Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-05-02 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 05/01/2007 at 11:25 AM, Patrick O'Keefe [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: This calulates the offset of the middle element of a table FSVO middle. r2 = table entry length r3 = (non-zero) table length BXLE R2,R2,* DOUBLE OFFSET UNTIL TAB SIZE SRL

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-05-01 Thread Patrick O'Keefe
On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 13:55:24 -0300, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... *All* instructions should be used with care and with adequate documentation. You don't need new instructions to write obscure code; it's been done with BXH and BXLE. ... From a binary search routine I

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-30 Thread Tom Marchant
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 17:41:44 EDT, Bill Fairchild wrote: (2) so I can understand the code 6 months later Or sometimes even the next week. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-30 Thread Thomas Berg
Or next hour... Yes, I have had those times... == Tom Marchant == wrote2007-04-30 14:29: On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 17:41:44 EDT, Bill Fairchild wrote: (2) so I can understand the code 6 months later Or sometimes even the next week. -- __

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-30 Thread Thomas H Puddicombe
@BAMA.UA.EDU 04/28/2007 05:41 PM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU cc Subject Re: latest Principles of Operation In a message dated 4/27/2007 5:28:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Unless you have gotten so old you

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-30 Thread Howard Brazee
On 30 Apr 2007 08:00:17 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas H Puddicombe) wrote: Unless you have gotten so old you can't remember what your own code does. I have had that problem since way before I got old (or at least older). The two main reasons why I write lots of comments in my code: (1)

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-29 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 04/27/2007 at 03:54 PM, Patrick O'Keefe [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And (from from earlier in this thread), it is very rare for a carpenter to have to understand the internal workings of his tools well enough to rebuild them to fulfill a new purpose. And it is very rare

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-28 Thread Rick Fochtman
snip--- I once worked in an Assembler shop where the manager forbade the use of BXH/BXLE because he couldn't grasp how they worked. I did get to see some interesting dumps caused by BCT(R) loops gone awry, though. :-)

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-28 Thread (IBM Mainframe Discussion List)
In a message dated 4/27/2007 5:28:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Unless you have gotten so old you can't remember what your own code does. I have had that problem since way before I got old (or at least older). The two main reasons why I write lots of comments

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-28 Thread Frank I Rosenzweig
Bill, I totally agree. While I knew (I'm old, too) all the clever things I could do in ASM/HLASM in OS/360 == early z/OS througout my career as a sysprog writing system level code, it was imperative that I documented all of my code and used documented operating system interfaces (even SVC

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Dean Kent
Rick Fochtman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip--- Complexity is far too often used as an excuse for incompetence or laziness; not always or even most of the time, but still far too often. You don't let a carpenter

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Howard Brazee
On 27 Apr 2007 09:07:25 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dean Kent) wrote: The human mind has a limited capacity for organizing information into something meaningful. It would be interesting to see a graph showing the percentage of people able to properly handle various levels of complexity, and I

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread john gilmore
Dean Kent writes: The human mind has a limited capacity for organizing information into something meaningful. It would be interesting to see a graph showing the percentage of people able to properly handle various levels of complexity, and I suspect that as the complexity increases the

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Dean Kent
Howard Brazee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] A lot of our smarts is in seeing patterns, simplifying what we are looking for. Occasionally this kind of shortcut causes us to miss things, but pattern recognition allows the chess master to ignore dead ends that

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Anne Lynn Wheeler
(simplified) in the morph from cp67 to vm370. so possibly still part of the recovery in the aftermath of future system project ... recent reference in this thread http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#31 Latest Principles of Operation I was given the opportunity to reintroduce the resource manager

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Dean Kent
- Original Message - From: john gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 10:57 AM Subject: Re: latest Principles of Operation Views like his are common, but they are also curiously parochial. Someone who wants

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Patrick O'Keefe
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:57:12 +, john gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dean Kent writes: The human mind has a limited capacity for organizing information into something meaningful. ... ... Views like his are common, but they are also curiously parochial. Someone who wants to do physics

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Chase, John
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of john gilmore Dean Kent writes: [ snip ] With programmers, on the other hand, we too often proceed very differently. Statement-level procedural languages like COBOL are frequently subsetted, the use of

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Ted MacNEIL
If the program can be done efficiently only by clever programming (and if that efficiency is really needed) then the clever programming needs to be accompanied by VERY clear documentation. Real programmers don't comment code. It was hard to write; it should be hard to read! (8-{} - Too busy

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread McKown, John
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick O'Keefe Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 3:55 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: latest Principles of Operation snip I seem to have lost the beginning of this sub-thread

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Shane
On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 16:22 -0500, McKown, John wrote: That's what I think started this fork() of the original therad. Which of course made the whole thing too complex. Maybe we need to make it simpler ... D'oh - back where it started. Time for my first coffee of the day. Shane ...

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Anne Lynn Wheeler
://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#25 Latest Principles of Operation http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#26 Latest Principles of Operation http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#31 Latest Principles of Operation http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#43 Latest Principles of Operation part

Re: latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-27 Thread Kirk Talman
Unless you have gotten so old you can't remember what your own code does. You start writing everything down. I represent that remark. IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU wrote on 04/27/2007 05:19:47 PM: If the program can be done efficiently only by clever programming (and

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Clark Morris
On 25 Apr 2007 12:33:54 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:16:47 -0500, Rick Fochtman wrote: With the new instructions, I now count 751 instructions documented in the POO. That's up a lot from the (IIRC) 143 for S/360. It's called evolution, son. Like it or

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Rick Fochtman
--snip--- nominally the argument is that complexity contributes to confusion and failures ... KISS is frequently better because it minimizes confusion which can be major source of failures, vulnerabilities, threats and exploits. however, another

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Edward Jaffe
Clark Morris wrote: The frustrating thing is that there is no compiler switch to tell most of the compilers that these instructions can be used because the target is known. ISV's normally have to hang back on using these instructions because the target processor may not have the instruction.

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread John Eells
Rick Fochtman wrote: That increased instruction set allows for vastly increased capability, in spite of the perceived complexity. Simple applications can still be coded using simple instructions, but more complex requirements can be met more simply and efficiently by using some of those added

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Jeffrey D. Smith
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:45 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Latest Principles of Operation Clark Morris wrote: The frustrating thing

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread David Andrews
On Thu, 2007-04-26 at 12:26 -0300, Clark Morris wrote: The frustrating thing is that there is no compiler switch to tell most of the compilers that these instructions can be used The IBMers contributing to GCC have been doing pretty well on this front. GCC 4.1 uses 34 new instructions for z9

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Mark H. Young
On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:58:01 -0600, Jeffrey D. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:45 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Latest Principles

Internal DASD Pathing (was: Latest Principles of Operation)

2007-04-26 Thread Patrick . Falcone
Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU 04/26/2007 12:10 PM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU cc Subject Re: Latest Principles of Operation Speaking of dual pathing.that brings to mind something I could not remember

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Anne Lynn Wheeler
most of the time, but still far too often. You don't let a carpenter into your house if he doesn't know how to use his tools, do you re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#25 Latest Principles of Operation http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#26 Latest Principles of Operation well, i

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Clark Morris
On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:13:37 -0300, in bit.listserv.ibm-main Clark Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26 Apr 2007 08:45:03 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Edward Jaffe) wrote: Clark Morris wrote: The frustrating thing is that there is no compiler switch to tell most of the compilers that these

Re: Internal DASD Pathing (was: Latest Principles of Operation)

2007-04-26 Thread Richards.Bob
3880-xx Controller series followed by the 3990-xxx series DASD was 3380-D, 3380-E, 3380-J, 3380-K, 3390-1, 3390-2, 3390-3 (today's major image) and 3390-9 (a true SLED pulled by crippled and maimed dogs) Yes, the 3380s had four paths. Do not recall if it was ever increased. Bob Richards

Re: Internal DASD Pathing (was: Latest Principles of Operation)

2007-04-26 Thread Ted MacNEIL
DASD was 3380-D, 3380-E, 3380-J, 3380-K, 3390-1, 3390-2, 3390-3 (today's major image) and 3390-9 (a true SLED pulled by crippled and maimed dogs) You forgot the old 3380-1 (the original). It had four on a stick and you could have internal path contention. Yes, the 3380s had four paths. Do not

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Scott Blackledge
Hi Tom, What is MVCOS? (Where did you hear about it?) Scott -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Edward Jaffe
Scott Blackledge wrote: What is MVCOS? (Where did you hear about it?) http://shareew.prod.web.sba.com/client_files/callpapers/attach/SHARE_in_Tampa_Bay/S8162JE123550.pdf -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread John P Baker
: Latest Principles of Operation Scott Blackledge wrote: What is MVCOS? (Where did you hear about it?) http://shareew.prod.web.sba.com/client_files/callpapers/attach/SHARE_in _Tampa_Bay/S8162JE123550.pdf -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Edward Jaffe
John P Baker wrote: It is disturbing that the MVCOS instruction is not described in the latest POP. And, quite surprising. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Bob Rutledge
Edward Jaffe wrote: John P Baker wrote: It is disturbing that the MVCOS instruction is not described in the latest POP. And, quite surprising. Not really--CSP didn't make it into the POP until some time after the Linux developers had been using it. Bob

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-26 Thread Edward Jaffe
Bob Rutledge wrote: Edward Jaffe wrote: John P Baker wrote: It is disturbing that the MVCOS instruction is not described in the latest POP. And, quite surprising. Not really--CSP didn't make it into the POP until some time after the Linux developers had been using it. MVCOS has been

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread Tom Marchant
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:10:15 -0700, John R. Ehrman wrote: The new updated to the z/Architecture Principles of Operation is now available at http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/a2278325.pdf With the new instructions, I now count 751 instructions documented in the POO. That's up a lot

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread Rick Fochtman
snip- The new updated to the z/Architecture Principles of Operation is now available at http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/a2278325.pdf With the new instructions, I now count 751 instructions documented in the POO. That's up a lot

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread Tom Marchant
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:16:47 -0500, Rick Fochtman wrote: With the new instructions, I now count 751 instructions documented in the POO. That's up a lot from the (IIRC) 143 for S/360. It's called evolution, son. Like it or not, we're stuck with it and it can be a good thing, in spite of

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread McKown, John
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Latest Principles of Operation snip That wasn't a complaint. Actually, I do like it, even

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread Howard Brazee
On 25 Apr 2007 12:41:18 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown, John) wrote: Paraphrasing: Having so many instructions will simply confuse the programmer! Better to have one, true way than many. http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/04/the_virtues_of_monoculture html This article is basically

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread (IBM Mainframe Discussion List)
In a message dated 4/25/2007 1:41:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With the new instructions, I now count 751 instructions documented in the POO. That's up a lot from the (IIRC) 143 for S/360. I do something similar, but less time-consuming. I look at the number

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread CICS Guy
Gee, the POO I use (paper) tops out at around 175 pages... -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of (IBM Mainframe Discussion List) Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:07 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Latest Principles

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread Ed Finnell
In a message dated 4/25/2007 3:19:22 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gee, the POO I use (paper) tops out at around 175 pages... How does it check for floating point decimal? ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread CICS Guy
Just 'cause it's 37 years out of date is no reason to pick on it... -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Finnell Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:24 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Latest Principles of Operation

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread Anne Lynn Wheeler
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. Howard Brazee [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That makes sense. But continuing that thought, I see Apple, which doesn't try to make its OS be all things for all

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-25 Thread Anne Lynn Wheeler
(and hardware manufacturers).Even if it *is* UNIX. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#25 Latest Principles of Operation apple os (and next before it) starts out with a MACH microkernel basis ... could be considered striving for KISS ... somewhat like the original CP67

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-24 Thread Tom Marchant
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:10:15 -0700, John R. Ehrman wrote: The new updated to the z/Architecture Principles of Operation is now available at http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/a2278325.pdf Thanks, John. Will it be available as a BookManager book too? -- Tom Marchant

Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-23 Thread John R. Ehrman (408-463-3543 T/543-)
The new updated to the z/Architecture Principles of Operation is now available at http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/a2278325.pdf John Ehrman -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-23 Thread Kirk Talman
Where is bit 27 of STORE FACILITY LIST in figure 4-18? We have a 2094-S18 with it on! IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU wrote on 04/23/2007 06:13:09 PM: On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:10:15 -0700, John R. Ehrman wrote: The new updated to the z/Architecture Principles of Operation

Re: Latest Principles of Operation

2007-04-23 Thread Steve Comstock
Tom Schmidt wrote: On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:10:15 -0700, John R. Ehrman wrote: The new updated to the z/Architecture Principles of Operation is now available ... So where is the MVCOS instruction? (I was expecting to find it in this update.) Good point! I haven't gotten around to