Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:56 PM, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote: Walter Bender wrote: The eventual transition to GNOME 3.0 and PYGI will make a big difference in our ability to support more interoperability as well. - This is a very good news, Thanks, Walter! --- Walter Bender wrote: In any case, concrete feedback and criticism is welcome. - Concrete Feedback: The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: is there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?, or much better, that the programs won't write empty entries? Quip: Thank goodness the only problem we have is Journal spam. Seriously, this has been an issue we have gone back and forth about for quite some time and I am afraid that our attempts to find a one-size-fits-all solution have not been successful. In the early days of Sugar, the default behavior upon launching an activity from the Home View was to launch a new instance, which ended up with a Journal entry associated with that activity. This was seemingly fine for Write, but pretty annoying for Terminal or Tetris. We turned it around about two-years ago such that the default behavior is now launch the most recent instance by default. This has in my experience almost entirely eliminated Journal spam, but we have had complaints that it is too difficult to launch a new instance (you need to use the hover menu and scroll past the list of most recent actions). I had proposed (but never wrote the patch) to make new instance be at the top of the list rather than the bottom, which I think help quite a bit. Still, the debate continues. We have discussed adding to the activity.info file an indication as to whether or not an activity should launch a new instance by default, but this idea has generally been disparaged as being too confusing: different launch behaviors for different activities. [I am curious which launch behavior you are working with, as I don't understand how launch-most-recent by default would result in Journal spam.] In a separate thread, Ana just proposed a few other ideas, which I will discuss as part of that thread: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2011-June/013521.html thanks. -walter Empty entry = when a kid opens Browse, and he closes 10 seconds later, it is useless that entry. If the kid uses Write for more than 15 minutes, probably he wrote something useful. For example , If the kid opens Write but he don't write anything, that entry would not be save on the journal. ANother example: Programs that are not well sugarized, they save lots and lots of useless entries on the journal. The problem is not the space, those entries don't occupy nothing. The problem is the amount of entries. TOO MUCH INFORMATION = NO INFORMATION Paolo Benini Montevideo ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 8:37 AM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:56 PM, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote: Walter Bender wrote: The eventual transition to GNOME 3.0 and PYGI will make a big difference in our ability to support more interoperability as well. - This is a very good news, Thanks, Walter! --- Walter Bender wrote: In any case, concrete feedback and criticism is welcome. - Concrete Feedback: The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: is there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?, or much better, that the programs won't write empty entries? Quip: Thank goodness the only problem we have is Journal spam. Seriously, this has been an issue we have gone back and forth about for quite some time and I am afraid that our attempts to find a one-size-fits-all solution have not been successful. In the early days of Sugar, the default behavior upon launching an activity from the Home View was to launch a new instance, which ended up with a Journal entry associated with that activity. This was seemingly fine for Write, but pretty annoying for Terminal or Tetris. We turned it around about two-years ago such that the default behavior is now launch the most recent instance by default. This has in my experience almost entirely eliminated Journal spam, but we have had complaints that it is too difficult to launch a new instance (you need to use the hover menu and scroll past the list of most recent actions). I had proposed (but never wrote the patch) to make new instance be at the top of the list rather than the bottom, which I think help quite a bit. Still, the debate continues. We have discussed adding to the activity.info file an indication as to whether or not an activity should launch a new instance by default, but this idea has generally been disparaged as being too confusing: different launch behaviors for different activities. [I am curious which launch behavior you are working with, as I don't understand how launch-most-recent by default would result in Journal spam.] In a separate thread, Ana just proposed a few other ideas, which I will discuss as part of that thread: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2011-June/013521.html thanks. -walter If it seems I deliberately by-passed your suggestion below, that was not my intention. I do think it would be good to allow an activity to abort its Journal entry in some way, but I think that the bulk of the Journal spam problem is associated with launching issue. regards. -walter Empty entry = when a kid opens Browse, and he closes 10 seconds later, it is useless that entry. If the kid uses Write for more than 15 minutes, probably he wrote something useful. For example , If the kid opens Write but he don't write anything, that entry would not be save on the journal. ANother example: Programs that are not well sugarized, they save lots and lots of useless entries on the journal. The problem is not the space, those entries don't occupy nothing. The problem is the amount of entries. TOO MUCH INFORMATION = NO INFORMATION Paolo Benini Montevideo ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:56 PM, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote:
*{...}
*
** *Concrete Feedback:*
The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: *is
there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?,*
From the Journal item's detail view there is an 'Erase' (minus sign) button
in the toolbar. Clicking this button will clean out that Journal entry.
{...}
Paolo Benini
Montevideo
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Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Frederick Grose fgr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:56 PM, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote:
{...}
Concrete Feedback:
The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: is
there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?,
From the Journal item's detail view there is an 'Erase' (minus sign) button
in the toolbar. Clicking this button will clean out that Journal entry.
I took Paolo's request to mean something slightly different: is there
a way to do a bulk cleaning of the Journal, perhaps automated?
tch is close to having finished a multi-selection enhancement for the
Journal that makes bulk delete much much easier. But it may be worth
exploring some function to remove empty journal entries
automatically.
I am still a bit puzzled by the Journal spam issue, however, since I
don't see much if any spam since moving to the
open-most-recent-by-default home view. I'd love of an explanation as
to where the spam is coming from.
regards.
-walter
{...}
Paolo Benini
Montevideo
___
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IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
--
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
___
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IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
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Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
On 16.06.2011, at 12:52, Walter Bender wrote:
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Frederick Grose fgr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:56 PM, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote:
{...}
Concrete Feedback:
The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: is
there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?,
From the Journal item's detail view there is an 'Erase' (minus sign) button
in the toolbar. Clicking this button will clean out that Journal entry.
I took Paolo's request to mean something slightly different: is there
a way to do a bulk cleaning of the Journal, perhaps automated?
tch is close to having finished a multi-selection enhancement for the
Journal that makes bulk delete much much easier. But it may be worth
exploring some function to remove empty journal entries
automatically.
I am still a bit puzzled by the Journal spam issue, however, since I
don't see much if any spam since moving to the
open-most-recent-by-default home view. I'd love of an explanation as
to where the spam is coming from.
regards.
-walter
We learned in UY that many kids are still using older Sugar. And they don't
want to upgrade because e.g. Wine does not work anymore on newer builds, or MP3
playing etc.
- Bert -
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Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
Am 16.06.2011 21:52, schrieb Walter Bender:
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Frederick Grose fgr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:56 PM, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote:
{...}
Concrete Feedback:
The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: is
there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?,
From the Journal item's detail view there is an 'Erase' (minus sign) button
in the toolbar. Clicking this button will clean out that Journal entry.
I took Paolo's request to mean something slightly different: is there
a way to do a bulk cleaning of the Journal, perhaps automated?
That's also how I understood it (especially based on his prior comment
on another thread).
tch is close to having finished a multi-selection enhancement for the
Journal that makes bulk delete much much easier. But it may be worth
exploring some function to remove empty journal entries
automatically.
Or general a sort of select all. Because if I understand tch's current
design correctly then it requires the user to click and select each
Journal entry, right? Something like Shift + Select like on traditional
systems might be a good addition here.
I am still a bit puzzled by the Journal spam issue, however, since I
don't see much if any spam since moving to the
open-most-recent-by-default home view. I'd love of an explanation as
to where the spam is coming from.
When was the open-most-recent change implemented? After Sugar 0.82,
right? Since Plan Ceibal is only in the progress of upgrading machines
from 0.82 to 0.88 this could explain why Paolo is still seeing these
issues on an ongoing basis.
Cheers,
Christoph
regards.
-walter
{...}
Paolo Benini
Montevideo
___
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IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
--
Christoph Derndorfer
co-editor, www.olpcnews.com
e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com
___
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Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Christoph Derndorfer
e0425...@student.tuwien.ac.at wrote:
Am 16.06.2011 21:52, schrieb Walter Bender:
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Frederick Grose fgr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:56 PM, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote:
{...}
Concrete Feedback:
The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: is
there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?,
From the Journal item's detail view there is an 'Erase' (minus sign) button
in the toolbar. Clicking this button will clean out that Journal entry.
I took Paolo's request to mean something slightly different: is there
a way to do a bulk cleaning of the Journal, perhaps automated?
That's also how I understood it (especially based on his prior comment
on another thread).
tch is close to having finished a multi-selection enhancement for the
Journal that makes bulk delete much much easier. But it may be worth
exploring some function to remove empty journal entries
automatically.
Or general a sort of select all. Because if I understand tch's current
design correctly then it requires the user to click and select each
Journal entry, right? Something like Shift + Select like on traditional
systems might be a good addition here.
In his implementation, you can select all that match a query. No need
to click each entry individually.
I am still a bit puzzled by the Journal spam issue, however, since I
don't see much if any spam since moving to the
open-most-recent-by-default home view. I'd love of an explanation as
to where the spam is coming from.
When was the open-most-recent change implemented? After Sugar 0.82,
right? Since Plan Ceibal is only in the progress of upgrading machines
from 0.82 to 0.88 this could explain why Paolo is still seeing these
issues on an ongoing basis.
From what Bert suggests, maybe we should be working on getting WINE to
work in the newer Sugar builds rather than worrying about these
Journal details. :P
-walter
Cheers,
Christoph
regards.
-walter
{...}
Paolo Benini
Montevideo
___
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IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
--
Christoph Derndorfer
co-editor, www.olpcnews.com
e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com
--
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
Am 16.06.2011 22:22, schrieb Walter Bender:
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Christoph Derndorfer
e0425...@student.tuwien.ac.at wrote:
Am 16.06.2011 21:52, schrieb Walter Bender:
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Frederick Grose fgr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:56 PM, nanon...@mediagala.com wrote:
{...}
Concrete Feedback:
The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: is
there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?,
From the Journal item's detail view there is an 'Erase' (minus sign) button
in the toolbar. Clicking this button will clean out that Journal entry.
I took Paolo's request to mean something slightly different: is there
a way to do a bulk cleaning of the Journal, perhaps automated?
That's also how I understood it (especially based on his prior comment
on another thread).
tch is close to having finished a multi-selection enhancement for the
Journal that makes bulk delete much much easier. But it may be worth
exploring some function to remove empty journal entries
automatically.
Or general a sort of select all. Because if I understand tch's current
design correctly then it requires the user to click and select each
Journal entry, right? Something like Shift + Select like on traditional
systems might be a good addition here.
In his implementation, you can select all that match a query. No need
to click each entry individually.
Oh, right, I had forgotten that.
Yet I still think there is a use-case for something between one and
all selection. It's definitely not as high-priority but something
worth thinking about IMHO.
I am still a bit puzzled by the Journal spam issue, however, since I
don't see much if any spam since moving to the
open-most-recent-by-default home view. I'd love of an explanation as
to where the spam is coming from.
When was the open-most-recent change implemented? After Sugar 0.82,
right? Since Plan Ceibal is only in the progress of upgrading machines
from 0.82 to 0.88 this could explain why Paolo is still seeing these
issues on an ongoing basis.
From what Bert suggests, maybe we should be working on getting WINE to
work in the newer Sugar builds rather than worrying about these
Journal details. :P
Oh my God, I see too many potential OLPC News headlines in front of me
right now... ;-D
Christoph
-walter
Cheers,
Christoph
regards.
-walter
{...}
Paolo Benini
Montevideo
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
--
Christoph Derndorfer
co-editor, www.olpcnews.com
e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com
--
Christoph Derndorfer
co-editor, www.olpcnews.com
e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
/Christoph Derndorfer wrote: since Plan Ceibal is only in the progress of upgrading machines from 0.82 to 0.88 this could explain why Paolo is still seeing these issues on an ongoing basis. -/ Yes, we have in Uruguay some XO with Sugar 0.88 and some others with Sugar 0.82, the older one that not has the launch-most-recent by default. I think that in PEru is the same, they all have the old Sugar. Paolo ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
Am 16.06.2011 22:37, schrieb nanon...@mediagala.com: /Christoph Derndorfer wrote: since Plan Ceibal is only in the progress of upgrading machines from 0.82 to 0.88 this could explain why Paolo is still seeing these issues on an ongoing basis. -/ Yes, we have in Uruguay some XO with Sugar 0.88 and some others with Sugar 0.82, the older one that not has the launch-most-recent by default. I think that in PEru is the same, they all have the old Sugar. Last July all XOs I saw in Peru were still running the very oudated 65x builds. But the latest image which they seem to be upgrading to these days is based on OLPC's 10.1.3 release (according to Hernan Pachas) and uses Sugar 0.84 (it's available here if you're interested: ftp://ftp.perueduca.edu.pe/XO_OLPC/primaria/). Cheers, Christoph -- Christoph Derndorfer co-editor, www.olpcnews.com e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] Concrete feedback
/Walter Bender wrote: The eventual transition to GNOME 3.0 and PYGI will make a big difference in our ability to support more interoperability as well. -/ This is a very good news, Thanks, Walter! --- / Walter Bender wrote: In any case, /concrete feedback/ and criticism is welcome. -/ *Concrete Feedback:* The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: *is there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?,* or much better, that the programs won't write empty entries? Empty entry = when a kid opens Browse, and he closes 10 seconds later, it is useless that entry. If the kid uses Write for more than 15 minutes, probably he wrote something useful. For example , If the kid opens Write but he don't write anything, that entry would not be save on the journal. ANother example: Programs that are not well sugarized, they save lots and lots of useless entries on the journal. The problem is not the space, those entries don't occupy nothing. The problem is the amount of entries. _ TOO MUCH INFORMATION = NO INFORMATION_ Paolo Benini Montevideo ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
You are showing one of the more commons problems when we talk about the Journal. Many times, bugs in activities are perceived like bugs in the Journal. If one activity is not well sugarized, is a problem in the activity and must solved. And from a long time, the default way wen you open one activity, is open the last instance. This is not the right solution, because is not useful for all the activities, but solve the issue with Browse, Terminal, etc. About massive operations, you can see the work from tch about multiple selection operations. Gonzalo *Concrete Feedback:* The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: *is there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?,* or much better, that the programs won't write empty entries? Empty entry = when a kid opens Browse, and he closes 10 seconds later, it is useless that entry. If the kid uses Write for more than 15 minutes, probably he wrote something useful. For example , If the kid opens Write but he don't write anything, that entry would not be save on the journal. ANother example: Programs that are not well sugarized, they save lots and lots of useless entries on the journal. The problem is not the space, those entries don't occupy nothing. The problem is the amount of entries. * TOO MUCH INFORMATION = NO INFORMATION* Paolo Benini Montevideo ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
I'm glad to see all the entries which tells me what they clicked on and if they didn't create anything then I'm curious to know why. maybe for long term use there could be a way to sort entries based on size of the entries or something like that which would put the files with no content near the bottom. i like having an option to log everything or filter the list. You are showing one of the more commons problems when we talk about the Journal. Many times, bugs in activities are perceived like bugs in the Journal. If one activity is not well sugarized, is a problem in the activity and must solved. And from a long time, the default way wen you open one activity, is open the last instance. This is not the right solution, because is not useful for all the activities, but solve the issue with Browse, Terminal, etc. About massive operations, you can see the work from tch about multiple selection operations. Gonzalo *Concrete Feedback:* The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: *is there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?,* or much better, that the programs won't write empty entries? Empty entry = when a kid opens Browse, and he closes 10 seconds later, it is useless that entry. If the kid uses Write for more than 15 minutes, probably he wrote something useful. For example , If the kid opens Write but he don't write anything, that entry would not be save on the journal. ANother example: Programs that are not well sugarized, they save lots and lots of useless entries on the journal. The problem is not the space, those entries don't occupy nothing. The problem is the amount of entries. * TOO MUCH INFORMATION = NO INFORMATION* Paolo Benini Montevideo ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- http://64.27.24.247:8000/xowiki/en:weblog?summary=1 ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Concrete feedback
There are a option to sort by size, by creation date and by modification date. Gonzalo On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 5:04 PM, Kenneth Wyrick k...@caltek.net wrote: I'm glad to see all the entries which tells me what they clicked on and if they didn't create anything then I'm curious to know why. maybe for long term use there could be a way to sort entries based on size of the entries or something like that which would put the files with no content near the bottom. i like having an option to log everything or filter the list. You are showing one of the more commons problems when we talk about the Journal. Many times, bugs in activities are perceived like bugs in the Journal. If one activity is not well sugarized, is a problem in the activity and must solved. And from a long time, the default way wen you open one activity, is open the last instance. This is not the right solution, because is not useful for all the activities, but solve the issue with Browse, Terminal, etc. About massive operations, you can see the work from tch about multiple selection operations. Gonzalo *Concrete Feedback:* The journal is always full of garbage, hundreds of empty entries: *is there a possibility to CLEAN the JOurnal?,* or much better, that the programs won't write empty entries? Empty entry = when a kid opens Browse, and he closes 10 seconds later, it is useless that entry. If the kid uses Write for more than 15 minutes, probably he wrote something useful. For example , If the kid opens Write but he don't write anything, that entry would not be save on the journal. ANother example: Programs that are not well sugarized, they save lots and lots of useless entries on the journal. The problem is not the space, those entries don't occupy nothing. The problem is the amount of entries. * TOO MUCH INFORMATION = NO INFORMATION* Paolo Benini Montevideo ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- http://64.27.24.247:8000/xowiki/en:weblog?summary=1 ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
