Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Yep, same here. We were just voting on case commonality in the keyboard universe. In a message dated 1/14/2014 8:19:43 P.M. Central Standard Time, jwgli...@gmail.com writes: Both operations of course use the same tab settings. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Some have asserted that tab characters should be removed from source. However, for makefiles, according to the GNU Make Manual (for version 3.80) You need to put a tab character at the beginning of every command line. This has always struck me as lunacy, but it's an example of the IT golden rule - Who writes the software makes the rules. Dale Miller -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Dale Miller wrote: Some have asserted that tab characters should be removed from source. Good assertation. However, for makefiles, according to the GNU Make Manual (for version 3.80) You need to put a tab character at the beginning of every command line. Why? Better regular expression handling? Forced indentation? Start of line signals? This has always struck me as lunacy, Indeed, but I think they are just simply lazy or bored. ;-D but it's an example of the IT golden rule - Who writes the software makes the rules. And the users need to kneel before them when reporting bugs. ;-) Groete / Greetings Elardus Engelbrecht -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 2:02 AM, Dale Miller dalelmil...@comcast.netwrote: Some have asserted that tab characters should be removed from source. However, for makefiles, according to the GNU Make Manual (for version 3.80) You need to put a tab character at the beginning of every command line. This has always struck me as lunacy, but it's an example of the IT golden rule - Who writes the software makes the rules. Dale Miller Not just GNU make, but z/OS UNIX make as well. I can proffer an possible reason. Remember from whence UNIX came. The original terminals were serial terminals connected via RS-232. The tab key, then as now, was close to the left pinky finger (along with the shift key). So my guess is that the original programmers were thinking: What is an easy to hit key for a field delimiter which will allow us to use any printable character in a field value. Space? No, we might want spaces in the field value (such as a user's name in the /etc/passwd file). Hum, well, there is that TAB key placed nicely for relatively easy use, if we don't need it too often. Sounds like a winner. Why to z/OS people hate it? Because it cannot be easily inserted into a file/data set record when using the 3270 emulator. That's easy to fix. Don't try to shoe horn the 3270 emulator into the UNIX environment. It wasn't designed for it. You could, as I do, use an SSH connection to a UNIX shell prompt. Or, if in a secure environment, use line mode telnet directly into a UNIX shell. Yes, I know, ISPF EDIT won't run in a UNIX shell environment. We only have a really crappy version of vi. Well, we could try the nedit or the editors. They aren't my favorites. But if people want to complain about lack of a TSO ISPF environment in a UNIX shell from SSH/telnet, then I'll complain that I can't use grep or awk as a TSO command to process one or some or all members of a PDS. Or even as a TSO command from ISPF option 6 to run against a UNIX file or subdirectory. Yes, I know that I can write a REXX program which can be run from ISPF 6 which would properly use SYSCALL to invoke a UNIX program to process a UNIX file/subdirectory. Too bad there appears to be no way to run a REXX program from the UDLIST display of UNIX files as you can from ISPF 3.4 for data sets. IOW, UNIX and TSO could be better integrated. But that is unlikely. From what I can see, IBM wants us to migrate from TSO ISPF to the workstation based Eclipse RD/z product. One reason is that it is seat licensed. And damned expensive. Which is one reason why this company is unlikely to migrate to it. The other is that it doesn't work the same as ISPF. I've already handled complaints from others in Tech Services that z/OS UNIX is unusable because it doesn't work like Windows. E.g: It uses / instead of \ as subdirectory (sorry folder) separators. It doesn't have a GUI (like Windows file explorer) for a UNIX shell session (not that they use anything other than TSO OMVS). You can't (easily) put spaces in file/subdirectory (sorry, folder) names. It uses a - instead of a / to introduce command options. And so on it goes. -- Wasn't there something about a PASCAL programmer knowing the value of everything and the Wirth of nothing? Maranatha! John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 07:38:03 -0600, John McKown wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 2:02 AM, Dale Miller wrote: Some have asserted that tab characters should be removed from source. However, for makefiles, according to the GNU Make Manual (for version 3.80) You need to put a tab character at the beginning of every command line. This has always struck me as lunacy, but it's an example of the IT golden rule - Who writes the software makes the rules. Yup. Not just GNU make, but z/OS UNIX make as well. I can proffer an possible reason. Remember from whence UNIX came. The original terminals were serial terminals connected via RS-232. The tab key, then as now, was close to the left pinky finger (along with the shift key). So my guess is that the original programmers were thinking: What is an easy to hit key for a field delimiter which will allow us to use any printable character in a field value. Space? No, we might want spaces in the field value (such as a user's name in the /etc/passwd file). Hum, well, there is that TAB key placed nicely for relatively easy use, if we don't need it too often. Sounds like a winner. I don't believe that hypothesis is supported by the lexical conventions of make. Merely lunacy. ..., use an SSH connection to a UNIX shell prompt. ... ... I can't use grep or awk as a TSO command to process one or some or all members of a PDS. Or even as a TSO command ... I have an EDIT macro that pipes the content of the edit buffer into an arbitrary shell command (subject to lexical restrictions of EDIT command line). Output is issued with Rexx SAY and appears (slowly) in TSO line mode. ... there appears to be no way to run a REXX program from the UDLIST display of UNIX files as you can from ISPF 3.4 for data sets. Bummer. One of the strengths of (z/OS) unix is that it's impartial with respect to scripts and executables. Rexx, shell, and program objects can all reside in the same directory and be invoked with similar syntax. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On Jan 15, 2014, at 7:38 AM, John McKown john.archie.mck...@gmail.com wrote: Not just GNU make, but z/OS UNIX make as well. I can proffer an possible reason. Remember from whence UNIX came. The original terminals were serial terminals connected via RS-232. The tab key, then as now, was close to the left pinky finger (along with the shift key). So my guess is that the original programmers were thinking: What is an easy to hit key for a field delimiter which will allow us to use any printable character in a field value. Space? No, we might want spaces in the field value (such as a user's name in the /etc/passwd file). Hum, well, there is that TAB key placed nicely for relatively easy use, if we don't need it too often. Sounds like a winner. I read once (although I can’t find a reference, and haven’t been able to craft a Google search that isn’t swamped with false positives) that the author of make quickly realized that requiring a tab character was a mistake, but he already had a large enough legacy user base that introducing a change that would break existing makefiles wouldn’t be popular. It’s not just z/OS folks who hate this, in Unix it’s also a problem because humans can’t visually distinguish a line that begins with a tab character from a line that begins with multiple spaces. -- Curtis Pew (c@its.utexas.edu) ITS Systems Core The University of Texas at Austin -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
I think we may have beaten this subject nearly to death, Charles, but I think I'd use Tab instead of tab. Check several keyboards to see what they say on the key labels. On this particular keyboard I'm using at this moment the Tab key is labeled tab (lowercase). But that's because it's an Apple keyboard, and lowercase is Apple hip. My guesstimate is the majority of keyboards with a Tab key are labeled Tab (uppercase T). If I'm correct, go with that. Probably not a big deal either way, but I'd try to match the consensus key label as best as possible. Timothy Sipples GMU VCT Architect Executive (Based in Singapore) E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Thanks. Good suggestion. Will do. FWIW my Lenovo says Tab -| Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Timothy Sipples Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 4:02 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? I think we may have beaten this subject nearly to death, Charles, but I think I'd use Tab instead of tab. Check several keyboards to see what they say on the key labels. On this particular keyboard I'm using at this moment the Tab key is labeled tab (lowercase). But that's because it's an Apple keyboard, and lowercase is Apple hip. My guesstimate is the majority of keyboards with a Tab key are labeled Tab (uppercase T). If I'm correct, go with that. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Three HP's...tab -|,tab -|,Tab -|, ISPF has a good section on Hardware vs software tabs. I go back to the program drum cards for the 029's . Nice when coding column dependent languages like COBOL and Fortran. Or data entry for column dependent input. In a message dated 1/14/2014 6:41:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, charl...@mcn.org writes: Tab -| -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Oh-oh. Two votes for tab. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Finnell Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 5:19 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Three HP's...tab -|,tab -|,Tab -|, -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Ed Finnell wrote: | Three HP's...tab -|,tab -|,Tab -| On the keyboards I use tabbing is either forward, to the right, or backward, to the left, depending upon the current status of the case modal; and the key is labelled Tab | — —| Both operations of course use the same tab settings. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Don't *think* so. Others undoubtedly know better than I. Sorry if my last reply seemed overly snotty. Thanks for your suggestion. Would be good if I had a richer output medium. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Timothy Sipples Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 12:32 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Do you get 3270 extended attributes to play with -- notably reverse video -- when WTOing? If so, that'd be darn useful. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Thanks all for your suggestions. I am going to go with tab. Yes, whatever you use, other than a rigorous escape regimen (\\ = \, \t = tab) introduces ambiguities: tab could also represent a literal ' t a b '. But this is not a diagnostic dump, this is a confirmation back to the user of what he or she specified, and the user should know whether he or she asked for a tab or a silly character string. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:19 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? On 2014-01-12, at 07:06, John Gilmore wrote: ... [HLASM advocacy redacted.] I also prefer to use 'µ', 'µµ', 'µµµ', or 'µµ...µ', one or more instances of the Greek minuscule, to display the positions of such characters. It is widely available (for use in such constructs as µsec) but even less used than '¬' or '»'. (Doing so of course brings in train a local requirement to write, say, 'microsec' instead of 'µsec'; but I have not found this onerous.) It's Whac-a-Mole; you can't win. Whatever character you use to represent TAB (e.g. ⇥) becomes itself inaccessible. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
In d91559ad-3ca0-4033-a2d6-a6c34ad4f...@comcast.net, on 01/10/2014 at 10:45 PM, Ed Gould edgould1...@comcast.net said: Somewhere in the far reaches of my memory there was a ZAP to tso EDIT that worked eg:Label(tab char) br tabchar R15 Why a zap? What is TABSET, chopped liver? SCRIPT was another application that supported tabs. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
In of0fb78386.d971c375-on88257c5c.00788311-88257c5c.007a9...@sce.com, on 01/10/2014 at 02:19 PM, Skip Robinson jo.skip.robin...@sce.com said: To evaluate the existence of an EBCDIC tab character, let's take the total number of instances in which any member of this list has ever in their career had occasion to code X'05'in a z/OS file for any functional purpose whatever. The degree of usage is irrelevant. If that quotient would suffice to persuade Virginia Virginia is irrelevant. The facts remain that PoOps and the reference cards list '05'X as HT. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
For those who don't remember AFP there was a DCF Translate x'05' x'15' to get tabbing on AFP printers. Hmm or was it the other way? Wish I'd kept the source. In a message dated 1/13/2014 6:46:23 A.M. Central Standard Time, shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net writes: in their career had occasion to code X'05'in a z/OS file for any functional purpose whatever. The degree of usage is irrelevant. If that quotient would suffice to persuade Virginia Virginia is irrelevant. The facts remain that PoOps and the reference cards list '05'X as HT. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
I didn't read the question but the answer is ... g Output is the response to a z/OS console display command. Did Unicode support for WTO make into z/OS V2R1? Charles Composed on a mobile: please excuse my brevity Timothy Sipples sipp...@sg.ibm.com wrote: There's a tab symbol glyph at Unicode point U+21E5. It's a glyph consisting of a rightwards arrow to a bar. Many keyboards with a Tab key include this symbol as part of the key label. More information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_(symbol) I missed the first part of the question so I'm not sure where/how this symbol will be displayed, but I'd display that one if possible. That'd be my #1 choice. Failing that, there's a negation symbol (¬) which is arguably a stylized/abstract version of that tab symbol. That's at code point 95 in EBCDIC code page 37, for example. A double closing guillemet (») is another possibility. You can find that at code point 139 in EBCDIC code page 1047, for example. If these symbols are sufficiently rare/nonexistent within the context of the information you're presenting you can probably get away with them, though I like the idea of a footnote. Does anyone remember what DisplayWrite/370 uses to illustrate an embedded tab (if anything)? It might be the double closing guillemet or negation symbol, but perhaps my recollection is mistaken. There was some convention here that IBM adopted in its various office systems products, but I just don't remember it since it was a bit before my time. I think it might have been the » symbol, though. An older IBM CUA publication might provide some guidance. Timothy Sipples GMU VCT Architect Executive (Based in Singapore) E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
The IBM HLASM supports a builtin function called BYTE that permits an arbitrary character to be defined and introduced into assembled text. It is 'generic' so that, for example |nul setc BYTE(0) --nul character, x'00' |nul setc BYTE(x'00') --nul character are equivalent/interchangeable in use. For my own purposes I have implemented three other BIFs, o BYTES2, o BYTES3, and o BYTESM for defining two-, three- and multiple-byte 'characters'. They too are 'generic' in the sense that they accept both binary-arithmetic and hexadecimal-string arguments. I also prefer to use 'µ', 'µµ', 'µµµ', or 'µµ...µ', one or more instances of the Greek minuscule, to display the positions of such characters. It is widely available (for use in such constructs as µsec) but even less used than '¬' or '»'. (Doing so of course brings in train a local requirement to write, say, 'microsec' instead of 'µsec'; but I have not found this onerous.) John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On 2014-01-12, at 07:06, John Gilmore wrote: ... [HLASM advocacy redacted.] I also prefer to use 'µ', 'µµ', 'µµµ', or 'µµ...µ', one or more instances of the Greek minuscule, to display the positions of such characters. It is widely available (for use in such constructs as µsec) but even less used than '¬' or '»'. (Doing so of course brings in train a local requirement to write, say, 'microsec' instead of 'µsec'; but I have not found this onerous.) It's Whac-a-Mole; you can't win. Whatever character you use to represent TAB (e.g. ⇥) becomes itself inaccessible. And I need to Reply to this via email. Using the Web Reply function, your 'µ' gets sliced and diced. *Daarrennn!* (I know; it's Eric Thomas, not Darren. But he could pass the word.) -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
In 03f701cf0e3c$d1a371d0$74ea5570$@mcn.org, on 01/10/2014 at 11:47 AM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org said: MS Word would say FOO^tBAR. Have you reported the bug? That should be FOO^9BAR. Parm2=FOOtabBAR I'd go with that. Parm2=FOO^tBAR That would be flat wrong. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
In ofe902f58f.ddd660b4-on88257c5c.006d8c43-88257c5c.006e4...@sce.com, on 01/10/2014 at 12:04 PM, Skip Robinson jo.skip.robin...@sce.com said: An intriguing question in view of the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set. What absence? HT is and always has been '05'X. VT is '0B'X. but even if I could somehow type a tab character into an MVS file, what would z/OS do with it? Nothing. An application might do something. Now, if you used the HT in an operator command, in a JCL statement or the like, than the answer would depend on where it was. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
In 043101cf0e4c$7944d050$6bce70f0$@mcn.org, on 01/10/2014 at 01:39 PM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org said: Both my aging Yellow Card Yello? That's the new card. HT should be on the older green card as well. And, in fact, it is: thank you, bitsavers. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
In 044601cf0e4d$b4be3a30$1e3aae90$@mcn.org, on 01/10/2014 at 01:48 PM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org said: It occurs to me that what may be meant is the absence of control-character-based formatting in mainframe usage. On UNIX and Windows systems, fields are often delimited by tabs Making the files a RPITA to edit. records very often delimited by some combination of CR and/or LF. For Unix it's generally LF; other systems use CRLF and CR. and the pagination controlled with characters that do not correspond to the nominal EBCDIC control characters. What's wrong with '06'X (FF)? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Do you get 3270 extended attributes to play with -- notably reverse video -- when WTOing? If so, that'd be darn useful. Timothy Sipples GMU VCT Architect Executive (Based in Singapore) E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
There's a tab symbol glyph at Unicode point U+21E5. It's a glyph consisting of a rightwards arrow to a bar. Many keyboards with a Tab key include this symbol as part of the key label. More information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_(symbol) I missed the first part of the question so I'm not sure where/how this symbol will be displayed, but I'd display that one if possible. That'd be my #1 choice. Failing that, there's a negation symbol (¬) which is arguably a stylized/abstract version of that tab symbol. That's at code point 95 in EBCDIC code page 37, for example. A double closing guillemet (») is another possibility. You can find that at code point 139 in EBCDIC code page 1047, for example. If these symbols are sufficiently rare/nonexistent within the context of the information you're presenting you can probably get away with them, though I like the idea of a footnote. Does anyone remember what DisplayWrite/370 uses to illustrate an embedded tab (if anything)? It might be the double closing guillemet or negation symbol, but perhaps my recollection is mistaken. There was some convention here that IBM adopted in its various office systems products, but I just don't remember it since it was a bit before my time. I think it might have been the » symbol, though. An older IBM CUA publication might provide some guidance. Timothy Sipples GMU VCT Architect Executive (Based in Singapore) E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
I have a started task that (among many other things) will display its own parameters, something like Parm1=WIDGET Parm2=FOOBAR At present all of the values it displays are printable characters. Due to an enhancement it is possible that one of the parameters will contain a horizontal tab character. A C programmer would expect the display to become Parm2=FOO\tBAR. MS Word would say FOO^tBAR. But those of you who are real mainframers through and through, how would you expect a tab to be represented in a display? The value is going to be all printable characters 99% of the time so going to hex and character is probably a clumsy approach. Parm2=FOOtabBAR Parm2=FOO\tBAR Parm2=FOO^tBAR Or what? Thanks, Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
An intriguing question in view of the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set. My emulator (Vista3270) is pretty rich, but even if I could somehow type a tab character into an MVS file, what would z/OS do with it? As to your question, I would prefer Parm2=FOOtabBAR because any single character representation would mislead the reader into typing *that* character. Like the old joke about not finding the any key. . . JO.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 626-302-7535 Office 323-715-0595 Mobile jo.skip.robin...@sce.com From: Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU, Date: 01/10/2014 11:48 AM Subject:Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU I have a started task that (among many other things) will display its own parameters, something like Parm1=WIDGET Parm2=FOOBAR At present all of the values it displays are printable characters. Due to an enhancement it is possible that one of the parameters will contain a horizontal tab character. A C programmer would expect the display to become Parm2=FOO\tBAR. MS Word would say FOO^tBAR. But those of you who are real mainframers through and through, how would you expect a tab to be represented in a display? The value is going to be all printable characters 99% of the time so going to hex and character is probably a clumsy approach. Parm2=FOOtabBAR Parm2=FOO\tBAR Parm2=FOO^tBAR Or what? Thanks, Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:04:48 -0800, Skip Robinson wrote: An intriguing question in view of the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set. ??? Isn't 0x05 TAB in all EBCDIC code pages. My emulator (Vista3270) is pretty rich, but even if I could somehow type a tab character into an MVS file, what would z/OS do with it? As to your question, I would prefer Parm2=FOOtabBAR because any single character representation would mislead the reader into typing *that* character. Like the old joke about not finding the any key. I once proposed that an editor, such as ISPF, with NULLS ON should fill all the cells tabbed over with NULs, and a Field Mark (used to be a key on real 327x) in the final position. Users could then type over the nulls, and insert text earlier with much of the WYSIWYG behavior of other nulls-savvy editors. A counter argument given was that many emulators fail to implement the standard behavior of nulls. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On 1/10/2014 1:17 PM, John Gilmore wrote: I use the broken-bracket convention, viz., nul, when I need to display a nul, x'00' in both ASCII and EBCDIC. We use this convention in our documentation when describing any keyboard key. Example: Type your password into the appropriate field and press Enter. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Thanks. One vote for tab. Anyone else? the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set Both my aging Yellow Card and Wikipedia list X'05' as the EBCDIC HT character. What to do with it? The program builds a message -- in EBCDIC, because most of the input and the convenient library routines are all EBCDIC -- which is then translated to (shudder) UTF-8 or ASCII and sent to a little white box somewhere. One particular version of little white box wants ASCII HT (X'09') as a field delimiter, and the easiest way to get it there is to stick it between fields in the EBCDIC message as it is being built. What to use as a field delimiter is a parameter, hence the presence in a parameter display. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Skip Robinson Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 12:05 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? An intriguing question in view of the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set. My emulator (Vista3270) is pretty rich, but even if I could somehow type a tab character into an MVS file, what would z/OS do with it? As to your question, I would prefer Parm2=FOOtabBAR because any single character representation would mislead the reader into typing *that* character. Like the old joke about not finding the any key. . . JO.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 626-302-7535 Office 323-715-0595 Mobile jo.skip.robin...@sce.com From: Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU, Date: 01/10/2014 11:48 AM Subject:Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU I have a started task that (among many other things) will display its own parameters, something like Parm1=WIDGET Parm2=FOOBAR At present all of the values it displays are printable characters. Due to an enhancement it is possible that one of the parameters will contain a horizontal tab character. A C programmer would expect the display to become Parm2=FOO\tBAR. MS Word would say FOO^tBAR. But those of you who are real mainframers through and through, how would you expect a tab to be represented in a display? The value is going to be all printable characters 99% of the time so going to hex and character is probably a clumsy approach. Parm2=FOOtabBAR Parm2=FOO\tBAR Parm2=FOO^tBAR Or what? Thanks, Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set It occurs to me that what may be meant is the absence of control-character-based formatting in mainframe usage. On UNIX and Windows systems, fields are often delimited by tabs and records very often delimited by some combination of CR and/or LF. Page formatting is often done with embedded control characters. On the mainframe, fields are typically fixed length or of some indicated length, and records are fixed length or described by control words. Reports are formatted with blanks between fields, and the pagination controlled with characters that do not correspond to the nominal EBCDIC control characters. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Skip Robinson Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 12:05 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? An intriguing question in view of the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set. My emulator (Vista3270) is pretty rich, but even if I could somehow type a tab character into an MVS file, what would z/OS do with it? As to your question, I would prefer Parm2=FOOtabBAR because any single character representation would mislead the reader into typing *that* character. Like the old joke about not finding the any key. . . JO.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 626-302-7535 Office 323-715-0595 Mobile jo.skip.robin...@sce.com From: Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU, Date: 01/10/2014 11:48 AM Subject:Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU I have a started task that (among many other things) will display its own parameters, something like Parm1=WIDGET Parm2=FOOBAR At present all of the values it displays are printable characters. Due to an enhancement it is possible that one of the parameters will contain a horizontal tab character. A C programmer would expect the display to become Parm2=FOO\tBAR. MS Word would say FOO^tBAR. But those of you who are real mainframers through and through, how would you expect a tab to be represented in a display? The value is going to be all printable characters 99% of the time so going to hex and character is probably a clumsy approach. Parm2=FOOtabBAR Parm2=FOO\tBAR Parm2=FOO^tBAR Or what? Thanks, Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On 2014-01-10 14:47, Charles Mills wrote: I have a started task that (among many other things) will display its own parameters, something like Parm1=WIDGET Parm2=FOOBAR At present all of the values it displays are printable characters. Due to an enhancement it is possible that one of the parameters will contain a horizontal tab character. A C programmer would expect the display to become Parm2=FOO\tBAR. MS Word would say FOO^tBAR. But those of you who are real mainframers through and through, how would you expect a tab to be represented in a display? The value is going to be all printable characters 99% of the time so going to hex and character is probably a clumsy approach. Parm2=FOOtabBAR Parm2=FOO\tBAR Parm2=FOO^tBAR Or what? Thanks, Charles It appears to me that you are mixing the display of parameter values containing tab characters with the methods used to input tab characters in various languages and tools. A C programmer does not expect to see \t in a program's output. He/she expects to see white space until the next tab stop. Similarly, the author of a Word document expects the tab character to be represented as white space until the next tab stop. In other words, a tab character shouldn't appear in a display at all. However, I understand that you are trying to display the inputs to the program, presumably for diagnostic purposes. If you want to display the parameter input exactly as provided by the user, then you might want to show the parameters in dump format (both character and hexadecimal) and not attempt to convert the tab character to some other representation. -- Regards, Gord Tomlin Action Software International (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation) Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
To evaluate the existence of an EBCDIC tab character, let's take the total number of instances in which any member of this list has ever in their career had occasion to code X'05'in a z/OS file for any functional purpose whatever. (For me, that's +0). Then divide that value by the cumulative years of experience among all the members of this list. (For me, that's a nontrivial number.) If that quotient would suffice to persuade Virginia that yes, there is an EBCDIC tab character, then I will cave. Otherwise I stand by my assertion. . . JO.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 626-302-7535 Office 323-715-0595 Mobile jo.skip.robin...@sce.com From: Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU, Date: 01/10/2014 01:49 PM Subject:Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set It occurs to me that what may be meant is the absence of control-character-based formatting in mainframe usage. On UNIX and Windows systems, fields are often delimited by tabs and records very often delimited by some combination of CR and/or LF. Page formatting is often done with embedded control characters. On the mainframe, fields are typically fixed length or of some indicated length, and records are fixed length or described by control words. Reports are formatted with blanks between fields, and the pagination controlled with characters that do not correspond to the nominal EBCDIC control characters. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Skip Robinson Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 12:05 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? An intriguing question in view of the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set. My emulator (Vista3270) is pretty rich, but even if I could somehow type a tab character into an MVS file, what would z/OS do with it? As to your question, I would prefer Parm2=FOOtabBAR because any single character representation would mislead the reader into typing *that* character. Like the old joke about not finding the any key. . . JO.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 626-302-7535 Office 323-715-0595 Mobile jo.skip.robin...@sce.com From: Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU, Date: 01/10/2014 11:48 AM Subject:Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU I have a started task that (among many other things) will display its own parameters, something like Parm1=WIDGET Parm2=FOOBAR At present all of the values it displays are printable characters. Due to an enhancement it is possible that one of the parameters will contain a horizontal tab character. A C programmer would expect the display to become Parm2=FOO\tBAR. MS Word would say FOO^tBAR. But those of you who are real mainframers through and through, how would you expect a tab to be represented in a display? The value is going to be all printable characters 99% of the time so going to hex and character is probably a clumsy approach. Parm2=FOOtabBAR Parm2=FOO\tBAR Parm2=FOO^tBAR Or what? Thanks, Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On 1/10/2014 2:19 PM, Skip Robinson wrote: To evaluate the existence of an EBCDIC tab character, let's take the total number of instances in which any member of this list has ever in their career had occasion to code X'05'in a z/OS file for any functional purpose whatever. (For me, that's +0). Then divide that value by the cumulative years of experience among all the members of this list. (For me, that's a nontrivial number.) I remember tab characters being required when when configuring some z/OS UNIX configuration files, such as those used for bind or sendmail. I probably typed in a couple/few of dozen of them at one point in time or ~1 per year of total mainframe experience. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On 11/01/2014 09:19 AM, Skip Robinson wrote: To evaluate the existence of an EBCDIC tab character, let's take the total number of instances in which any member of this list has ever in their career had occasion to code X'05'in a z/OS file for any functional purpose whatever. (For me, that's +0). Then divide that value by the cumulative years of experience among all the members of this list. (For me, that's a nontrivial number.) If that quotient would suffice to persuade Virginia that yes, there is an EBCDIC tab character, then I will cave. Otherwise I stand by my assertion. Going off on a tangent any one who ever coded up a 3270 screen using the 3270 attributes etc. will have probably coded many TAB characters. Bing well over40 years since I last codes a 3270 screen have forgotten the varios attribute characters but if you can finf the 3270 datastrean reference book thwn all would be revealed. -- Ken Mob: 0409 009 764 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Well Skip, the quotient is not zero. I use x'05' quite regularly when creating a file that will become TXT then Excel. My favorite is writing a record with DF/SORT: OUTFIL OUTREC=(01,10,X'05',11,10,X'05')etc etc So that's a few hundred occurrences over lots of my years which bears out your math, but maybe a few others here have done something similar. On 1/10/2014 4:19 PM, Skip Robinson wrote: To evaluate the existence of an EBCDIC tab character, let's take the total number of instances in which any member of this list has ever in their career had occasion to code X'05'in a z/OS file for any functional purpose whatever. (For me, that's +0). Then divide that value by the cumulative years of experience among all the members of this list. (For me, that's a nontrivial number.) If that quotient would suffice to persuade Virginia that yes, there is an EBCDIC tab character, then I will cave. Otherwise I stand by my assertion. . . JO.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 626-302-7535 Office 323-715-0595 Mobile jo.skip.robin...@sce.com From: Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU, Date: 01/10/2014 01:49 PM Subject:Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set It occurs to me that what may be meant is the absence of control-character-based formatting in mainframe usage. On UNIX and Windows systems, fields are often delimited by tabs and records very often delimited by some combination of CR and/or LF. Page formatting is often done with embedded control characters. On the mainframe, fields are typically fixed length or of some indicated length, and records are fixed length or described by control words. Reports are formatted with blanks between fields, and the pagination controlled with characters that do not correspond to the nominal EBCDIC control characters. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Skip Robinson Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 12:05 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? An intriguing question in view of the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set. My emulator (Vista3270) is pretty rich, but even if I could somehow type a tab character into an MVS file, what would z/OS do with it? As to your question, I would prefer Parm2=FOOtabBAR because any single character representation would mislead the reader into typing *that* character. Like the old joke about not finding the any key. . . JO.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 626-302-7535 Office 323-715-0595 Mobile jo.skip.robin...@sce.com From: Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU, Date: 01/10/2014 11:48 AM Subject:Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU I have a started task that (among many other things) will display its own parameters, something like Parm1=WIDGET Parm2=FOOBAR At present all of the values it displays are printable characters. Due to an enhancement it is possible that one of the parameters will contain a horizontal tab character. A C programmer would expect the display to become Parm2=FOO\tBAR. MS Word would say FOO^tBAR. But those of you who are real mainframers through and through, how would you expect a tab to be represented in a display? The value is going to be all printable characters 99% of the time so going to hex and character is probably a clumsy approach. Parm2=FOOtabBAR Parm2=FOO\tBAR Parm2=FOO^tBAR Or what? Thanks, Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Most MVS or z/OS programs expect commas between parameters, or blanks. But if this is a z/Unix program, the tab probably would be expected. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Gord Tomlin gt.ibm.li...@actionsoftware.com wrote: On 2014-01-10 14:47, Charles Mills wrote: I have a started task that (among many other things) will display its own parameters, something like Parm1=WIDGET Parm2=FOOBAR At present all of the values it displays are printable characters. Due to an enhancement it is possible that one of the parameters will contain a horizontal tab character. A C programmer would expect the display to become Parm2=FOO\tBAR. MS Word would say FOO^tBAR. But those of you who are real mainframers through and through, how would you expect a tab to be represented in a display? The value is going to be all printable characters 99% of the time so going to hex and character is probably a clumsy approach. Parm2=FOOtabBAR Parm2=FOO\tBAR Parm2=FOO^tBAR Or what? Thanks, Charles It appears to me that you are mixing the display of parameter values containing tab characters with the methods used to input tab characters in various languages and tools. A C programmer does not expect to see \t in a program's output. He/she expects to see white space until the next tab stop. Similarly, the author of a Word document expects the tab character to be represented as white space until the next tab stop. In other words, a tab character shouldn't appear in a display at all. However, I understand that you are trying to display the inputs to the program, presumably for diagnostic purposes. If you want to display the parameter input exactly as provided by the user, then you might want to show the parameters in dump format (both character and hexadecimal) and not attempt to convert the tab character to some other representation. -- Regards, Gord Tomlin Action Software International (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation) Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Just to reiterate before this thread drifts away: Classic MVS, not z/UNIX, and this is not a delimiter in a parameter file, this is for a display (note the subject line). How do you signify a tab character inside a displayed otherwise alphanumeric value? I suppose that begs the question how then *will* the user *specify* a tab? and that is indeed a good question that I have not yet answered. At this point, the only way that this parameter becomes a tab is through a meta parameter that will set a bunch of other options. The customer will specify PARMX(SET1) and that will imply Parm1=This Parm2=That Parm3=FootabBar I am going to have to solve the specify problem at some point. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mike Schwab Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 3:15 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Most MVS or z/OS programs expect commas between parameters, or blanks. But if this is a z/Unix program, the tab probably would be expected. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:24:08 -0800, Ed Jaffe wrote: On 1/10/2014 1:17 PM, John Gilmore wrote: I use the broken-bracket convention, viz., nul, when I need to display a nul, x'00' in both ASCII and EBCDIC. We use this convention in our documentation when describing any keyboard key. Example: Type your password into the appropriate field and press Enter. I too would vote thus - usually I prefer \t (with or without quotes), but in our world anyone who has passed parms into (non-legacy) batch may be misled. Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
In Basic, a tab stop occurs every 8 characters, with a minimum of 1 blank displayed. If the tab occurs 1-7, blanks to 8, next character in 9. If the tab occurs 8-15, blanks to 16, next character in 17. Blanks to 24, 32, 40. Blanks to 48, 56, 64, 72, 80. Blanks to 88, 96, 104, 112, 120. Blanks to 128, 136, 144, 152, 160. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org wrote: Just to reiterate before this thread drifts away: Classic MVS, not z/UNIX, and this is not a delimiter in a parameter file, this is for a display (note the subject line). How do you signify a tab character inside a displayed otherwise alphanumeric value? I suppose that begs the question how then *will* the user *specify* a tab? and that is indeed a good question that I have not yet answered. At this point, the only way that this parameter becomes a tab is through a meta parameter that will set a bunch of other options. The customer will specify PARMX(SET1) and that will imply Parm1=This Parm2=That Parm3=FootabBar I am going to have to solve the specify problem at some point. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mike Schwab Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 3:15 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Most MVS or z/OS programs expect commas between parameters, or blanks. But if this is a z/Unix program, the tab probably would be expected. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Passed parms? Is that like the cannibal who passed his friend in the woods? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shane Ginnane Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 4:52 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:24:08 -0800, Ed Jaffe wrote: On 1/10/2014 1:17 PM, John Gilmore wrote: I use the broken-bracket convention, viz., nul, when I need to display a nul, x'00' in both ASCII and EBCDIC. We use this convention in our documentation when describing any keyboard key. Example: Type your password into the appropriate field and press Enter. I too would vote thus - usually I prefer \t (with or without quotes), but in our world anyone who has passed parms into (non-legacy) batch may be misled. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
On 10 January 2014 20:09, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org wrote: Passed parms? Is that like the cannibal who passed his friend in the woods? All the wines in this establishment have been personally passed by the proprietor. Tony H. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
Skip: Interesting question. I think it depends. Somewhere in the far reaches of my memory there was a ZAP to tso EDIT that worked eg:Label(tab char) br tabchar R15 and it worked (now it might have been an FSE command I just don't remember) . But you are right in the overall question I believe. Ed On Jan 10, 2014, at 2:04 PM, Skip Robinson wrote: An intriguing question in view of the absence of tabs in the conventional EBCDIC character set. My emulator (Vista3270) is pretty rich, but even if I could somehow type a tab character into an MVS file, what would z/ OS do with it? As to your question, I would prefer Parm2=FOOtabBAR because any single character representation would mislead the reader into typing *that* character. Like the old joke about not finding the any key. . . JO.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 626-302-7535 Office 323-715-0595 Mobile jo.skip.robin...@sce.com From: Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU, Date: 01/10/2014 11:48 AM Subject:Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character? Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM- m...@listserv.ua.edu I have a started task that (among many other things) will display its own parameters, something like Parm1=WIDGET Parm2=FOOBAR At present all of the values it displays are printable characters. Due to an enhancement it is possible that one of the parameters will contain a horizontal tab character. A C programmer would expect the display to become Parm2=FOO\tBAR. MS Word would say FOO^tBAR. But those of you who are real mainframers through and through, how would you expect a tab to be represented in a display? The value is going to be all printable characters 99% of the time so going to hex and character is probably a clumsy approach. Parm2=FOOtabBAR Parm2=FOO\tBAR Parm2=FOO^tBAR Or what? Thanks, Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab character?
At 16:17 -0800 on 01/10/2014, Charles Mills wrote about Re: Mainframe culture question - how display a tab charac: Just to reiterate before this thread drifts away: Classic MVS, not z/UNIX, and this is not a delimiter in a parameter file, this is for a display (note the subject line). How do you signify a tab character inside a displayed otherwise alphanumeric value? I was wondering if anyone would point out that the original request was for how to indicate in a display of the parm that it contains a tab - IOW: What glyph or string to use. The thread has drifted to the question of what to use as the tab in the actual parm (the answer being x05 the EBCDIC tab character). You can also use a character in the display that is not a valid character which can appear in the parm (ie: Something other than A-Z, a-z, and 0-9 such as the slash /, back-slash \, or greater-than symbol [which has the advantage of indicating the move to the right result of the tab]) or the suggested tab string. I suppose that begs the question how then *will* the user *specify* a tab? and that is indeed a good question that I have not yet answered. At this point, the only way that this parameter becomes a tab is through a meta parameter that will set a bunch of other options. The customer will specify PARMX(SET1) and that will imply Parm1=This Parm2=That Parm3=FootabBar I am going to have to solve the specify problem at some point. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
