On 28/3/23 13:26, Tony Harminc wrote:
I use programming languages that I don't like all the time. C, in
particular, I dislike a lot. That doesn't mean they're not useful.
Whew! And I thought you were a C fanatic. Thanks for disabusing me of that.
Ha! I don't develop emotional attachments to
On 28/3/23 13:56, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
During my early training we were sent to learn Michael Jackson structured
programming.
I had a few brief years as an applications programmer back in the early
90s. I came from operations so I had to take the IBM aptitude test. The
interviewer held
It certainly does! Lots of applications developers hate that, but it always
seemed to me that it’s a necessary part of making usable code. If my users
never talked to me ("could you add a command arg that sorts the output this way
instead of that?"), I'd suspect - actually I'd be sure - that
The customer says, “Build me a house”.
So we build them a house.
Then after it is finished, they say, “that I can drive to the lake”.
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of
Steve Thompson
Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 5:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the
I just wasn't that devious, but yeah, happens in real shops more
than one cares to admit.
Steve Thompson
On 3/28/2023 6:20 PM, Charles Mills wrote:
Ha! I always said if I ever taught programming -- I never have -- I was going
to do that -- swap code between students.
The other thing I was
A friend shared this with me and I thought it was just extraordinary. It is not
"mainframe" but his comments on what happens when the marketeers run a tech
company will resonate with many of us. It’s a fairly long read. It’s a
transcript of a long interview done for a TV show – only a few
Ha! I always said if I ever taught programming -- I never have -- I was going
to do that -- swap code between students.
The other thing I was going to do in the same vein was give a programming
assignment -- perhaps with a fairly tight deadline -- and halfway through say
"oh, wait, the specs
Very good method ... I was teaching programming during my career, much
the same as you did,
but I never did it like that. But I also encouraged the students to
discuss their solutions with me
and with other students and required that there be comments and
meaningful variable names etc.
IMO,
In an effort to keep people from writing difficult to impossible
to maintain code, while I was teaching COBOL, I warned the
students that I would be picking a programming lesson, where once
it was completed, everyone would have to swap card decks and then
have to add the next lesson's function
PL/I (or actually PL/C) was the first language I was exposed to, also - took a
class in college while getting my Accounting degree - and I still think it's
wonderful. A classmate was interviewing me for a job with his employer a few
years later and asked me what I thought to be the principle
With the clever use of GOTOs and the use of different variables with
strange names
for the same purpose, you can even turn a less than 1000 lines COBOL
program completely unreadable.
I see such programs almost every day.
The biggest obstacle for keeping large COBOL programs maintainable is
Ok, to be fair I tnd to abbrvt evrthg I can and use two- and thr-chr var
nams. I couldn't do that if I were still writing application programs for
my employer. Instead I write tools, utilities and commands that anyone can
use but no one bothers to maintain. I try to be careful to use a
Kolusu, you are great and gracious! Thank you for this - it works as
expected. I will dress up the file a bit with a good header, date and
timestamp, and be able to turn it over to my user tomorrow. I greatly
appreciate the teaching through this, too.
Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton
>> Wow, I did not want this to be so difficult...but given a choice, I would
>> like the second approach
Billy,
It isn't that difficult; we just need to adjust the way we are summing the
results. Since you did not want the department row, we just need to switch to
using SUM instead of
What does "didn't work" mean? What did the CALL expansion look like?
The code might be clearer if you just coded LA R1,=F'3' before the CALL.
Your usage of MF=E is novel, and I'm hesitant to condemn it, but it's
non-standard.
Incidentally, why would you replace =F'1,2,3' on your second example
Wow, I did not want this to be so difficult...but given a choice, I
would like the second approach, as it is cleaner, but for the sake of
learning (if you don't mind), I would welcome the first option, also, to
make my training more complete!
Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton
--
Another typo, of course.
=X'000100030003' should be =X'000100020003'
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 12:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ASM call by value
So
>> Kolusu, this works well when I have records to work with, but if I have no
>> "D" records (sorry for the fat finger earlier...) to count or sum, I would
>> still like to produce a summary. There will be no DEPARTMENT rows, but I
>> would like to have the file name Header1, and a TOTAL line
So that didn't work. But after a lot of fiddling about, here's what works for
me. I LE enabled it so it will be reentrant.
ISCICS# CEEENTRY MAIN=NO
*SEE IF WE'RE RUNNING UNDER CICS BY CALLING @@GETCB...
CALL @@GETCB,MF=(E,=F'3') ...WITH VALUE INTEGER 3
CEETERM
Sorry, I have had my fill of debugging BookMaster/GML to produce
printable daily calendars for the big boss. I still used WSCRIPT and
some macro collections for my personal documents (for as long as I had a
mainframe to use).
Tom
On 3/28/2023 11:15 AM, Schmitt, Michael wrote:
You're close
Kolusu, this works well when I have records to work with, but if I have
no "D" records (sorry for the fat finger earlier...) to count or sum, I
would still like to produce a summary. There will be no DEPARTMENT rows,
but I would like to have the file name Header1, and a TOTAL line with
the 0
COBOL now has:
PERFORM UNTIL EXIT
[...]
END-PERFORM
And it has finally been implemented in Enterprise COBOL (v6.4; backported to
v6.3 on my request!).
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of
Andrew Rowley
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 5:02 AM
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 04:08:13 -0500, Bill Giannelli
wrote:
>What is the best or recommended way to copy or clone a SMPe Global CSI, Target
>and Dlib with all the underlying datasets?
>I want to create a new HLQ and clone under that.
>thanks
>Bill
A new HLQ for the zones? You're not going to
>> Kolusu, this works great, and the end user is happy with the detail. Now,
>> he wants one additional tweak. The top of the file (within the first two
>> rows) has this:
Billy,
If your intention is to pick the 2nd or 3rd record, all you need to do is add
the sequence number to the records
Kolusu, this works great, and the end user is happy with the detail.
Now, he wants one additional tweak. The top of the file (within the
first two rows) has this:
PROD.A31XAD.IDARTA00 ARTICLE LISTING BY
DEPARTMENT
(This starts in Col 2)
What do you see there that's not the same in SCRIPTW and SCRIPT/VS?
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Thomas Kern
The two are fairly close. I've used, and like, both.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Schmitt, Michael [michael.schm...@dxc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28,
How do you mark up a thesis in COBOL?
Yes, I know that you're more likely to use LaTeX than Script, but the point
remains that the macro language is an adjunct to a fairly easy to read language.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
You're close but this is an IBM product.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
Thomas Kern
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 10:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
I haven't seen the
Hi Bill,
You said: "...It seems to help with maintenance and updating of large,
complex commercial programs..."
Back in the mid-'80s, I used to support a 3-letter software vendor's
Payroll package.
The source was unreadable because of the amount and size of copybooks.
When compiled, the
I haven't seen the inside of Waterloo Script macros for al LONG time. It
will take me a while to get back into reading/debugging this just like
working with COBOL.
Tom
On 3/28/2023 10:50 AM, Pommier, Rex wrote:
Are you sure this is a program and not the result of a cat dancing a jig on
Are you sure this is a program and not the result of a cat dancing a jig on
your keyboard? LOL
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the
Yeah, but you can come back to a program years later and understand what it is
doing.
Unlike this:
.if &*i = 0 .th .se *i = 1
.el .se *i = 2
.se *tp = ''
.se *pos = &*tp
...@tbloop
.se *l = '&*&*i
.se *l = &*l + 2 + &$IN
.se *pos = &*pos + &*l
.se *tp = '&*tp &*pos'
.se *i = &*i + 1
.if &*i <=
> What is the best or recommended way to copy or clone a SMPe Global CSI,
> Target and Dlib with all the underlying datasets?
There's also the "native" BUILDMCS command, but then you have to figure out the
best way to do the updates that Kurt mentioned z/OSMF doing on your behalf.
- Adam
>I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that it's so
>WORDY.
***
I am not a COBOL programmer, except for some very minor attempts a long time
ago. However, I very much respect the proper use of the WORDY aspect. It
seems to help with maintenance and updating of large,
> What is the best or recommended way to copy or clone a SMPe Global CSI,
> Target and Dlib with all the underlying datasets?
> I want to create a new HLQ and clone under that.
If you don't already have a process or set of jobs defined to clone your SMP/E
environment, I suggest you check out
> I've found that GIMSMP opens the datasets in UPDATE mode, so the user will
> still need UPDATE or higher access. READ access fails when the program
> starts.
That is not true for all SMP/E commands. LIST for example, or the REPORT
commands, and the ISPF Query dialog, definitely open the
W dniu 27.03.2023 o 08:43, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
[...]
STP get its time from enterprise NTP servers.
Nothing comes preconfigured.
Ouch! Does IBM not even suggest the correct strings for TZ for various
locations?
AFAIR one can put even incorrect string for TZ. Several years ago I
tried
Dr Alan Kay said "...arrogance is measured in nano-Dijkstras", but to my
mind had a dry sense of humour :-)
Roops
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, 04:22 David Crayford, wrote:
> I think it was flippant Edsger W. Dijkstra quote:
>
> “The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should,
>
The point here is not whether the defense is valid, but rather that I defended
it against what I saw as an ivalid complaint despite not liking the language.
Be just.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe
On 28/03/2023 9:34 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
I once found myself defending the common idiom
for (;;) {
foo;
}
as a perfectly clear DO FOREVER.
I'm not sure that it is completely clear, it depends on knowledge if
whether the empty statement evaluates as true or false - or just
There was to classic Lindsey, C. H. and van der Meulen, S. G., Informal
Introduction to ALGOL 68, North-Holland, 1971; however, it did nothing to make
the formal definition intelligible. The report on ALGOL 68 badly needed a good
tech writer.
Contrast that to the Vienna report, a beautiful
1. "The check's in the mail."
2. "Trust me, honey, I've had a vasectomy."
3. "English like"
4. "Self documenting"
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
yes, I agree with you. It probably needed one informal text where it explained
how to program in it. There is an open source implementation which does a good
job at https://jmvdveer.home.xs4all.nl/en.algol-68-genie.html but I think its
downfall was the bad social dynamics that accompanied it,
Yes, COBOL has a lot of faults, and, yes, I consider PL/I to be much better.
However, a real programmer should be able to pick up a new language and be
productive in it, even one that he hates.
I distinguish between a person that views programming through COBOL colored
glasses and a programmer
IMHO, the lack of acceptance of ALGOL 68 had nothing to do with the language
itself. The general public thinks of Mathematics in terms of extreme formality
and indecipherable prose, but the reality is much different. Mathematical texts
are ladden with explanatory prose, and I view ALGOL 68
I would recommend the following:
1. Establish naming conventions for SMP datasets, target volumes and
distribution volumes that make backing up and restooring a single system easier.
2. Use static system symbols to allow promoting a new system easier, without
any need to change volume serial
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the response!
So, my current CSI, zones and underlying datasets are all within one storage
group, mixed in with other unrelated various datasets.
In order to guarantee a better backup, should I have our storage team define a
separate new storage group solely for new HLQ?
ADRDSSU . DUMP and RESTORE with HLQ rename. After that, you'll need to
modify DDDEFs to reflect the newly created underlying datasets.
On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 8:08 PM Bill Giannelli
wrote:
> What is the best or recommended way to copy or clone a SMPe Global CSI,
> Target and Dlib with all the
What is the best or recommended way to copy or clone a SMPe Global CSI, Target
and Dlib with all the underlying datasets?
I want to create a new HLQ and clone under that.
thanks
Bill
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive
It is very probable that he only liked ALGOL 58 and ALGOL 60, for which he (and
Jaap Zonneveld) made the first compiler (for the Electrologica X1), in an old
school building in a small street, the Boerhaavestraat in Amsterdam, which I
can see from my window across the river right now. The
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