Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

frank.swarbr...@outlook.com (Frank Swarbrick) writes: > Here's a somewhat interesting document: > https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pia/imf_pia.pdf. > "IMF is a batch driven application that uses VSAM files." > Date of Approval: February 28, 2017 PIA ID Number: 2140 A >

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

On 23/04/2018 9:29 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote: Isn't a class with no methods essentially a record type? Although that still leaves the issue of reading and writing them. Nope. There's no such thing as a Java class with no methods because all classes are sub-classes of the Object root class [1]

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

On 23/04/2018 9:23 PM, Jerry Callen wrote: C and C++ do NOT have garbage collection; memory management is controlled by the programmer, with C++ providing a lot of assistance in the form of constructors and destructors. String manipulation can be done in a variety of ways; C++, in particular,

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

On 23/04/2018 10:05 PM, Charles Mills wrote: The z114 has a new facility to help implement pauseless garbage collection. Note "pause less" garbage collection -- less pausing than previous implementations. Not pauseless as in "no pausing." Indeed. Thanks for the correction! Charles

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

> The z114 has a new facility to help implement pauseless garbage collection. Note "pause less" garbage collection -- less pausing than previous implementations. Not pauseless as in "no pausing." Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 8:23 AM, Jerry Callen wrote: > > I've programmed in assembler, PL/I, COBOL and C/C++. If you are dealing > with COBOL records that make extensive use of OCCURS DEPENDING ON, it > probably make sense to stick with COBOL. Otherwise, it's quite easy to >

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Isn't a class with no methods essentially a record type? Although that still leaves the issue of reading and writing them. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 18:29:38 -0400, Hobart Spitz wrote: >That's said, I can answer the question, for C/C++, as follows. (I pose the >question for Java, below.) > >*With the *nix/C record and string models, there are these issues:* > > 1. Errant/unexpected/unintended pieces

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

My young whippersnapper self (I'm 31 now, but I started my career as a mainframe developer at 23) remembers listening to the seasoned professionals talk about Y2K. They told me that they weren't all that concerned with Y2K on mainframe insurance administration and claims systems since they

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

C++ doesn't have garbage collection. Resource finalization is deterministic and performed by a destructor. Also, C++ has POD structs that map data in the same way as assembler, C, COBOL, PL/1 and access record based data sources in exactly the same way. Java doesn't have records and does not

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Somewhere, maybe in a different branch of this topic, there was a discussion about the pros and cons of replacing Assembler with Java. I apologize for posting here if it's the wrong place, but I can't seem to find the original discussion, and I have a question that seems relevant and important,

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

In 1975 there was a BOF, Bird's of a Feather Session on Year 2000 Concerns at the SPRING SHARE meeting, as I recall. BOF's were spontaneous evening meetings posted/scheduled usually that day. Barry Herbert W. “Barry” Merrill, PhD President-Programmer Merrill Consultants MXG Software 10717

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

> On Apr 20, 2018, at 3:26 PM, David L. Craig wrote: > > In 1974, we considered it, but the cost of a byte of disk storage was > enough to push the storage of each date's century toward the '90s. We > fully expected the remediation would be needed but storage would be more >

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

> On Apr 20, 2018, at 3:03 PM, Christopher Y. Blaicher > wrote: > > Windows programmers are blown away when I tell them that I still run a > program I wrote 45+ years ago. They ask if I have to re-compile it and I > tell them no, it is the same load module created way

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

> On Apr 20, 2018, at 2:13 PM, Paul Gilmartin > <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:14:20 -0700, Gerhard Adam wrote: > >> Applications don't get old. They either do what they're supposed to do or >> they don't. It has nothing to do with age. >>

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Sorry, but I see this as the extension of the nonsense LILCO pulled during a hurricane or a nor'easter (I can't recall which) where they blamed the lousy pole maintenance on the MF system's they were running. It was a bunch of nonsense. This is too. Doug Fuerst d...@bkassociates.net --

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

IBM designed EBCDIC to work with existing card punch equipment and 7 track tapes. ASCII had not been finalized. They included a mode switch into S360 but didn't implement it in software. On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 5:26 PM, Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

It seems your picking a fight that doesn't exist. The IRS, has not had a problem complying with the tax code, nor in processing returns. Software was clearly changed and capable of doing what was needed. COBOL was never intended to interface directly with networking software so it was no

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

On Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:14:20 -0700, Gerhard Adam wrote: >Applications don't get old. They either do what they're supposed to do or >they don't. >It has nothing to do with age. That's true if they don't need to be changed. But a program that has to be changed periodically does become harder

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

On Fri, 20 Apr 2018 19:25:54 +, Lester, Bob wrote: > >I agree with both you and Gil. But, how many programmers in the 60s, 70s, >even 80s were thinking about Y2K? Sure, the really good ones were, but what >about the other 80%? > >and, Y2K came off without a hitch...(FSVO - "hitch")

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

That looks more like when the TOD clock overflows. > On Apr 20, 2018, at 18:17, Lester, Bob wrote: > > I, OTOH, seem to remember 2049 as the (or our?) window. Not sure these days, > I'm busy in penguin land > > BobL

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

I, OTOH, seem to remember 2049 as the (or our?) window. Not sure these days, I'm busy in penguin land BobL -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Hoelscher Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 2:37 PM To:

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

I seem to recall that 69 was a popular choice for the window breakpoint ... Chris Hoelscher Technology Architect, Database Infrastructure Services Technology Solution Services Humana Inc. 123 East Main Street Louisville, KY 40202 Humana.com (502) 476-2538 or 407-7266 -Original Message-

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Now for those that didn't move to a 4 digit year to resolve Y2K but instead went to a window technique, how many of your current staff know what dates were used for the window so they can again fix the problem before it occurs. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

In 1974, we considered it, but the cost of a byte of disk storage was enough to push the storage of each date's century toward the '90s. We fully expected the remediation would be needed but storage would be more affordable by then, which panned out. What everybody got wrong was expecting the

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Windows programmers are blown away when I tell them that I still run a program I wrote 45+ years ago. They ask if I have to re-compile it and I tell them no, it is the same load module created way back then. Their jaws drop. Chris Blaicher Technical Architect Mainframe Development P:

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

I started in 1983 and it was thought about, but a few years in and everyone said the mainframe would be gone by 2000... That mainframe was gone by the mid 1990's. On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Lester, Bob wrote: > >Very good point! > > -Original Message- >

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Very good point! -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gerhard Adam Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 1:47 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

It was discussed, but the general feeling was that those systems would have been rewritten or replaced long before it became an issue. No one expected applications to be running 30-40 years after they were first implemented. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 20, 2018, at 12:25 PM, Lester, Bob

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Y2k had nothing to do with age. It had to do with what applications did or didn't do. If they had been written with 4 digit years they could have been written in 1964 and had no date issues. It wasn't like a LA instruction suddenly showed signs of age. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 20, 2018,

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

I agree with both you and Gil. But, how many programmers in the 60s, 70s, even 80s were thinking about Y2K? Sure, the really good ones were, but what about the other 80%? and, Y2K came off without a hitch...(FSVO - "hitch") I love Fridays... BobL -Original Message- From:

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

IMO, it was often an explicit decision based on the cost of the technology of the time. Also, apparently more often the correct decision given the subsequent and apparently successful mitigation. > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

That was due to lack of foresight by the programmer not due to the age of the system. This email message and any accompanying materials may contain proprietary, privileged and confidential information of CIT Group Inc. or its subsidiaries or affiliates (collectively, “CIT”), and are intended

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

On Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:14:20 -0700, Gerhard Adam wrote: >Applications don't get old. They either do what they're supposed to do or >they don't. It has nothing to do with age. > Remember Y2K? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Here's a somewhat interesting document: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pia/imf_pia.pdf. "IMF is a batch driven application that uses VSAM files." Date of Approval: February 28, 2017 PIA ID Number: 2140 A ... Date of Approval: February 28, 2017 PIA ID

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Applications don't get old. They either do what they're supposed to do or they don't. It has nothing to do with age. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Smith, Nathan (ATLANTA, GA) Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 6:13 AM

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

FUD - pure and simple - used to convince IT management and decision makers that they are on the wrong side of the equation. Truth, facts, etc. don't fit that narrative. -- Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor) < Mainframe Systems

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Why do people seem to ignore the fact that UNIX and the C Programming Language were being developed in 1969 and being used in the early '70s (thanks Bell Labs!)? I don't see the mad rush to do away with *nix-based systems or applications written in C because they're "old". Just because an

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

I have a theory that no news article yet written on IT is accurate (and maybe we could drop the "on IT"). Regardless, this one seems to entirely miss the point that *new* hardware had a problem, not the *old* software. Not to mention that while being unable to accept payments and returns is bad

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

Well, it's rather obvious that the people that wrote this article are about as ignorant as they come. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 19, 2018, at 3:47 PM, Nash, Jonathan S. > <01abdcef2f3c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day > Due to New

Re: IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 22:47:33 +, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: >IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day >Due to New Hardware > >By Aaron Boyd and Frank Konkel >April 19, 2018 06:02 PM >

IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware (nextgov.com)

IRS - 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware By Aaron Boyd and Frank Konkel April 19, 2018 06:02 PM https://www.nextgov.com/it-modernization/2018/04/irs-60-year-old-it-system-failed-tax-day-due-new-hardware/147598/ Congress and watchdogs have been warning the IRS to upgrade