Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 04:57, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: First of all, IMO the *only* stable Sugar OS is OLPC XO Software 8.2.0 running on XO or emulator. As far as I know, none of the other distributions has caught up in terms of activity support. FWIW, I am keeping an eye on this, hoping that a second Sugar platform emerges. The questions in the back of my mind are: - What are you guys running / developing on? I'm using sugar-jhbuild in Ubuntu Intrepid. - What are you guys testing? Very little :/ - Are any SL'ers dogfooding 100% of their computer time? (as now Sugar is closer to Just Working on conventional laptops) On what platform? Not yet, and seems that it won't happen soon, given that all available resources are going to stuff that is needed by young children and that might not improve general usability/efficiency. Hope it will change, not sure when. Wearing my XSA hat, I want to get my hands on that second Sugar platform and test interop with the XS. Wearing my wellington volunteer tester hat, I want to know if there's a non OLPCXO OS we should be targetting. I would say to test whatever is going to be deployed. And we know that Sugar won't be deployed only on XOs because most Sugar deployments won't be able to get those machines. At a first, seems like SoaS is the Sugar distro that is better positioned to get deployed in the near future. HTH, Tomeu ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
Hi Mike, Is it ok if I blog about this on schoolkey.net? Do you have a blog post about it I can link to? I can easily embed your slideshow from Flickr and it gives cusiouslee credit automatically. Thanks! Caroline On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Mike Lee curious...@gmail.com wrote: By the way, I just got SoaS running on an Intel Classmate 3. It was easy to do. But as others have said, there's more work to do to beef up the activities. I'm excited! I will be presenting this at next Saturday's OLPC Learning Club DC meeting at Gallaudet University. Photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/curiouslee/sets/72157613785006745/ Mike On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:06:44PM -0800, Edward Cherlin wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: ok? I guess this will be contreversial but it must be said and acted upon (much more importantly) Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? I have similar problems, and I don't even know where to submit bugs. If you are an end user, then file a bugreport against the buggy software package to the bug tracking system of your distribution. If you use a mixture from multiple sources, then you really are using your own unique distribution, and cannot expext any of your sources to want to deal with your problem: Your best bet is then to test yourself if same bug occur in a clean install from a single of your sources. If you use SoaS, then your distribution is whoever put together that SoaS. It is *not* the distribution that was used as basis for the SoaS. You might have luck anyway, filing bugreports against e.g. Debian if using an SoaS based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian. But be careful to mention clearly that you are using a messy setup, and don't be surprised if your bugreport is not taken seriously. We need some kind of organization now that we are in a matrix situation. We have a multitude of .xo packages, and at least the following platforms: o XO o Fedora o Debian o Ubuntu o Caixa Magica Linux (Venezuela) o Mobilis with Linux on XSCALE processor (Brazil) In addition to regular packages for installation, we want a LiveCD and SOAS for each one. That means that we need an automated build and QA infrastructure for all of these cases, and a reporting database. We are past the point where all-manual testing makes any sense. I recommend Sugarlabs to *not* try to act as sub-distributor for anything containing Sugar. 1) You are _upstream_ of Sugar. 2) You might(!) want to be distributor too, for a _specific_ SoaS. But really, I recommend to separate SoaS distribution and keep Sugarlabs aas only an upstream for Sugar. What I mean is, play with SoaS, Ubuntu, Fedora, whatever, but make it very clear to non-Sugar-developers that you cannot support the crap you've thrown together - that it should not be considered a distribution but is solely meant as an internal testing mechanisms, and if it happens to work ok for others then that is pure luck. ...if anyone then wants to stand up and maintain support for a distribution, then great. Just don't mix upstream and distribution - they are very different tasks. - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmV4rIACgkQn7DbMsAkQLgumgCeIZCZpnx8mR9+xMhhmX+Y+OCs haEAoKYOXV0JwCLBg+wvOtIY3b5uMS+1 =a1Zw -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 18:53, Mike Lee curious...@gmail.com wrote: By the way, I just got SoaS running on an Intel Classmate 3. It was easy to do. But as others have said, there's more work to do to beef up the activities. I'm excited! I will be presenting this at next Saturday's OLPC Learning Club DC meeting at Gallaudet University. Congrats! I think we need some help with building soas images. Perhaps will attend that meeting someone with knowledge of rpm packaging that may want to help? Regards, Tomeu Photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/curiouslee/sets/72157613785006745/ Mike On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:06:44PM -0800, Edward Cherlin wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: ok? I guess this will be contreversial but it must be said and acted upon (much more importantly) Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? I have similar problems, and I don't even know where to submit bugs. If you are an end user, then file a bugreport against the buggy software package to the bug tracking system of your distribution. If you use a mixture from multiple sources, then you really are using your own unique distribution, and cannot expext any of your sources to want to deal with your problem: Your best bet is then to test yourself if same bug occur in a clean install from a single of your sources. If you use SoaS, then your distribution is whoever put together that SoaS. It is *not* the distribution that was used as basis for the SoaS. You might have luck anyway, filing bugreports against e.g. Debian if using an SoaS based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian. But be careful to mention clearly that you are using a messy setup, and don't be surprised if your bugreport is not taken seriously. We need some kind of organization now that we are in a matrix situation. We have a multitude of .xo packages, and at least the following platforms: o XO o Fedora o Debian o Ubuntu o Caixa Magica Linux (Venezuela) o Mobilis with Linux on XSCALE processor (Brazil) In addition to regular packages for installation, we want a LiveCD and SOAS for each one. That means that we need an automated build and QA infrastructure for all of these cases, and a reporting database. We are past the point where all-manual testing makes any sense. I recommend Sugarlabs to *not* try to act as sub-distributor for anything containing Sugar. 1) You are _upstream_ of Sugar. 2) You might(!) want to be distributor too, for a _specific_ SoaS. But really, I recommend to separate SoaS distribution and keep Sugarlabs aas only an upstream for Sugar. What I mean is, play with SoaS, Ubuntu, Fedora, whatever, but make it very clear to non-Sugar-developers that you cannot support the crap you've thrown together - that it should not be considered a distribution but is solely meant as an internal testing mechanisms, and if it happens to work ok for others then that is pure luck. ...if anyone then wants to stand up and maintain support for a distribution, then great. Just don't mix upstream and distribution - they are very different tasks. - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmV4rIACgkQn7DbMsAkQLgumgCeIZCZpnx8mR9+xMhhmX+Y+OCs haEAoKYOXV0JwCLBg+wvOtIY3b5uMS+1 =a1Zw -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
By the way, I just got SoaS running on an Intel Classmate 3. It was easy to do. But as others have said, there's more work to do to beef up the activities. I'm excited! I will be presenting this at next Saturday's OLPC Learning Club DC meeting at Gallaudet University. Photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/curiouslee/sets/72157613785006745/ Mike On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:06:44PM -0800, Edward Cherlin wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: ok? I guess this will be contreversial but it must be said and acted upon (much more importantly) Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? I have similar problems, and I don't even know where to submit bugs. If you are an end user, then file a bugreport against the buggy software package to the bug tracking system of your distribution. If you use a mixture from multiple sources, then you really are using your own unique distribution, and cannot expext any of your sources to want to deal with your problem: Your best bet is then to test yourself if same bug occur in a clean install from a single of your sources. If you use SoaS, then your distribution is whoever put together that SoaS. It is *not* the distribution that was used as basis for the SoaS. You might have luck anyway, filing bugreports against e.g. Debian if using an SoaS based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian. But be careful to mention clearly that you are using a messy setup, and don't be surprised if your bugreport is not taken seriously. We need some kind of organization now that we are in a matrix situation. We have a multitude of .xo packages, and at least the following platforms: o XO o Fedora o Debian o Ubuntu o Caixa Magica Linux (Venezuela) o Mobilis with Linux on XSCALE processor (Brazil) In addition to regular packages for installation, we want a LiveCD and SOAS for each one. That means that we need an automated build and QA infrastructure for all of these cases, and a reporting database. We are past the point where all-manual testing makes any sense. I recommend Sugarlabs to *not* try to act as sub-distributor for anything containing Sugar. 1) You are _upstream_ of Sugar. 2) You might(!) want to be distributor too, for a _specific_ SoaS. But really, I recommend to separate SoaS distribution and keep Sugarlabs aas only an upstream for Sugar. What I mean is, play with SoaS, Ubuntu, Fedora, whatever, but make it very clear to non-Sugar-developers that you cannot support the crap you've thrown together - that it should not be considered a distribution but is solely meant as an internal testing mechanisms, and if it happens to work ok for others then that is pure luck. ...if anyone then wants to stand up and maintain support for a distribution, then great. Just don't mix upstream and distribution - they are very different tasks. - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmV4rIACgkQn7DbMsAkQLgumgCeIZCZpnx8mR9+xMhhmX+Y+OCs haEAoKYOXV0JwCLBg+wvOtIY3b5uMS+1 =a1Zw -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: ok? I guess this will be contreversial but it must be said and acted upon (much more importantly) Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? I have similar problems, and I don't even know where to submit bugs. We need some kind of organization now that we are in a matrix situation. We have a multitude of .xo packages, and at least the following platforms: o XO o Fedora o Debian o Ubuntu o Caixa Magica Linux (Venezuela) o Mobilis with Linux on XSCALE processor (Brazil) In addition to regular packages for installation, we want a LiveCD and SOAS for each one. That means that we need an automated build and QA infrastructure for all of these cases, and a reporting database. We are past the point where all-manual testing makes any sense. ubuntu - no read no write no jiggzawpuzzle etoys scratch epathi measure anything tam tam based until very recently even browse pdf reader of any kind measure distance slider video chat abc flower (thing doesnt even exist) ok, that is about 50% of the failed testtube babies... what is the solution: we test the damn tings before release we do what greg dekoenigsberg quite elegantly suggested. a 3 tier solution: +1, but we need even more than this. 1. make an educator mailinglist we get every educator we know on the list. We start off the discussion with what is really needed... the simple stuff... the stuff u guru coders can whip up in days: Examples: 1. typing tutor... all it should do is allow kids to follow whatever the teacher is directing. speed of typing is recorded? accuracy; graph based report; printable to parents... stars given to best pupils... guys these are real world scenarios... not invented by devs.. asked for by teachers qnd not surprisingly thinking why it does not yet exist. 2 same for maths... times tables/division/addition/substraction groupings of kids, reports, printibale to both parents ant teachers... 2. (gdk) guys this is what teachers want... I reallly hate to say this; but the stuff right now on sugar apart from speak, which when working every teacher loves, is an absolute waste of educators time... yes the activities can be properly used... but basics first! mailing list to get the, involved; we mention the activities that we (welll actually they) have come up with, we discuss very briefly; 3: (gdk)then make a moodle/wiki page where educators and devs get together to create the tools that we actually need (the ones that will really chqnge the world) I hope no one takes this is as a critcism of the effort put into creating activities till now; but people... lets frocus... lets sugar mean something for teachers David (nubae) Van Assche ___ Sugar-devel mailing list sugar-de...@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai (Ed Cherlin) ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
It is absolutely vital that SoaS boot/install work in a reliable way. Any nongeek user who can't use it will not bother reporting precise bug information, and moreover will lose motivation to try it again. In the case of branded USB sticks boot/install failures will make Sugar Labs appear as a cruddy product. Branded sticks will need to work every time. OK that said I ask you to bear with me since I don't know enough about the (surely formidable) technical hurdles in succeeding boot/install. Can anyone brief me on the importance/difficulty of the following factors? Perhaps there is a page which enumerates these factors? * User difficulty configuring BIOS boot from USB * Underlying distribution * Recognizing hardware * Dependencies * Network (LAN, Internet) connectivity: configuration, absence thereof * USB key locked in read-only mode * Missing or buggy activities Please forgive my ignorance but does SoaS generate a log at boot/install? Are there error codes specific to Sugar? I would imagine that's distribution-dependent... The user feedback rate could be improved if we communicate a super-simple procedure on boot/install failure, e.g. an e-mail address to send a boot/install log file to. As well (perhaps this happens already?), on successful boot/install and with Internet connnectivity, ideally the stick should phone home with the boot log which would indicate successful SoaS/hardware combinations and provide some statistics on how many sticks make it to screens. Of course, per privacy concerns there should be no user-identifiable information, or rather any such info should be immediately anonymized. Is there a way to trap errors in each activity, in case of error can the boot/install log be appended to, can a user feedback agent return the updated log to us if the Net is available? One more (maybe silly) question, is there a fundamental difference between Sugar on a CD and Sugar on a Stick? If this has been dealt with, any pointers to resources would be appreciated. thank you Sean On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:34 AM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: well this entire conversation was really brought about because I couldnt practice speech with my 2 nephews... Im sorry if I crossed the line a bit, but I think what I said needed to be said... SoaS is indeed the best plqtform right now and the kids not only loved it (one 9 the other 3) they needed no explanation for the interface... to them it was as natural as eating a piece of bread. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? Aleksey Lim recently took over this orphaned package. Can you get in touch with him (alsroot on IRC) and help work it out? I have yet to even try SoaS but information on what activities do and don't work should be posted to http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/ActivityStatus so we can triage them. We are watching that page. Thus far most of our work has been migrating activities over to SL.org but hopefully we can start actually getting them to work on SoaS soon. On a sidenote: some of the most exciting work for me last summer was Hemant's text-to-speech work, which would have real impact if its integration into Sugar were completed. How close is that to being possible? http://dev.laptop.org/~wadeb/TypingTurtle-9.xo is the latest release but I can't guarantee it works on anything but XO. [Getting pretty hot...] SJ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
hey there sean essentially there is no difference between SoaS and cd the problem comes from the distro specific intricacies, which can be many more than devs care to admit... I agree.. this is not a usable product unless it alll works... saying oh welll speak doesnt work because of x or y, is no excuse. bios has nothing to do with this, this is purely distro related... for example... on fedora we have 80% workage, on ubuntu 40 maybe 50% workage... but for those of us in the field selling this tech, this is not accpetable... I say it again I know its an open source project but it doesnt help funding if we cant even get the damn thing to run a cd, btw, is worse than a stick at this point. at least for ubuntu goood luck and lets work this shit out so we finally have a solution that works in schoosl On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Sean DALY sdaly...@gmail.com wrote: It is absolutely vital that SoaS boot/install work in a reliable way. Any nongeek user who can't use it will not bother reporting precise bug information, and moreover will lose motivation to try it again. In the case of branded USB sticks boot/install failures will make Sugar Labs appear as a cruddy product. Branded sticks will need to work every time. OK that said I ask you to bear with me since I don't know enough about the (surely formidable) technical hurdles in succeeding boot/install. Can anyone brief me on the importance/difficulty of the following factors? Perhaps there is a page which enumerates these factors? * User difficulty configuring BIOS boot from USB * Underlying distribution * Recognizing hardware * Dependencies * Network (LAN, Internet) connectivity: configuration, absence thereof * USB key locked in read-only mode * Missing or buggy activities Please forgive my ignorance but does SoaS generate a log at boot/install? Are there error codes specific to Sugar? I would imagine that's distribution-dependent... The user feedback rate could be improved if we communicate a super-simple procedure on boot/install failure, e.g. an e-mail address to send a boot/install log file to. As well (perhaps this happens already?), on successful boot/install and with Internet connnectivity, ideally the stick should phone home with the boot log which would indicate successful SoaS/hardware combinations and provide some statistics on how many sticks make it to screens. Of course, per privacy concerns there should be no user-identifiable information, or rather any such info should be immediately anonymized. Is there a way to trap errors in each activity, in case of error can the boot/install log be appended to, can a user feedback agent return the updated log to us if the Net is available? One more (maybe silly) question, is there a fundamental difference between Sugar on a CD and Sugar on a Stick? If this has been dealt with, any pointers to resources would be appreciated. thank you Sean On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:34 AM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: well this entire conversation was really brought about because I couldnt practice speech with my 2 nephews... Im sorry if I crossed the line a bit, but I think what I said needed to be said... SoaS is indeed the best plqtform right now and the kids not only loved it (one 9 the other 3) they needed no explanation for the interface... to them it was as natural as eating a piece of bread. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? Aleksey Lim recently took over this orphaned package. Can you get in touch with him (alsroot on IRC) and help work it out? I have yet to even try SoaS but information on what activities do and don't work should be posted to http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/ActivityStatus so we can triage them. We are watching that page. Thus far most of our work has been migrating activities over to SL.org but hopefully we can start actually getting them to work on SoaS soon. On a sidenote: some of the most exciting work for me last summer was Hemant's text-to-speech work, which would have real impact if its integration into Sugar were completed. How close is that to being possible? http://dev.laptop.org/~wadeb/TypingTurtle-9.xo is the latest release but I can't guarantee it works on anything but XO. [Getting pretty hot...] SJ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 04:14, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: ok? I guess this will be contreversial but it must be said and acted upon (much more importantly) Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? ubuntu - no read That was a problem for all distros as OLPC shipped a forked evince. It will be fixed for jaunty. no write We're working on that one - libabiword. Will also be fixed for jaunty. no jiggzawpuzzle It fails because it depends on abiword. Will be fixed for jaunty. etoys This is packaged, but I think we're still missing a bit - the actual sugar activity for etoys. I don't personally have the time to work on it because I'm working on the above (and the actual glucose packages). scratch Not packaged for Ubuntu. License changed to non-free recently? epathi I don't think anyone's looked at getting this working on Ubuntu. measure anything tam tam based until very recently even browse Fixed - although may be broken again by today's Firefox updates - I'll get it updated ASAP. pdf reader of any kind measure distance slider video chat abc flower (thing doesnt even exist) Not packaged. We really need more people to step up and work on testing these activities as .xo on Ubuntu (and other distros) and help with packaging them if they don't work like that. When I got involved with Ubuntu packaging, I was asked by my manager at OLPC (my employer at the time) to NOT work on Sugar on Ubuntu. I did what I could in my personal time, but we had missed the Ubuntu feature freeze and nearly had to ship 0.79 or nothing at all. I'm more able to work on it now, and jaunty should work much better. It might be easier to get involved in smaller distros, but for Ubuntu we're still working without having any upload rights, and depending on getting the MOTU team to sponsor our uploads, until we can demonstrate sufficient experience. Not easy when time is tight. Regards Morgan ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
Hi, I see frustration but I'm having trouble knowing who should have done something and failed to do it. Can we get a list of issues, each of them with a list of people that may be able to do something about them? Thanks, Tomeu On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:16, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: hey there sean essentially there is no difference between SoaS and cd the problem comes from the distro specific intricacies, which can be many more than devs care to admit... I agree.. this is not a usable product unless it alll works... saying oh welll speak doesnt work because of x or y, is no excuse. bios has nothing to do with this, this is purely distro related... for example... on fedora we have 80% workage, on ubuntu 40 maybe 50% workage... but for those of us in the field selling this tech, this is not accpetable... I say it again I know its an open source project but it doesnt help funding if we cant even get the damn thing to run a cd, btw, is worse than a stick at this point. at least for ubuntu goood luck and lets work this shit out so we finally have a solution that works in schoosl On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Sean DALY sdaly...@gmail.com wrote: It is absolutely vital that SoaS boot/install work in a reliable way. Any nongeek user who can't use it will not bother reporting precise bug information, and moreover will lose motivation to try it again. In the case of branded USB sticks boot/install failures will make Sugar Labs appear as a cruddy product. Branded sticks will need to work every time. OK that said I ask you to bear with me since I don't know enough about the (surely formidable) technical hurdles in succeeding boot/install. Can anyone brief me on the importance/difficulty of the following factors? Perhaps there is a page which enumerates these factors? * User difficulty configuring BIOS boot from USB * Underlying distribution * Recognizing hardware * Dependencies * Network (LAN, Internet) connectivity: configuration, absence thereof * USB key locked in read-only mode * Missing or buggy activities Please forgive my ignorance but does SoaS generate a log at boot/install? Are there error codes specific to Sugar? I would imagine that's distribution-dependent... The user feedback rate could be improved if we communicate a super-simple procedure on boot/install failure, e.g. an e-mail address to send a boot/install log file to. As well (perhaps this happens already?), on successful boot/install and with Internet connnectivity, ideally the stick should phone home with the boot log which would indicate successful SoaS/hardware combinations and provide some statistics on how many sticks make it to screens. Of course, per privacy concerns there should be no user-identifiable information, or rather any such info should be immediately anonymized. Is there a way to trap errors in each activity, in case of error can the boot/install log be appended to, can a user feedback agent return the updated log to us if the Net is available? One more (maybe silly) question, is there a fundamental difference between Sugar on a CD and Sugar on a Stick? If this has been dealt with, any pointers to resources would be appreciated. thank you Sean On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:34 AM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: well this entire conversation was really brought about because I couldnt practice speech with my 2 nephews... Im sorry if I crossed the line a bit, but I think what I said needed to be said... SoaS is indeed the best plqtform right now and the kids not only loved it (one 9 the other 3) they needed no explanation for the interface... to them it was as natural as eating a piece of bread. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? Aleksey Lim recently took over this orphaned package. Can you get in touch with him (alsroot on IRC) and help work it out? I have yet to even try SoaS but information on what activities do and don't work should be posted to http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/ActivityStatus so we can triage them. We are watching that page. Thus far most of our work has been migrating activities over to SL.org but hopefully we can start actually getting them to work on SoaS soon. On a sidenote: some of the most exciting work for me last summer was Hemant's text-to-speech work, which would have real impact if its integration into Sugar were completed. How close is that to being possible? http://dev.laptop.org/~wadeb/TypingTurtle-9.xo is the latest release but I can't
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 03:57:22AM +0100, David Van Assche wrote: you know what the irony is with all this... all we need to do to get those packs working is type ./configure --with-libabiword I know because I took the painful step of doing it in from source... this problem has now existed for 8 months... u tell me if that is acceptable or not. u know the worst part of this entire debacle... only the packzge ,aintainer can fix this 2 second fix::: but obviously he has more important things to do. The one-line fix works only on combined compile and working environment. It takes slightly more to _package_ a library properly. The important things holding back Debian from fixing this at the moment is to actually release the 20-something-thousand packages as a whole. For Ubuntu the problem seems (from bugreports tagging the issue as fixed and then unfixed again) that the people actually working on running ahead of Debian for this specific issue are unskilled in packaging libraries. - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmS3zYACgkQn7DbMsAkQLjdHQCgj3TO7hmes1PZD+txgEhPCWEb fGoAoKPo+6J+WINxDvWmCx85pjx8ZklA =BsNg -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 16:22, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 03:57:22AM +0100, David Van Assche wrote: you know what the irony is with all this... all we need to do to get those packs working is type ./configure --with-libabiword I know because I took the painful step of doing it in from source... this problem has now existed for 8 months... u tell me if that is acceptable or not. u know the worst part of this entire debacle... only the packzge ,aintainer can fix this 2 second fix::: but obviously he has more important things to do. The one-line fix works only on combined compile and working environment. It takes slightly more to _package_ a library properly. The important things holding back Debian from fixing this at the moment is to actually release the 20-something-thousand packages as a whole. For Ubuntu the problem seems (from bugreports tagging the issue as fixed and then unfixed again) that the people actually working on running ahead of Debian for this specific issue are unskilled in packaging libraries. Jonas, I'm rather unskilled at packaging myself. However, somebody's got to do it, and when I made noise about it nobody else stepped up. Ubuntu has a feature freeze in 8 days. We'll do what we can. No, we'll do what we have to. BTW if you have any comments on the packaging of abiword or pyabiword, please speak up - here, or the debian or ubuntu lists. If possible, I'd like to fix this in a way that we can sync back with you after lenny releases... Regards Morgan ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On 11.02.2009, at 10:59, Morgan Collett wrote: etoys This is packaged, but I think we're still missing a bit - the actual sugar activity for etoys. I don't personally have the time to work on it because I'm working on the above (and the actual glucose packages). What needs to be done there? Can anybody else package this? The activity is here: Bundle: http://etoys.laptop.org/rpms/Etoys-99.xo Tarball: http://download.sugarlabs.org/sources/sucrose/fructose/Etoys/Etoys-99.tar.gz - Bert - ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 03:57:05PM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote: On 11.02.2009, at 10:59, Morgan Collett wrote: etoys This is packaged, but I think we're still missing a bit - the actual sugar activity for etoys. I don't personally have the time to work on it because I'm working on the above (and the actual glucose packages). What needs to be done there? Can anybody else package this? Yes, anyone with some interest in .deb packaging can help. Debian POV: Someone needs to volunteer packaging sugar-etoys-activity. Drop an email to debian-olpc-de...@lists.alioth.debian.org . Ubuntu POV: Someone needs to volunteer hacking[1] together a sugar activity package until a Debian package can be adopted. More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SugarTeam I recommend helping as upstream as possible instead of only locally for Ubuntu. YMMV. - Jonas [1] I do not mean to say that Ubuntu packaging in principle is any worse quality than packages adopted from Debian. Just that Ubuntu generally seems to generally favor passing on the grunt work to Debian and treat locally packaged stuff as temporary, i.e. hacks. - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmS84kACgkQn7DbMsAkQLjj7gCeOHNkXx0yX1vSnJx7NDnN36YY 4RgAn3lJ+8ypu6NpxWPU0fiUodTIXuvS =y5x6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: Debian POV: Someone needs to volunteer packaging sugar-etoys-activity. Drop an email to debian-olpc-de...@lists.alioth.debian.org . Ubuntu POV: Someone needs to volunteer hacking[1] together a sugar activity package until a Debian package can be adopted. More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SugarTeam I recommend helping as upstream as possible instead of only locally for Ubuntu. YMMV. Yes, but our hacks are the result of a lack of understanding of your git-based packaging; we found it much simpler to use a workflow like svn-buildpackage with get-orig-source where we don't have to deal with multiple branches, etc. All the benifits of using git are moot since you use a patch system, which I think is a better workflow. It's interesting that Ubuntu had *working* sugar packages with *more* working activities six months ago. This is no longer the case, as we've synced to Debian packaging (which had some show-stopper bugs that required us to patch *each* activity you/we were shipping). If you'd support a sugar-whatever-activity package that didn't use git-buildpackage or the multi-branch/tree workflow, I'd be happy to produce one, but as it stands the build and import process is undocumented. The lack of proper documentaiton has caused Morgan and I considerable frustration, adn was the reason that we decided to fork into non-git packaging for our temporary Ubuntu hacks. (ie making it work in a month so other people can actually use it) [1] I do not mean to say that Ubuntu packaging in principle is any worse quality than packages adopted from Debian. Just that Ubuntu generally seems to generally favor passing on the grunt work to Debian and treat locally packaged stuff as temporary, i.e. hacks. -- Luke Faraone http://luke.faraone.cc ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On 2/11/09, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:24:20AM -0500, Luke Faraone wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: Debian POV: Someone needs to volunteer packaging sugar-etoys-activity. Drop an email to debian-olpc-de...@lists.alioth.debian.org . Ubuntu POV: Someone needs to volunteer hacking[1] together a sugar activity package until a Debian package can be adopted. More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SugarTeam I recommend helping as upstream as possible instead of only locally for Ubuntu. YMMV. Yes, but our hacks are the result of a lack of understanding of your git-based packaging; That is one way to put it. Another is that you have had no interest in starting out with simple stuff before complex stuff. I kept recommending you to try package an activity with no odd dependencies (i.e. written in Python), but you kept wanting to upgrade core Sugar libraries. You do not even need to use my packaging style. Just do not expect my help, then. Discuss it with other members of the OLPC Alioth list, with debian-mentors or whatever. All I say here is to avoid duplicate work: Package for Debian and pull that into derivatives, rather than packaging uniquely for each pet derived distro. It's interesting that Ubuntu had *working* sugar packages with *more* working activities six months ago. This is no longer the case, as we've synced to Debian packaging (which had some show-stopper bugs that required us to patch *each* activity you/we were shipping). Blame yourself for abandoning superior(?) packaging! My reasons for different packaging style than older work by Jani Monoses is here: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debian-olpc-devel/2008-April/84.html Blame yourself for needing distro-specific workarounds: They are caused by your running ahead of Debian and then later wanting to adopt Debian packaging that when in slightly different direction than your earlier work. If you'd support a sugar-whatever-activity package that didn't use git-buildpackage or the multi-branch/tree workflow, I'd be happy to produce one, If you by you are referring to Debian, then sure, Debian supports other packaging styles. If you are referring to me personally, then no, I see no reason to support any other packaging styles than I want to use myself. If you are referring to the Alioth team, then feel free to use other schemes. I am not the law. Heck, I am not even an admin of that group. I just happen to actually get some work done. Your freedom to choose packaging style should come as no surprise: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debian-olpc-devel/2008-December/000681.html http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debian-olpc-devel/2009-January/000885.html http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debian-olpc-devel/2009-February/000894.html but as it stands the build and import process is undocumented. Bullshit! Complex parts, irrelevant for activity packaging, is missing. So stop whining and start packaging some simple Sugar activities. Maybe we're just thick, but neither Morgan nor I were able to use your git README.packaging to upgrade a package to a new upstream version. It doesn't matter wheter we were upgrading sugar-base or Pippy. It seems that the file is missing some steps; moreover, how can we be expected to package new activities with git when even the steps for maintaining existing ones are lacking. -- Luke Faraone http://luke.faraone.cc ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On 2/11/09, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:24:20AM -0500, Luke Faraone wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: Debian POV: Someone needs to volunteer packaging sugar-etoys-activity. Drop an email to debian-olpc-de...@lists.alioth.debian.org . Ubuntu POV: Someone needs to volunteer hacking[1] together a sugar activity package until a Debian package can be adopted. More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SugarTeam I recommend helping as upstream as possible instead of only locally for Ubuntu. YMMV. Yes, but our hacks are the result of a lack of understanding of your git-based packaging; That is one way to put it. Another is that you have had no interest in starting out with simple stuff before complex stuff. I kept recommending you to try package an activity with no odd dependencies (i.e. written in Python), but you kept wanting to upgrade core Sugar libraries. You do not even need to use my packaging style. Just do not expect my help, then. Discuss it with other members of the OLPC Alioth list, with debian-mentors or whatever. All I say here is to avoid duplicate work: Package for Debian and pull that into derivatives, rather than packaging uniquely for each pet derived distro. It's interesting that Ubuntu had *working* sugar packages with *more* working activities six months ago. This is no longer the case, as we've synced to Debian packaging (which had some show-stopper bugs that required us to patch *each* activity you/we were shipping). Blame yourself for abandoning superior(?) packaging! My reasons for different packaging style than older work by Jani Monoses is here: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debian-olpc-devel/2008-April/84.html Blame yourself for needing distro-specific workarounds: They are caused by your running ahead of Debian and then later wanting to adopt Debian packaging that when in slightly different direction than your earlier work. If you'd support a sugar-whatever-activity package that didn't use git-buildpackage or the multi-branch/tree workflow, I'd be happy to produce one, If you by you are referring to Debian, then sure, Debian supports other packaging styles. If you are referring to me personally, then no, I see no reason to support any other packaging styles than I want to use myself. If you are referring to the Alioth team, then feel free to use other schemes. I am not the law. Heck, I am not even an admin of that group. I just happen to actually get some work done. Your freedom to choose packaging style should come as no surprise: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debian-olpc-devel/2008-December/000681.html http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debian-olpc-devel/2009-January/000885.html http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/debian-olpc-devel/2009-February/000894.html but as it stands the build and import process is undocumented. Bullshit! Complex parts, irrelevant for activity packaging, is missing. So stop whining and start packaging some simple Sugar activities. Maybe we're just thick, but neither Morgan nor I were able to use your git README.packaging to upgrade a package to a new upstream version. It doesn't matter wheter we were upgrading sugar-base or Pippy. It seems that the file is missing some steps; moreover, how can we be expected to package new activities with git when even the steps for maintaining existing ones are lacking. -- Luke Faraone http://luke.faraone.cc ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:38:27PM -0500, Luke Faraone wrote: On 2/11/09, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:24:20AM -0500, Luke Faraone wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: Debian POV: Someone needs to volunteer packaging sugar-etoys-activity. Drop an email to debian-olpc-de...@lists.alioth.debian.org . Ubuntu POV: Someone needs to volunteer hacking[1] together a sugar activity package until a Debian package can be adopted. More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SugarTeam I recommend helping as upstream as possible instead of only locally for Ubuntu. YMMV. [details back and forth snipped] Maybe we're just thick, but neither Morgan nor I were able to use your git README.packaging to upgrade a package to a new upstream version. It doesn't matter wheter we were upgrading sugar-base or Pippy. It seems that the file is missing some steps; moreover, how can we be expected to package new activities with git when even the steps for maintaining existing ones are lacking. Maybe it is me who are thick. Let's see if I understand it correctly: 1) You consider packaging Pippy and sugar-base my way equally complex. 2) Failure to understand my way of sugar-base packaging is your reason for not packaging *anything* in *any* way through Debian. Or did I miss something? - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmTJD0ACgkQn7DbMsAkQLgVKACeOlcvrypk9ENwzMaO/4IO1nu2 DYgAn39Vp/oFchHoA52j6Nso5puJY8AM =cx7E -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Feb 11, 2009, at 2:17 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:38:27PM -0500, Luke Faraone wrote: On 2/11/09, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:24:20AM -0500, Luke Faraone wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: Debian POV: Someone needs to volunteer packaging sugar-etoys-activity. Drop an email to debian-olpc-de...@lists.alioth.debian.org . Ubuntu POV: Someone needs to volunteer hacking[1] together a sugar activity package until a Debian package can be adopted. More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SugarTeam I recommend helping as upstream as possible instead of only locally for Ubuntu. YMMV. [details back and forth snipped] Maybe we're just thick, but neither Morgan nor I were able to use your git README.packaging to upgrade a package to a new upstream version. It doesn't matter wheter we were upgrading sugar-base or Pippy. It seems that the file is missing some steps; moreover, how can we be expected to package new activities with git when even the steps for maintaining existing ones are lacking. Maybe it is me who are thick. Let's see if I understand it correctly: 1) You consider packaging Pippy and sugar-base my way equally complex. 2) Failure to understand my way of sugar-base packaging is your reason for not packaging *anything* in *any* way through Debian. Or did I miss something? - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmTJD0ACgkQn7DbMsAkQLgVKACeOlcvrypk9ENwzMaO/4IO1nu2 DYgAn39Vp/oFchHoA52j6Nso5puJY8AM =cx7E -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 02:26:28PM -0500, Luke Faraone wrote: On Feb 11, 2009, at 2:17 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:38:27PM -0500, Luke Faraone wrote: 1) You consider packaging Pippy and sugar-base my way equally complex. 2) Failure to understand my way of sugar-base packaging is your reason for not packaging *anything* in *any* way through Debian. Or did I miss something? Yes, I'm saying the package maintinence operations under git-buildpackage are more or less the same. Obviously, you need to make changes to the buildfile, etc. I also fail to see the use of using git-buildpackage; we aren't going to make use of upstream git snapshots and are almost always going to be using an upstream tarball. Finally, git versioning and merging is of little use since we are using CDBS' patchsystem. No need to get into details of what exactly is flawed with my packaging style, or how you would do things differently: 1) I can continue to do things my way 2) You can continue being ignorant of Debian not mandating a specific packaging style. 3) Others are still free to follow my recommendation: Package through Debian, not directly at their pet derived distribution, to avoid duplicated work. Thanks for your time, and interest in working together. - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmTLVoACgkQn7DbMsAkQLjSqQCdGy0BqjqcBJ45mwwCNm5OC2oP xCoAoJsbTVSxFbW25Xw38WaZyyX/q6R0 =9rvB -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: No need to get into details of what exactly is flawed with my packaging style, or how you would do things differently: I'm just trying to see if I'm missing something as far as the workflow. Simply put, the commands given in your README do *not* work at all without additional undocumented steps. 2) You can continue being ignorant of Debian not mandating a specific packaging style. Oh, I understand this, and will add new packages to Debian as I always have. 3) Others are still free to follow my recommendation: Package through Debian, not directly at their pet derived distribution, to avoid duplicated work. We tried that, however you stated that you wanted to continue to use 0.82 for now. -- Luke Faraone http://luke.faraone.cc ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 03:38:04PM -0500, Luke Faraone wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote: No need to get into details of what exactly is flawed with my packaging style, or how you would do things differently: I'm just trying to see if I'm missing something as far as the workflow. You insist that these Debian-specific details should be shared with Bert, the Sugarlabs pedagogical list and the Sugarlabs development list. Very well... Simply put, the commands given in your README do *not* work at all without additional undocumented steps. Thanks for clarifying: My packaging style *is* documented, just incomplete. Others have found those shitty, half-baked incomplete notes useful. You have ignored help offered at the OLPC mailinglist at Alioth. Your only interest seems to be in upgrading core Sugar libraries to the unstable branch, not starting out with simple activities. My packaging style consists of git-buildpackage and CDBS, as you seem well aware. Both are in themselves rather well documented. Go read that documentation if you dislike mine. Or don't: You can package other packages using other packaging styles if you wish - just don't expect me to help you out with that. And don't try to change packaging style of existing packages. 3) Others are still free to follow my recommendation: Package through Debian, not directly at their pet derived distribution, to avoid duplicated work. We tried that, however you stated that you wanted to continue to use 0.82 for now. You complain that the packaging is too complex, yet you need even more complexity to track not only latest stable branch but also HEAD. Or more likely: you want us to package in the pace of Ubuntu release cycle (latest stable, except when Ubuntu is far from next release). Sorry, can't help you there. Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmTTFMACgkQn7DbMsAkQLiK2ACeLvHOc0sigRrhQjjqglnLbY+5 wAUAoJBO7W5jhIiyvlxuyYlIwU80pvC8 =Gl2y -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Carol Farlow Lerche c...@msbit.comwrote: Caroline, I really don't think the problem is lack of testing in the case of Ubuntu. It is that so little works that activity testing is basically a smoke test (turn it on and see if it even comes up). And because the only status report is a bunch of individual bug reports, there is a high barrier to entry. My strategy has been to try every week or so to update the packages on my Ubuntu laptop and try launching everything. Most packaged activities don't launch. As for SOAS, my experience working in a classroom tells me there is no point in bothering with it until the boot time is substantially reduced, except for the special case of a computer lab. Since my particular school environments and Sugar/OLPC targets don't include that mode, I personally have not been trying it out. FWIW, my deployment timeline for SoaS at the Gardner School is informal usage this summer and classroom usage in the Fall. Anyone using it on a more aggressive timeline should be aware that they are ahead of me and breaking new ground and plan accordingly. On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: hmm, ok I find that page pretty confusing and hard to use but then I'm not a wiki is all type person. If its working for you and your the activity team then we should try to use it. Maybe you could cross link from the SoaS page. http://sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick I think our underlying problem is that there is not very much testing being done. On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: We are trying to gather activity status information at http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/ActivityStatus - there is a 'soas' tag which indicates the activity works on SoaS, any errors should be reported in the Remarks column. But despite a few public requests we haven't managed to get any SoaS test results posted there. -Wade On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Caroline Meeks solutiongr...@gmail.com wrote: Do we have a place for testers to record the what works with which release? If not perhaps someone could set it up on the moodle system schools.sugarlab.org using the moodle database module: http://docs.moodle.org/en/Database_module On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: ok? I guess this will be contreversial but it must be said and acted upon (much more importantly) Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? ubuntu - no read no write no jiggzawpuzzle etoys scratch epathi measure anything tam tam based until very recently even browse pdf reader of any kind measure distance slider video chat abc flower (thing doesnt even exist) ok, that is about 50% of the failed testtube babies... what is the solution: we test the damn tings before release we do what greg dekoenigsberg quite elegantly suggested. a 3 tier solution: 1. make an educator mailinglist we get every educator we know on the list. We start off the discussion with what is really needed... the simple stuff... the stuff u guru coders can whip up in days: Examples: 1. typing tutor... all it should do is allow kids to follow whatever the teacher is directing. speed of typing is recorded? accuracy; graph based report; printable to parents... stars given to best pupils... guys these are real world scenarios... not invented by devs.. asked for by teachers qnd not surprisingly thinking why it does not yet exist. 2 same for maths... times tables/division/addition/substraction groupings of kids, reports, printibale to both parents ant teachers... 2. (gdk) guys this is what teachers want... I reallly hate to say this; but the stuff right now on sugar apart from speak, which when working every teacher loves, is an absolute waste of educators time... yes the activities can be properly used... but basics first! mailing list to get the, involved; we mention the activities that we (welll actually they) have come up with, we discuss very briefly; 3: (gdk)then make a moodle/wiki page where educators and devs get together to create the tools that we actually need (the ones that will really chqnge the world) I hope no one takes this is as a critcism of the effort put into creating activities till now; but people... lets frocus... lets sugar mean something for teachers David (nubae) Van Assche ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax ___
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: First of all, IMO the *only* stable Sugar OS is OLPC XO Software 8.2.0 running on XO or emulator. As far as I know, none of the other distributions has caught up in terms of activity support. FWIW, I am keeping an eye on this, hoping that a second Sugar platform emerges. The questions in the back of my mind are: - What are you guys running / developing on? - What are you guys testing? - Are any SL'ers dogfooding 100% of their computer time? (as now Sugar is closer to Just Working on conventional laptops) On what platform? Wearing my XSA hat, I want to get my hands on that second Sugar platform and test interop with the XS. Wearing my wellington volunteer tester hat, I want to know if there's a non OLPCXO OS we should be targetting. cheers, martin -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 1:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: ok? I guess this will be contreversial but it must be said and acted upon (much more importantly) Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? ubuntu - no read no write no jiggzawpuzzle etoys scratch epathi measure anything tam tam based until very recently even browse pdf reader of any kind measure distance slider video chat abc flower (thing doesnt even exist) ok, that is about 50% of the failed testtube babies... It might help to just give up on Ubuntu and just work with Fedora. We've documented the issue with libabiword on Ubuntu and Debian very, very clearly for many months. Martin Sevior ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: First of all, IMO the *only* stable Sugar OS is OLPC XO Software 8.2.0 running on XO or emulator. As far as I know, none of the other distributions has caught up in terms of activity support. FWIW, I am keeping an eye on this, hoping that a second Sugar platform emerges. The questions in the back of my mind are: - What are you guys running / developing on? - What are you guys testing? - Are any SL'ers dogfooding 100% of their computer time? (as now Sugar is closer to Just Working on conventional laptops) On what platform? I am dogfooding a bit with the Fedora SoaS. My Thinkpad X40 under XP has trouble connecting to the wireless at school so I've been using SoaS to take notes during class. It has no problem connecting to the wireless, using browse to let me take notes in google docs, and this week I was able to download and open word docs. I can read gmail. I can play with turtle art if I get board. :) Wearing my XSA hat, I want to get my hands on that second Sugar platform and test interop with the XS. Yes, we need SoaS to work with the XS It will not be ready for any deployment until we can back up and restore to an XS. Its just too easy to lose a USB stick and then have lost all your data. Wearing my wellington volunteer tester hat, I want to know if there's a non OLPCXO OS we should be targetting. cheers, martin -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
God I a m happy u stated the needed. We hqd a presentation in Grqz, Austria, where basically we walked out like idiots. We got loqds of feedback, which is what my message as about... but fact remains SoaS, be if fedora (a slight bit better) or ubuntu.. we as educators, marketers can only shake our heads... On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Carol Farlow Lerche c...@msbit.com wrote: Caroline, I really don't think the problem is lack of testing in the case of Ubuntu. It is that so little works that activity testing is basically a smoke test (turn it on and see if it even comes up). And because the only status report is a bunch of individual bug reports, there is a high barrier to entry. My strategy has been to try every week or so to update the packages on my Ubuntu laptop and try launching everything. Most packaged activities don't launch. As for SOAS, my experience working in a classroom tells me there is no point in bothering with it until the boot time is substantially reduced, except for the special case of a computer lab. Since my particular school environments and Sugar/OLPC targets don't include that mode, I personally have not been trying it out. FWIW, my deployment timeline for SoaS at the Gardner School is informal usage this summer and classroom usage in the Fall. Anyone using it on a more aggressive timeline should be aware that they are ahead of me and breaking new ground and plan accordingly. On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: hmm, ok I find that page pretty confusing and hard to use but then I'm not a wiki is all type person. If its working for you and your the activity team then we should try to use it. Maybe you could cross link from the SoaS page. http://sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick I think our underlying problem is that there is not very much testing being done. On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: We are trying to gather activity status information at http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/ActivityStatus - there is a 'soas' tag which indicates the activity works on SoaS, any errors should be reported in the Remarks column. But despite a few public requests we haven't managed to get any SoaS test results posted there. -Wade On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Caroline Meeks solutiongr...@gmail.com wrote: Do we have a place for testers to record the what works with which release? If not perhaps someone could set it up on the moodle system schools.sugarlab.org using the moodle database module: http://docs.moodle.org/en/Database_module On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: ok? I guess this will be contreversial but it must be said and acted upon (much more importantly) Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? ubuntu - no read no write no jiggzawpuzzle etoys scratch epathi measure anything tam tam based until very recently even browse pdf reader of any kind measure distance slider video chat abc flower (thing doesnt even exist) ok, that is about 50% of the failed testtube babies... what is the solution: we test the damn tings before release we do what greg dekoenigsberg quite elegantly suggested. a 3 tier solution: 1. make an educator mailinglist we get every educator we know on the list. We start off the discussion with what is really needed... the simple stuff... the stuff u guru coders can whip up in days: Examples: 1. typing tutor... all it should do is allow kids to follow whatever the teacher is directing. speed of typing is recorded? accuracy; graph based report; printable to parents... stars given to best pupils... guys these are real world scenarios... not invented by devs.. asked for by teachers qnd not surprisingly thinking why it does not yet exist. 2 same for maths... times tables/division/addition/substraction groupings of kids, reports, printibale to both parents ant teachers... 2. (gdk) guys this is what teachers want... I reallly hate to say this; but the stuff right now on sugar apart from speak, which when working every teacher loves, is an absolute waste of educators time... yes the activities can be properly used... but basics first! mailing list to get the, involved; we mention the activities that we (welll actually they) have come up with, we discuss very briefly; 3: (gdk)then make a moodle/wiki page where educators and devs get together to create the tools that we actually need (the ones that will really chqnge the world) I hope no one takes this is as a critcism of the effort put into creating activities till now; but people... lets frocus... lets sugar
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Caroline Meeks solutiongr...@gmail.com wrote: I am dogfooding a bit with the Fedora SoaS. My Thinkpad X40 ... Excellent news. Here's to more SL'ers doing the same :-) Wearing my XSA hat, I want to get my hands on that second Sugar platform and test interop with the XS. Yes, we need SoaS to work with the XS It will not be ready for any deployment until we can back up and restore to an XS. Its just too easy to lose a USB stick and then have lost all your data. Cool. Quick notes on what would need to happen... - ds-backup getting packaged for debian, at least the client side. If you have patches to offer that bring in a 'debian/' directory, I'll merge them in... - ds-backup server and client need to handle the repo format transition as discussed w Tomeu (IIRC, this is important for sites upgrading, so SoAS might not be affected...) SoAS seems (from afar) the most active and promising platform, so... yay! cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? Aleksey Lim recently took over this orphaned package. Can you get in touch with him (alsroot on IRC) and help work it out? I have yet to even try SoaS but information on what activities do and don't work should be posted to http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/ActivityStatus so we can triage them. We are watching that page. Thus far most of our work has been migrating activities over to SL.org but hopefully we can start actually getting them to work on SoaS soon. On a sidenote: some of the most exciting work for me last summer was Hemant's text-to-speech work, which would have real impact if its integration into Sugar were completed. How close is that to being possible? http://dev.laptop.org/~wadeb/TypingTurtle-9.xo is the latest release but I can't guarantee it works on anything but XO. [Getting pretty hot...] SJ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] activites known not to either work at all or not on certin platforms
well this entire conversation was really brought about because I couldnt practice speech with my 2 nephews... Im sorry if I crossed the line a bit, but I think what I said needed to be said... SoaS is indeed the best plqtform right now and the kids not only loved it (one 9 the other 3) they needed no explanation for the interface... to them it was as natural as eating a piece of bread. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:14 PM, David Van Assche dvanass...@gmail.com wrote: Im gonna try and make this easy: SoaS - the latest fedora core based I tried to impress my 9 year old gescwister... (related one) Speak - it will not even launch why is it then on a disitributed stick? Aleksey Lim recently took over this orphaned package. Can you get in touch with him (alsroot on IRC) and help work it out? I have yet to even try SoaS but information on what activities do and don't work should be posted to http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/ActivityStatus so we can triage them. We are watching that page. Thus far most of our work has been migrating activities over to SL.org but hopefully we can start actually getting them to work on SoaS soon. On a sidenote: some of the most exciting work for me last summer was Hemant's text-to-speech work, which would have real impact if its integration into Sugar were completed. How close is that to being possible? http://dev.laptop.org/~wadeb/TypingTurtle-9.xo is the latest release but I can't guarantee it works on anything but XO. [Getting pretty hot...] SJ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
