Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?

[Walter Bender]

iation of the expanding horizons
>>>> available to computing - speech recognition, computer vision, massive
>>>> data bases, machine learning, inexpensive sensors, robots, symbolic
>>>> mathematics, ...). The critical attitude is to focus on 'what did you
>>>> make?' and 'how did you make it?' and to avoid the temptation to do it
>>>> for the user because you can do it better and more efficiently.
>>>>
>>>> In a classroom, knowledge is available to translate program text in
>>>> English into the native language of the learner. This is an opportunity
>>>> for a learner to improve English vocabulary by deciding on the
>>>> appropriate equivalence in the native language of English words and
>>>> phrases in the program. This is a clear opportunity for contructionist
>>>> learning.  However, this task is done very accurately and efficiently
>>>> by
>>>> a team of experts without learner participation.
>>>>
>>>
>> Another dormant project. I recall the kids in the very first school in
>> Abuja writing their own spelling dictionary in Igbo. These are the real
>> Sugar opportunities.
>>
>>>
>>>> Tony
>>>>
>>>> On 3/29/19 10:43 AM, iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
>>>> > Send IAEP mailing list submissions to
>>>> >   iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> >
>>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>> >   http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> >   iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> >
>>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> >   iaep-ow...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> >
>>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> > than "Re: Contents of IAEP digest..."
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Today's Topics:
>>>> >
>>>> > 1. What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit Srivastava)
>>>> > 2. Re: What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Alex Perez)
>>>> > 3. Re: What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit
>>>> Srivastava)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> >
>>>> > Message: 1
>>>> > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 05:30:55 +0530
>>>> > From: Sumit Srivastava 
>>>> > To: IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>>> > Cc: Sugar-dev Devel 
>>>> > Subject: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?
>>>> > Message-ID:
>>>> >   <
>>>> caezcgjxvdmdpujblaskugnrw5hxyeeck5nd48zda+jrfwq8...@mail.gmail.com>
>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> >
>>>> > Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest
>>>> to?
>>>> > Who do we aim to be?
>>>> >
>>>> > I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share
>>>> relevant
>>>> > mail archive links if they're available.
>>>> >
>>>> > I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I
>>>> mentioned
>>>> > might not be a close match.
>>>> >
>>>> > Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we
>>>> want?
>>>> >
>>>> > Regards
>>>> > Sumit Srivastava
>>>> > -- next part --
>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> > URL: <
>>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/attachments/20190329/0f9cae35/attachment-0001.html
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> >
>>>> > Message: 2
>>>> > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 18:19:32 -0700
>>>> > From: Alex Perez 
>>>> > To: IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org, Sugar-dev Devel
>>>> >   
>>>> > Subject: Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?
>>>> > Message-ID: <63ae1aa0-7d88-2c1a-0d34-96c9f9e9d...@alexperez.com>
>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>>> >

Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?

[Sumit Srivastava]

inate the need for traditional literacy? What form will
>>> resulting document take: pdf? mp4?
>>>
>>
>  Writing is more about editing than transcription (whether through voice
> or a keyboard).
>
>>
>>> Another interesting project is the 'Exerciser'. The Exerciser does
>>> provide for users to prepare meaningful activities but is likely to be
>>> primarily used for evaluation (tests and quizzes). The question for
>>> constructionism is the role of such 'evaluation' in education. Is it
>>> more appropriate to evaluate a learner's accomplishments by the results
>>> of his or her activities (portfolio) or by asking questions based on a
>>> fixed curriculum (quiz).
>>>
>>
> Lip-service to the worst aspects of education.
>
>>
>>> One of the original goals of this project - 'one laptop per child' is
>>> being lost essentially without a fight. Today, the 'computer lab' reigns
>>> supreme. The typical XO in Rwanda is shared among 5 or more learners.
>>> Learners are not permitted to take the laptops out of the classroom and,
>>> typically, have access to a laptop for only one hour per week. It is
>>> difficult to imagine effective learning by construction in such limited
>>> time. Even on the Curriculum subject of computing, the typical learner
>>> spends 80% of classroom time without a laptop (traditional textbook and
>>> lecture method).
>>>
>>
> Not sure what Sugar Labs can do about that except to try to subvert it by
> ensuring that the tools that the children use in the classroom lead then to
> discover a bit about the tools themselves along the way.
>
>
>>
>>> Can we assume that in the future every child on the planet will have a
>>> capable personal computer? Can we assume that the interenet at 1MBs
>>> speed will be available and affordable to every child on the planet at
>>> home and at school 24/7? The current trend is the opposite - computers
>>> and reliable high-speed internet are available only to the privileged on
>>> the right side of the growing digital divide.
>>>
>>> Above all, we need to renew spirit of the 'Give 1 Get 1' time, with
>>> contributors submitting Sugar activities and sponsors obtaining laptops
>>> to supply a school in the developing world, where the internet and
>>> computing have not yet taken root. This spirit has to be based on an
>>> expansion of the user-base on contemporary computers (e.g. Sugarizer,
>>> SOAS, 'sucre'). It also needs an appreciation of the expanding horizons
>>> available to computing - speech recognition, computer vision, massive
>>> data bases, machine learning, inexpensive sensors, robots, symbolic
>>> mathematics, ...). The critical attitude is to focus on 'what did you
>>> make?' and 'how did you make it?' and to avoid the temptation to do it
>>> for the user because you can do it better and more efficiently.
>>>
>>> In a classroom, knowledge is available to translate program text in
>>> English into the native language of the learner. This is an opportunity
>>> for a learner to improve English vocabulary by deciding on the
>>> appropriate equivalence in the native language of English words and
>>> phrases in the program. This is a clear opportunity for contructionist
>>> learning.  However, this task is done very accurately and efficiently by
>>> a team of experts without learner participation.
>>>
>>
> Another dormant project. I recall the kids in the very first school in
> Abuja writing their own spelling dictionary in Igbo. These are the real
> Sugar opportunities.
>
>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>> On 3/29/19 10:43 AM, iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
>>> > Send IAEP mailing list submissions to
>>> >   iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> >
>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> >   http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> >   iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> >
>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> >   iaep-ow...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> >
>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> > than "Re: Contents of IAEP digest..."
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Today's Topics:
>>> >
>>> > 1. What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit Srivastava

Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?

[Walter Bender]

gt; fixed curriculum (quiz).
>>
>
Lip-service to the worst aspects of education.

>
>> One of the original goals of this project - 'one laptop per child' is
>> being lost essentially without a fight. Today, the 'computer lab' reigns
>> supreme. The typical XO in Rwanda is shared among 5 or more learners.
>> Learners are not permitted to take the laptops out of the classroom and,
>> typically, have access to a laptop for only one hour per week. It is
>> difficult to imagine effective learning by construction in such limited
>> time. Even on the Curriculum subject of computing, the typical learner
>> spends 80% of classroom time without a laptop (traditional textbook and
>> lecture method).
>>
>
Not sure what Sugar Labs can do about that except to try to subvert it by
ensuring that the tools that the children use in the classroom lead then to
discover a bit about the tools themselves along the way.


>
>> Can we assume that in the future every child on the planet will have a
>> capable personal computer? Can we assume that the interenet at 1MBs
>> speed will be available and affordable to every child on the planet at
>> home and at school 24/7? The current trend is the opposite - computers
>> and reliable high-speed internet are available only to the privileged on
>> the right side of the growing digital divide.
>>
>> Above all, we need to renew spirit of the 'Give 1 Get 1' time, with
>> contributors submitting Sugar activities and sponsors obtaining laptops
>> to supply a school in the developing world, where the internet and
>> computing have not yet taken root. This spirit has to be based on an
>> expansion of the user-base on contemporary computers (e.g. Sugarizer,
>> SOAS, 'sucre'). It also needs an appreciation of the expanding horizons
>> available to computing - speech recognition, computer vision, massive
>> data bases, machine learning, inexpensive sensors, robots, symbolic
>> mathematics, ...). The critical attitude is to focus on 'what did you
>> make?' and 'how did you make it?' and to avoid the temptation to do it
>> for the user because you can do it better and more efficiently.
>>
>> In a classroom, knowledge is available to translate program text in
>> English into the native language of the learner. This is an opportunity
>> for a learner to improve English vocabulary by deciding on the
>> appropriate equivalence in the native language of English words and
>> phrases in the program. This is a clear opportunity for contructionist
>> learning.  However, this task is done very accurately and efficiently by
>> a team of experts without learner participation.
>>
>
Another dormant project. I recall the kids in the very first school in
Abuja writing their own spelling dictionary in Igbo. These are the real
Sugar opportunities.

>
>> Tony
>>
>> On 3/29/19 10:43 AM, iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
>> > Send IAEP mailing list submissions to
>> >   iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >   http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >   iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >   iaep-ow...@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of IAEP digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit Srivastava)
>> > 2. Re: What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Alex Perez)
>> > 3. Re: What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit Srivastava)
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 05:30:55 +0530
>> > From: Sumit Srivastava 
>> > To: IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> > Cc: Sugar-dev Devel 
>> > Subject: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?
>> > Message-ID:
>> >   <
>> caezcgjxvdmdpujblaskugnrw5hxyeeck5nd48zda+jrfwq8...@mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest
>> to?
>> > Who do we aim to be?
>> >
>> > I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share
>> relevant
>> > mail archive links if they're available.
&g

Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?

[Sumit Srivastava]

ll, we need to renew spirit of the 'Give 1 Get 1' time, with
> contributors submitting Sugar activities and sponsors obtaining laptops
> to supply a school in the developing world, where the internet and
> computing have not yet taken root. This spirit has to be based on an
> expansion of the user-base on contemporary computers (e.g. Sugarizer,
> SOAS, 'sucre'). It also needs an appreciation of the expanding horizons
> available to computing - speech recognition, computer vision, massive
> data bases, machine learning, inexpensive sensors, robots, symbolic
> mathematics, ...). The critical attitude is to focus on 'what did you
> make?' and 'how did you make it?' and to avoid the temptation to do it
> for the user because you can do it better and more efficiently.
>
> In a classroom, knowledge is available to translate program text in
> English into the native language of the learner. This is an opportunity
> for a learner to improve English vocabulary by deciding on the
> appropriate equivalence in the native language of English words and
> phrases in the program. This is a clear opportunity for contructionist
> learning.  However, this task is done very accurately and efficiently by
> a team of experts without learner participation.
>
> Tony
>
> On 3/29/19 10:43 AM, iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
> > Send IAEP mailing list submissions to
> >   iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >   http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >   iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >   iaep-ow...@lists.sugarlabs.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of IAEP digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit Srivastava)
> >     2. Re: What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Alex Perez)
> > 3. Re: What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit Srivastava)
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 05:30:55 +0530
> > From: Sumit Srivastava 
> > To: IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > Cc: Sugar-dev Devel 
> > Subject: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?
> > Message-ID:
> >   <
> caezcgjxvdmdpujblaskugnrw5hxyeeck5nd48zda+jrfwq8...@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest to?
> > Who do we aim to be?
> >
> > I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share
> relevant
> > mail archive links if they're available.
> >
> > I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I
> mentioned
> > might not be a close match.
> >
> > Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we want?
> >
> > Regards
> > Sumit Srivastava
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/attachments/20190329/0f9cae35/attachment-0001.html
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 18:19:32 -0700
> > From: Alex Perez 
> > To: IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org, Sugar-dev Devel
> >   
> > Subject: Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?
> > Message-ID: <63ae1aa0-7d88-2c1a-0d34-96c9f9e9d...@alexperez.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
> >
> > Sumit,
> >
> > Great questions, and they're particularly relevant at this phase/age of
> > the existence of Sugar Labs. They certainly can't be answered in a
> > single e-mail, however I think this is a perfect conversation to have,
> > particularly on our IAEP mailing list, which is our general purpose
> > mailing list.
> >
> > Sumit Srivastava wrote on 3/28/19 5:00 PM:
> >> Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest
> >> to? Who do we aim to be?
> > Speaking as an Oversight Board member, I do not believe it is in the
> > interest of Sugar Labs to attempt to emulate a company like Red Hat and
> > Canonical. These companies have hundreds/thousands of paid employees,
> > and their organizational structure is a product of the needs of their
> > corp

Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?

[Sumit Srivastava]

Great points, Alex.

I would love to hear from all of you, especially the senior members of the
SL community, before we discuss all the points one by one.

Regards
Sumit

On Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 6:49 am Alex Perez,  wrote:

> Sumit,
>
> Great questions, and they're particularly relevant at this phase/age of
> the existence of Sugar Labs. They certainly can't be answered in a single
> e-mail, however I think this is a perfect conversation to have,
> particularly on our IAEP mailing list, which is our general purpose mailing
> list.
>
> Sumit Srivastava wrote on 3/28/19 5:00 PM:
>
> Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest to?
> Who do we aim to be?
>
>
> Speaking as an Oversight Board member, I do not believe it is in the
> interest of Sugar Labs to attempt to emulate a company like Red Hat and
> Canonical. These companies have hundreds/thousands of paid employees, and
> their organizational structure is a product of the needs of their corporate
> customers.
>
> Right now, we have a few existential problems on the horizon, one of which
> is a long term problem, but which we now need to address in the short-term:
> Maintainability. Sugar has a lot of "technical debt", and unless we can
> complete our goal of 100% Python 3 compatibility of all core Sugar
> libraries and the toolkit, we risk the loss of being able to be run as a
> desktop environment on current versions of Linux, due to our reliance on
> Python 2. Since Python 2 has been on life support for many, many years, and
> is only nine months from being officially retired, it will no longer be
> maintained by the Python Foundation, nor included by default in the next
> versions of Fedora and Ubuntu. You can read further details about the
> sunsetting of Python 2 at https://pythonclock.org
>
> 
>
>
> I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share
> relevant mail archive links if they're available.
>
> I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I
> mentioned might not be a close match.
>
> I personally do not think the core entity of Sugar Labs should be a
> commercial entity, but non-profit organizations are completely entitled to
> be profitable, and many are quite  for the profitable. Personally, I would
> like to see the development of a federated model, where we have
> country/regionally-centered "chapters" of Sugar Labs, with Sugar Labs
> itself taking the in-the-field feedback from our distributed user base, and
> incorporating and triaging suggestions/feedback,
>
>
> Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we want?
>
> I would love to see a world where Sugar was used extensively, worldwide,
> by children in the primary school age range, with a wide range of
> actively-maintained activities, relevant to the current curricula of a
> variety of countries, and of interest to elementary school teachers, across
> all socioeconomic groups. How we get there is the real question, assuming
> we want to, and have the organizational will to do so.
>
> As for what our "long term vision" is, I honestly don't think we have one
> at this point, and we should fix that, which is one of the reasons why I
> chose to run for the Sugar Labs Oversight Board. Our next meeting is next
> Friday, on 2019-04-05 at 20:00 UTC, on IRC, in the #sugar-meeting channel
> on FreeNode. Feel free to join us and observe, as well as ask questions
> before and after the official meeting commences.
>
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Oversight_Board
>
>
> Regards
> Sumit Srivastava
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop 
> project!)IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.orghttp://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?

[Alex Perez]

Sumit,

Great questions, and they're particularly relevant at this phase/age of 
the existence of Sugar Labs. They certainly can't be answered in a 
single e-mail, however I think this is a perfect conversation to have, 
particularly on our IAEP mailing list, which is our general purpose 
mailing list.


Sumit Srivastava wrote on 3/28/19 5:00 PM:
Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest 
to? Who do we aim to be?


Speaking as an Oversight Board member, I do not believe it is in the 
interest of Sugar Labs to attempt to emulate a company like Red Hat and 
Canonical. These companies have hundreds/thousands of paid employees, 
and their organizational structure is a product of the needs of their 
corporate customers.


Right now, we have a few existential problems on the horizon, one of 
which is a long term problem, but which we now need to address in the 
short-term: Maintainability. Sugar has a lot of "technical debt", and 
unless we can complete our goal of 100% Python 3 compatibility of all 
core Sugar libraries and the toolkit, we risk the loss of being able to 
be run as a desktop environment on current versions of Linux, due to our 
reliance on Python 2. Since Python 2 has been on life support for many, 
many years, and is only nine months from being officially retired, it 
will no longer be maintained by the Python Foundation, nor included by 
default in the next versions of Fedora and Ubuntu. You can read further 
details about the sunsetting of Python 2 at https://pythonclock.org 






I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share 
relevant mail archive links if they're available.


I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I 
mentioned might not be a close match.
I personally do not think the core entity of Sugar Labs should be a 
commercial entity, but non-profit organizations are completely entitled 
to be profitable, and many are quite  for the profitable. Personally, I 
would like to see the development of a federated model, where we have 
country/regionally-centered "chapters" of Sugar Labs, with Sugar Labs 
itself taking the in-the-field feedback from our distributed user base, 
and incorporating and triaging suggestions/feedback,


Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we want?
I would love to see a world where Sugar was used extensively, worldwide, 
by children in the primary school age range, with a wide range of 
actively-maintained activities, relevant to the current curricula of a 
variety of countries, and of interest to elementary school teachers, 
across all socioeconomic groups. How we get there is the real question, 
assuming we want to, and have the organizational will to do so.


As for what our "long term vision" is, I honestly don't think we have 
one at this point, and we should fix that, which is one of the reasons 
why I chose to run for the Sugar Labs Oversight Board. Our next meeting 
is next Friday, on 2019-04-05 at 20:00 UTC, on IRC, in the 
#sugar-meeting channel on FreeNode. Feel free to join us and observe, as 
well as ask questions before and after the official meeting commences.


https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Oversight_Board


Regards
Sumit Srivastava
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep


___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

[IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs?

[Sumit Srivastava]

Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest to?
Who do we aim to be?

I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share relevant
mail archive links if they're available.

I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I mentioned
might not be a close match.

Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we want?

Regards
Sumit Srivastava
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep