Re: [IAEP] Sustainability and "ChocoToDance" / Sostenibilidad y el "ChocoBaile"

[Laura Vargas]

Oh I forgot the link! Ups! Olvide el enlace:


https://www.chocotodance.com/

Sorry and blessings / Lo siento y bendiciones

2016-04-21 13:33 GMT+08:00 Laura Vargas :

> [Español abajo]
>
> Hello All,
>
> Lately I been dedicating a lot of time thinking in a sustainability model
> to propose to finance/grant Active Community members. I believe that with
> some funds, a lot of collaboration and a bit of creativity this task can
> get accomplished.
>
> I would like to share with you this initiative from some creative
> Colombian colleagues, that are probably making history in the creation of
> an innovator model to finance the Education in their Community.
>
> For what is worth it would be nice to know if there are any Sugar+XO
> deployed somewhere near by Chocó ;D
>
> Cheers and good Dance!
>
> Hola a todos,
>
> En estos días he dedicado bastante tiempo en un modelo de sostenibilidad
> para proponer para financiar/becar a los miembros Activos de la Comunidad.
> Creo que con algunos fondos, mucha colaboración y un poco de creatividad
> se puede lograr.
>
> Quiero compartirles esta iniciativa de algunos colegas creativos
> Colombianos, que están -creo yo- haciendo historia en la creación de un
> modelo innovador para apalancar la Educación en su comunidad.
>
> Valdría la pena saber si hay alguna intervención de Sugar+XO en la zona.
>
> Cordial Saludo y a Bailar :D
>
> --
> Laura V.
> I&D SomosAZUCAR.Org
>
> Identi.ca/Skype acaire
> IRC kaametza
>
> Happy Learning!
>
>


-- 
Laura V.
I&D SomosAZUCAR.Org

Identi.ca/Skype acaire
IRC kaametza

Happy Learning!
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[IAEP] Sustainability and "ChocoToDance" / Sostenibilidad y el "ChocoBaile"

[Laura Vargas]

[Español abajo]

Hello All,

Lately I been dedicating a lot of time thinking in a sustainability model
to propose to finance/grant Active Community members. I believe that with
some funds, a lot of collaboration and a bit of creativity this task can
get accomplished.

I would like to share with you this initiative from some creative Colombian
colleagues, that are probably making history in the creation of an
innovator model to finance the Education in their Community.

For what is worth it would be nice to know if there are any Sugar+XO
deployed somewhere near by Chocó ;D

Cheers and good Dance!

Hola a todos,

En estos días he dedicado bastante tiempo en un modelo de sostenibilidad
para proponer para financiar/becar a los miembros Activos de la Comunidad.
Creo que con algunos fondos, mucha colaboración y un poco de creatividad se
puede lograr.

Quiero compartirles esta iniciativa de algunos colegas creativos
Colombianos, que están -creo yo- haciendo historia en la creación de un
modelo innovador para apalancar la Educación en su comunidad.

Valdría la pena saber si hay alguna intervención de Sugar+XO en la zona.

Cordial Saludo y a Bailar :D

-- 
Laura V.
I&D SomosAZUCAR.Org

Identi.ca/Skype acaire
IRC kaametza

Happy Learning!
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Re: [IAEP] [SLOBS] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Tony Anderson]

At the suggestion of several participants in this thread, I have created 
a 'feature-like' description of a proposed
'Lion activity' at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Lion_Activity. There 
seems to a concensus that this is the best way to proceed

on this discussion.

Tony

On 04/21/2016 01:54 AM, Dave Crossland wrote:


On 20 April 2016 at 13:45, Chris Leonard > wrote:


A hypothetical Translate Activity would be a
logical extension of the Sugar HIG concept of showing source code and
have substantial potential ot reach an even wider audience than we do
currently and by implementing a unique "bootstrapping" capability.


I would like to see Sugarizer become self-translatable, and with 
sugar-web, thus make sugar desktop self-translatable.



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Re: [IAEP] Wiki Gardening Weekend (May 14-15, Boston, USA)

[Iain Brown Douglas]

On Wed, 2016-04-20 at 10:34 +1000, James Cameron wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 04:20:49PM +0100, Iain Brown Douglas wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > It seems this conversation has gone a long way from wiki gardening :)
> > 
> > My feeling is that the wiki does not serve _New_to_Sugar_ users
> > well.
> 
> +1
> 
> > Moreover as there is a lack of reliable first steps information, new
> > content cannot be written referring back to such.
> > 
> > In general, I believe we need more content with screen shots aimed at
> > _New_to_Sugar_ users, but they would be better delivered via slide show
> > than scrolling pages.
> > 
> > New to Jekyll, I did not work out how to do a slide show in Jekyll and
> > Markdown. Can anyone point to a site that does this successfully?
> > 
> > So I just ploughed on and generated content using Remark[1].
> > 
> > An alternative Sphinx-based, slide show effort is used in SoaS
> > Loader[2], but the product became over-weight in detail. [...]
> 
> Programmers among us have let you down there; you've had to devote
> many slides to a very complex install process.
> 
>   http://soas-loader.readthedocs.org
> 
> Now, install for Fedora 23 SoaS is just type "sudo liveinst" in
> Terminal activity.
> 
I believe 8 GB sticks made by this method are more stable than
compressed ones.

> Future, Sugar could have a My Settings control panel which starts
> "sudo liveinst" on demand.

What would be the protection against wiping the host hard drive? :)

It was this concern that has stopped me writing up the liveinst method.

Liveinst to a Windows XP PC from the junk yard, is a simple way of
introducing Sugar to home or classroom.

I am indulging in this conversation a little, thinking / dreaming of a
non-technical "How to get Sugar 2016" ... :)

Iain
> 
> That way your SoaS Loader would reduce to "click here, click there,
> answer questions".
> 
> (Development of this feature would be made faster by respinning SoaS with
> updated Sugar packages.  +CC linuxmodder from #sugar.)
> 
> > I am submitting, again, my concept of a gallery[3] by way of
> > conversation.
> > 
> > Apropos wiki gardening, are there any views on what else is wrong with
> > the wiki?
> > 
> > One serious problem is that using "Search" button indicates material
> > which may be obsolete but unmarked as such.
> > [3] http://inkyfingers.github.io/gallery/
> > 
> > 
> > > Once https://github.com/sugarlabs/www-sugarlabs/pull/19 is merged,
> > > I'll ask systems@ to create two A records that point the sugarlabs.org
> > > domain to 192.30.252.153 and 192.30.252.154, per
> > > https://help.github.com/articles/setting-up-an-apex-domain/
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Cheers
> > > Dave
> > > ___
> > > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> > > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> 


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Re: [IAEP] Wiki Gardening Weekend (May 14-15, Boston, USA)

[Iain Brown Douglas]

On Tue, 2016-04-19 at 20:35 -0400, Dave Crossland wrote:
> 
> On 19 April 2016 at 19:01, Iain Brown Douglas
>  wrote:
> No I didn't try it, but it's not markdown, I think.
> 
> 
> http://lab.hakim.se/reveal-js has markdown support, seems to have even
> more features, but perhaps you want less features for the homepage :) 
> 
I did experiment with reveal, and I went with remark for its simplicity.
> 
> 
> (And, as I said earlier in the thread, I'm not convinced that 'scroll
> jacking' the page into a slide deck is ideal for the homepage anyway,
> but I think its secondary :)

Agreed, I am experimenting with a slide show in a gallery, I am with you
that a slide deck would not help our front page.

Iain
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Re: [IAEP] Wiki Gardening Weekend (May 14-15, Boston, USA)

[Dave Crossland]

Hi Chris

On 20 April 2016 at 19:24, Chris Leonard  wrote:

> At the peril of actually discussing Wiki gardening on this thread,
> I've created a new wiki page to catch some areas that might deserve a
> little special attention.

https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Wiki_Team/Wiki_Gardening_Weekend_2016
>
> Please feel free to drop anything of relevance on this page
>

Great stuff!

I see your request for editorial control; that's what a git workflow
naturally allows.

Cheers
Dave
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Re: [IAEP] Wiki Gardening Weekend (May 14-15, Boston, USA)

[Chris Leonard]

At the peril of actually discussing Wiki gardening on this thread,
I've created a new wiki page to catch some areas that might deserve a
little special attention.


https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Wiki_Team/Wiki_Gardening_Weekend_2016

Please feel free to drop anything of relevance on this page

cjl



On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
> On 19 April 2016 at 19:01, Iain Brown Douglas 
> wrote:
>>
>> No I didn't try it, but it's not markdown, I think.
>
>
> http://lab.hakim.se/reveal-js has markdown support, seems to have even more
> features, but perhaps you want less features for the homepage :)
>
> (And, as I said earlier in the thread, I'm not convinced that 'scroll
> jacking' the page into a slide deck is ideal for the homepage anyway, but I
> think its secondary :)
>
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 April 2016 at 13:45, Chris Leonard  wrote:

> A hypothetical Translate Activity would be a
> logical extension of the Sugar HIG concept of showing source code and
> have substantial potential ot reach an even wider audience than we do
> currently and by implementing a unique "bootstrapping" capability.
>

I would like to see Sugarizer become self-translatable, and with sugar-web,
thus make sugar desktop self-translatable.
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[IAEP] Fwd: Sugar Labs' governance policies; stipend for Devin (was: Re: Fwd: Re: SLOBs approval needed for Bender expenses of $1,389.29 for Constructionalism 2016)

[Adam Holt]

-- Forwarded message --
From: "Tony Sebro" 
Date: Apr 20, 2016 1:29 PM
Subject: Sugar Labs' governance policies; stipend for Devin (was: Re: Fwd:
Re: SLOBs approval needed for Bender expenses of $1,389.29 for
Constructionalism 2016)
To: "Adam Holt" , 
Cc: "iaep" 

> On 04/09/2016 06:20 PM, Adam Holt wrote:
>>
>> Hi Karen Sandler & Tony Sebro,
>>
>> As experts on practical governance in the FLOSS space, does
SFConservancy have an opinion on Sugar Labs currently maintaining our
legally-required 501(c)(3) bylaws on an open-to-all wiki at
https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/Governance regularly changed by
passersby, without even mentioning the word "bylaws" curiously?
>
> To clarify, Sugar Labs isn't legally required to maintain 501(c)(3)
bylaws, since Sugar Labs isn't a 501(c)(3) organization.  Sugar Labs
operates under Conservancy's umbrella.  Conservancy's bylaws are available
on our website:
>
> http://sfconservancy.org/about/filings/
>
> That being said, it's fine and appropriate for Sugar Labs to publish
project its governance policies on its website.  I'm sure community members
appreciate the transparency.  :)
>
>> Any quick recommendations and best practices we should strive for to
improve our legal/governance stewardship, given your extensive experience?
>
> I'll take a look; if anything jumps out, I'll offer my suggestions.
>>
>> Finally, thanks in advancefor your help clarifying whether Devin
Ulibarri needs a contract per Bradley Kuhn's careful reply and question
below, or if a $500 invoice suffices?
>>
>>
> Given that Devin has already completed his travel, and given your
confirmation that the SLOBs approved this expenditure, we can remit payment
upon receipt of an invoice without an agreement.  But, going forward, I
would ask that we negotiate agreements to cover these kinds of stipends
going forward -- if only to avoid ambiguity between the parties involved.
>
> Best, -Tony
>
> --
> Tony Sebro, General Counsel, Software Freedom Conservancy
> [phone number redacted]
> t...@sfconservancy.org
> www.sfconservancy.org
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Chris Leonard]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:57 PM, Sebastian Silva
 wrote:
> El 20/04/16 a las 01:15, Chris Leonard escribió:
>> Such PO pre-conversion services are provided upon request and offered
>> where appropriate as are the complementary re-conversion and upload
>> services.
> Ideally we would have a proper Translate Activity that would work
> directly with git (even offline by producing patches).
>
> Would the Trip Advisor grantees consider developing such an Activity?
> If done right it could both facilitate i18n and motivate some Sugar
> Activity development.

My thoughts on the matter are that we need to survey our current
baseline, in progress, then discuss the results openly and consider
best paths forward.  A hypothetical Translate Activity would be a
logical extension of the Sugar HIG concept of showing source code and
have substantial potential ot reach an even wider audience than we do
currently and by implementing a unique "bootstrapping" capability.  It
would require substantial input from a broad array of stakeholders to
achieve it's potentially complex goals. IMHO, some good requirements
gathering and design specification should be done before just
launching into it.

Whether to turn such an effort into a funded project would need to be
subject to further discussion.  Our L10n funding has traditionally
been more-or-less a "single-source" contracting decision.  As in, "we
may only know one person or group who is standing up to do something
useful, do we want to support it"?

The question of core activity development has traditionally been
approached as a challenge of cultivating collaborating communities.  I
don't know under what terms OLPC got the AbiWord folks to develop the
initial version of Write, but that might be the closest example of an
activity with as wide a potential impact on the user-base in terms of
facilitating meaningful self-expression.

If a consensus of developing such an activity through funding emerged,
it would be advisable to consider a formal request for Proposal (RFP)
based on a well-developed consensus requirements document.  At least
that is my opinion.

cjl
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Re: [IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Chris Leonard]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
> On 20 April 2016 at 10:15, Chris Leonard  wrote:
>>
>>
>> We strongly encourage suitable licensing and attempt to use what leverage
>> we have (e.g. to host on ASLO or not) to nudge people in the path of
>> righteousness.
>
>
> Why not just have Sugar under GPL, then?
>

Sorry, forgot to include the obligatory IANAL in my reply.

I can't personally address your specific questions, IANAL, my attempt
at communicating some previous  history was not intended to convey the
official opinion of Sugar Labs or it's fiscal sponsor, the Conservancy
(SFC).  I only meant to say that when issues arise we try to deal with
them responsibly as a community dedicated to our stated principles.
We are very fortunate (through our fiscal sponsor) to have access to
some people who not only think very deep thoughts about open source
software licensing, but actually go out and fight the good fight to
defend those rights.

The Conservancy has often stated that compliance (not conflict) is
their goal (paraphrasing there) and has done excellent work by using
"soft power" and persuasion to achieve ends far more valuable than a
court order.   Sugar Labs has generally followed a similar strategy
and I hope will continue to do so.

To turn this discussion from theory to the practical, I am developing
a spreadsheet fo all activities hosted on ASLO.  My purpose is
initially related to i18n/L10n matters, so I am working on columns
defining the canonical repo, whether or not it has i18n, whether or
not it is currently hosted on Pootle, etc.

Let's pick an agreed upon format 9wiki, Google spreadsheet, whatever
as long as it supports table format and ideally sorting ,and I'll drop
my information there.  We'll make stone soup or whatever your cultural
variant of that is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Soup

If someone would go through and add a column for license information
and someone else would go through and add a column for GTK3 porting
we'd have a useful resource that is more accessible for such global
questions that the current one-by-one review of activities in ASLO.
Sadly, it will quickly fall out of concurrency and need to be done all
over again unless we develop some self-reporting tricks like the
proposals to include such information in activity.info files and build
a parsing-reporting tool, but in the meantime there will have been a
top-to-bottom sweep that might catch things of interest that can be
resolved.

What format do people favor for something with a few hundreds rows and
a dozen or so columns?

cjl
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Sebastian Silva]

El 20/04/16 a las 01:15, Chris Leonard escribió:
> Such PO pre-conversion services are provided upon request and offered
> where appropriate as are the complementary re-conversion and upload
> services.
Ideally we would have a proper Translate Activity that would work
directly with git (even offline by producing patches).

Would the Trip Advisor grantees consider developing such an Activity?
If done right it could both facilitate i18n and motivate some Sugar
Activity development.

Regards,

Sebastian
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Re: [IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Bert Freudenberg]

On 20.04.2016, at 18:24, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> 
>> I understand that in 2016, Scratch has faded away, and Pharo has taken over 
>> active development. I saw they rewrote all the Apache parts. 
> 
> Pharo has forked, yes, but Squeak is very much alive. Pharo is just better at 
> marketing.
> 
> Where can I learn more about the nature of the fork? :)


Squeak is the leading open-source Smalltalk dialect, dedicated to be a personal 
computing environment for children of all ages, going back all the way to 
Alan's Dynabook idea. Etoys and Scratch were developed in that tradition.

Pharo sees itself as “Smalltalk-inspired” and is focused on business 
applications (see http://pharo.org/about ).

For more details you should join e.g. the Squeak developers list, this here is 
not the right place.

- Bert -



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Chris Leonard]

Laura,

Certainly.  Most of the discussion so far has been in a context of
exchanging some very basic information about how i18n/L10n works in
the Sugar context that could easily have been done on an open forum
(although repetitive for many), but the lessons learned or conclusions
reached will make their way to the wiki and open forums as they mature
from simple exploration of the baseline to ideas on moving forward.

My purpose in replying at greater length with the 'key hurdles" was in
fact just such a sharing of information that I think not everyone
understands at the level achieved by people like you and Sebastian who
have actually struggled with landing a new language for a Sugar
community.

cjl

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Laura Vargas  wrote:
>
> 2016-04-20 21:33 GMT+08:00 Chris Leonard :
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>> > (removed every cc but ieap)
>> >
>> > On 20 April 2016 at 02:15, Chris Leonard 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> As a practical matter, full-time internet connectivity is not required
>> >> for effective L10n work.
>> >
>> >
>> > I agree, and I think that generally more can be done to make "Sugar On A
>> > Stick" into "Sugar Local Lab On A Stick" so that sugar communities
>> > without
>> > active/direct internet connections can do more to self-support
>> > themselves,
>> > and eventually upload what they have back to the central repos.
>> >
>> > I've thus added a note about this to the vision proposal:
>> >
>> > We develop our software to run on every computer device, from desktops
>> > and
>> > laptops to tablets and smartphones, and to run in situations with local
>> > networks without direct internet connections.
>> >
>> >
>> > - https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Vision_proposal_2016
>>
>> Indeed, Tony and I have been looking into determining and breaking
>> down the barriers to what I refer to as L10n "bootstrapping".
>> Enabling the local translation (in the classroom) to the local
>> language and further empowering the upstreaming of such translations
>> to our server for sharing worldwide.
>
>
> Chirs, Tony,
>
> You guys should seriously consider the benefits of open discussion for
> this/all kind of issues/challenges for/with the community to solve/share.
>
> Regards, LV
>
>>
>> Key barriers identified, so far:
>>
>> 1) The need for a suitable glibc locale.  This is a small file used by
>> GNU/Linux systems to teach the computer that the language exists anad
>> how to handle certain basic things, like sorting order, date
>> formatting etc accvording to suitable cultural conventions and
>> relevant standards.  We have so far dealt with this issue by
>> developing our own glibc locale files and either distributing them
>> ourselves (OLPC Tonga being one such example)
>>
>> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Tonga
>>
>> or by upstreaming the locale ot the glibc project and waiting for it
>> to trickle back downstream (Quechua, Aymara being prime examples).
>>
>> glibc locale development is sadly kind of complicated requiring
>> bringing together expertise in relatively obscure standards (ISO-639,
>> POSIX, etc., etc.), conversion of natural language to explicit Unicode
>> point representation, linguistic expertise in the language in
>> question, and perhaps most daunting, navigating the challenging
>> upstream glibc community to actually land a patch.  I have been
>> working with the glibc community for some time now and I have earned
>> committer status to reduce that last hurdle, but it is still not
>> inconsiderable.
>>
>> 2)  There are a few issues that should be relatively easy to work
>> around.  Getting the POT files, adapting a suitable process for PO
>> (and MO) file editing and placement, Modifying Sugar itself to
>> understand tha the language exists (an issue possibly moderated by a
>> change from having an ALL_LINGUAS line defined in configure.ac to
>> leveraging another standard method consisting of including a LINGUAS
>> file in the PO directory.
>>
>> 3) Local QA and upstreaming of the resulting translations.
>>
>> It is clearly an overall goal to provide a suitable toolchain and
>> simple process to enable "bootstrapping', but it will take some effort
>> to bring it all together.
>>
>> cjl
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Laura V.
> I&D SomosAZUCAR.Org
>
> Identi.ca/Skype acaire
> IRC kaametza
>
> Happy Learning!
>
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Laura Vargas]

Dear Samson,

As your helper in making this proposal I must insist and will help that we
continue the discussion about your proposal development openly -only- with
cc to the Committe. SLOBs, Localization List and IAEP.

It will be an example for others to follow and therefore it's
documentation/process development becomes an "asset/investment" for the
Community.

Regards and Blessings from the Amazon!

Laura V
cc Translation Commite

2016-04-20 20:59 GMT+08:00 Chris Leonard :

>  Were it my proposal, I would be more than happy to do so, but it is
> not.  I think it is a matter for the proposer and the SLOB to make
> that publication determination.  I will be creating suitable structure
> on the wiki for templates and yes, proposals in development, but we
> are still feeling our way towards what is a suitable general template.
>
> I am sorry that you feel annoyed, that is not the intent.  I will try
> to get the template up on the wiki as soon as possible to give you
> something to chew on.
>
> cjl
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:21 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> >
> > (removed all direct emails, only using iaep list)
> >
> > Hi Chris
> >
> > On 20 April 2016 at 01:39, Chris Leonard 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I worked with Samson to refine a narrower proposal that has been
> >> presented to the SLOB by email.  It is for the SLOB or Samson to
> >> decide how / when to share it with the wider community. It is for the
> >>
> >> SLOB to determine the how / when of discussing the proposal.  I am
> >> confident that all details will be public before any decision is
> >> taken, I would characterize them as generally similar to previously
> >> funded translation work, specific terms of which have been shared
> >> previously.
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the update, and the reassurances that the final proposal will
> be
> > made public before voting.
> >
> > Partly, I feel glad that this has moved forwards :)
> >
> > But I also feel annoyed. I need connection, and transparency. I would
> like
> > to participate.
> >
> > So I request that the proposal - and all proposals to SLOB - move to the
> > wiki, and the discussions move the IEAP list.
> >
> > --
> > Cheers
> > Dave
> >
> > ___
> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep




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I&D SomosAZUCAR.Org

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Re: [IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 April 2016 at 12:15, Bert Freudenberg  wrote:

>
> You’re confusing Scratch with Squeak.
>

Yes, I meant to refer to Squeak, not Scratch; I hadn't got around to
looking into Scratch


> Scratch came with its own license that was not GPL compatible. They’ve
> since changed that:
> http://wiki.scratch.mit.edu/wiki/Scratch_1.4_Source_Code
>

I'm saddened they picked GPLv2 in 2012; and the scratch license itself is
pretty awful. Tsk tsk :)


> I understand that in 2016, Scratch has faded away, and Pharo has taken
> over active development. I saw they rewrote all the Apache parts.
>
>
> Pharo has forked, yes, but Squeak is very much alive. Pharo is just better
> at marketing.
>

Where can I learn more about the nature of the fork? :)
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Laura Vargas]

2016-04-20 21:33 GMT+08:00 Chris Leonard :

> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> > (removed every cc but ieap)
> >
> > On 20 April 2016 at 02:15, Chris Leonard 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> As a practical matter, full-time internet connectivity is not required
> >> for effective L10n work.
> >
> >
> > I agree, and I think that generally more can be done to make "Sugar On A
> > Stick" into "Sugar Local Lab On A Stick" so that sugar communities
> without
> > active/direct internet connections can do more to self-support
> themselves,
> > and eventually upload what they have back to the central repos.
> >
> > I've thus added a note about this to the vision proposal:
> >
> > We develop our software to run on every computer device, from desktops
> and
> > laptops to tablets and smartphones, and to run in situations with local
> > networks without direct internet connections.
> >
> >
> > - https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Vision_proposal_2016
>
> Indeed, Tony and I have been looking into determining and breaking
> down the barriers to what I refer to as L10n "bootstrapping".
> Enabling the local translation (in the classroom) to the local
> language and further empowering the upstreaming of such translations
> to our server for sharing worldwide.
>

Chirs, Tony,

You guys should seriously consider the benefits of open discussion for
this/all kind of issues/challenges for/with the community to solve/share.

Regards, LV


> Key barriers identified, so far:
>
> 1) The need for a suitable glibc locale.  This is a small file used by
> GNU/Linux systems to teach the computer that the language exists anad
> how to handle certain basic things, like sorting order, date
> formatting etc accvording to suitable cultural conventions and
> relevant standards.  We have so far dealt with this issue by
> developing our own glibc locale files and either distributing them
> ourselves (OLPC Tonga being one such example)
>
> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Tonga
>
> or by upstreaming the locale ot the glibc project and waiting for it
> to trickle back downstream (Quechua, Aymara being prime examples).
>
> glibc locale development is sadly kind of complicated requiring
> bringing together expertise in relatively obscure standards (ISO-639,
> POSIX, etc., etc.), conversion of natural language to explicit Unicode
> point representation, linguistic expertise in the language in
> question, and perhaps most daunting, navigating the challenging
> upstream glibc community to actually land a patch.  I have been
> working with the glibc community for some time now and I have earned
> committer status to reduce that last hurdle, but it is still not
> inconsiderable.
>
> 2)  There are a few issues that should be relatively easy to work
> around.  Getting the POT files, adapting a suitable process for PO
> (and MO) file editing and placement, Modifying Sugar itself to
> understand tha the language exists (an issue possibly moderated by a
> change from having an ALL_LINGUAS line defined in configure.ac to
> leveraging another standard method consisting of including a LINGUAS
> file in the PO directory.
>
> 3) Local QA and upstreaming of the resulting translations.
>
> It is clearly an overall goal to provide a suitable toolchain and
> simple process to enable "bootstrapping', but it will take some effort
> to bring it all together.
>
> cjl
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>



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Re: [IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Bert Freudenberg]

> On 20.04.2016, at 18:06, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> 
> Hmm. I thought Scratch became libre when Apple released its parts under 
> Apache, which predated Sugar?

You’re confusing Scratch with Squeak. Scratch came with its own license that 
was not GPL compatible. They’ve since changed that:
http://wiki.scratch.mit.edu/wiki/Scratch_1.4_Source_Code 
 

> I understand that in 2016, Scratch has faded away, and Pharo has taken over 
> active development. I saw they rewrote all the Apache parts. 

Pharo has forked, yes, but Squeak is very much alive. Pharo is just better at 
marketing.

- Bert -





smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Chris Leonard]

I worked with Samson to refine a narrower proposal that has been
presented to the SLOB by email.  It is for the SLOB or Samson to
decide how / when to share it with the wider community.  It is for the
SLOB to determine the how / when of discussing the proposal.  I am
confident that all details will be public before any decision is
taken, I would characterize them as generally similar to previously
funded translation work, specific terms of which have been shared
previously.

cjl

cjl

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:30 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Its been 2 weeks since this thread was last updated; has anything else
> happened to move the proposal forward? Am I right that this will be decided
> on at the next SLOB meeting?
>
> Samson, some more questions below:
>
> On 6 April 2016 at 08:00, samson goddy  wrote:
>>
>>   Thanks for the question Dave, Let me explain why the Yoruba came with
>> the price $6,000. Originally, The Yoruba come with a price of 1500 USD.
>> About the Internet plan in Nigeria is quite expensive. Like i told Tony,
>> getting a portable internet connection plus the device cost about $300 a
>> month.
>
>
> Which provider/offer is this? :)
>
>>
>> I also explained that getting anything related to tech is also expensive
>> in Nigeria. For example getting an iphone6 plus might cost about $700-800 in
>> USA or amazon, with the current exchange rate of 200 Nigerian naira to 1
>> dollar doesn't make everything in Nigeria cheaper. To get that same phone in
>> Nigeria is about 250,000 naira here in Nigeria that about 1255.0225 US
>> Dollar, you see the difference. India or USA is not Nigeria these country
>> has a stable economy. You could do you research about Nigeria economy
>> currently and see for yourself.
>
>
> I understand - India is pretty similar to that :)
>
> Is the breakdown of the $6k something like this?
>
> $1,500 translation
> $  900 portable net @ $300/month x 3 months
> $3,600 laptops
>
> If there are other items, it seems the laptop is surely a larger item in the
> breakdown. So I wonder about the possibility of leasing/renting laptops. Eg
> I found http://xtramindsconcept.com.ng/laptops who advertise they leased a
> classroom of laptops to Google Nigeria. While that is in Lagos, I expect if
> you can visit a dozen computer repair shops, you could probably charm one of
> them to rent you some old stock for a good price.
>
> And there's also the 2nd hand market. Looking on olx.com I found a couple of
> nearly-new laptops for around USD$400 in Port Harcourt:
>
> https://www.olx.com.ng/ad/1-month-used-hp-pavilion-dv7-corei7-with-radeon-graphics-beat-audio-ID15HCC1.html
>
> https://www.olx.com.ng/ad/7months-old-hp-pavillion-for-sale-ID15I6yI.html
> (although you might also need that charm, "Carefully and softly used by a
> girl and so I wish a girl will also buy it" it says ;)
>
> I also find the $300/month mobile data cost high. How many Gb of data will
> you need?
>
> It seems that, new, its N15,000 ($USD75) for a hotspot wifi -
> http://www.gloworld.com/ng/personal/devices/portable-wifi-routers/ - and
> N5,000 (USD$25) for 5Gb of data -
> http://www.gloworld.com/ng/personal/data/data-plans/ - which can be doubled
> by working on a "campus" -
> http://www.gloworld.com/ng/personal/data/glo-campus-data-booster/ - and such
> hotspots can also be bought for around 1/3 of that price on olx.com
>
> Finally, how many translators would be involved for the $1,500, which is
> spent over 12 weeks? :)
>
>> "Can some of these XO laptops be recovered/recycled. The owners are now in
>> their late teens and probably wanting to use smartphones or standard
>> laptops. They may be willing to sell them for a relatively small amount
>> given that the local demand for XOs is probably negligible. These could be
>> refurbished and deployed either to support a local hackerspace or to supply
>> enough for one class at a local school."? yes they can. Those who don't want
>> to use the xo any more normally give them to their young ones to use.
>
>
> That's great! :)
>
>>
>> "Finally, I think it would be cool to think about this funding as
>> investment, rather than just straight funding. You are going go through the
>> effort of finding people to translate, teaching them about Sugar, getting
>> new hardware for Sugar related projects, etc etc! It is a lot :) So, if you
>> do all that, I recommend thinking about how to use that built up energy and
>> value in a way that can move towards self-funding this kind of effort. For
>> example, offering workshops business model, because the risks can be
>> minimized and it can have low overheads, and there are several markets for
>> them - eg, offering sugar workshops to wealthier communities of parents who
>> are passionate about these languages; or, partnering with existing IT
>> training businesses."? Yes that is want i have in mind to do.
>
>
> :D
>
>>
>>  Yes i would create Sugar Labs workshops, in Port Harcourt probably in
>> other parts of Nigeria too. T

Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Chris Leonard]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:30 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Its been 2 weeks since this thread was last updated; has anything else
> happened to move the proposal forward? Am I right that this will be decided
> on at the next SLOB meeting?
>
> Samson, some more questions below:
>
> On 6 April 2016 at 08:00, samson goddy  wrote:
>>
>>   Thanks for the question Dave, Let me explain why the Yoruba came with
>> the price $6,000. Originally, The Yoruba come with a price of 1500 USD.
>> About the Internet plan in Nigeria is quite expensive. Like i told Tony,
>> getting a portable internet connection plus the device cost about $300 a
>> month.
>
>
> Which provider/offer is this? :)

As a practical matter, full-time internet connectivity is not required
for effective L10n work.  The PO files can be downloaded from the
Pootle server (quickly), off-line work can be done in any of a variety
of offline PO file editing tools. I personally strongly favor the use
of Virtaal, by the makers of Pootle, as it contains all of the same
quality checks performed by Pootle.

http://virtaal.translatehouse.org/index.html

but even a simple text editor can serve in a pinch.  Upon request I
have and will provide PO files converted into CSV format for those who
like to work in spreadsheet packages.

There are two specific scenarios where on-line usage has specific
advantages over off-line, neither of which really apply in the case of
the major Nigerian languages being discussed by Samson.

1) Where there is a lot of upstream work in the language, in which
case the Pootle Translation Memory (TM) features can be both a
time-saver and a source of consistency in terminology use.

2) Languages typically not translated directly from English (e.g.
Central and South American indigenous languages, some African
languages in Francophone Africa, etc.).  In this case the completed
"dominant" (typically colonial) language can be accessed
simultaneously as a bridging language from the Pootle server.

https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Translation_Team/Pootle_Alternative_Language

https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Translation_Team/Pootle_Lengua_Alternativa

Even in this circumstance, a viable off-line option can be (and has
previously been) provided on request by processing the empty native
language PO file together with the completed bridging language PO file
such that the bridging language strings are embedded as translator
comments viewable in Virtaal (or text editor) interlaced with the
English original string and the slot for the new native language
string.  This can be done with a tool called instrans developed by our
friend Amos Batto from runasimipi.org or in a slightly different
fashion with the poswap tool.

http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/localization/2011-July/003058.html

Such PO pre-conversion services are provided upon request and offered
where appropriate as are the complementary re-conversion and upload
services.

cjl
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Dave Crossland]

Hi!

Its been 2 weeks since this thread was last updated; has anything else
happened to move the proposal forward? Am I right that this will be decided
on at the next SLOB meeting?

Samson, some more questions below:

On 6 April 2016 at 08:00, samson goddy  wrote:

>   Thanks for the question Dave, Let me explain why the Yoruba came with
> the price $6,000. Originally, The Yoruba come with a price of 1500 USD.
> About the Internet plan in Nigeria is quite expensive. Like i told Tony,
> getting a portable internet connection plus the device cost about $300 a
> month.
>

Which provider/offer is this? :)


> I also explained that getting anything related to tech is also expensive
> in Nigeria. For example getting an iphone6 plus might cost about $700-800
> in USA or amazon, with the current exchange rate of 200 Nigerian naira to 1
> dollar doesn't make everything in Nigeria cheaper. To get that same phone
> in Nigeria is about 250,000 naira here in Nigeria that about 1255.0225 US
> Dollar, you see the difference. India or USA is not Nigeria these country
> has a stable economy. You could do you research about Nigeria economy
> currently and see for yourself.
>

I understand - India is pretty similar to that :)

Is the breakdown of the $6k something like this?

$1,500 translation
$  900 portable net @ $300/month x 3 months
$3,600 laptops

If there are other items, it seems the laptop is surely a larger item in
the breakdown. So I wonder about the possibility of leasing/renting
laptops. Eg I found http://xtramindsconcept.com.ng/laptops who advertise
they leased a classroom of laptops to Google Nigeria. While that is in
Lagos, I expect if you can visit a dozen computer repair shops, you could
probably charm one of them to rent you some old stock for a good price.

And there's also the 2nd hand market. Looking on olx.com I found a couple
of nearly-new laptops for around USD$400 in Port Harcourt:

https://www.olx.com.ng/ad/1-month-used-hp-pavilion-dv7-corei7-with-radeon-graphics-beat-audio-ID15HCC1.html

https://www.olx.com.ng/ad/7months-old-hp-pavillion-for-sale-ID15I6yI.html
(although you might also need that charm, "Carefully and softly used by a
girl and so I wish a girl will also buy it" it says ;)

I also find the $300/month mobile data cost high. How many Gb of data will
you need?

It seems that, new, its N15,000 ($USD75) for a hotspot wifi -
http://www.gloworld.com/ng/personal/devices/portable-wifi-routers/ - and
N5,000 (USD$25) for 5Gb of data -
http://www.gloworld.com/ng/personal/data/data-plans/ - which can be doubled
by working on a "campus" -
http://www.gloworld.com/ng/personal/data/glo-campus-data-booster/ - and
such hotspots can also be bought for around 1/3 of that price on olx.com

Finally, how many translators would be involved for the $1,500, which is
spent over 12 weeks? :)

"Can some of these XO laptops be recovered/recycled. The owners are now in
> their late teens and probably wanting to use smartphones or standard
> laptops. They may be willing to sell them for a relatively small amount
> given that the local demand for XOs is probably negligible. These could be
> refurbished and deployed either to support a local hackerspace or to supply
> enough for one class at a local school."? yes they can. Those who don't
> want to use the xo any more normally give them to their young ones to use.
>

That's great! :)


> "Finally, I think it would be cool to think about this funding as
> investment, rather than just straight funding. You are going go through the
> effort of finding people to translate, teaching them about Sugar, getting
> new hardware for Sugar related projects, etc etc! It is a lot :) So, if you
> do all that, I recommend thinking about how to use that built up energy and
> value in a way that can move towards self-funding this kind of effort. For
> example, offering workshops business model, because the risks can be
> minimized and it can have low overheads, and there are several markets for
> them - eg, offering sugar workshops to wealthier communities of parents who
> are passionate about these languages; or, partnering with existing IT
> training businesses."? Yes that is want i have in mind to do.
>

:D


>  Yes i would create Sugar Labs workshops, in Port Harcourt probably in
> other parts of Nigeria too. These workshop will bring more users to the
> sugar community, uses the xo's, Sugar on stick, sugarizer. It will be a
> whole new word for Nigerians. I already find partners  for the workshop.
> And also i would really like if some one from Sugar Labs community will be
> present too e.g like walter for Musics Blocks and Turtle art JS. Also most
> of this questions you are answer is already been answered. I am spending a
> lot of $ in cyber cafe. So i can't really answer all your questions. like i
> said before SLOBs should invest in this proposal probably this April(i am
> not forcing the issue) so that things can be done quicker. and i can be
> able to start planing for works

Re: [IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 April 2016 at 10:09, Walter Bender  wrote:

> I thought we moved all of Sugar core to GPLv3-or-later. I will look for
> the thread.
>
>>
Please do :)
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Re: [IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 April 2016 at 10:49, Jonas Smedegaard  wrote:

> Quoting Dave Crossland (2016-04-20 15:47:33)
> >
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/FAQ#What_are_the_principles_that_guide_Sugar_Labs.3F
> > says
> >
> > What are the principles that guide Sugar Labs?
> >
> > Sugar Labs subscribes to principle that learning thrives within a
> > culture of freedom of expression, hence it has a natural affinity with
> > the free software movement (Please see Principles page in this wiki
> > https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs#Principles for more details).
> > The core Sugar platform has been developed under a GNU General Public
> > License (GPL); individual activities may be under different licenses.
> >
> >
> > That last sentence seems really weird to me, because as I understand
> > the GPL, and I Am Not A Lawyer, then if Sugar is GPL, all Activities
> > must be under GPL compatible libre software licenses.
>
> There is _granted_ license of sourcecode, and there is _effective_
> license of combined work.
>
> An activity with GPL-compatible liberal license (e.g. Expat a.k.a. MIT)
> is at runtime effectively GPL if linking with the GPL code.
>
> Note that e.g. communicating via DBus likely is not judged "linking".
>
> Liberal license is effective when code is a) reused in source form (e.g.
> forked for a BSD-based project), and b) if being granted an alternative
> license for the otherwise copyleft-licensed code.
>

I agree
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Re: [IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Dave Crossland]

On 20 April 2016 at 10:15, Chris Leonard  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> >
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/FAQ#What_are_the_principles_that_guide_Sugar_Labs.3F
> > says
> >
> > What are the principles that guide Sugar Labs?
> >
> > Sugar Labs subscribes to principle that learning thrives within a
> culture of
> > freedom of expression, hence it has a natural affinity with the free
> > software movement (Please see Principles page in this wiki
> > https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs#Principles for more details).
> The
> > core Sugar platform has been developed under a GNU General Public License
> > (GPL); individual activities may be under different licenses.
> >
> >
> > That last sentence seems really weird to me, because as I understand the
> > GPL, and I Am Not A Lawyer, then if Sugar is GPL, all Activities must be
> > under GPL compatible libre software licenses.
>
> Not necessarily.  An activity may be designed to run on in a Sugar
> user interface, but that does not make it a derivative work of Sugar
> itself (in which case it would inherit the license).


When you import a GPL licensed python module, your entire program is
required to comply with the GPL.


> Each Activity is an independent work and can be licensed as the author
> desires.


If everything it imports is LGPL, I agree.


> We strongly encourage suitable licensing and attempt to use what leverage
> we have (e.g. to host on ASLO or not) to nudge people in the path of
> righteousness.
>

Why not just have Sugar under GPL, then?


> There have been occasions in the past where issues with other's
> licensing terms arose (I'm vaguely recalling a kerfuffle about Scratch
> terms a few years back),


Hmm. I thought Scratch became libre when Apple released its parts under
Apache, which predated Sugar?


> community (and inter-community) discussion
> ensues, actions consistent with our principles are taken.  I think we
> dropped Scratch hosting.  We used to host their L10n as well, but they
> migrated to their own Pootle server.
>

I understand that in 2016, Scratch has faded away, and Pharo has taken over
active development. I saw they rewrote all the Apache parts.

-- 
Cheers
Dave
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Re: [IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Dave Crossland (2016-04-20 15:47:33)
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/FAQ#What_are_the_principles_that_guide_Sugar_Labs.3F
>  
> says
> 
> What are the principles that guide Sugar Labs?
> 
> Sugar Labs subscribes to principle that learning thrives within a 
> culture of freedom of expression, hence it has a natural affinity with 
> the free software movement (Please see Principles page in this wiki 
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs#Principles for more details). 
> The core Sugar platform has been developed under a GNU General Public 
> License (GPL); individual activities may be under different licenses.
> 
> 
> That last sentence seems really weird to me, because as I understand 
> the GPL, and I Am Not A Lawyer, then if Sugar is GPL, all Activities 
> must be under GPL compatible libre software licenses.

There is _granted_ license of sourcecode, and there is _effective_ 
license of combined work.

An activity with GPL-compatible liberal license (e.g. Expat a.k.a. MIT) 
is at runtime effectively GPL if linking with the GPL code.

Note that e.g. communicating via DBus likely is not judged "linking".

Liberal license is effective when code is a) reused in source form (e.g. 
forked for a BSD-based project), and b) if being granted an alternative 
license for the otherwise copyleft-licensed code.

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Re: [IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Chris Leonard]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/FAQ#What_are_the_principles_that_guide_Sugar_Labs.3F
> says
>
> What are the principles that guide Sugar Labs?
>
> Sugar Labs subscribes to principle that learning thrives within a culture of
> freedom of expression, hence it has a natural affinity with the free
> software movement (Please see Principles page in this wiki
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs#Principles for more details). The
> core Sugar platform has been developed under a GNU General Public License
> (GPL); individual activities may be under different licenses.
>
>
> That last sentence seems really weird to me, because as I understand the
> GPL, and I Am Not A Lawyer, then if Sugar is GPL, all Activities must be
> under GPL compatible libre software licenses.

Not necessarily.  An activity may be designed to run on in a Sugar
user interface, but that does not make it a derivative work of Sugar
itself (in which case it would inherit the license).  Each Activity is
an independent work and can be licensed as the author desires.  We
strongly encourage suitable licensing and attempt to use what leverage
we have (e.g. to host on ASLO or not) to nudge people in the path of
righteousness.

There have been occasions in the past where issues with other's
licensing terms arose (I'm vaguely recalling a kerfuffle about Scratch
terms a few years back), community (and inter-community) discussion
ensues, actions consistent with our principles are taken.  I think we
dropped Scratch hosting.  We used to host their L10n as well, but they
migrated to their own Pootle server.


cjl
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Re: [IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Walter Bender]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:

>
> Hi
>
>
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/FAQ#What_are_the_principles_that_guide_Sugar_Labs.3F
> says
>
> What are the principles that guide Sugar Labs?
>
> Sugar Labs subscribes to principle that learning thrives within a culture
> of freedom of expression, hence it has a natural affinity with the free
> software movement (Please see Principles page in this wiki
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs#Principles for more details).
> The core Sugar platform has been developed under a GNU General Public
> License (GPL); individual activities may be under different licenses.
>
>
> That last sentence seems really weird to me, because as I understand the
> GPL, and I Am Not A Lawyer, then if Sugar is GPL, all Activities must be
> under GPL compatible libre software licenses.
>
> Eg
> https://github.com/walterbender/turtleart/blob/master/TurtleArtActivity.py#L35
> is linking to sugar.activity, and so if
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3/blob/master/src/sugar3/activity/activity.py
> was GPL, it would form a combined/derivative work.
>
> but in fact, while most of Sugar is GPLv2-or-later -
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar/tree/master/docs has copies of GPLv2
> and LGPLv2.
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar/blob/master/COPYING is a copy of the
> GPLv2
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-datastore/blob/master/COPYING is a
> copy of the GPLv2 (oddly without the preamble)
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/browse-activity/blob/master/COPYING is a
> copy of the GPLv2
>
> These say GPLv2 or later in the top comment of the source code files, but
> the list of authors is not maintained:
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar/blob/master/src/jarabe/main.py#L5-L7
>
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-datastore/blob/master/src/carquinyol/datastore.py#L5-L7
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/browse-activity/blob/master/browser.py#L7-L8
>
>
> - I found that sugar-base and sugar-toolkit-gtk3 (and perhaps other 'core'
> parts) are LGPLv2.1-or-later:
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-base/blob/master/COPYING is a copy of
> the LGPLv2.1
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3/blob/master/COPYING
> is a copy of the LGPLv2.1
>
>
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-base/blob/master/src/sugar/__init__.py#L5-L7
> says LGPLv2.1-or-later
>
>
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3/blob/master/src/sugar3/env.py#L6-L7
>  says
> LGPLv2.1-or-later
>
>
> So, I am curious :)
>
> Are there any proprietary Sugar activities?
>

There seem to be some in UY. And perhaps they are in violation of our
license. But Sugar Labs does/will not distribute any proprietary
activities.

>
> Have any parts of Sugar become GPLv3-or-later?
>

I thought we moved all of Sugar core to GPLv3-or-later. I will look for the
thread.

>
> The activities on ASLO have a variety of licenses, and it seems somewhat
> unmanaged. At random I picked
> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4548 and it has a copy
> of the LGPLv3, but the code headers says GPLv2-or-later.
>
> Is it ASLO policy to only host works licensed under GPLv2-or-later
> compatible licenses, or is another criteria used?
>

We have guidelines [1], but enforcement is not automated so some things may
have slipped between the cracks.

-walter

[1] https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Licensing

> --
> Cheers
> Dave
>
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> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>



-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org

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[IAEP] 3 questions about Sugar Desktop Copyleft

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/FAQ#What_are_the_principles_that_guide_Sugar_Labs.3F
says

What are the principles that guide Sugar Labs?

Sugar Labs subscribes to principle that learning thrives within a culture
of freedom of expression, hence it has a natural affinity with the free
software movement (Please see Principles page in this wiki
https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs#Principles for more details). The
core Sugar platform has been developed under a GNU General Public License
(GPL); individual activities may be under different licenses.


That last sentence seems really weird to me, because as I understand the
GPL, and I Am Not A Lawyer, then if Sugar is GPL, all Activities must be
under GPL compatible libre software licenses.

Eg
https://github.com/walterbender/turtleart/blob/master/TurtleArtActivity.py#L35
is linking to sugar.activity, and so if
https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3/blob/master/src/sugar3/activity/activity.py
was GPL, it would form a combined/derivative work.

but in fact, while most of Sugar is GPLv2-or-later -

https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar/tree/master/docs has copies of GPLv2 and
LGPLv2.

https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar/blob/master/COPYING is a copy of the
GPLv2

https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-datastore/blob/master/COPYING is a copy
of the GPLv2 (oddly without the preamble)

https://github.com/sugarlabs/browse-activity/blob/master/COPYING is a copy
of the GPLv2

These say GPLv2 or later in the top comment of the source code files, but
the list of authors is not maintained:

https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar/blob/master/src/jarabe/main.py#L5-L7

https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-datastore/blob/master/src/carquinyol/datastore.py#L5-L7

https://github.com/sugarlabs/browse-activity/blob/master/browser.py#L7-L8


- I found that sugar-base and sugar-toolkit-gtk3 (and perhaps other 'core'
parts) are LGPLv2.1-or-later:

https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-base/blob/master/COPYING is a copy of
the LGPLv2.1

https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3/blob/master/COPYING
is a copy of the LGPLv2.1


https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-base/blob/master/src/sugar/__init__.py#L5-L7
says LGPLv2.1-or-later

https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3/blob/master/src/sugar3/env.py#L6-L7
says
LGPLv2.1-or-later


So, I am curious :)

Are there any proprietary Sugar activities?

Have any parts of Sugar become GPLv3-or-later?

The activities on ASLO have a variety of licenses, and it seems somewhat
unmanaged. At random I picked
http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4548 and it has a copy of
the LGPLv3, but the code headers says GPLv2-or-later.

Is it ASLO policy to only host works licensed under GPLv2-or-later
compatible licenses, or is another criteria used?

-- 
Cheers
Dave
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Chris Leonard]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> (removed every cc but ieap)
>
> On 20 April 2016 at 02:15, Chris Leonard  wrote:
>>
>> As a practical matter, full-time internet connectivity is not required
>> for effective L10n work.
>
>
> I agree, and I think that generally more can be done to make "Sugar On A
> Stick" into "Sugar Local Lab On A Stick" so that sugar communities without
> active/direct internet connections can do more to self-support themselves,
> and eventually upload what they have back to the central repos.
>
> I've thus added a note about this to the vision proposal:
>
> We develop our software to run on every computer device, from desktops and
> laptops to tablets and smartphones, and to run in situations with local
> networks without direct internet connections.
>
>
> - https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Vision_proposal_2016

Indeed, Tony and I have been looking into determining and breaking
down the barriers to what I refer to as L10n "bootstrapping".
Enabling the local translation (in the classroom) to the local
language and further empowering the upstreaming of such translations
to our server for sharing worldwide.

Key barriers identified, so far:

1) The need for a suitable glibc locale.  This is a small file used by
GNU/Linux systems to teach the computer that the language exists anad
how to handle certain basic things, like sorting order, date
formatting etc accvording to suitable cultural conventions and
relevant standards.  We have so far dealt with this issue by
developing our own glibc locale files and either distributing them
ourselves (OLPC Tonga being one such example)

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Tonga

or by upstreaming the locale ot the glibc project and waiting for it
to trickle back downstream (Quechua, Aymara being prime examples).

glibc locale development is sadly kind of complicated requiring
bringing together expertise in relatively obscure standards (ISO-639,
POSIX, etc., etc.), conversion of natural language to explicit Unicode
point representation, linguistic expertise in the language in
question, and perhaps most daunting, navigating the challenging
upstream glibc community to actually land a patch.  I have been
working with the glibc community for some time now and I have earned
committer status to reduce that last hurdle, but it is still not
inconsiderable.

2)  There are a few issues that should be relatively easy to work
around.  Getting the POT files, adapting a suitable process for PO
(and MO) file editing and placement, Modifying Sugar itself to
understand tha the language exists (an issue possibly moderated by a
change from having an ALL_LINGUAS line defined in configure.ac to
leveraging another standard method consisting of including a LINGUAS
file in the PO directory.

3) Local QA and upstreaming of the resulting translations.

It is clearly an overall goal to provide a suitable toolchain and
simple process to enable "bootstrapping', but it will take some effort
to bring it all together.

cjl
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Dave Crossland]

(removed every cc but ieap)

On 20 April 2016 at 02:15, Chris Leonard  wrote:

> As a practical matter, full-time internet connectivity is not required
> for effective L10n work.
>

I agree, and I think that generally more can be done to make "Sugar On A
Stick" into "Sugar Local Lab On A Stick" so that sugar communities without
active/direct internet connections can do more to self-support themselves,
and eventually upload what they have back to the central repos.

I've thus added a note about this to the vision proposal:

We develop our software to run on every computer device, from desktops and
laptops to tablets and smartphones, and to run in situations with local
networks without direct internet connections.


- https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Vision_proposal_2016
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On 20 April 2016 at 08:59, Chris Leonard  wrote:

>  Were it my proposal, I would be more than happy to do so, but it is
> not.  I think it is a matter for the proposer and the SLOB to make
> that publication determination.
>

Sure :)


> I will be creating suitable structure
> on the wiki for templates and yes, proposals in development, but we
> are still feeling our way towards what is a suitable general template.
>

Totally - I understand that we, the sugar labs community, are in a period
of rebirth :)


> I am sorry that you feel annoyed, that is not the intent.  I will try
> to get the template up on the wiki as soon as possible to give you
> something to chew on.
>

All good! I feel very satisfied by your reply, and that sounds wonderful,
thanks!! :D

-- 
Cheers
Dave
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Chris Leonard]

 Were it my proposal, I would be more than happy to do so, but it is
not.  I think it is a matter for the proposer and the SLOB to make
that publication determination.  I will be creating suitable structure
on the wiki for templates and yes, proposals in development, but we
are still feeling our way towards what is a suitable general template.

I am sorry that you feel annoyed, that is not the intent.  I will try
to get the template up on the wiki as soon as possible to give you
something to chew on.

cjl

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:21 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
> (removed all direct emails, only using iaep list)
>
> Hi Chris
>
> On 20 April 2016 at 01:39, Chris Leonard  wrote:
>>
>> I worked with Samson to refine a narrower proposal that has been
>> presented to the SLOB by email.  It is for the SLOB or Samson to
>> decide how / when to share it with the wider community. It is for the
>>
>> SLOB to determine the how / when of discussing the proposal.  I am
>> confident that all details will be public before any decision is
>> taken, I would characterize them as generally similar to previously
>> funded translation work, specific terms of which have been shared
>> previously.
>
>
> Thanks for the update, and the reassurances that the final proposal will be
> made public before voting.
>
> Partly, I feel glad that this has moved forwards :)
>
> But I also feel annoyed. I need connection, and transparency. I would like
> to participate.
>
> So I request that the proposal - and all proposals to SLOB - move to the
> wiki, and the discussions move the IEAP list.
>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave
>
> ___
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[Dave Crossland]

(removed all direct emails, only using iaep list)

Hi Chris

On 20 April 2016 at 01:39, Chris Leonard  wrote:

> I worked with Samson to refine a narrower proposal that has been
> presented to the SLOB by email.  It is for the SLOB or Samson to
> decide how / when to share it with the wider community. It is for the
>
SLOB to determine the how / when of discussing the proposal.  I am
> confident that all details will be public before any decision is
> taken, I would characterize them as generally similar to previously
> funded translation work, specific terms of which have been shared
> previously.
>

Thanks for the update, and the reassurances that the final proposal will be
made public before voting.

Partly, I feel glad that this has moved forwards :)

But I also feel annoyed. I need connection, and transparency. I would like
to participate.

So I request that the proposal - and all proposals to SLOB - move to the
wiki, and the discussions move the IEAP list.

-- 
Cheers
Dave
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Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs

[samson goddy]

> From: cjlhomeaddr...@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 02:24:21 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] Samson's proposal to SLOBs
> To: d...@lab6.com
> CC: samsongo...@hotmail.com; s...@unleashkids.org; 
> sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org; samsongo...@gmail.com; 
> sl...@lists.sugarlabs.org; la...@somosazucar.org; cbige...@hotmail.com; 
> nices...@gmail.com; t...@sugarlabs.org; iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org; 
> t...@timmoody.com
> 
> To many cc:s is getting this moderated.  Trying again.
> 
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Chris Leonard  
> wrote:
> > I worked with Samson to refine a narrower proposal that has been
> > presented to the SLOB by email.  It is for the SLOB or Samson to
> > decide how / when to share it with the wider community.  It is for the
> > SLOB to determine the how / when of discussing the proposal.  I am
> > confident that all details will be public before any decision is
> > taken, I would characterize them as generally similar to previously
> > funded translation work, specific terms of which have been shared
> > previously.
> >
> > cjl
> >
> > cjl
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:30 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> Its been 2 weeks since this thread was last updated; has anything else
> >> happened to move the proposal forward? Am I right that this will be decided
> >> on at the next SLOB meeting?
> >>
> >> Samson, some more questions below:
> >>
> >> On 6 April 2016 at 08:00, samson goddy  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>   Thanks for the question Dave, Let me explain why the Yoruba came with
> >>> the price $6,000. Originally, The Yoruba come with a price of 1500 USD.
> >>> About the Internet plan in Nigeria is quite expensive. Like i told Tony,
> >>> getting a portable internet connection plus the device cost about $300 a
> >>> month.
> >>
> >>
> >> Which provider/offer is this? :)
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I also explained that getting anything related to tech is also expensive
> >>> in Nigeria. For example getting an iphone6 plus might cost about $700-800 
> >>> in
> >>> USA or amazon, with the current exchange rate of 200 Nigerian naira to 1
> >>> dollar doesn't make everything in Nigeria cheaper. To get that same phone 
> >>> in
> >>> Nigeria is about 250,000 naira here in Nigeria that about 1255.0225 US
> >>> Dollar, you see the difference. India or USA is not Nigeria these country
> >>> has a stable economy. You could do you research about Nigeria economy
> >>> currently and see for yourself.
> >>
> >>
> >> I understand - India is pretty similar to that :)
> >>
> >> Is the breakdown of the $6k something like this?
> >>
> >> $1,500 translation
> >> $  900 portable net @ $300/month x 3 months
> >> $3,600 laptops
> >>
> >> If there are other items, it seems the laptop is surely a larger item in 
> >> the
> >> breakdown. So I wonder about the possibility of leasing/renting laptops. Eg
> >> I found http://xtramindsconcept.com.ng/laptops who advertise they leased a
> >> classroom of laptops to Google Nigeria. While that is in Lagos, I expect if
> >> you can visit a dozen computer repair shops, you could probably charm one 
> >> of
> >> them to rent you some old stock for a good price.
> >>
> >> And there's also the 2nd hand market. Looking on olx.com I found a couple 
> >> of
> >> nearly-new laptops for around USD$400 in Port Harcourt:
> >>
> >> https://www.olx.com.ng/ad/1-month-used-hp-pavilion-dv7-corei7-with-radeon-graphics-beat-audio-ID15HCC1.html
> >>
> >> https://www.olx.com.ng/ad/7months-old-hp-pavillion-for-sale-ID15I6yI.html
> >> (although you might also need that charm, "Carefully and softly used by a
> >> girl and so I wish a girl will also buy it" it says ;)
(That market "OLX" is not advisable, it a fraud place. They usually ask for 40% 
before they give you any goods. I was a victim before(9,000 Nigeria naira)  
$45. There places where i can get used laptops.)
> >>
> >> I also find the $300/month mobile data cost high. How many Gb of data will
> >> you need?
> >>
> >> It seems that, new, its N15,000 ($USD75) for a hotspot wifi -
> >> http://www.gloworld.com/ng/personal/devices/portable-wifi-routers/ - and
> >> N5,000 (USD$25) for 5Gb of data -
> >> http://www.gloworld.com/ng/personal/data/data-plans/ - which can be doubled
> >> by working on a "campus" -
> >> http://www.gloworld.com/ng/personal/data/glo-campus-data-booster/ - and 
> >> such
(As you can see it a campus data, i can't go to any university to browse.)
Glo is not a good choice for internet service in Nigeria. But "Etisalat" is. I 
intend to use smile https://smile.com.ng/product/unlimited-smifi/ because it 
faster and it has coverage more than the glo service. Glo only workshop 
effective in Lagos and not all places in Port Harcourt.
 
> >> hotspots can also be bought for around 1/3 of that price on olx.com
Fraud site!!!
> >>
> >> Finally, how many translators would be involved for the $1,500, which is
> >> spent over 12 weeks? :)
3 including me
> >>
> >>> "Can some of these XO laptops be recovered/recycled. The ow