[IAEP] Tony's comments on localization (was: Re: IAEP Digest, Vol 100, Issue 21)

[Sebastian Silva]

El 10/07/16 a las 03:09, Tony Anderson escribió:

> To be repetitive: our goal should be to support localization at our
> Sugar deployments. If possible, we should enlist the help of people at
> the deployment sites since they have the indispensable knowledge for
> translation - a native knowledge of the local language and andequate
> knowledge of the source language.
Some of us believe Free Software and Sugar are in a unique position to
support languages which don't have support from mainstream systems.
Meanwhile there exists Windows in Cherokee already.
> The purpose of the Lion.activity is to help this along. So far I have
> not received only one comment on Lion - not one from someone who tried
> it.
This is what usually happens when one releases an activity. I did try
and comment an earlier version. I think an offline translation tool is
vital for translation efforts so I congratulate you for pushing it.
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Re: [IAEP] [OLPC-SF] OLPC-SF July meeting this Saturday

[Dave Crossland]

On 6 July 2016 at 11:17, Aaron D Borden  wrote:

> Agenda
> - Meet and greet
> - Vision, mission, and goals
> - Summit planning
> - Project updates
>

Were any minutes taken? If not, I'm curious to hear more about the
Vision/mission/goals discussion and if the statement was adopted at the
meeting? :)
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Re: [IAEP] Britain to help 175,000 girls in world’s poorest countries get an education

[Dave Crossland]

On 10 July 2016 at 14:54, Sean DALY  wrote:

>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-help-175000-girls-in-worlds-poorest-countries-get-an-education
>
> The Department for International Development (DFID) will provide £100
> million through the Girls’ Education Challenge to help girls who have
> dropped out or never attended school due to family crises, poverty, child
> marriage or early pregnancy. The funding will also be used to continue the
> Girls’ Education Challenge’s support for 1 million disadvantaged girls
> across the developing world.
>
> Statement of action:
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/girls-education-forum-statement-of-action
>

Thanks for sharing Sean!

The most relevant part of this I could find was in
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/536300/Commitments_in_support_of_the_GEF_Statement_of_Action.pdf
:

Vodafone reiterates its commitment to use mobile technology to bring
education to refugee girls, reaching a potential 3 million young people in
refugee camps across Vodafone countries of operation by 2020 (HeforShe
commitment). Vodafone will do this in two ways: (i) Building schools in
refugee camps: Vodafone has established 20 Instant Network schools
providing internet connectivity, power, tablets, mobile content and teacher
training in Kenya, DRC and South Sudan. (ii) Vodafone is launching the
Vodafone Instant Schools for Africa initiative this Autumn, providing
millions of young people in DRC, Ghana, Kenya, Lesotho, Mozambique and
Tanzania with free access to digital education resources developed by
Learning Equality.


I wonder how to contact them to learn what their requirements would be to
use Sugar in these schools... I found that the Director of the Vodafone
Foundation is Andrew Dunnett who appears to own the
https://twitter.com/vodafonefdn account so tweeted to him -
https://twitter.com/davelab6/status/752320606646001664 - and I'll follow up
if I hear back :)

Ps. I noticed that
http://www.vodafone.com/content/index/about/foundation.html has their
Mission Statement which I thought was insightful for our big discussion:

Through a unique network of 27 local Foundations and social investment
programmes, Vodafone invests in the communities in which it operates. The
Vodafone Foundations are committed to connecting communities around the
world to improve lives. The underlying belief of the Foundations is that
connectivity drives change.  The Vodafone Foundations use the companies
charitable giving, their fundraising capability and privileged access to
Vodafone networks, technology, customers and employees to connect people
with the necessary tools to make a difference in the world.
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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Dave Crossland]

On Jul 10, 2016 1:44 PM, "Tony Anderson"  wrote:
>
> Recently it has become the 'public' alternative to the SLOBs list.
Sure, I dont see any trouble in this. What harm do you see? What
alternative do you suggest? :)

>
> Tony
>
>
> On 07/10/2016 07:32 PM, Dave Crossland wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 10 July 2016 at 13:26, Tony Anderson  wrote:
>>>
>>> Where is our list regarding the educational goals of Sugar?
>>
>>
>> Threads regarding the educational goals of Sugar are not to do with
software development technicalities so therefore happen on this list in
addition to all other topics. Right?
>>
>>
>
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Re: [IAEP] SOAS Page?

[Martin Dengler]

Dave,

> On 10 Jul 2016, at 18:43, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> Who is responsible for the text and illustrations on 
> https://spins.fedoraproject.org/soas/ ? :) 

I don't know, but there is a link at the bottom of the page:

Please send any comments or corrections to the websites team.


> -- 
> Cheers
> Dave

Martin

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Re: [IAEP] Save as

[Martin Dengler]

Tony,

> On 10 Jul 2016, at 16:34, Tony Anderson  wrote:
> 
> It is hard to describe 'Untitled' as an innovation since it is used by major 
> applications everywhere. 

There are many things that Sugar does differently than major applications 
everywhere. It was painful to re-think assumptions based on "major 
applications", but usually worthwhile.

> Tony

Martin
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Re: [IAEP] Tony's comments on localization

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Sebastian

I have great difficulty understanding why we don't take advantage of 
that position to enlist our
users worldwide to assist by supplying their unique knowledge of their 
own language.


Tony

On 07/10/2016 04:24 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:

Some of us believe Free Software and Sugar are in a unique position to
support languages which don't have support from mainstream systems.
Meanwhile there exists Windows in Cherokee already.


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Re: [IAEP] Save as

[Tony Anderson]

It is hard to describe 'Untitled' as an innovation since it is used by 
major applications everywhere.


Tony


On 07/10/2016 02:51 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:


Tony,

Please don't write in private.

"Untitled" is an innovation. Currently untitled documents carry the 
activity name.



El 10/07/16 a las 07:04, Tony Anderson escribió:

Hi, All

I don't understand why this has to be so difficult. If you have ever 
used an MS Office or Libre Office application, you know that you have 
the option to save and the option to save as. This means that you can 
'save', overwriting the document stored on disk (updating it) or save 
as, meaning you can store it as a new document with the name and 
location of your choosing.


In the case of Sugar, the document will be stored in the Journal so 
the user has no need or opportunity to choose a location. However, 
there is still a need to be able to 'save' or 'save as' .


Consider:

You open Paint and create a red X and save it as x. Then you open x 
and change the image to a blue O. You want to save it as O, so you 
change the name.

Now try to open X. It is gone.

Suppose you open Paint to show someone how to select a brush and give 
it a color. You scribble something. When asked for a name, you click 
on 'quit' because there is not need to save this image.


The alert should be simple:

*Please give your project a title.   [Untitled] Save Quit*

The default title is 'Untitled' not 'Write.activity'. If the user 
clicks save with the title unchanged, it is ignored. If the user 
clicks on Quit, the activity quits (with no save of the Document - 
but the metadata is saved). if the user resumes an activity the alert 
shows:


*Change the title to save as a new document[X]  Save Quit*

 The user changes the title [X] to [Y]. Then Save saves Y to the 
Journal and X is still in the Journal as well. If the user doesn't 
change and clicks Save, the X object is deleted and the new X version 
is saved. if the user clicks on Quit - the document is not saved, the 
original X document is in the Journal

and the activity quits.

Tony





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Re: [IAEP] Save as

[Sebastian Silva]

El 10/07/16 a las 10:34, Tony Anderson escribió:
> It is hard to describe 'Untitled' as an innovation since it is used by
> major applications everywhere. 
I speak in the context of Sugar
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Re: [IAEP] Save As

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Sebastian

I don't know how to respond. You are still addressing procedural issues. 
Is there some reason you want to ask questions on a PR and not address 
them with the developer or me?


Why do you expect mentors to be active in github? I am not a developer 
and have no intention to become one. I am a user of Sugar and support 
its use at a number of sites. I would like Sugar to provide certain 
features which I think will make it more useful.


Tony





On 07/10/2016 06:06 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:


El 10/07/16 a las 10:58, Tony Anderson escribió:

Hi,

In this private email, I want to express my disappointment that there
is only a discussion of procedure, not of substance. This appears to be a
current habit in our community.

You have both expressed concerns about the Sazve As feature in the PR
itself (One would think these comments would be sent to the developer
and in the context of GSOC, to the mentors. I would like ot make
certain your questions have been answered safisfactorally, if you
would take the time to reply to the point of the communication and not
to how it was done.


One would expect mentors to be active in Github. The response on
procedure was because it was bad procedure. You seem to enjoy doing
that, and at the same time avoid channels where people actually do the
work. I can't keep up with private threads, sorry. Please subscribe to
the relevant Sugar github channels. I tried to mention you but could not
find your github username anywhere (I guess it's buried in a private email).
.



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Re: [IAEP] [Systems] Maintenance downtime today for OS upgrades

[Bernie Innocenti]

On 10/07/16 12:57, Bernie Innocenti wrote:
> On 09/07/16 19:15, Bernie Innocenti wrote:
> 
>> Most notably, activities.sugarlabs.org is still down. It probably
>> doesn't like PHP 7... The wiki is also very slow because I had to
>> disable APC until I understand how to make Mediawiki use the new APCu.
> 
> I'm still working to restore ASLO. It's an old codebase that was still
> using PHP features that were deprecated in PHP 5.5 and removed in PHP 7...

I finally got ASLO to display its front page, but activities are not
being listed. I had to switch the DB backend to mysqli because the mysql
extension has been removed in PHP7.

Aleksey, since you're familiar with ASLO's codebase, would you be able
to look into the outstanding issues?

-- 
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 \X/  http://codewiz.org
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[IAEP] SOAS Page?

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

Who is responsible for the text and illustrations on
https://spins.fedoraproject.org/soas/ ? :)

-- 
Cheers
Dave
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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Tony Anderson]

Recently it has become the 'public' alternative to the SLOBs list.

Tony

On 07/10/2016 07:32 PM, Dave Crossland wrote:


On 10 July 2016 at 13:26, Tony Anderson > wrote:


Where is our list regarding the educational goals of Sugar?


Threads regarding the educational goals of Sugar are not to do with 
software development technicalities so therefore happen on this list 
in addition to all other topics. Right?





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Re: [IAEP] Save As

[Sebastian Silva]

El 10/07/16 a las 13:20, Tony Anderson escribió:
> Hi, Sebastian
>
> I write a lot of spaghetti code. I don't know anywhere it is written
> that code can only be written or appear on github. Has this become the
> monopoly of software?
No, but it's what we use in Sugar.
>
> I am really sorry that you raise what you apparently believe are
> serious issues and are unable to discuss them.
I am perfectly able to discuss them, publicly.
Here's where the public discussion is going on:
https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3/pull/327
>
> You seem to have a lot of time to quibble over procedural issues.
Time is all I have, Tony.

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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Sebastian Silva]

El 10/07/16 a las 13:17, Tony Anderson escribió:
> Who made that decision? Where is it recorded? Is it a part of our
> bylaws? How are we supposed to know that?

It has been affirmed many times over the years. But I guess it bears
repetition.

Recently Walter confirmed this intent and committed to forwarding emails
from SLOBS (with some criteria) when appropriate.
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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Sebastian Silva]

Tony,

I don't understand why you act offended.

This is in our statement of organizational principles:

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs


Information

  * Regular reports – Reported activities and future plans allow
monitoring and participation.
  * Information accessible – Even internal operational information is
available by default.

We try to operate /*en plein air

*/.

  * Explicit confidentiality – It is explained what matters are
confidential, why, and who can access them.

As an elected SLOB I expect you to abide by Sugar Lab's principles.

Regards,

Sebastian


El 10/07/16 a las 13:26, Tony Anderson escribió:
> Enough. Deciding to make actions of the Oversight Board public by
> posting them on another list is not a decision on the purpose of the
> SLOBs list.
>
> Tony
>
> On 07/10/2016 08:21 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:
>>
>> El 10/07/16 a las 13:17, Tony Anderson escribió:
>>> Who made that decision? Where is it recorded? Is it a part of our
>>> bylaws? How are we supposed to know that?
>> It has been affirmed many times over the years. But I guess it bears
>> repetition.
>>
>> Recently Walter confirmed this intent and committed to forwarding emails
>> from SLOBS (with some criteria) when appropriate.
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Tony's comments on localization

[Dave Crossland]

On 10 July 2016 at 12:16, Nick Doiron  wrote:

> Your primary issue would be getting a Cherokee font (including recent
> Unicode addition of lower-case letters) to work on the laptop.
>

Google Noto solves this :)
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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Sebastian Silva]

El 10/07/16 a las 12:44, Tony Anderson escribió:

> Recently it has become the 'public' alternative to the SLOBs list. 
Actually, SLOBs list was never meant to be used except when privacy
concerns made it unavoidable.
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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Sebastian

I use private communication when I feel it is appropriate. There is no 
way for me to know when you or Sam place comments
on a PR, so that communication might as well be private. In the context 
of GSOC, it might have been appropriate to mention

this in a public or private email to Utkarsh and myself.

Since you are helping as mentor for this project, I am particularly 
surprised you did not inform me of your comment.


I agree that it is not good practice to fill the lists with email. 
However, since the various flaps concerning the Oversight Board, it is very
hard to find a discussion in IAEP that has any connection to education. 
I am sure you also are getting multiple emails from Dave Crossland - 
often I get as many as four copies.


Tony

On 07/10/2016 05:43 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:

On 07/10/2016 02:51 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:

Tony,

Please don't write in private.


Hi Tony,
I have asked that you do not write in private in the context of GSOC.

In response you copied IAEP _and_ sugar-devel. It's not a good practice
to use more than one list (I just learned this some time ago).

One list would suffice, or, in this case, since it is about a specific
Github PR, we can use that. The point is not to loose important
discussions where nobody can ever find them.

Thanks!
Sebastian
.



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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Dave Crossland]

On Jul 10, 2016 11:54 AM, "Tony Anderson"  wrote:
>
> Hi, Sebastian
>
> I use private communication when I feel it is appropriate. There is no
way for me to know when you or Sam place comments
> on a PR, so that communication might as well be private.

I have some good news for you :)
You can get entailed every comment in a github report by clicking the
"watch" button at the top right of a repo page.

To can subscribe to specific issues and prs using the notify button on the
right side bar at its end, on the issue/ PR page

> In the context of GSOC, it might have been appropriate to mention
> this in a public or private email to Utkarsh and myself.
>
> Since you are helping as mentor for this project, I am particularly
surprised you did not inform me of your comment.
>
> I agree that it is not good practice to fill the lists with email.
However, since the various flaps concerning the Oversight Board, it is very
> hard to find a discussion in IAEP that has any connection to education. I
am sure you also are getting multiple emails from Dave Crossland - often I
get as many as four copies.

I just reply all. I do not email more than 1 list when I start a thread.

Mailman can be configured to reject emails to a list with more recipients
than the list, or to specific addresses. When I have proposed changing
mailman configs no one supported my suggestion. But I would support a
proposal to make the sl lists refuse emails to more than 1 list.

> Tony
>
>
> On 07/10/2016 05:43 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:
>>
>> On 07/10/2016 02:51 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:

 Tony,

 Please don't write in private.

>> Hi Tony,
>> I have asked that you do not write in private in the context of GSOC.
>>
>> In response you copied IAEP _and_ sugar-devel. It's not a good practice
>> to use more than one list (I just learned this some time ago).
>>
>> One list would suffice, or, in this case, since it is about a specific
>> Github PR, we can use that. The point is not to loose important
>> discussions where nobody can ever find them.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Sebastian
>> .
>>
>
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Re: [IAEP] Tony's comments on localization

[Nick Doiron]

re Cherokee language: I had the opportunity to work with Cherokee Nation on
a technology localization project five years ago when I was at Esri

The Cherokee Nation has a specially organized team involved in translating
tech.
Your primary issue would be getting a Cherokee font (including recent
Unicode addition of lower-case letters) to work on the laptop.
Cherokee schools also have a good relationship with Apple, so they've
localized the Mac and iOS for school use already.  If you had a compelling
reason for Sugar in their schools, you'd want to explain it to their
localization group and see what they think.

Nick
On Jul 10, 2016 11:28 AM, "Tony Anderson"  wrote:

Hi, Sebastian

I have great difficulty understanding why we don't take advantage of that
position to enlist our
users worldwide to assist by supplying their unique knowledge of their own
language.

Tony

On 07/10/2016 04:24 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:

> Some of us believe Free Software and Sugar are in a unique position to
> support languages which don't have support from mainstream systems.
> Meanwhile there exists Windows in Cherokee already.
>

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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Tony's comments on localization

[Nick Doiron]

on the web, sure, I'd use Google Noto or the Cherokee Nation's preferred
font Digowheli (sp?)

how do you get it into Write and the Sugar interface though?  how are you
going to get the keyboard input working?  Kanji is supported by many
keyboards and fonts, but I've never seen an XO type those characters
On Jul 10, 2016 12:30 PM, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:

>
> On 10 July 2016 at 12:16, Nick Doiron  wrote:
>
>> Your primary issue would be getting a Cherokee font (including recent
>> Unicode addition of lower-case letters) to work on the laptop.
>>
>
> Google Noto solves this :)
>
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Re: [IAEP] [Systems] Maintenance downtime today for OS upgrades

[Bernie Innocenti]

On 09/07/16 19:15, Bernie Innocenti wrote:

> Most notably, activities.sugarlabs.org is still down. It probably
> doesn't like PHP 7... The wiki is also very slow because I had to
> disable APC until I understand how to make Mediawiki use the new APCu.

I'm still working to restore ASLO. It's an old codebase that was still
using PHP features that were deprecated in PHP 5.5 and removed in PHP 7...

-- 
 _ // Bernie Innocenti
 \X/  http://codewiz.org
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Re: [IAEP] Save As

[Sebastian Silva]

El 10/07/16 a las 12:42, Tony Anderson escribió:
> I don't know how to respond. You are still addressing procedural
> issues. Is there some reason you want to ask questions on a PR and not
> address them with the developer or me?
That is inaccurate. The developer gets all of our comments in the PR.
You should be in the PR even if you don't plan to develop.
>
> Why do you expect mentors to be active in github? I am not a developer
> and have no intention to become one. I am a user of Sugar and support
> its use at a number of sites. I would like Sugar to provide certain
> features which I think will make it more useful. 
Because it's Summer of *Code*. And because that is how improvements in
Sugar are done. It used to be in sugar-devel, but not anymore, and it's
not my decision to make.

The reason is that I just can't follow many dozen-message lenght threads
that switch topics all the time. Instead, PR are bite-sized and end with
a merge.
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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Tony Anderson]

Enough. Deciding to make actions of the Oversight Board public by 
posting them on another list is not a decision on the purpose of the 
SLOBs list.


Tony

On 07/10/2016 08:21 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:


El 10/07/16 a las 13:17, Tony Anderson escribió:

Who made that decision? Where is it recorded? Is it a part of our
bylaws? How are we supposed to know that?

It has been affirmed many times over the years. But I guess it bears
repetition.

Recently Walter confirmed this intent and committed to forwarding emails
from SLOBS (with some criteria) when appropriate.
.



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[IAEP] Britain to help 175,000 girls in world’s poorest countries get an education

[Sean DALY]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-help-175000-girls-in-worlds-poorest-countries-get-an-education

The Department for International Development (DFID) will provide £100
million through the Girls’ Education Challenge to help girls who have
dropped out or never attended school due to family crises, poverty, child
marriage or early pregnancy. The funding will also be used to continue the
Girls’ Education Challenge’s support for 1 million disadvantaged girls
across the developing world.


Statement of action:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/girls-education-forum-statement-of-action
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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Sebastian Silva]

El 10/07/16 a las 12:26, Tony Anderson escribió:
> Where is our list regarding the educational goals of Sugar?
>
Yup, this is it.

As a rule of thumb, if it mentions git or Python, use sugar-devel.

;-)

> Tony
>
> On 07/10/2016 06:10 PM, Dave Crossland wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Jul 10, 2016 11:54 AM, "Tony Anderson"  wrote:
>> >
>> > However, since the various flaps concerning the Oversight Board, it
>> is very
>> > hard to find a discussion in IAEP that has any connection to
>> education.
>>
>> My understanding is that this list is for threads not to do with
>> software development technicalities but anything else to do with the
>> project:
>>
>> "Its An Education _Project_"
>>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Tony Anderson]

Who made that decision? Where is it recorded? Is it a part of our 
bylaws? How are we supposed to know that?


Tony

On 07/10/2016 07:45 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:

El 10/07/16 a las 12:44, Tony Anderson escribió:


Recently it has become the 'public' alternative to the SLOBs list.

Actually, SLOBs list was never meant to be used except when privacy
concerns made it unavoidable.
.



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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Dave Crossland]

On 10 July 2016 at 13:26, Tony Anderson  wrote:

> Where is our list regarding the educational goals of Sugar?
>

Threads regarding the educational goals of Sugar are not to do with
software development technicalities so therefore happen on this list in
addition to all other topics. Right?
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Re: [IAEP] Save As

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Sebastian

I write a lot of spaghetti code. I don't know anywhere it is written 
that code can only be written or appear on github. Has this become the 
monopoly of software?


I am really sorry that you raise what you apparently believe are serious 
issues and are unable to discuss them.


You seem to have a lot of time to quibble over procedural issues.

Tony

On 07/10/2016 07:48 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:


El 10/07/16 a las 12:42, Tony Anderson escribió:

I don't know how to respond. You are still addressing procedural
issues. Is there some reason you want to ask questions on a PR and not
address them with the developer or me?

That is inaccurate. The developer gets all of our comments in the PR.
You should be in the PR even if you don't plan to develop.

Why do you expect mentors to be active in github? I am not a developer
and have no intention to become one. I am a user of Sugar and support
its use at a number of sites. I would like Sugar to provide certain
features which I think will make it more useful.

Because it's Summer of *Code*. And because that is how improvements in
Sugar are done. It used to be in sugar-devel, but not anymore, and it's
not my decision to make.

The reason is that I just can't follow many dozen-message lenght threads
that switch topics all the time. Instead, PR are bite-sized and end with
a merge.
.



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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Dave Crossland]

On Jul 10, 2016 11:54 AM, "Tony Anderson"  wrote:
>
> However, since the various flaps concerning the Oversight Board, it is
very
> hard to find a discussion in IAEP that has any connection to education.

My understanding is that this list is for threads not to do with software
development technicalities but anything else to do with the project:

"Its An Education _Project_"
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Re: [IAEP] Private emails (was Re: Save as)

[Tony Anderson]

Where is our list regarding the educational goals of Sugar?

Tony

On 07/10/2016 06:10 PM, Dave Crossland wrote:



On Jul 10, 2016 11:54 AM, "Tony Anderson" > wrote:

>
> However, since the various flaps concerning the Oversight Board, it 
is very

> hard to find a discussion in IAEP that has any connection to education.

My understanding is that this list is for threads not to do with 
software development technicalities but anything else to do with the 
project:


"Its An Education _Project_"



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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Save as

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Sebastian

Then, the word 'change' might be more appropriate. Note: I am not 
proposing it be changed in its current usage, but only in as the default 
text

in place of the current blank text.

Tony

On 07/10/2016 05:36 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:


El 10/07/16 a las 10:34, Tony Anderson escribió:

It is hard to describe 'Untitled' as an innovation since it is used by
major applications everywhere.

I speak in the context of Sugar
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