On 5/11/2013 8:01 PM, Shane Ginnane wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:33:12 +, DASDBILL2 wrote:
Every young person contemplating a mainframe career should spend a week reading
IBM-Main. Maybe they do and that’s another reason why the profession is dying.
That's a bit close to the bone.
;) )
Ronald Kristel
NL
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:33:12 +
From: dasdbi...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Every young person contemplating a mainframe career should spend a week
reading IBM-Main.
Bill
Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Clark Morris
Sent: 05 November 2013 10:15
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
On 4 Nov 2013 11:49:17 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:
They said enough -- just
On Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:34:17 +, Ronald Kristel wrote:
On the contrary..., I subscribed to IBM-Main mainly because it actually helped
me understand a few things on my road of 'learning z/OS'.
Good for you - it's certainly an education. If you can winnow out the drivel.
Dave also wrote:
:
one of those for system programmers.
--- scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 09:26:28 -0800
Skip,
I totally agree, grew up
@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Steve Comstock
Sent: 05 November 2013 21:09
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
On 11/5/2013 12:51 AM, Robin Atwood wrote:
Diverting the thread a tad, does anyone know where you can do an HLASM
course? My young colleague wants
On Tue, 5 Nov 2013 07:16:52 -0600, Shane Ginnane wrote:
Linux is a lot more fun for the technically inquisitive these days IMHO.
It's far less encrusted with the patina of antiquity. Much of OS/360
made sense in the resource-constrained batch environment in which
it originated. Nowadays, its
On Tue, 5 Nov 2013 08:13:14 -0600, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote:
It's far less encrusted with the patina of antiquity. Much of OS/360
made sense in the resource-constrained batch environment in which
it originated. Nowadays, its residue is a requirement for compatibility;
an
My own experience is that teenagers, preternaturally bright ones
admittedly, can learn to cope with what I shall limit myself to
calling the patina of antiquity. (The phrase encrusted patina of
antiquity is euphonious; but encrustations obscure, very shortly
indeed destroy patinæ.)
What I miss
Robin Atwood said:
Diverting the thread a tad, does anyone know where you can do an HLASM
course? My young colleague wants to be inducted into the mysteries of the
ancient craft and we found various IBM courses (see below) but none of them
are currently being offered. Of course, various outfits
On 11/5/2013 at 12:54 PM, Ze'ev Atlas zatl...@yahoo.com wrote:
Adopt the methodology of the Unix, Linux and Windows echosystems, abandon any
assembly whatsoever, license C and write all code in that language.
Not quite. Performance critical sections are sometimes still written in
if they weren't so restrictive. This dinosaur hasn't died yet and probably
won't in the near future.
Jon Perryman.
From: Dana Mitchell mitchd...@gmail.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
Jon Perryman wrote:
[ ... lots of interesting comparisions between z/OS and UNIX / Linux ... ]
Lets see, you wrote about disk management, Apps, CPU, Networking, Recovery,
WLM, etc. Cool comparisions. Now I know. Thanks! ;-D
Could you be kind to list the differences between these systems on
On 11/5/2013 at 02:49 PM, Jon Perryman jperr...@pacbell.net wrote:
-snip-
As for showing that z/OS is not as bad as some would make
it out, here are some of the issues the cloud has addressed but not truly
resolved:
1. Disk full:
* Cloud: Some disk manufacturers have implementations
] On Behalf
Of Jon Perryman
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 1:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
We know Gilmartin considers UNIX elegant so he is a lost cause but it's sad
that he's bringing others to the dark side. He often gives UNIX
Bill,
I agree my gf is at a university. Young ppl for whatever reason lack critical
thinking skills, not all of the youngsters, some
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
On Nov 5, 2013, at 6:33 AM, DASDBILL2 dasdbi...@comcast.net wrote:
I
jperr...@pacbell.net (Jon Perryman) writes:
* UNIX: TCP/IP was not publicly available until the 70's. Prior to
that, simple communications were available.
* z/OS: SNA existed long before TCP/IP was available. SNA was a
robust, reliable and secure communications methodology. Once TCP was
David,
So true , i am 63 still working..Unfortunately, we need money to live...lol
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
On Nov 5, 2013, at 7:32 AM, David Crayford dcrayf...@gmail.com wrote:
On 5/11/2013 8:01 PM, Shane Ginnane wrote:
On
things evolved in the meantime.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013n.html#16 z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs =
Aging Farmers
mid-80s, top executives were predicting revenue would double (to
approx. $215B in today's dollars) mostly based on mainframe and
instituted massive internal building
On 6/11/2013 5:40 AM, Mark Post wrote:
Now if you want to point a finger at some things in Linux that really, really
could use improvement, let's talk about diagnostic instrumentation in the
operating system, as well as much better data for performance management. The
latter particularly is
On 6/11/2013 12:37 AM, John Gilmore wrote:
I do of course agree that z/OS is perceived to be boring, but that is
another question.
I don't think it's perceived as boring, certainly it's perceived as user
hostile. Take Pauls cp command example, it's easy to copy files
using a simple command.
For security, the ones I know about are LDAP, RSA.and standard UNIX security
model. I suspect there are others in the GRC field.
What makes UNIX so fun is what makes it so much work. There are many methods
and interfaces to do the same thing. In z/OS, we tend to have one or two
interfaces.
WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
jperr...@pacbell.net (Jon Perryman) writes:
* UNIX: TCP/IP was not publicly available until the 70's. Prior to
that, simple communications were available.
* z/OS: SNA existed long before TCP/IP was available. SNA was a
robust, reliable and secure
jperr...@pacbell.net (Jon Perryman) writes:
I meant to say when TCP/IP was publicly available. I think ARPANET was
only available to the military.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013n.html#16 z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs =
Aging Farmers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013n.html#17 z/OS
be improvements but that's true
for anything.
Jon Perryman.
From: Mark Post mp...@suse.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
On 11/5/2013 at 02:49 PM, Jon Perryman
On 6/11/2013 8:31 AM, Jon Perryman wrote:
For security, the ones I know about are LDAP, RSA.and standard UNIX security
model. I suspect there are others in the GRC field.
Your forgot kerberos, probably the most significant. z/OS supports LDAP
(Tivoli) and kerberos and so it should. It has to
On 11/5/2013 7:26 PM, David Crayford wrote:
I don't think it's perceived as boring, certainly it's perceived as user
hostile. Take Pauls cp command example, it's easy to copy files
using a simple command. For those that prefer GUIs they can drag and
drop or copy/paste. On the mainframe one has
On 6/11/2013 10:33 AM, Gerhard Postpischil wrote:
On 11/5/2013 7:26 PM, David Crayford wrote:
I don't think it's perceived as boring, certainly it's perceived as user
hostile. Take Pauls cp command example, it's easy to copy files
using a simple command. For those that prefer GUIs they can drag
Unix and Windows have a lot of similarities. User interfaces are often similar.
Most users will continue using those if possible.
z/OS has TSO, CICS and IMS. We have webservers. We can run X-window clients. We
can run Emacs. The ability exists. The problem is that the desire is not there
and
On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 08:18:39 +0800, David Crayford wrote:
On 6/11/2013 5:40 AM, Mark Post wrote:
Now if you want to point a finger at some things in Linux that really,
really could use improvement, let's talk about diagnostic instrumentation in
the operating system, as well as much better
the SAP/HA
modifications. A few years later, Linux-HA came out to support SAP/HA.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013n.html#16 z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs =
Aging Farmers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013n.html#17 z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs =
Aging Farmers
http://www.garlic.com
On 11/5/2013 5:26 PM, David Crayford wrote:
On 6/11/2013 12:37 AM, John Gilmore wrote:
I do of course agree that z/OS is perceived to be boring, but that is
another question.
I don't think it's perceived as boring, certainly it's perceived as user
hostile. Take Pauls cp command example, it's
On 6/11/2013 11:31 AM, Shane Ginnane wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 08:18:39 +0800, David Crayford wrote:
On 6/11/2013 5:40 AM, Mark Post wrote:
Now if you want to point a finger at some things in Linux that really, really
could use improvement, let's talk about diagnostic instrumentation in the
On 11/5/2013 at 09:33 PM, Gerhard Postpischil gerh...@valley.net wrote:
And I find cp terribly confusing - to a neophyte does it stand for
copy, or compare, or compress (as in disk reorganization). It might make
more sense if I could assign an alias of COPY to it.
Try alias copy=cp
or
On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:40:15 +0800, David Crayford wrote:
I know you can trace syscalls etc but do any of those traces compare to
system trace? Are there any traces for zLinux which report
hardware/software interrupts?
All the tools I mentioned are (predominantly) kernel-space.
ftrace (nominally
On 11/5/2013 at 08:59 PM, Jon Perryman jperr...@pacbell.net wrote:
These aren't imagined ills.
Of course they are, as I discussed.
They are ill's that have been healed in recent
year's (in the scheme of things).
Which means to repeat them _now_ is to talk about ancient history. So, don't
this.
Cheers
-Robin
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Mark Post
Sent: 06 November 2013 02:06
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
On 11/5/2013 at 12:54 PM, Ze'ev Atlas zatl...@yahoo.com wrote
News for you aging Sysprogs... :-)
It is not the mainframers who is aging while struggling to get new young
guys/gals into mainframes.
The farmers are also struggling here with this aging thing in South Africa and
United States.
Now read up those links before you retire! ;-)
Schools aren't training enough mainfarmers.;-)
Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - try it; you'll get it!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/program-development/simplist.html
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 02:41:39 -0600
From: elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
Subject: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
02:41:39 -0600
From: elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
Subject: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
News for you aging Sysprogs... :-)
It is not the mainframers who is aging while struggling to get new young
guys/gals into mainframes.
The farmers are also
Dave Salt wrote:
Schools aren't training enough mainfarmers.;-)
Because they're using ServerFarms for breeding bugs? ;-D
Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access
mainfarmers.;-)
Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - try it; you'll get it!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/program-development/simplist.html
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 02:41:39 -0600
From: elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
Subject: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
News for you aging
...@trainersfriend.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU,
Date: 11/04/2013 08:03 AM
Subject:Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
On 11/4/2013 8:58 AM, George Rodriguez wrote:
That's not 100% true...
Schools aren't training
jo.skip.robin...@sce.com
From: Steve Comstock st...@trainersfriend.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU,
Date: 11/04/2013 08:03 AM
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
On 11/4/2013 8:58 AM, George
Yeah, but farmers have their own dating site www.farmersonly.com. Never seen
one of those for system programmers.
--- scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
Date
To have an adequate supply of new sysprogs to replace those retiring, the
compensation needs to be more attractive than it is currently. Most of the
younger people in IT see mainframe technology as a dead end. They might not
know when it will expire, but they think it will die off sooner than
: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 10:58:04
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
That's not 100% true...
Schools aren't training enough mainfarmers.
There's a program in North Carolina that's teaching
I thought that was why we had those big SHARE and CMG conferences every year.
:-)
Bill Fairchild
Franklin, TN
- Original Message -
From: Richard Pinion rpin...@netscape.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2013 11:31:04 AM
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging
List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
That's not 100% true...
Schools aren't training enough mainfarmers.
There's a program in North Carolina that's teaching TSO, Cobol, JCL, etc...
and graduates are being hired by businesses that are using mainframe
computer
Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Clark Morris
Sent: 05 November 2013 10:15
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers
On 4 Nov 2013 11:49:17 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:
They said enough -- just because some are doesn't mean
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