some promised episodes.   

"Ken Fallon"  – May 23, 2019 8:52 AM
> Hi All,
> 
> Under safe harbor provisions, we as volunteers are usually insulated
> from any copyright issues that may arise in the shows. "We do not vet,
> edit, moderate or in any way censor any of the shows on the network, we
> trust you to do that."
> 
> This we got by accident because "This is a long standing tradition
> arising from the fact that HPR is a community of peers who believe that
> any host has as much right to submit shows as any other."
> hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php
> 
> In the show notes associated with hpr2829 on 2019-06-06, the host
> included the following text "For all included materials: If anyone feels
> they have right to any material in this show please let me know and I
> will comply."
> 
> This violates the HPR upload policy
> hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php
> 
> "Never include content, for example music, in your show that you do not
> have permission to redistribute. Try to avoid using any content in your
> show that can not be redistributed under a Creative Commons
> Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. If you are redistributing
> under another Creative Commons License or by arranged permission please
> make note of the restrictions when you upload your show. We can then
> signal that, so that others who redistribute HPR content can filter your
> show out."
> 
> As it was clear that they were not in compliance, I contacted the host.
> The host has been very helpful and has already removed some of the
> content but commented "There are still 2 audio clips included. I claim I
> can use them on the basis off fair use principles."
> 
> While the host may be correct, if they are not, then it is me and not
> the host that will be held responsible for posting it. I do not want
> that responsibility.
> 
> Under the current HPR rules I am allowed to reject this submission.
> 
> Before I do, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible on this
> topic so that we can gauge the opinions of the HPR Community as a whole.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Ken Fallon
> kenfallon.com
> hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php
> 
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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Klaatu]

This demonstrates the inferiority of non Creative Commons content.  We are all 
left to our own interpretation of "fair use" (some say there is legally no such 
thing at all). 

I believe we must reject the episode on the basis that we could be placing our 
hosting provider at risk. If we want to encourage the episode host to go rogue 
and post it on his/her own server, then we can do that. Or we can encourage the 
host to use CC-licensed material.

We must protect our hosting provider and the volunteers who might be seen as 
beibg legally responsible.

Don't like it? Push CC licensing (this is the route I prefer), or set up a 
pirate server yourself (and continue to empower those using copyright as 
cultural blackmail). 



On 23 May 2019 8:50:44 PM NZST, Ken Fallon  wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Under safe harbor provisions, we as volunteers are usually insulated
>from any copyright issues that may arise in the shows. "We do not vet,
>edit, moderate or in any way censor any of the shows on the network, we
>trust you to do that."
>
>This we got by accident because "This is a long standing tradition
>arising from the fact that HPR is a community of peers who believe that
>any host has as much right to submit shows as any other."
>http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#not_moderated
>
>In the show notes associated with hpr2829 on 2019-06-06, the host
>included the following text "For all included materials: If anyone
>feels
>they have right to any material in this show please let me know and I
>will comply."
>
>This violates the HPR upload policy
>http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission
>
>"Never include content, for example music, in your show that you do not
>have permission to redistribute. Try to avoid using any content in your
>show that can not be redistributed under a Creative Commons
>Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. If you are redistributing
>under another Creative Commons License or by arranged permission please
>make note of the restrictions when you upload your show. We can then
>signal that, so that others who redistribute HPR content can filter
>your
>show out."
>
>As it was clear that they were not in compliance, I contacted the host.
>The host has been very helpful and has already removed some of the
>content but commented "There are still 2 audio clips included. I claim
>I
>can use them on the basis off fair use principles."
>
>While the host may be correct, if they are not, then it is me and not
>the host that will be held responsible for posting it. I do not want
>that responsibility.
>
>Under the current HPR rules I am allowed to reject this submission.
>
>Before I do, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible on this
>topic so that we can gauge the opinions of the HPR Community as a
>whole.
>
>-- 
>Regards,
>
>Ken Fallon
>http://kenfallon.com
>http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30
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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Mike Ray]

On 23/05/2019 10:47, cobra2 wrote:
> As a member of this community, I will support the host's privilege to upload 
> content. I will also comply with any legal fallout except paying fines and 
> royalties. I'll even support removing the content of the host should the 
> copyright holder request that properly with a DMCA takedown notice. 
> 
> Is that accepting legal responsibility? Probably not, I'm just thinking back 
> to the older days of RFA and TWAT. They would have posted it. 
> 
> -- cobra2
> 
> On May 23, 2019 9:32:16 AM UTC, Ken Fallon  wrote:
>> On 2019-05-23 11:28, cobra2 wrote:
>>> I disagree with the be cautious motif. Post the show. Let the
>> copyright holder do their diligence in protecting their 'brand'. Comply
>> with the DMCA request if/when it is delivered. 
>>>
>>> We are not here to follow the letter of the law. We are here to
>> spread knowledge and inspire others to try new things. 
>>>
>>> Now that being said, I HATE background music through a show. If the
>> content in question is played during the background of the show and is
>> NOT a live performance .. Kill it with fire. 
>>>
>>> My two cents. 
>>>
>>> --cobra2
>>
>> Hi cobra2
>>
>> Can I assume then that you will accept legal responsibility for any
>> actions resulting from this show ?
> 
> -- cobra2
> 
> ___
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> http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
> 


This email clearly states that Cobra would NOT accept any legal
responsibility of a show containing copyrighted material.

Therefore for him/her to say "just do it" is not acceptable.

Big copyright holders have much deeper pockets than any of us.  And are
likely to defend copyright with considerable aggression and tenacity.

So, reject it.

And watch as HPR does not fade away because we rejected one or two shows
out of hundreds.






-- 
Michael A. Ray
Analyst/Programmer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when
there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery


https://cromarty.github.io/
http://eyesfreelinux.ninja/
http://www.raspberryvi.org/



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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Mike Ray]

On 23/05/2019 10:32, Ken Fallon wrote:
> On 2019-05-23 11:28, cobra2 wrote:
>> I disagree with the be cautious motif. Post the show. Let the copyright 
>> holder do their diligence in protecting their 'brand'. Comply with the DMCA 
>> request if/when it is delivered. 
>>
>> We are not here to follow the letter of the law. We are here to spread 
>> knowledge and inspire others to try new things. 
>>
>> Now that being said, I HATE background music through a show. If the content 
>> in question is played during the background of the show and is NOT a live 
>> performance .. Kill it with fire. 
>>
>> My two cents. 
>>
>> --cobra2
> 
> Hi cobra2
> 
> Can I assume then that you will accept legal responsibility for any
> actions resulting from this show ?
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Hpr mailing list
> Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
> 


This is HPR, not the BBC and not a music channel.

I too don't like music over the podcast.

But then again I don't like any HPR podcast that departs from the
'hacker' part of the name.  I currently delete more than I listen to.

So, if you are fiddling about with an electric guitar you 'hacked' by
restoring it after it was found in a dumpster, then all well and good,
if you are showing off your piano thingy that seems to be played by some
kind of digital ghost of a long-dead composer geezer, then all well and
good.

But if you are playing somebody else's music while you whitter on about
something not connected with the music that is playing, why is the music
there?  Leave that to the big broadcasters who are willing to pay to use
the stuff.

And it is no good saying the equivalent of "publish and be damned" if it
is not your head that will roll if it is picked up.

Ken and Dave, and probably others, already do more than can reasonably
be expected of them for HPR.  They certainly don't need any risk,
however small, of falling fowl of the DMCA.

How much will HPR be damaged if the occasional 'cast is pulled for
containing doubtful material?  How much will HPR be damaged if hosts
just accept they can't play any copyrighted stuff?

I suggest hardly at all.

Let's keep hacking and stop trying to impersonate the BBC, or NPR.

Although it would be hard to convince anybody HPR is the BBC unless we
suddenly have Nigel Farage on every podcast.





-- 
Michael A. Ray
Analyst/Programmer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when
there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery


https://cromarty.github.io/
http://eyesfreelinux.ninja/
http://www.raspberryvi.org/





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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[cobra2]

As a member of this community, I will support the host's privilege to upload 
content. I will also comply with any legal fallout except paying fines and 
royalties. I'll even support removing the content of the host should the 
copyright holder request that properly with a DMCA takedown notice. 

Is that accepting legal responsibility? Probably not, I'm just thinking back to 
the older days of RFA and TWAT. They would have posted it. 

-- cobra2

On May 23, 2019 9:32:16 AM UTC, Ken Fallon  wrote:
>On 2019-05-23 11:28, cobra2 wrote:
>> I disagree with the be cautious motif. Post the show. Let the
>copyright holder do their diligence in protecting their 'brand'. Comply
>with the DMCA request if/when it is delivered. 
>> 
>> We are not here to follow the letter of the law. We are here to
>spread knowledge and inspire others to try new things. 
>> 
>> Now that being said, I HATE background music through a show. If the
>content in question is played during the background of the show and is
>NOT a live performance .. Kill it with fire. 
>> 
>> My two cents. 
>> 
>> --cobra2
>
>Hi cobra2
>
>Can I assume then that you will accept legal responsibility for any
>actions resulting from this show ?

-- cobra2

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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Ken Fallon]

On 2019-05-23 11:28, cobra2 wrote:
> I disagree with the be cautious motif. Post the show. Let the copyright 
> holder do their diligence in protecting their 'brand'. Comply with the DMCA 
> request if/when it is delivered. 
> 
> We are not here to follow the letter of the law. We are here to spread 
> knowledge and inspire others to try new things. 
> 
> Now that being said, I HATE background music through a show. If the content 
> in question is played during the background of the show and is NOT a live 
> performance .. Kill it with fire. 
> 
> My two cents. 
> 
> --cobra2

Hi cobra2

Can I assume then that you will accept legal responsibility for any
actions resulting from this show ?


-- 
Regards,

Ken Fallon
http://kenfallon.com
http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30



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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[cobra2]

I disagree with the be cautious motif. Post the show. Let the copyright holder 
do their diligence in protecting their 'brand'. Comply with the DMCA request 
if/when it is delivered. 

We are not here to follow the letter of the law. We are here to spread 
knowledge and inspire others to try new things. 

Now that being said, I HATE background music through a show. If the content in 
question is played during the background of the show and is NOT a live 
performance .. Kill it with fire. 

My two cents. 

--cobra2

On May 23, 2019 9:06:32 AM UTC, Mike Ray  wrote:
>
>If you are in any doubt at all about it, and your head might be on the
>block if it violates any rules, then reject it.
>
>Erring on the cautious side is the best policy here.  And there are
>plenty of things to podcast about on HPR without needing to resort to
>including potentially copyrighted audio clips.
>
>A few days ago I was thinking about a podcast about the BBC shipping
>forecast.  But I rejected the idea since I can hardly talk about the
>shipping forecast without playing the 'Sailing By' tune which always
>plays before it at 1:00 AM.  But that is no doubt copyright, so I won't
>do it.
>
>
>
>On 23/05/2019 09:50, Ken Fallon wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> Under safe harbor provisions, we as volunteers are usually insulated
>> from any copyright issues that may arise in the shows. "We do not
>vet,
>> edit, moderate or in any way censor any of the shows on the network,
>we
>> trust you to do that."
>> 
>> This we got by accident because "This is a long standing tradition
>> arising from the fact that HPR is a community of peers who believe
>that
>> any host has as much right to submit shows as any other."
>> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#not_moderated
>> 
>> In the show notes associated with hpr2829 on 2019-06-06, the host
>> included the following text "For all included materials: If anyone
>feels
>> they have right to any material in this show please let me know and I
>> will comply."
>> 
>> This violates the HPR upload policy
>> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission
>> 
>> "Never include content, for example music, in your show that you do
>not
>> have permission to redistribute. Try to avoid using any content in
>your
>> show that can not be redistributed under a Creative Commons
>> Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. If you are
>redistributing
>> under another Creative Commons License or by arranged permission
>please
>> make note of the restrictions when you upload your show. We can then
>> signal that, so that others who redistribute HPR content can filter
>your
>> show out."
>> 
>> As it was clear that they were not in compliance, I contacted the
>host.
>> The host has been very helpful and has already removed some of the
>> content but commented "There are still 2 audio clips included. I
>claim I
>> can use them on the basis off fair use principles."
>> 
>> While the host may be correct, if they are not, then it is me and not
>> the host that will be held responsible for posting it. I do not want
>> that responsibility.
>> 
>> Under the current HPR rules I am allowed to reject this submission.
>> 
>> Before I do, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible on this
>> topic so that we can gauge the opinions of the HPR Community as a
>whole.
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org
>>
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>> 

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Re: [Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Mike Ray]

If you are in any doubt at all about it, and your head might be on the
block if it violates any rules, then reject it.

Erring on the cautious side is the best policy here.  And there are
plenty of things to podcast about on HPR without needing to resort to
including potentially copyrighted audio clips.

A few days ago I was thinking about a podcast about the BBC shipping
forecast.  But I rejected the idea since I can hardly talk about the
shipping forecast without playing the 'Sailing By' tune which always
plays before it at 1:00 AM.  But that is no doubt copyright, so I won't
do it.



On 23/05/2019 09:50, Ken Fallon wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Under safe harbor provisions, we as volunteers are usually insulated
> from any copyright issues that may arise in the shows. "We do not vet,
> edit, moderate or in any way censor any of the shows on the network, we
> trust you to do that."
> 
> This we got by accident because "This is a long standing tradition
> arising from the fact that HPR is a community of peers who believe that
> any host has as much right to submit shows as any other."
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#not_moderated
> 
> In the show notes associated with hpr2829 on 2019-06-06, the host
> included the following text "For all included materials: If anyone feels
> they have right to any material in this show please let me know and I
> will comply."
> 
> This violates the HPR upload policy
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission
> 
> "Never include content, for example music, in your show that you do not
> have permission to redistribute. Try to avoid using any content in your
> show that can not be redistributed under a Creative Commons
> Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. If you are redistributing
> under another Creative Commons License or by arranged permission please
> make note of the restrictions when you upload your show. We can then
> signal that, so that others who redistribute HPR content can filter your
> show out."
> 
> As it was clear that they were not in compliance, I contacted the host.
> The host has been very helpful and has already removed some of the
> content but commented "There are still 2 audio clips included. I claim I
> can use them on the basis off fair use principles."
> 
> While the host may be correct, if they are not, then it is me and not
> the host that will be held responsible for posting it. I do not want
> that responsibility.
> 
> Under the current HPR rules I am allowed to reject this submission.
> 
> Before I do, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible on this
> topic so that we can gauge the opinions of the HPR Community as a whole.
> 
> 
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> http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
> 


-- 
Michael A. Ray
Analyst/Programmer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when
there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery


https://cromarty.github.io/
http://eyesfreelinux.ninja/
http://www.raspberryvi.org/





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[Hpr] Should we reject a show with copyrighted fair use clips in it ?

[Ken Fallon]

Hi All,

Under safe harbor provisions, we as volunteers are usually insulated
from any copyright issues that may arise in the shows. "We do not vet,
edit, moderate or in any way censor any of the shows on the network, we
trust you to do that."

This we got by accident because "This is a long standing tradition
arising from the fact that HPR is a community of peers who believe that
any host has as much right to submit shows as any other."
http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#not_moderated

In the show notes associated with hpr2829 on 2019-06-06, the host
included the following text "For all included materials: If anyone feels
they have right to any material in this show please let me know and I
will comply."

This violates the HPR upload policy
http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#permission

"Never include content, for example music, in your show that you do not
have permission to redistribute. Try to avoid using any content in your
show that can not be redistributed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license. If you are redistributing
under another Creative Commons License or by arranged permission please
make note of the restrictions when you upload your show. We can then
signal that, so that others who redistribute HPR content can filter your
show out."

As it was clear that they were not in compliance, I contacted the host.
The host has been very helpful and has already removed some of the
content but commented "There are still 2 audio clips included. I claim I
can use them on the basis off fair use principles."

While the host may be correct, if they are not, then it is me and not
the host that will be held responsible for posting it. I do not want
that responsibility.

Under the current HPR rules I am allowed to reject this submission.

Before I do, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible on this
topic so that we can gauge the opinions of the HPR Community as a whole.

-- 
Regards,

Ken Fallon
http://kenfallon.com
http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30



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