Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity
On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 12:12:29 +, Peter Relson wrote: > ... >PL/X does have the concept of a variable-length string (with the length being >in a separate variable, or in a preceding halfword). > PostScript has a fairly opaque "substring" with at lest 3 components: o the string body o the amount of storage in use o the amount of storage allocated. That last allows dyadic copy and concatenate operators without overrun hazard. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity
You omitted C++, which has std:string which does know how long strings are. C++11 is a game changer and makes C++ way more usable. Sadly, C++11 is still not quite fully available AFAIK for XLC++. Kirk Wolf Dovetailed Technologies http:// <http://dovetail.com>coztoolkit.com On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, at 8:22 AM, Eric D Rossman wrote: > In the very first message with this new subject line, Clem Clarke said "We > know that C searches for a byte with a binary zero to find how long a string > is." which is what I was responding to. > > PL/X is good for many things. C is good for many things. So are Java, and > Python and Go and Rust, etc. I'm fluent in many languages and none of them is > right for every use. Heck, even REXX is great for quick API testing. > > PL/X and C (and arguably assembler) are not the best at higher level > interfaces mostly because they were not designed for that, but they excel at > OS-level interfaces because they force the developer to think more concretely > (in my experience). Java and Python, on the other hand, were clearly designed > with a more abstract approach which leads to better UI. > > To my original point, even if IBM had released it many years ago, I don't > know if PL/X would be dominating. > > Eric Rossman > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Peter Relson > Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2023 8:12 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world > and cut CPU Cycles and electricity > > > PL/X, on the average, is not really better than C in terms of what you > describe except when the string's length is known in advance (which is hard > or impossible in many circumstances > > I didn't see stated in any post on this topic the explicit mention of > zero-delimited strings. That is what the discussion seems to be talking > about. Not all "character areas" are zero-delimited. PL/X has no support for > a zero-delimited string. When z/OS interfaces are used within C, there are > rarely (if ever) zero-delimited strings. A C program could/would use MEMCPY > to copy a string for which the length is known. And there are analogs of that > for "compare". That makes it a less natural language construct within C than > a zero-delimited string. > > PL/X does have the concept of a variable-length string (with the length being > in a separate variable, or in a preceding halfword). > > Manipulation of a variable-length string is going to be very different than > manipulation of a zero-delimited string. > > Peter Relson > z/OS Core Technology Design > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to > lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity
In the very first message with this new subject line, Clem Clarke said "We know that C searches for a byte with a binary zero to find how long a string is." which is what I was responding to. PL/X is good for many things. C is good for many things. So are Java, and Python and Go and Rust, etc. I'm fluent in many languages and none of them is right for every use. Heck, even REXX is great for quick API testing. PL/X and C (and arguably assembler) are not the best at higher level interfaces mostly because they were not designed for that, but they excel at OS-level interfaces because they force the developer to think more concretely (in my experience). Java and Python, on the other hand, were clearly designed with a more abstract approach which leads to better UI. To my original point, even if IBM had released it many years ago, I don't know if PL/X would be dominating. Eric Rossman -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Peter Relson Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2023 8:12 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity PL/X, on the average, is not really better than C in terms of what you describe except when the string's length is known in advance (which is hard or impossible in many circumstances I didn't see stated in any post on this topic the explicit mention of zero-delimited strings. That is what the discussion seems to be talking about. Not all "character areas" are zero-delimited. PL/X has no support for a zero-delimited string. When z/OS interfaces are used within C, there are rarely (if ever) zero-delimited strings. A C program could/would use MEMCPY to copy a string for which the length is known. And there are analogs of that for "compare". That makes it a less natural language construct within C than a zero-delimited string. PL/X does have the concept of a variable-length string (with the length being in a separate variable, or in a preceding halfword). Manipulation of a variable-length string is going to be very different than manipulation of a zero-delimited string. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity
PL/X, on the average, is not really better than C in terms of what you describe except when the string's length is known in advance (which is hard or impossible in many circumstances I didn't see stated in any post on this topic the explicit mention of zero-delimited strings. That is what the discussion seems to be talking about. Not all "character areas" are zero-delimited. PL/X has no support for a zero-delimited string. When z/OS interfaces are used within C, there are rarely (if ever) zero-delimited strings. A C program could/would use MEMCPY to copy a string for which the length is known. And there are analogs of that for "compare". That makes it a less natural language construct within C than a zero-delimited string. PL/X does have the concept of a variable-length string (with the length being in a separate variable, or in a preceding halfword). Manipulation of a variable-length string is going to be very different than manipulation of a zero-delimited string. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity
I would say that "inertia" is PL/X's raison d'etre (even though that statement is probably controversial within the internal IBM Z development community). I will acknowledge that PL/X is excellent at integrating HLASM code. GCC style inlining isn't terrible for including HLASM code but it is more painful. I think the reason that PL/X was initially used is because it was the best we had at the time. The reason it is STILL used is because it's too dangerous/difficult to switch. I really don't know why it was never truly externalized (that decision predates my time at IBM) but I could speculate that someone thought it gave IBM some competitive advantage. I don't see it that way, but again, just speculation. Eric Rossman -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Kirk Wolf Sent: Monday, October 2, 2023 2:55 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity Eric, I'm curious - wouldn't you say that PL/X integration with assembler and assembler macros is it's raison d'etre? Even though I've done all sorts of integration of assembler with C/C++ (the GCC-style inlining, xplink assembler leaf routines, EDCDSECT conversion of DSECTs, etc, etc), which all work, they are still painful compared with PL/X and assembler. Kirk Wolf Dovetailed Technologies http:// <http://dovetail.com >coztoolkit.com On Mon, Oct 2, 2023, at 12:02 PM, Eric D Rossman wrote: > I write PL/X daily. PL/X, on the average, is not really better than C > in terms of what you describe except when the string's length is known > in advance (which is hard or impossible in many circumstances > > Don't get me wrong, it has a number of strengths as compared to C, but it > also is too close to "the metal" in some ways which would hamper it. > > As for copying byte at a time, that is not a function of C (i.e. not > specified in the standard). It's usually a function of the complier > (sometimes deferred to the runtime libraries) and many of them can use > benefits of the instructions built into the hardware to speed things up as > well as general purpose things like copying DWORDs at a time with small > unrolled loops on either end to handle "extra" > > Eric Rossman > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Clem Clarke > Sent: Monday, October 2, 2023 9:03 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save > the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity > > What would it take for IBM to Open Source the Windows and Linux version of > PL/I and PL/X? > > Why? To potentially make the Internet faster and safer. How? > > We know that C searches for a byte with a binary zero to find how long a > string is. This takes time. And then it take time to copy a string > elsewhere, especially if it is done a byte at a time (often true, depending > on the C compiler - some do a word at a time). > > PL/I, Pascal and even Assembler know how long a string is. They don't have > to waste cycle looking for the length of a string. Most of the time, they > know how long the receiving string is, and won't go past the end, as C will. > > IBM still has the "authority" to do this. And it morally should. > > Just do it, IBM. Help save the planet. > > Clem Clarke > > > > > > Wayne Bickerdike wrote: > > So many acronyms. > > I've Been Married > > I've Been Moved > > It's Better Manual > > I Broke Microcode > > > > etc.. > > > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:17 AM David Spiegel < > > 0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > > >> Hi Peter, > >> I was generalizing the problem. Allowing access to PL/ wouyld > >> also solve the lack of PDFs. > >> > >> This reminds me of a joke. > >> Q: What does IBM Stand for? > >> A: Ich Bin M'shugoh > >> > >> Regards, > >> David > >> > >> On 2023-09-30 08:18, Peter Relson wrote: > >>>> There is another solution > >>> What are you thinking the "problem" is for which you mention a > >> "solution"? The first post I saw was asking about PDF's, not about > >> access to PL/X. Was there a post that did not show up in the daily > >> digest? The "access-to-PL/X ship" sailed long ago. > >>> Peter Relson > >>> z/OS Core Technology Design > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> -- > >>
Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity
Eric, I'm curious - wouldn't you say that PL/X integration with assembler and assembler macros is it's raison d'etre? Even though I've done all sorts of integration of assembler with C/C++ (the GCC-style inlining, xplink assembler leaf routines, EDCDSECT conversion of DSECTs, etc, etc), which all work, they are still painful compared with PL/X and assembler. Kirk Wolf Dovetailed Technologies http:// <http://dovetail.com>coztoolkit.com On Mon, Oct 2, 2023, at 12:02 PM, Eric D Rossman wrote: > I write PL/X daily. PL/X, on the average, is not really better than C in > terms of what you describe except when the string's length is known in > advance (which is hard or impossible in many circumstances > > Don't get me wrong, it has a number of strengths as compared to C, but it > also is too close to "the metal" in some ways which would hamper it. > > As for copying byte at a time, that is not a function of C (i.e. not > specified in the standard). It's usually a function of the complier > (sometimes deferred to the runtime libraries) and many of them can use > benefits of the instructions built into the hardware to speed things up as > well as general purpose things like copying DWORDs at a time with small > unrolled loops on either end to handle "extra" > > Eric Rossman > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Clem Clarke > Sent: Monday, October 2, 2023 9:03 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world > and cut CPU Cycles and electricity > > What would it take for IBM to Open Source the Windows and Linux version of > PL/I and PL/X? > > Why? To potentially make the Internet faster and safer. How? > > We know that C searches for a byte with a binary zero to find how long a > string is. This takes time. And then it take time to copy a string > elsewhere, especially if it is done a byte at a time (often true, depending > on the C compiler - some do a word at a time). > > PL/I, Pascal and even Assembler know how long a string is. They don't have > to waste cycle looking for the length of a string. Most of the time, they > know how long the receiving string is, and won't go past the end, as C will. > > IBM still has the "authority" to do this. And it morally should. > > Just do it, IBM. Help save the planet. > > Clem Clarke > > > > > > Wayne Bickerdike wrote: > > So many acronyms. > > I've Been Married > > I've Been Moved > > It's Better Manual > > I Broke Microcode > > > > etc.. > > > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:17 AM David Spiegel < > > 0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > > >> Hi Peter, > >> I was generalizing the problem. Allowing access to PL/ wouyld > >> also solve the lack of PDFs. > >> > >> This reminds me of a joke. > >> Q: What does IBM Stand for? > >> A: Ich Bin M'shugoh > >> > >> Regards, > >> David > >> > >> On 2023-09-30 08:18, Peter Relson wrote: > >>>> There is another solution > >>> What are you thinking the "problem" is for which you mention a > >> "solution"? The first post I saw was asking about PDF's, not about > >> access to PL/X. Was there a post that did not show up in the daily > >> digest? The "access-to-PL/X ship" sailed long ago. > >>> Peter Relson > >>> z/OS Core Technology Design > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO > >>> IBM-MAIN > >> - > >> - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO > >> IBM-MAIN > >> > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to > lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity
On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 00:03:07 +1100, Clem Clarke wrote: > >PL/I, Pascal and even Assembler know how long a string is. They don't >have to waste cycle looking for the length of a string. Most of the >time, they know how long the receiving string is, and won't go past the >end, as C will. > Have you heard of strncpy(), etc.? How does "Assembler know how long a string is"? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity
I write PL/X daily. PL/X, on the average, is not really better than C in terms of what you describe except when the string's length is known in advance (which is hard or impossible in many circumstances Don't get me wrong, it has a number of strengths as compared to C, but it also is too close to "the metal" in some ways which would hamper it. As for copying byte at a time, that is not a function of C (i.e. not specified in the standard). It's usually a function of the complier (sometimes deferred to the runtime libraries) and many of them can use benefits of the instructions built into the hardware to speed things up as well as general purpose things like copying DWORDs at a time with small unrolled loops on either end to handle "extra" Eric Rossman -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Clem Clarke Sent: Monday, October 2, 2023 9:03 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity What would it take for IBM to Open Source the Windows and Linux version of PL/I and PL/X? Why? To potentially make the Internet faster and safer. How? We know that C searches for a byte with a binary zero to find how long a string is. This takes time. And then it take time to copy a string elsewhere, especially if it is done a byte at a time (often true, depending on the C compiler - some do a word at a time). PL/I, Pascal and even Assembler know how long a string is. They don't have to waste cycle looking for the length of a string. Most of the time, they know how long the receiving string is, and won't go past the end, as C will. IBM still has the "authority" to do this. And it morally should. Just do it, IBM. Help save the planet. Clem Clarke Wayne Bickerdike wrote: > So many acronyms. > I've Been Married > I've Been Moved > It's Better Manual > I Broke Microcode > > etc.. > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:17 AM David Spiegel < > 0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >> Hi Peter, >> I was generalizing the problem. Allowing access to PL/ wouyld >> also solve the lack of PDFs. >> >> This reminds me of a joke. >> Q: What does IBM Stand for? >> A: Ich Bin M'shugoh >> >> Regards, >> David >> >> On 2023-09-30 08:18, Peter Relson wrote: >>>> There is another solution >>> What are you thinking the "problem" is for which you mention a >> "solution"? The first post I saw was asking about PDF's, not about >> access to PL/X. Was there a post that did not show up in the daily >> digest? The "access-to-PL/X ship" sailed long ago. >>> Peter Relson >>> z/OS Core Technology Design >>> >>> >>> >>> -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO >>> IBM-MAIN >> - >> - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO >> IBM-MAIN >> > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X
You are correct Peter. I just asked PDF's, no compiler.. Or even an environment to run PL/X.In past I wrote lot of PL/X programs, But I am a bit far from that moment. I was planning to refresh my skill. Only this and no more than this. :)BtwThank youDan Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Saturday, September 30, 2023, 9:18 AM, Peter Relson wrote: >There is another solution What are you thinking the "problem" is for which you mention a "solution"? The first post I saw was asking about PDF's, not about access to PL/X. Was there a post that did not show up in the daily digest? The "access-to-PL/X ship" sailed long ago. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I (off topic)
I would say "No, no exceptions". I don't mean that all companies are monsters, only that moral behavior is a feature of individual humans. If a company behaves well it's because one or more individuals within the company are making moral decisions on its behalf. This isn't a condemnation of companies. I'm just saying it's the only way it CAN be. A group is not a person and cannot have moral judgement, though its individual members may. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* ...it is not humanity in the abstract that is to be saved, but you -- you, the individual reader, John Stubbs or Janet Smith. Blessed and fortunate creature, your eyes shall behold Him and not another'sYour place in heaven will seem to be made for you and you alone, because you were made for it -- made for it stitch by stitch as a glove is made for a hand. -from "The Problem of Pain" by CS Lewis. */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Robert Prins Sent: Monday, October 2, 2023 12:40 Big companies do not have morals, with maybe some, I don't know which ones, exceptions. --- On 2023-10-02 13:03, Clem Clarke wrote: > And it morally should. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity
On 2023-10-02 13:03, Clem Clarke wrote: What would it take for IBM to Open Source the Windows and Linux version of PL/I and PL/X? Why? To potentially make the Internet faster and safer. How? It's pretty naive to think that open-sourcing PL/I will help, no C(++/#) programmer is going to switch, and even if they would consider switching, it would be more than likely to Rust, Go, Python, etc. We know that C searches for a byte with a binary zero to find how long a string is. This takes time. And then it take time to copy a string elsewhere, especially if it is done a byte at a time (often true, depending on the C compiler - some do a word at a time). Most, if not all, modern compilers on x86/AMD64 scan (at least) 4/8 bytes at a time, and it using YMM, or even ZMM registers on AMD64 it might actually scan 32, or even 64 bytes at a time, in just 2,3,4 cycles. And as for other code improvements, there is PL/I code that compiles to shorter code with the old OS V2.3.0 compiler, than with Enterprise PL/I, and factoring out the common instructions, you end up with ONLY extra instructions generated by EPLI... Go figure! And everyone knows, the fastest instructions are those that are never executed! PL/I, Pascal and even Assembler know how long a string is. They don't have to waste cycle looking for the length of a string. Most of the time, they know how long the receiving string is, and won't go past the end, as C will. > IBM still has the "authority" to do this. Even Raincode doesn't make an evaluation version of its PL/I compiler available. And it morally should. Big companies do not have morals, with maybe some, I don't know which ones, exceptions. Anyway, it never will, the best you can hope for is that someone decides to reverse-engineer VA PL/I or RDz PL/I for Windows, but that would open a whole lot of cans of worms, and although I do have a copy of Hex Rays' IDA Pro, life's way too short to even think about it. I think someone once in a very grey past disassembled the old Digital Research PL/I compiler. Just do it, IBM. Help save the planet. I'd better not reply anything to that. Robert -- Robert AH Prins robert.ah.prins(a)gmail.com The hitchhiking grandfather - https://prino.neocities.org/ Some REXX code for use on z/OS - https://prino.neocities.org/zOS/zOS-Tools.html Clem Clarke Wayne Bickerdike wrote: So many acronyms. I've Been Married I've Been Moved It's Better Manual I Broke Microcode etc.. On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:17 AM David Spiegel < 0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Peter, I was generalizing the problem. Allowing access to PL/ wouyld also solve the lack of PDFs. This reminds me of a joke. Q: What does IBM Stand for? A: Ich Bin M'shugoh Regards, David On 2023-09-30 08:18, Peter Relson wrote: There is another solution What are you thinking the "problem" is for which you mention a "solution"? The first post I saw was asking about PDF's, not about access to PL/X. Was there a post that did not show up in the daily digest? The "access-to-PL/X ship" sailed long ago. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X Open Source and PL/I - Helping to save the world and cut CPU Cycles and electricity
What would it take for IBM to Open Source the Windows and Linux version of PL/I and PL/X? Why? To potentially make the Internet faster and safer. How? We know that C searches for a byte with a binary zero to find how long a string is. This takes time. And then it take time to copy a string elsewhere, especially if it is done a byte at a time (often true, depending on the C compiler - some do a word at a time). PL/I, Pascal and even Assembler know how long a string is. They don't have to waste cycle looking for the length of a string. Most of the time, they know how long the receiving string is, and won't go past the end, as C will. IBM still has the "authority" to do this. And it morally should. Just do it, IBM. Help save the planet. Clem Clarke Wayne Bickerdike wrote: So many acronyms. I've Been Married I've Been Moved It's Better Manual I Broke Microcode etc.. On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:17 AM David Spiegel < 0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Hi Peter, I was generalizing the problem. Allowing access to PL/ wouyld also solve the lack of PDFs. This reminds me of a joke. Q: What does IBM Stand for? A: Ich Bin M'shugoh Regards, David On 2023-09-30 08:18, Peter Relson wrote: There is another solution What are you thinking the "problem" is for which you mention a "solution"? The first post I saw was asking about PDF's, not about access to PL/X. Was there a post that did not show up in the daily digest? The "access-to-PL/X ship" sailed long ago. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X
So many acronyms. I've Been Married I've Been Moved It's Better Manual I Broke Microcode etc.. On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:17 AM David Spiegel < 0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > Hi Peter, > I was generalizing the problem. Allowing access to PL/ wouyld also > solve the lack of PDFs. > > This reminds me of a joke. > Q: What does IBM Stand for? > A: Ich Bin M'shugoh > > Regards, > David > > On 2023-09-30 08:18, Peter Relson wrote: > >> There is another solution > > What are you thinking the "problem" is for which you mention a > "solution"? The first post I saw was asking about PDF's, not about access > to PL/X. Was there a post that did not show up in the daily digest? The > "access-to-PL/X ship" sailed long ago. > > > > Peter Relson > > z/OS Core Technology Design > > > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Wayne V. Bickerdike -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X
Hi Peter, I was generalizing the problem. Allowing access to PL/ wouyld also solve the lack of PDFs. This reminds me of a joke. Q: What does IBM Stand for? A: Ich Bin M'shugoh Regards, David On 2023-09-30 08:18, Peter Relson wrote: There is another solution What are you thinking the "problem" is for which you mention a "solution"? The first post I saw was asking about PDF's, not about access to PL/X. Was there a post that did not show up in the daily digest? The "access-to-PL/X ship" sailed long ago. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X
>There is another solution What are you thinking the "problem" is for which you mention a "solution"? The first post I saw was asking about PDF's, not about access to PL/X. Was there a post that did not show up in the daily digest? The "access-to-PL/X ship" sailed long ago. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Paul Gilmartin > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2023 4:26 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: PL/X > > On Fri, 29 Sep 2023 16:01:52 -0400, David Spiegel wrote: > > >Hi Peter, > >There is another solution ... make PL/ available especially to > >students/enthusiasts/hobbyists. > > > does z Xplore achieve any of that? Not at all. No PL/x is available to students on the Zxplore z/OS system. COBOL, PL/I, XLC/XLC++, HLASM, python, and a bash shell environment for Unix access. No GNU utilities, no gcc, etc. No xlclang products. > >While doing that, provide an "amateur" version of z/OS for the same > >crowd and allow *anyone* to run it on Hercules (or equivalent) on > >Intel/AMD hardware. > >It's not yet (but almost) too late to stop the Big Iron golden goose > >from dying. > >These 2 suggestions might cause a renewed interest for next generation > >mainframers. Zxplore provides some of this, though in a *very* constrained environment. Some of the "challenges" are quite educational and instructive, but you don’t get to "play around" with system-level changes, only application-level stuff (along with a few interesting devops tasks). No installing any software at all is allowed, not even python packages in a python virtual environment. Definitively NOT a vehicle for training systems programming personnel. > >(Unfortunately, however, it's 40 years too late to reverse the illogical > >OCO policy.) > > > Is the rationale to thwart users who would seek support saying, > "I made only a *little*change* in the source!" Possibly, but since most if not all of the actual PL/X code in the operating system and products is not supplied (except for some macro expansions), there is very little (likely zero) chance of that happening. > >On 2023-09-29 12:54, Peter Relson wrote: > >> Regarding PL/X documentation, wouldn't sharing such information outside of > >> IBM, in the absence of having some sort of license agreement, be "bad > >> form" (or worse)? > >> > would it be undercutting some contractual agreements or exclusive licenses? That may be more of an issue at this point, though the number of ISV's who may have licenses is probably far smaller than it once was due to vast consolidation in the ISV ranks, though I almost forgot the ISV's / outsourcers that have been hired to maintain IBM internal source. My own opinion of the root cause at this point is institutional inertia and "old think" in the IBM executive suite, quite possibly admixed with legitimate fear of bad-actor nation-states and criminal black hats. Peter This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X
On Fri, 29 Sep 2023 16:01:52 -0400, David Spiegel wrote: >Hi Peter, >There is another solution ... make PL/ available especially to >students/enthusiasts/hobbyists. > does z Xplore achieve any of that? >While doing that, provide an "amateur" version of z/OS for the same >crowd and allow *anyone* to run it on Hercules (or equivalent) on >Intel/AMD hardware. >It's not yet (but almost) too late to stop the Big Iron golden goose >from dying. >These 2 suggestions might cause a renewed interest for next generation >mainframers. > >(Unfortunately, however, it's 40 years too late to reverse the illogical >OCO policy.) > Is the rationale to thwart users who would seek support saying, "I made only a *little*change* in the source!" >On 2023-09-29 12:54, Peter Relson wrote: >> Regarding PL/X documentation, wouldn't sharing such information outside of >> IBM, in the absence of having some sort of license agreement, be "bad form" >> (or worse)? >> would it be undercutting some contractual agreements or exclusive licenses? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X
Hi Peter, There is another solution ... make PL/ available especially to students/enthusiasts/hobbyists. While doing that, provide an "amateur" version of z/OS for the same crowd and allow *anyone* to run it on Hercules (or equivalent) on Intel/AMD hardware. It's not yet (but almost) too late to stop the Big Iron golden goose from dying. These 2 suggestions might cause a renewed interest for next generation mainframers. (Unfortunately, however, it's 40 years too late to reverse the illogical OCO policy.) Regards, David On 2023-09-29 12:54, Peter Relson wrote: Regarding PL/X documentation, wouldn't sharing such information outside of IBM, in the absence of having some sort of license agreement, be "bad form" (or worse)? Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X
AFAIK, PL/S II was the last version for which IBM issued unrestricted documentation; I would assume that manuals for, e.g., PL/8, PL/AS, PL/X, are proprietary. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Peter Relson Sent: Friday, September 29, 2023 12:54 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: PL/X Regarding PL/X documentation, wouldn't sharing such information outside of IBM, in the absence of having some sort of license agreement, be "bad form" (or worse)? Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/X
Regarding PL/X documentation, wouldn't sharing such information outside of IBM, in the absence of having some sort of license agreement, be "bad form" (or worse)? Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
PL/X
HiI am looking for old PL/X 3.2 PDFs...Does anyone has it? Thank youDan Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
