Re: Punched cards and character set
On S/360, column binary reads each column as two six-bit bytes and stores it as two eight-bit bytes with high order 0, i,e., 0-0-12_row-11_row-0_row-1_row-2_row-3_row 0-0-4_row-5_row-6_row-7_row-8_row-9_row -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl] Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 10:12 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set Gentlemen, First I want to thank you for your explanations, I appreciate it. It seems I read wrong documentation, that mean the documentation was OK, but it described older "character sets" than used in S/360 family. I read many web sites and the most popular description of "IBM code" was similar to what en.wikipedia shows, also similar to 026 or 029 punch machines. Those character set contain 0-9, A-Z and some special characters (like +#=), but definitely no lowercase alphabetic. Nevermind I was wrong. Now I see references to full EBCDIC 256 characters. So my questions were based on false assumption and then irrelevant. However in the resonses I read several times about "column binary" vs EBCDIC. What is column binary? And I sustain query for pictures of JCL statements on the cards. I collected many card pictures but only one with some // AFAIK incomplete statement. What's funny, approx. 21 years ago I was teaching JCL and one of my student gave me his own job on the cards. Due to other students requests I i gave them out almost all the cards. Now I have only few, completely blank (unpunched) cards. Regards -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 02.06.2020 o 16:19, R.S. pisze: > I have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions. > > As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow > limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. > Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on > real punched cards. > Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any > other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program > independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, > whatever). > > Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched > card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read > from DASD? > > Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the > same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, > but as far as I understand those set was for other machines > (Remington, pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) > Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP > 037" or so. > > > And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL > statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images > of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card > pictures, but none with JCL. > == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,http://secure-web.cisco.com/1ODLzQ3OJsm_IlpGsBzj734h0O6pUSf62le6sV-VOKQ4JcRXyXzB6GsrDksD37hRJLgFGYwq6iEh0nJf_Drb9ItlJ36jqzlpi3khsKCQ8mhDLeMfIDC5YUed3Ba_zR-J4ZfFfsC5jJQK6nHR7zSpQzSQxcri1_cF1aNB7-KRapMw8I9E3vdQ68J8zuHvYI4Y1n7qsGxN2mFXjIm0VOOOkVKnQa5-wX4mLWJeGXoH7G1i-l6DHgpypH2ANpcprWMPreBTqDW71kJ_8vfv_JppylwzwwjeIQFsQ1zSq8SehncVq6BrVqzJpmp1GcHL7x3e8hRhxaCsoyDpKnTxUeDTfnAExRhRDR65gNw4jY226p3tV_EkK7bskSOB78XGt7tJ-3k5zMemlYjzz_FyL830lzbP-Blms607pF4vFt2RId9p8ZqzNKhEZySfrxEbCbQwn/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with i
Re: Punched cards and character set
Gentlemen, First I want to thank you for your explanations, I appreciate it. It seems I read wrong documentation, that mean the documentation was OK, but it described older "character sets" than used in S/360 family. I read many web sites and the most popular description of "IBM code" was similar to what en.wikipedia shows, also similar to 026 or 029 punch machines. Those character set contain 0-9, A-Z and some special characters (like +#=), but definitely no lowercase alphabetic. Nevermind I was wrong. Now I see references to full EBCDIC 256 characters. So my questions were based on false assumption and then irrelevant. However in the resonses I read several times about "column binary" vs EBCDIC. What is column binary? And I sustain query for pictures of JCL statements on the cards. I collected many card pictures but only one with some // AFAIK incomplete statement. What's funny, approx. 21 years ago I was teaching JCL and one of my student gave me his own job on the cards. Due to other students requests I i gave them out almost all the cards. Now I have only few, completely blank (unpunched) cards. Regards -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 02.06.2020 o 16:19, R.S. pisze: I have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions. As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on real punched cards. Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, whatever). Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read from DASD? Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so. And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL. == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
I thought that vintage green (& other) cards had the actual card-punch rows listed, and it turns out that is true: http://weblog.ceicher.com/archives/IBM360greencard.pdf sas On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 4:10 PM Tom Marchant < 000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 16:58:03 -0500, Paul Gilmartin > wrote: > > >I don't understand the table at: > >https://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/codes.html > > > >The column labels 12, 11, 10, (blank) appear redundantly on the > >second and fourth quadrants. > > You might find the chart on page 150.3 of > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/princOps/A22-6821-7_360PrincOpsDec67.pdf > to be easier to understand. The prior page describes how to read it. > > -- > Tom Marchant > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 15:10:20 -0500, Tom Marchant wrote: >On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 16:58:03 -0500, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > >>I don't understand the table at: >>https://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/codes.html >> >>The column labels 12, 11, 10, (blank) appear redundantly on the >>second and fourth quadrants. > It seems to have omitted a couple rows of zone punches. >You might find the chart on page 150.3 of >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/princOps/A22-6821-7_360PrincOpsDec67.pdf >to be easier to understand. The prior page describes how to read it. > Yes. So lower case was discovered so long ago. Barely after the middle ages. Thanks, gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 16:58:03 -0500, Paul Gilmartin wrote: >I don't understand the table at: >https://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/codes.html > >The column labels 12, 11, 10, (blank) appear redundantly on the >second and fourth quadrants. You might find the chart on page 150.3 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/princOps/A22-6821-7_360PrincOpsDec67.pdf to be easier to understand. The prior page describes how to read it. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Yeah, we used them for notecards and shopping lists until I used up my entire
stock sometime in the nineties.
Charles
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Mark Jacobs
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 6:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set
Up until a couple of weeks ago I had a full box of 2000 that I absconded with
in the early 90's. Now I'm down to about 1900.
Mark Jacobs
Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.
GPG Public Key -
https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get=markjac...@protonmail.com
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 9:21 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Peter, you may want to go to eBay and/or Amazon and price punch cards. You
> may be able to make a buck or two on those in your attic. I looked at this
> a while ago - thought I might want to use some old ones for notepads and
> bookmarks, and found they're now considered antique arcana. I'm looking
> now, and the cheapest I see off-hand on eBay is a pack of 50 for $12. More
> common is about 50 cents per card. And here's one ("Vintage IBM punch card
> Hollerith PUNCHED PRINTED used IBM mainframe"), a lot of 30 for which he's
> asking $1995 (no decimal point). I'm sure it'll still be there when you go
> there to look incredulously :).
>
> Oh, wait, here's a cheaper one: Ten thousand cards for the low, low price
> of $1650 (plus 127.25 shipping). You can break them up and sell them in
> lots of 100 for $40 each and make a killing.
>
> ---
>
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* I don't want the cheese, I just want out of the trap. -Spanish proverb
> */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Farley, Peter x23353
> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:43
>
> Sorry, I don't have any actual JCL on physical punched cards any more.
> Somewhere in the attic I may have a box or two of blank ones, but nothing
> with punches.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU On Behalf Of
>
> R.S.
> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:20 AM
>
> Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to
> get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I
> have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL.
>
> ---
>
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Up until a couple of weeks ago I had a full box of 2000 that I absconded with
in the early 90's. Now I'm down to about 1900.
Mark Jacobs
Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.
GPG Public Key -
https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get=markjac...@protonmail.com
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 9:21 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Peter, you may want to go to eBay and/or Amazon and price punch cards. You
> may be able to make a buck or two on those in your attic. I looked at this
> a while ago - thought I might want to use some old ones for notepads and
> bookmarks, and found they're now considered antique arcana. I'm looking
> now, and the cheapest I see off-hand on eBay is a pack of 50 for $12. More
> common is about 50 cents per card. And here's one ("Vintage IBM punch card
> Hollerith PUNCHED PRINTED used IBM mainframe"), a lot of 30 for which he's
> asking $1995 (no decimal point). I'm sure it'll still be there when you go
> there to look incredulously :).
>
> Oh, wait, here's a cheaper one: Ten thousand cards for the low, low price
> of $1650 (plus 127.25 shipping). You can break them up and sell them in
> lots of 100 for $40 each and make a killing.
>
> ---
>
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* I don't want the cheese, I just want out of the trap. -Spanish proverb
> */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Farley, Peter x23353
> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:43
>
> Sorry, I don't have any actual JCL on physical punched cards any more.
> Somewhere in the attic I may have a box or two of blank ones, but nothing
> with punches.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU On Behalf Of
>
> R.S.
> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:20 AM
>
> Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to
> get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I
> have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL.
>
> ---
>
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Peter, you may want to go to eBay and/or Amazon and price punch cards. You
may be able to make a buck or two on those in your attic. I looked at this
a while ago - thought I might want to use some old ones for notepads and
bookmarks, and found they're now considered antique arcana. I'm looking
now, and the cheapest I see off-hand on eBay is a pack of 50 for $12. More
common is about 50 cents per card. And here's one ("Vintage IBM punch card
Hollerith PUNCHED PRINTED used IBM mainframe"), a lot of 30 for which he's
asking $1995 (no decimal point). I'm sure it'll still be there when you go
there to look incredulously :).
Oh, wait, here's a cheaper one: Ten thousand cards for the low, low price
of $1650 (plus 127.25 shipping). You can break them up and sell them in
lots of 100 for $40 each and make a killing.
---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
/* I don't want the cheese, I just want out of the trap. -Spanish proverb
*/
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Farley, Peter x23353
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:43
Sorry, I don't have any actual JCL on physical punched cards any more.
Somewhere in the attic I may have a box or two of blank ones, but nothing
with punches.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
R.S.
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:20 AM
Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to
get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I
have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL.
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Yep. Same width as Roman Chariots, drawn by two horses, side by side.. On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:39 PM Jesse 1 Robinson wrote: > > My favorite OT theme. Related in my mind. The diameter of the original space > shuttle booster rocket was an odd value determined as follows: > > -- The booster was built in rural Utah > -- To reach the eventual launch pad, it had to travel through a train tunnel > -- The booster had to fit through the tunnel > -- So the spacing of train tracks determined the booster's diameter > -- The spacing of RR tracks was influenced by the spacing of ancient wagon > wheels > -- Wagon wheel spacing was influenced by the horses that once pulled them > -- In other words, the diameter of the booster rocket derived from a horse's > *ss > -- QED? > > . > . > J.O.Skip Robinson > Southern California Edison Company > Electric Dragon Team Paddler > SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager > 323-715-0595 Mobile > 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW > robin...@sce.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Charles Mills > Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 2:31 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: (External):Re: Punched cards and character set > > CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL > > "Laced" (every hold punched) cards were an amusing bulletin board item. > > And yes, I believe I heard at the time @Jesse's premise as to why 'S' did not > use row 1. > > Actually, the alpha codes are as follow: > > A - I, row 12 plus rows 1 - 9 > J - R, row 11 plus rows 1 - 9 > S - Z, row 0 plus rows 2 - 9 > > So you see that if S used row 1 it would have had two adjacent rows punched, > 0 and 1. > > (The rows, from top to bottom, are 12, 11, 0 - 9.) > > Non-alphanumeric punches were fairly rare, and column binary was extremely > rare. > > Object code decks of course contained non-alphanumeric punches. The X'02' > that begins each (traditional) object code record, preceding ESD, TXT, RLD or > END? I still think of it as "12-2-9.") > > Charles > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Steve Smith > Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 2:07 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set > > That's plausible, I think. While there are plenty of adjacent punches in the > full 256-characters, I'm sure most cards were mostly alphanumeric only, and > it might pay to make them as strong as possible. I remember seeing some > cards that were punched in every position; those were very delicate, and > definitely couldn't survive a pass through a card reader, regardless of the > fact they had no validity at all. > > sas > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:55 PM Jesse 1 Robinson > wrote: > > > I haven't seen this mentioned. The punch card codes for letters went > > like > > this: > > > > A - I rows 1 - 9 > > J - R rows 1 - 9 > > S - Z rows 2 - 9 > > > > So why was S assigned to row 2 instead of row 1? The answer I was > > taught was that row 1 was too close to an adjacent location. The > > punching/reading devices and card stock of the day could not reliably > > handle punches that close together, so row 1 was skipped for the third > > alphabetic sequence. > > > > What's amusing is that this pattern was carried over to EBCDIC. The > > code for S likewise skips a possible combination: D9 to E2; 'E1' is > > not assigned to an alphabetic character. > > > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 21:38:56 +, Jesse 1 Robinson wrote: >My favorite OT theme. Related in my mind. The diameter of the original space >shuttle booster rocket was an odd value determined as follows: > >-- The booster was built in rural Utah >-- To reach the eventual launch pad, it had to travel through a train tunnel >-- The booster had to fit through the tunnel >-- So the spacing of train tracks determined the booster's diameter >-- The spacing of RR tracks was influenced by the spacing of ancient wagon >wheels >-- Wagon wheel spacing was influenced by the horses that once pulled them >-- In other words, the diameter of the booster rocket derived from a horse's >*ss >-- QED? > Partly: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/ Too good to be untrue. The railroad gauge disputes in 19th Century England were remarkably similar to cell phone incomaptabilities and ASCII-EBCDIC. Each side imagines a competitive advantage in incompatibility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break_of_gauge#Overcoming_a_break_of_gauge -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 16:42:18 -0500, Bill Godfrey wrote: >If "S" was assigned the 0 and 2 rows because 0 and 1 were too close together, >then >why was "/" given rows 0 and 1? Does that punch a hole in this theory? GD > And there'sa whole row of 7-8 (sparsely populated). I don't understand the table at: https://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/codes.html The column labels 12, 11, 10, (blank) appear redundantly on the second and fourth quadrants. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
I don't think so. Alphas were an afterthought to numerics, and specials were an afterthought to alphas. In 1960's accounting data S's were much more common than slashes. There are lots of characters with adjacent punches, but I think it plausible that IBM avoided them for what it thought to be common characters. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Godfrey Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 2:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set If "S" was assigned the 0 and 2 rows because 0 and 1 were too close together, then why was "/" given rows 0 and 1? Does that punch a hole in this theory? GD Bill On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 14:30:52 -0700, Charles Mills wrote: >"Laced" (every hold punched) cards were an amusing bulletin board item. > >And yes, I believe I heard at the time @Jesse's premise as to why 'S' did not >use row 1. > >Actually, the alpha codes are as follow: > >A - I, row 12 plus rows 1 - 9 >J - R, row 11 plus rows 1 - 9 >S - Z, row 0 plus rows 2 - 9 > >So you see that if S used row 1 it would have had two adjacent rows punched, 0 >and 1. > >(The rows, from top to bottom, are 12, 11, 0 - 9.) > >Non-alphanumeric punches were fairly rare, and column binary was extremely >rare. > >Object code decks of course contained non-alphanumeric punches. The X'02' that >begins each (traditional) object code record, preceding ESD, TXT, RLD or END? >I still think of it as "12-2-9.") > >Charles > > >-Original Message- >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On >Behalf Of Steve Smith >Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 2:07 PM >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set > >That's plausible, I think. While there are plenty of adjacent punches in >the full 256-characters, I'm sure most cards were mostly alphanumeric only, >and it might pay to make them as strong as possible. I remember seeing >some cards that were punched in every position; those were very delicate, >and definitely couldn't survive a pass through a card reader, regardless of >the fact they had no validity at all. > >sas > >On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:55 PM Jesse 1 Robinson >wrote: > >> I haven't seen this mentioned. The punch card codes for letters went like >> this: >> >> A - I rows 1 - 9 >> J - R rows 1 - 9 >> S - Z rows 2 - 9 >> >> So why was S assigned to row 2 instead of row 1? The answer I was taught >> was that row 1 was too close to an adjacent location. The punching/reading >> devices and card stock of the day could not reliably handle punches that >> close together, so row 1 was skipped for the third alphabetic sequence. >> >> What's amusing is that this pattern was carried over to EBCDIC. The code >> for S likewise skips a possible combination: D9 to E2; 'E1' is not assigned >> to an alphabetic character. >> >> > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
If "S" was assigned the 0 and 2 rows because 0 and 1 were too close together, then why was "/" given rows 0 and 1? Does that punch a hole in this theory? GD Bill On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 14:30:52 -0700, Charles Mills wrote: >"Laced" (every hold punched) cards were an amusing bulletin board item. > >And yes, I believe I heard at the time @Jesse's premise as to why 'S' did not >use row 1. > >Actually, the alpha codes are as follow: > >A - I, row 12 plus rows 1 - 9 >J - R, row 11 plus rows 1 - 9 >S - Z, row 0 plus rows 2 - 9 > >So you see that if S used row 1 it would have had two adjacent rows punched, 0 >and 1. > >(The rows, from top to bottom, are 12, 11, 0 - 9.) > >Non-alphanumeric punches were fairly rare, and column binary was extremely >rare. > >Object code decks of course contained non-alphanumeric punches. The X'02' that >begins each (traditional) object code record, preceding ESD, TXT, RLD or END? >I still think of it as "12-2-9.") > >Charles > > >-Original Message- >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On >Behalf Of Steve Smith >Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 2:07 PM >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set > >That's plausible, I think. While there are plenty of adjacent punches in >the full 256-characters, I'm sure most cards were mostly alphanumeric only, >and it might pay to make them as strong as possible. I remember seeing >some cards that were punched in every position; those were very delicate, >and definitely couldn't survive a pass through a card reader, regardless of >the fact they had no validity at all. > >sas > >On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:55 PM Jesse 1 Robinson >wrote: > >> I haven't seen this mentioned. The punch card codes for letters went like >> this: >> >> A - I rows 1 - 9 >> J - R rows 1 - 9 >> S - Z rows 2 - 9 >> >> So why was S assigned to row 2 instead of row 1? The answer I was taught >> was that row 1 was too close to an adjacent location. The punching/reading >> devices and card stock of the day could not reliably handle punches that >> close together, so row 1 was skipped for the third alphabetic sequence. >> >> What's amusing is that this pattern was carried over to EBCDIC. The code >> for S likewise skips a possible combination: D9 to E2; 'E1' is not assigned >> to an alphabetic character. >> >> > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
My favorite OT theme. Related in my mind. The diameter of the original space shuttle booster rocket was an odd value determined as follows: -- The booster was built in rural Utah -- To reach the eventual launch pad, it had to travel through a train tunnel -- The booster had to fit through the tunnel -- So the spacing of train tracks determined the booster's diameter -- The spacing of RR tracks was influenced by the spacing of ancient wagon wheels -- Wagon wheel spacing was influenced by the horses that once pulled them -- In other words, the diameter of the booster rocket derived from a horse's *ss -- QED? . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 2:31 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: Punched cards and character set CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL "Laced" (every hold punched) cards were an amusing bulletin board item. And yes, I believe I heard at the time @Jesse's premise as to why 'S' did not use row 1. Actually, the alpha codes are as follow: A - I, row 12 plus rows 1 - 9 J - R, row 11 plus rows 1 - 9 S - Z, row 0 plus rows 2 - 9 So you see that if S used row 1 it would have had two adjacent rows punched, 0 and 1. (The rows, from top to bottom, are 12, 11, 0 - 9.) Non-alphanumeric punches were fairly rare, and column binary was extremely rare. Object code decks of course contained non-alphanumeric punches. The X'02' that begins each (traditional) object code record, preceding ESD, TXT, RLD or END? I still think of it as "12-2-9.") Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 2:07 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set That's plausible, I think. While there are plenty of adjacent punches in the full 256-characters, I'm sure most cards were mostly alphanumeric only, and it might pay to make them as strong as possible. I remember seeing some cards that were punched in every position; those were very delicate, and definitely couldn't survive a pass through a card reader, regardless of the fact they had no validity at all. sas On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:55 PM Jesse 1 Robinson wrote: > I haven't seen this mentioned. The punch card codes for letters went > like > this: > > A - I rows 1 - 9 > J - R rows 1 - 9 > S - Z rows 2 - 9 > > So why was S assigned to row 2 instead of row 1? The answer I was > taught was that row 1 was too close to an adjacent location. The > punching/reading devices and card stock of the day could not reliably > handle punches that close together, so row 1 was skipped for the third > alphabetic sequence. > > What's amusing is that this pattern was carried over to EBCDIC. The > code for S likewise skips a possible combination: D9 to E2; 'E1' is > not assigned to an alphabetic character. > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
"Laced" (every hold punched) cards were an amusing bulletin board item. And yes, I believe I heard at the time @Jesse's premise as to why 'S' did not use row 1. Actually, the alpha codes are as follow: A - I, row 12 plus rows 1 - 9 J - R, row 11 plus rows 1 - 9 S - Z, row 0 plus rows 2 - 9 So you see that if S used row 1 it would have had two adjacent rows punched, 0 and 1. (The rows, from top to bottom, are 12, 11, 0 - 9.) Non-alphanumeric punches were fairly rare, and column binary was extremely rare. Object code decks of course contained non-alphanumeric punches. The X'02' that begins each (traditional) object code record, preceding ESD, TXT, RLD or END? I still think of it as "12-2-9.") Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 2:07 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set That's plausible, I think. While there are plenty of adjacent punches in the full 256-characters, I'm sure most cards were mostly alphanumeric only, and it might pay to make them as strong as possible. I remember seeing some cards that were punched in every position; those were very delicate, and definitely couldn't survive a pass through a card reader, regardless of the fact they had no validity at all. sas On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:55 PM Jesse 1 Robinson wrote: > I haven't seen this mentioned. The punch card codes for letters went like > this: > > A - I rows 1 - 9 > J - R rows 1 - 9 > S - Z rows 2 - 9 > > So why was S assigned to row 2 instead of row 1? The answer I was taught > was that row 1 was too close to an adjacent location. The punching/reading > devices and card stock of the day could not reliably handle punches that > close together, so row 1 was skipped for the third alphabetic sequence. > > What's amusing is that this pattern was carried over to EBCDIC. The code > for S likewise skips a possible combination: D9 to E2; 'E1' is not assigned > to an alphabetic character. > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
They were valid column binary. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Steve Smith [sasd...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 5:06 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set That's plausible, I think. While there are plenty of adjacent punches in the full 256-characters, I'm sure most cards were mostly alphanumeric only, and it might pay to make them as strong as possible. I remember seeing some cards that were punched in every position; those were very delicate, and definitely couldn't survive a pass through a card reader, regardless of the fact they had no validity at all. sas On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:55 PM Jesse 1 Robinson wrote: > I haven't seen this mentioned. The punch card codes for letters went like > this: > > A - I rows 1 - 9 > J - R rows 1 - 9 > S - Z rows 2 - 9 > > So why was S assigned to row 2 instead of row 1? The answer I was taught > was that row 1 was too close to an adjacent location. The punching/reading > devices and card stock of the day could not reliably handle punches that > close together, so row 1 was skipped for the third alphabetic sequence. > > What's amusing is that this pattern was carried over to EBCDIC. The code > for S likewise skips a possible combination: D9 to E2; 'E1' is not assigned > to an alphabetic character. > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
That's plausible, I think. While there are plenty of adjacent punches in the full 256-characters, I'm sure most cards were mostly alphanumeric only, and it might pay to make them as strong as possible. I remember seeing some cards that were punched in every position; those were very delicate, and definitely couldn't survive a pass through a card reader, regardless of the fact they had no validity at all. sas On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:55 PM Jesse 1 Robinson wrote: > I haven't seen this mentioned. The punch card codes for letters went like > this: > > A - I rows 1 - 9 > J - R rows 1 - 9 > S - Z rows 2 - 9 > > So why was S assigned to row 2 instead of row 1? The answer I was taught > was that row 1 was too close to an adjacent location. The punching/reading > devices and card stock of the day could not reliably handle punches that > close together, so row 1 was skipped for the third alphabetic sequence. > > What's amusing is that this pattern was carried over to EBCDIC. The code > for S likewise skips a possible combination: D9 to E2; 'E1' is not assigned > to an alphabetic character. > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Two of the EBCDIC design constraints were 1. Preserve the punch combinations for common characters 2. Map numeric punches into the corresponding 4-bit numbers -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jesse 1 Robinson [jesse1.robin...@sce.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 4:54 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set I haven't seen this mentioned. The punch card codes for letters went like this: A - I rows 1 - 9 J - R rows 1 - 9 S - Z rows 2 - 9 So why was S assigned to row 2 instead of row 1? The answer I was taught was that row 1 was too close to an adjacent location. The punching/reading devices and card stock of the day could not reliably handle punches that close together, so row 1 was skipped for the third alphabetic sequence. What's amusing is that this pattern was carried over to EBCDIC. The code for S likewise skips a possible combination: D9 to E2; 'E1' is not assigned to an alphabetic character. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 12:43 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: Punched cards and character set CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 15:14:33 -0400, Tony Harminc wrote: > >Some card readers supported Column Binary or Card Image mode, and in >this case a card record was 160 bytes with each column mapped to the >low-order 6 bits of two adjacent bytes. I think there were some other >variations for this mapping. > A colleague, steeped in CDC 6400 lore, got a Ph.D. from U. of Colo. and took a job with IBM. He took his personal source library of utilities on CDC binary cards, two 6-bit characters per column, intending that his first learning experience with s/360 assembler would be deciphering and translating CDC=>EBCDIC. He could not get access to any IBM reader with the column binary feature. >Code Pages as we know them today have their roots a good deal later >than punched cards. At least in the IBM mainframe world, they came from >the 3270 devices, which were initially US-centric, with only upper case >English (unaccented Latin) letters. Almost immediately local variants >were field developed in many countries to provide characters needed. In >many - maybe most - cases the character assignments clashed, and >because of the 3270 addressing architecture, positions below X'40' were >not available. > Don't forget lower case. But I guess IBM did. Alas. See: https://secure-web.cisco.com/1uJJ4M0JM1Y-6cjjSrqrtZK-RS4l7JewSbteKoXbnnRb_fSkDH6GUJB3x-jlpEHa8hFLSz1P4TQqhKEAg6WYcGF2PtfLXBH57i9jg0LN0lHRkwEi-hNstlRkEMoxMsLZ6i-qz6z2ycvsSKDVSsCv_nubHVHLqpwuB7v9lRx-T17ESHt9b5keSghXnVQ48zKA7C4mgrnPaX719sD5gq0RhgK1bwAJgeYJWAXP_-2K_F0cxn1kVg1LaW0352v5Ggn6CTK_iEsgoltIYC0mVsNOWKtjIiU-SlxIXTe7IhkfACbW2k2gk_cjjc-RYxunAHFCEKVsnL_sJPUu_utx_GoG2byrbk2DNjhuttPtWhjVHbihFLWjj3CTh5uTosaRSe_Zl6t0Lx2GewctGij77Dy4f8EXBNdXljWEHlANSMw3QO4E_h4idixxSEfDN_3aIdIhU/https%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F20180513204153%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bobbemer.com%2FP-BIT.HTM >A very good historic reference for how this developed is the 1989 SHARE >"ASCII and EBCDIC Character Set and Code Issues in Systems Application >Architecture" report by the ASCII / EBCDIC Character Set Task Force. To >make their point, they used the short name "SHARE ÆCS Report". I have a >scanned copy if you can't find it online somewhere. >Parts of this became input into the design of UNICODE. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
I haven't seen this mentioned. The punch card codes for letters went like this: A - I rows 1 - 9 J - R rows 1 - 9 S - Z rows 2 - 9 So why was S assigned to row 2 instead of row 1? The answer I was taught was that row 1 was too close to an adjacent location. The punching/reading devices and card stock of the day could not reliably handle punches that close together, so row 1 was skipped for the third alphabetic sequence. What's amusing is that this pattern was carried over to EBCDIC. The code for S likewise skips a possible combination: D9 to E2; 'E1' is not assigned to an alphabetic character. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 12:43 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: Punched cards and character set CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 15:14:33 -0400, Tony Harminc wrote: > >Some card readers supported Column Binary or Card Image mode, and in >this case a card record was 160 bytes with each column mapped to the >low-order 6 bits of two adjacent bytes. I think there were some other >variations for this mapping. > A colleague, steeped in CDC 6400 lore, got a Ph.D. from U. of Colo. and took a job with IBM. He took his personal source library of utilities on CDC binary cards, two 6-bit characters per column, intending that his first learning experience with s/360 assembler would be deciphering and translating CDC=>EBCDIC. He could not get access to any IBM reader with the column binary feature. >Code Pages as we know them today have their roots a good deal later >than punched cards. At least in the IBM mainframe world, they came from >the 3270 devices, which were initially US-centric, with only upper case >English (unaccented Latin) letters. Almost immediately local variants >were field developed in many countries to provide characters needed. In >many - maybe most - cases the character assignments clashed, and >because of the 3270 addressing architecture, positions below X'40' were >not available. > Don't forget lower case. But I guess IBM did. Alas. See: https://web.archive.org/web/20180513204153/http://www.bobbemer.com/P-BIT.HTM >A very good historic reference for how this developed is the 1989 SHARE >"ASCII and EBCDIC Character Set and Code Issues in Systems Application >Architecture" report by the ASCII / EBCDIC Character Set Task Force. To >make their point, they used the short name "SHARE ÆCS Report". I have a >scanned copy if you can't find it online somewhere. >Parts of this became input into the design of UNICODE. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 15:14:33 -0400, Tony Harminc wrote: > >Some card readers supported Column Binary or Card Image mode, and in >this case a card record was 160 bytes with each column mapped to the >low-order 6 bits of two adjacent bytes. I think there were some other >variations for this mapping. > A colleague, steeped in CDC 6400 lore, got a Ph.D. from U. of Colo. and took a job with IBM. He took his personal source library of utilities on CDC binary cards, two 6-bit characters per column, intending that his first learning experience with s/360 assembler would be deciphering and translating CDC=>EBCDIC. He could not get access to any IBM reader with the column binary feature. >Code Pages as we know them today have their roots a good deal later >than punched cards. At least in the IBM mainframe world, they came >from the 3270 devices, which were initially US-centric, with only >upper case English (unaccented Latin) letters. Almost immediately >local variants were field developed in many countries to provide >characters needed. In many - maybe most - cases the character >assignments clashed, and because of the 3270 addressing architecture, >positions below X'40' were not available. > Don't forget lower case. But I guess IBM did. Alas. See: https://web.archive.org/web/20180513204153/http://www.bobbemer.com/P-BIT.HTM >A very good historic reference for how this developed is the 1989 >SHARE "ASCII and EBCDIC Character Set and Code Issues in Systems >Application Architecture" report by the ASCII / EBCDIC Character Set >Task Force. To make their point, they used the short name "SHARE ÆCS >Report". I have a scanned copy if you can't find it online somewhere. >Parts of this became input into the design of UNICODE. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
The difference between commercial BCD and scientific BCD was a codfe page issue, although it predated that nomenclature. There were also code page issues among the various UCS images supplied by IBM for the 1403. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tony Harminc [t...@harminc.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 3:14 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 at 10:20, R.S. wrote: > As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, > so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. No, not at all. In fact in a way the opposite is true - a punched card column can contain way more than 256 values. There are 12 rows of potential holes, so 2**12 values, in theory. In practice: There are mechanical reasons to limit the number of holes punched in a column. WIth many holes the card loses strength, and also the punching action requires either one big bang, or multiple attacks on the same column - neither good for speed or relibility.. Even more practically, though, obviously that 2**12 doesn't fit in a single 8-bit byte. So it was normal for S/360 to map each column to a single byte (thus each card occupied 80 bytes when read), and the encoding used was one of two closely related ones: BDCIC or EBCDIC. These are to be seen on any S/360 Green Card. The rule is to permit only one punch in rows 1-7, so any combination in rows 12, 11, 0, 8, 9 (2**5=32) * 8 possibilities in 1-7 = 256. Some card readers supported Column Binary or Card Image mode, and in this case a card record was 160 bytes with each column mapped to the low-order 6 bits of two adjacent bytes. I think there were some other variations for this mapping. There were also at least two variants of reading hand-made marks on a card made with a pencil or pen: the older Mark Sense (marks made with a high-graphite conductive pencil and read electrically) and Optical Mark Read (OMR), read by optical reflection using a separate read station from the optical transmission one for reading holes. Some readers allowed for mixed holes and marks. Bitsavers has manuals for some of these card machines. > Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or > so. Code Pages as we know them today have their roots a good deal later than punched cards. At least in the IBM mainframe world, they came from the 3270 devices, which were initially US-centric, with only upper case English (unaccented Latin) letters. Almost immediately local variants were field developed in many countries to provide characters needed. In many - maybe most - cases the character assignments clashed, and because of the 3270 addressing architecture, positions below X'40' were not available. There were also print trains (1403 or 3211) with extra or replacement characters, and these varied somewhat in their character mappings. A very good historic reference for how this developed is the 1989 SHARE "ASCII and EBCDIC Character Set and Code Issues in Systems Application Architecture" report by the ASCII / EBCDIC Character Set Task Force. To make their point, they used the short name "SHARE ÆCS Report". I have a scanned copy if you can't find it online somewhere. Parts of this became input into the design of UNICODE. Tony H. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 at 10:20, R.S. wrote: > As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, > so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. No, not at all. In fact in a way the opposite is true - a punched card column can contain way more than 256 values. There are 12 rows of potential holes, so 2**12 values, in theory. In practice: There are mechanical reasons to limit the number of holes punched in a column. WIth many holes the card loses strength, and also the punching action requires either one big bang, or multiple attacks on the same column - neither good for speed or relibility.. Even more practically, though, obviously that 2**12 doesn't fit in a single 8-bit byte. So it was normal for S/360 to map each column to a single byte (thus each card occupied 80 bytes when read), and the encoding used was one of two closely related ones: BDCIC or EBCDIC. These are to be seen on any S/360 Green Card. The rule is to permit only one punch in rows 1-7, so any combination in rows 12, 11, 0, 8, 9 (2**5=32) * 8 possibilities in 1-7 = 256. Some card readers supported Column Binary or Card Image mode, and in this case a card record was 160 bytes with each column mapped to the low-order 6 bits of two adjacent bytes. I think there were some other variations for this mapping. There were also at least two variants of reading hand-made marks on a card made with a pencil or pen: the older Mark Sense (marks made with a high-graphite conductive pencil and read electrically) and Optical Mark Read (OMR), read by optical reflection using a separate read station from the optical transmission one for reading holes. Some readers allowed for mixed holes and marks. Bitsavers has manuals for some of these card machines. > Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or > so. Code Pages as we know them today have their roots a good deal later than punched cards. At least in the IBM mainframe world, they came from the 3270 devices, which were initially US-centric, with only upper case English (unaccented Latin) letters. Almost immediately local variants were field developed in many countries to provide characters needed. In many - maybe most - cases the character assignments clashed, and because of the 3270 addressing architecture, positions below X'40' were not available. There were also print trains (1403 or 3211) with extra or replacement characters, and these varied somewhat in their character mappings. A very good historic reference for how this developed is the 1989 SHARE "ASCII and EBCDIC Character Set and Code Issues in Systems Application Architecture" report by the ASCII / EBCDIC Character Set Task Force. To make their point, they used the short name "SHARE ÆCS Report". I have a scanned copy if you can't find it online somewhere. Parts of this became input into the design of UNICODE. Tony H. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
I stand corrected. 90 columns for Univac not 96. Memory is the second thing to go and I forget what the first one is . . . I only saw them once, when working as a temp keypunch operator. The service sent me to a Univac location and I had no idea how to operate their variety of keypunch machine, so that day was a bust for me. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 11:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set UNIVAC initially used 90 column cards; they never used 96. It was IBM that used 96 column card on the S/3. -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 15:48:23 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >That's what the multipunch icon is for. > Doesn't seem to work. Rats! It won't let me paste from my Mac clipboard. > >From: Paul Gilmartin >Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 11:45 AM > >>In this day and age it should be pretty trivial to write software that would >>encode a scanned image of a punched card. >> > https://www.masswerk.at/cardreader/ > >... and you can generate those with: https://www.masswerk.at/keypunch/ > >(But it doesn't do UTF-8.) -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Yes, but he wants UTF-8, so he needs to do some additional hand coding before looking up the hole encoding, *then* use multi-punch. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Joe Monk [joemon...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 11:55 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set http://secure-web.cisco.com/1Zfs9qYXD4UdhoLSjssD-uiGVO42c69TjSER2FdDiHRXicVVTMTBj8rmoXCj0hh-k4Y0y16nCDFc_NshwJS1KrNx1Mven91NqYNt13MmJq7i_-uydAfEBW7vUJJwFhA28H4JCVGzxCm3JzX47y1pRwJAIt_6YKJyruvYEokM7JXFyjIZWI7c4OL8TaPQDMyUYbFk3Dn-kE_kELMqW7CvVSuVSFmvjro4vjr1Lbr51R_RL30sGn9FBnw2fBDPdpNjx7z3_jQGLXLH7OgpttYNwqWODo_hh_ZpxiZ2g6tY9TX_Etl1luc7vQjipMNAJte0KVlFl_Wc2b3xdWtOvrInirAWWLD9i4z_HRDOZRW9FSESnYYAC7gH3xOT6DjRuyFWQwwNUBZ-D16C1BnTKxHx2NCro5E23x_A9RqgHIWD0Out3rF0nP-v3NbLXY7lzKCNf/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitsavers.org%2Fpdf%2Fibm%2F370%2FreferenceCard%2FGX20-1850-7_System_370_Reference_Summary_Feb89.pdf Pages 34-37 show the punch sequences for every EBCDIC character. Joe On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 10:48 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > That's what the multipunch icon is for. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 11:45 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set > > On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:39:47 -0700, Charles Mills wrote: > > >> thousands of punched cards with no real way to read them anymore > > > >In this day and age it should be pretty trivial to write software that > would > >encode a scanned image of a punched card. > > > > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1nnNBEm7A_m0wqtAaLgflbbQkYcjHIggP4CG9-aGJ60iv5LGiLA3b-sgOj4Z5RrXqVoy9bO2GtA9gEMmiJEEw3pCD1XRrPeZQWJJCqaIyNbpg5ZWh8c6x0VeF0TZoxma_Otu7hIdTuq2ofjE708_dgI3S5MCKLcwE_xc7JJfzy8W5CbJtY1SkhkeYSprsqyo2yfbl5OHjUZJbTG2s7GXMFmD7YKxonbikH40zRCkbg_74GAPYOxAYOpwH8ZbsC3mCXT053D09iRwt8LrVy3YY5F2tKCLQ_NGXKUVBEpyITOgO3r2GL4CQhdxQNpIcd1pG8IKub1rEkNzpO2rEF2nrS-ZymxsdobgXvKJTRZ60DFakV-PzKE83Yo7EGjV4tJ_qLCTueYpoubnb8fjN2PfOc2QiDo5PI0UrPLcFhI0zKbq565EBcHShRAWIET5XHxxp/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.masswerk.at%2Fcardreader%2F > > ... and you can generate those with: > https://secure-web.cisco.com/18RdBO7ZKkAs5OiZMvPOj6vYNZ1vPzRv8-SvdzewuLLELpAKP_GeJnSYFbmSwvh2MVE53Rxi2uGYungYYyMlcCaXY3qglnQDjJXofyqjrQn93NUOrWOKhPXFfFDrFFnEjxSbUpj6zbch_4Xq6OPk3cZ0O3ccHUhM6k7wTXzXsZ46f0FqlhmUOnbz9MC6TlsLWiuDSVgJsSHEx6Pw1OkcIfDOGvfOqH2fSx9NTpZOSd-YGOFd-qklQ8znc-6UbGYd5uCaewG9Q5boaZcyXcC_Le94ZTpQ5mb-9Nswve4M-IPz3mjja9x29OM6VtgajzfsgOfin9Yh1gptx3OhF-0Q7BYYX_sT1uSBUCnoV6l-R1JAiAjEyiaAER2Xp-RLhw59c-XIaoMMZ6cHqQaeXro-zjqoyiyA9gaY-jMPVEoB4msJBvL2B092rkIMM4PKcR5H2/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.masswerk.at%2Fkeypunch%2F > > (But it doesn't do UTF-8.) > > -- gil > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Ahhh--good old days...when I started in 65--TAB operator out of school -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Joe Monk Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2020 10:55 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set ** EXTERNAL EMAIL - USE CAUTION ** https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitsavers.org%2Fpdf%2Fibm%2F370%2FreferenceCard%2FGX20-1850-7_System_370_Reference_Summary_Feb89.pdfdata=02%7C01%7CRon.Wells%40OMF.COM%7C5979f6fc5d0c4e84d9c908d8070d5f43%7C57c0053cb5f84a1e8bb6e8afa09f3b82%7C0%7C1%7C637267101305939021sdata=0U3u6cR0BVPcu%2BRKv8vN2a1UBmmJfhx1OjlEzZ5CgHs%3Dreserved=0 Pages 34-37 show the punch sequences for every EBCDIC character. Joe On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 10:48 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > That's what the multipunch icon is for. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.g > mu.edu%2F~smetz3data=02%7C01%7CRon.Wells%40OMF.COM%7C5979f6fc5d0c > 4e84d9c908d8070d5f43%7C57c0053cb5f84a1e8bb6e8afa09f3b82%7C0%7C1%7C6372 > 67101305939021sdata=UjYISYZ3NVs38Xw%2Fdblib6KNZulWvE51TJIWQMwhM74 > %3Dreserved=0 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on > behalf of Paul Gilmartin > [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 11:45 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set > > On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:39:47 -0700, Charles Mills wrote: > > >> thousands of punched cards with no real way to read them anymore > > > >In this day and age it should be pretty trivial to write software > >that > would > >encode a scanned image of a punched card. > > > > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecu > re-web.cisco.com%2F1nnNBEm7A_m0wqtAaLgflbbQkYcjHIggP4CG9-aGJ60iv5LGiLA > 3b-sgOj4Z5RrXqVoy9bO2GtA9gEMmiJEEw3pCD1XRrPeZQWJJCqaIyNbpg5ZWh8c6x0VeF > 0TZoxma_Otu7hIdTuq2ofjE708_dgI3S5MCKLcwE_xc7JJfzy8W5CbJtY1SkhkeYSprsqy > o2yfbl5OHjUZJbTG2s7GXMFmD7YKxonbikH40zRCkbg_74GAPYOxAYOpwH8ZbsC3mCXT05 > 3D09iRwt8LrVy3YY5F2tKCLQ_NGXKUVBEpyITOgO3r2GL4CQhdxQNpIcd1pG8IKub1rEkN > zpO2rEF2nrS-ZymxsdobgXvKJTRZ60DFakV-PzKE83Yo7EGjV4tJ_qLCTueYpoubnb8fjN > 2PfOc2QiDo5PI0UrPLcFhI0zKbq565EBcHShRAWIET5XHxxp%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252 > Fwww.masswerk.at%252Fcardreader%252Fdata=02%7C01%7CRon.Wells%40OM > F.COM%7C5979f6fc5d0c4e84d9c908d8070d5f43%7C57c0053cb5f84a1e8bb6e8afa09 > f3b82%7C0%7C0%7C637267101305943999sdata=3uq5DPnahAow6rKVdCJ9HVo3q > Za8Hp8%2FEH1jkulGeZc%3Dreserved=0 > > ... and you can generate those with: > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecu > re-web.cisco.com%2F18RdBO7ZKkAs5OiZMvPOj6vYNZ1vPzRv8-SvdzewuLLELpAKP_G > eJnSYFbmSwvh2MVE53Rxi2uGYungYYyMlcCaXY3qglnQDjJXofyqjrQn93NUOrWOKhPXFf > FDrFFnEjxSbUpj6zbch_4Xq6OPk3cZ0O3ccHUhM6k7wTXzXsZ46f0FqlhmUOnbz9MC6Tls > LWiuDSVgJsSHEx6Pw1OkcIfDOGvfOqH2fSx9NTpZOSd-YGOFd-qklQ8znc-6UbGYd5uCae > wG9Q5boaZcyXcC_Le94ZTpQ5mb-9Nswve4M-IPz3mjja9x29OM6VtgajzfsgOfin9Yh1gp > tx3OhF-0Q7BYYX_sT1uSBUCnoV6l-R1JAiAjEyiaAER2Xp-RLhw59c-XIaoMMZ6cHqQaeX > ro-zjqoyiyA9gaY-jMPVEoB4msJBvL2B092rkIMM4PKcR5H2%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252 > Fwww.masswerk.at%252Fkeypunch%252Fdata=02%7C01%7CRon.Wells%40OMF. > COM%7C5979f6fc5d0c4e84d9c908d8070d5f43%7C57c0053cb5f84a1e8bb6e8afa09f3 > b82%7C0%7C0%7C637267101305943999sdata=a6bfPeadyYbWTN6vHnJYLFuerqV > jqa1soPmF%2FvY8Ci0%3Dreserved=0 > > (But it doesn't do UTF-8.) > > -- gil > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Email Disclaimer This E-mail contains confidential information belonging to the sender, which may be legally privileged information. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity addressed above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the E-mail or attached files is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/referenceCard/GX20-1850-7_System_370_Reference_Summary_Feb89.pdf Pages 34-37 show the punch sequences for every EBCDIC character. Joe On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 10:48 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > That's what the multipunch icon is for. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 11:45 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set > > On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:39:47 -0700, Charles Mills wrote: > > >> thousands of punched cards with no real way to read them anymore > > > >In this day and age it should be pretty trivial to write software that > would > >encode a scanned image of a punched card. > > > > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1nnNBEm7A_m0wqtAaLgflbbQkYcjHIggP4CG9-aGJ60iv5LGiLA3b-sgOj4Z5RrXqVoy9bO2GtA9gEMmiJEEw3pCD1XRrPeZQWJJCqaIyNbpg5ZWh8c6x0VeF0TZoxma_Otu7hIdTuq2ofjE708_dgI3S5MCKLcwE_xc7JJfzy8W5CbJtY1SkhkeYSprsqyo2yfbl5OHjUZJbTG2s7GXMFmD7YKxonbikH40zRCkbg_74GAPYOxAYOpwH8ZbsC3mCXT053D09iRwt8LrVy3YY5F2tKCLQ_NGXKUVBEpyITOgO3r2GL4CQhdxQNpIcd1pG8IKub1rEkNzpO2rEF2nrS-ZymxsdobgXvKJTRZ60DFakV-PzKE83Yo7EGjV4tJ_qLCTueYpoubnb8fjN2PfOc2QiDo5PI0UrPLcFhI0zKbq565EBcHShRAWIET5XHxxp/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.masswerk.at%2Fcardreader%2F > > ... and you can generate those with: > https://secure-web.cisco.com/18RdBO7ZKkAs5OiZMvPOj6vYNZ1vPzRv8-SvdzewuLLELpAKP_GeJnSYFbmSwvh2MVE53Rxi2uGYungYYyMlcCaXY3qglnQDjJXofyqjrQn93NUOrWOKhPXFfFDrFFnEjxSbUpj6zbch_4Xq6OPk3cZ0O3ccHUhM6k7wTXzXsZ46f0FqlhmUOnbz9MC6TlsLWiuDSVgJsSHEx6Pw1OkcIfDOGvfOqH2fSx9NTpZOSd-YGOFd-qklQ8znc-6UbGYd5uCaewG9Q5boaZcyXcC_Le94ZTpQ5mb-9Nswve4M-IPz3mjja9x29OM6VtgajzfsgOfin9Yh1gptx3OhF-0Q7BYYX_sT1uSBUCnoV6l-R1JAiAjEyiaAER2Xp-RLhw59c-XIaoMMZ6cHqQaeXro-zjqoyiyA9gaY-jMPVEoB4msJBvL2B092rkIMM4PKcR5H2/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.masswerk.at%2Fkeypunch%2F > > (But it doesn't do UTF-8.) > > -- gil > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
That's what the multipunch icon is for. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 11:45 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:39:47 -0700, Charles Mills wrote: >> thousands of punched cards with no real way to read them anymore > >In this day and age it should be pretty trivial to write software that would >encode a scanned image of a punched card. > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1nnNBEm7A_m0wqtAaLgflbbQkYcjHIggP4CG9-aGJ60iv5LGiLA3b-sgOj4Z5RrXqVoy9bO2GtA9gEMmiJEEw3pCD1XRrPeZQWJJCqaIyNbpg5ZWh8c6x0VeF0TZoxma_Otu7hIdTuq2ofjE708_dgI3S5MCKLcwE_xc7JJfzy8W5CbJtY1SkhkeYSprsqyo2yfbl5OHjUZJbTG2s7GXMFmD7YKxonbikH40zRCkbg_74GAPYOxAYOpwH8ZbsC3mCXT053D09iRwt8LrVy3YY5F2tKCLQ_NGXKUVBEpyITOgO3r2GL4CQhdxQNpIcd1pG8IKub1rEkNzpO2rEF2nrS-ZymxsdobgXvKJTRZ60DFakV-PzKE83Yo7EGjV4tJ_qLCTueYpoubnb8fjN2PfOc2QiDo5PI0UrPLcFhI0zKbq565EBcHShRAWIET5XHxxp/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.masswerk.at%2Fcardreader%2F ... and you can generate those with: https://secure-web.cisco.com/18RdBO7ZKkAs5OiZMvPOj6vYNZ1vPzRv8-SvdzewuLLELpAKP_GeJnSYFbmSwvh2MVE53Rxi2uGYungYYyMlcCaXY3qglnQDjJXofyqjrQn93NUOrWOKhPXFfFDrFFnEjxSbUpj6zbch_4Xq6OPk3cZ0O3ccHUhM6k7wTXzXsZ46f0FqlhmUOnbz9MC6TlsLWiuDSVgJsSHEx6Pw1OkcIfDOGvfOqH2fSx9NTpZOSd-YGOFd-qklQ8znc-6UbGYd5uCaewG9Q5boaZcyXcC_Le94ZTpQ5mb-9Nswve4M-IPz3mjja9x29OM6VtgajzfsgOfin9Yh1gptx3OhF-0Q7BYYX_sT1uSBUCnoV6l-R1JAiAjEyiaAER2Xp-RLhw59c-XIaoMMZ6cHqQaeXro-zjqoyiyA9gaY-jMPVEoB4msJBvL2B092rkIMM4PKcR5H2/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.masswerk.at%2Fkeypunch%2F (But it doesn't do UTF-8.) -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:39:47 -0700, Charles Mills wrote: >> thousands of punched cards with no real way to read them anymore > >In this day and age it should be pretty trivial to write software that would >encode a scanned image of a punched card. > https://www.masswerk.at/cardreader/ ... and you can generate those with: https://www.masswerk.at/keypunch/ (But it doesn't do UTF-8.) -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
> thousands of punched cards with no real way to read them anymore In this day and age it should be pretty trivial to write software that would encode a scanned image of a punched card. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mazer Ken G Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 8:35 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set Here's a site that may have more info for your reading pleasure, http://www.punchcardreader.com/ I have used this service to decode several hundred punched cards several years ago. The historical society that I'm a member of has thousands of punched cards with no real way to read them anymore. To compound not being able to read the punches these cards also contain handwritten data on each card. We have cards that contain train crew records, static data like employee name, employee number, employee phone number and other stuff. Handwritten data appears to be a months' worth of dates for when they worked that month/day. We also have cards that contain train movements. The punched data would be for a symbolled train and it starting location with time of call and a destination location. Handwritten info would include employees name for (Engineer, Fireman, Conductor, Flagman, Brakeman). All of these cards are from 1972-1975. My point is that punched cards were used for many different reasons and many different ways. If I remember correctly the Western Maryland Railway was one of the first if not the first railroad to incorporate the use of IBM computers and punched card. Ken Mazer Former President, WMRHS -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2020 10:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Punched cards and character set I have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions. As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on real punched cards. Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, whatever). Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read from DASD? Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so. And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the
Re: Punched cards and character set
The System/3 used 96-column cards that were physically smaller than Hollerith cards. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Farley, Peter x23353 Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 7:43 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set Radoslaw, In the IBM world, all possible EBCDIC characters (all 256) were possible to punch into physical cards, but punching any characters not on the keypunch machine's keyboard (like lower-case letters) required using the "multi-punch" key (or on older keypunch machines, physically holding the card in place so that punches did not advance the column position) to manually punch the necessary holes in one column. If you sent "object deck" output of the assembler or a compiler to a physical card punch peripheral you could punch all 256 characters into them. It was harder to do from a manual keypunch machine. There were alternate physical card formats for non-IBM environments. IIRC, Univac used a 96-column card with round holes instead of rectangular ones. I saw them once, but never got to work with them. I have been asking Google to find any documentation of the full encoding of punches to EBCDIC characters but haven't found anything relevant yet. Sorry, I don't have any actual JCL on physical punched cards any more. Somewhere in the attic I may have a box or two of blank ones, but nothing with punches. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Punched cards and character set I have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions. As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on real punched cards. Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, whatever). Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read from DASD? Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so. And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL. -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Here's a site that may have more info for your reading pleasure, http://www.punchcardreader.com/ I have used this service to decode several hundred punched cards several years ago. The historical society that I'm a member of has thousands of punched cards with no real way to read them anymore. To compound not being able to read the punches these cards also contain handwritten data on each card. We have cards that contain train crew records, static data like employee name, employee number, employee phone number and other stuff. Handwritten data appears to be a months' worth of dates for when they worked that month/day. We also have cards that contain train movements. The punched data would be for a symbolled train and it starting location with time of call and a destination location. Handwritten info would include employees name for (Engineer, Fireman, Conductor, Flagman, Brakeman). All of these cards are from 1972-1975. My point is that punched cards were used for many different reasons and many different ways. If I remember correctly the Western Maryland Railway was one of the first if not the first railroad to incorporate the use of IBM computers and punched card. Ken Mazer Former President, WMRHS -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2020 10:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Punched cards and character set I have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions. As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on real punched cards. Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, whatever). Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read from DASD? Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so. And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Well, if you had a 3525 and wanted to print on the output card then the encoding mattered, but only when it was up. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 16:19:45 +0200, R.S. wrote: > >Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched >card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read >from DASD? > I believe EBCDIC cards supported the full 256-character set. It was possible to have SYSPUNCH/SYSLIN on card, even DD *. Linkage Editor syntax guaranteed that "//" could not appear in 1-2. >Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the >same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but >as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, >pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) >Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP >037" or so. > I believe there was only one mapping from punch configurations to EBCDIC octets -- CCSID didn't matter. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
The IBM world did not begin with the S/360. Except for the late lamented 7030, IBM computers used either a two digit character code or a six bit character code. There was no way to encode more than 100 values on a 650 or 64 values on a 704. UNIVAC initially used 90 column cards; they never used 96. It was IBM that used 96 column card on the S/3. The assignment of hole combinations is in PoOps and the green card (of some color); I don't recall which editions. Bitsavers is your friend. As for the encoding of 8 bit values to EBCDIC characters, that's all over the landscape. GA27 -2837-9, IBM 3270 Information Display System Character Set Reference is a good starting point; it's not complete or the most recent, but it is available from bitsavers. I don't know whether the big code page manual is available online. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:43 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set Radoslaw, In the IBM world, all possible EBCDIC characters (all 256) were possible to punch into physical cards, but punching any characters not on the keypunch machine's keyboard (like lower-case letters) required using the "multi-punch" key (or on older keypunch machines, physically holding the card in place so that punches did not advance the column position) to manually punch the necessary holes in one column. If you sent "object deck" output of the assembler or a compiler to a physical card punch peripheral you could punch all 256 characters into them. It was harder to do from a manual keypunch machine. There were alternate physical card formats for non-IBM environments. IIRC, Univac used a 96-column card with round holes instead of rectangular ones. I saw them once, but never got to work with them. I have been asking Google to find any documentation of the full encoding of punches to EBCDIC characters but haven't found anything relevant yet. Sorry, I don't have any actual JCL on physical punched cards any more. Somewhere in the attic I may have a box or two of blank ones, but nothing with punches. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Punched cards and character set I have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions. As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on real punched cards. Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, whatever). Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read from DASD? Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so. And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL. -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 07:49:30 -0700, Charles Mills wrote: >https://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/codes.html Charles Or, perhaps: https://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/codes.html Blame the iPhone? > Original message From: "Farley, Peter x23353" > Date: 6/2/20 7:43 AM (GMT-08:00) To: >IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set >Radoslaw,In the IBM world, all possible EBCDIC characters (all 256) were >possible to punch into physical cards, but punching any characters not on the >keypunch machine's keyboard (like lower-case letters) required using the >"multi-punch" key (or on older keypunch machines, physically holding the card >in place so that punches did not advance the column position) to manually >punch the necessary holes in one column.If you sent "object deck" output of >the assembler or a compiler to a physical card punch peripheral you could >punch all 256 characters into them. It was harder to do from a manual >keypunch machine.There were alternate physical card formats for non-IBM >environments. IIRC, Univac used a 96-column card with round holes instead of >rectangular ones. I saw them once, but never got to work with them.I have >been asking Google to find any documentation of the full encoding of punches >to EBCDIC characters but haven't found anything relevant yet.Sorry, I don't >have any actual JCL on physical punched cards any more. Somewhere in the >attic I may have a box or two of blank ones, but nothing with >punches.Peter-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > On Behalf Of R.S.Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:20 >AMTo: ibm-m...@listserv.ua.EDUSubject: Punched cards and character setI have >never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions.As far as I know, a >character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or >similar set of 256 characters.Of course that means some limitations for DD * >datasets - if coded on real punched cards.Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept >every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for >delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system >(JES2, Interpreter, whatever).Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD >* limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the >job was read from DASD?Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it >always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several >character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines >(Remington,pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.)Was there any name for card character >set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so.And another question, or rather kind >request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to >get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I >have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL.--This message and any >attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain >information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message >is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended >recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this >communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication >in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and >any attachments from your >system.--For > IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,send email to >lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
First, my experience is limited to Holerith (80 column) cards; no 90 column or 96 column cards. Before S/360 there were several different encodings, both as to what hole combinations corresponded to what characters and as to what characters corresponded to what numbers. The decimal machines used 2 digit numbers for characters and the binary machines used 6 bit numbers. Roughly speaking there were two character sets: commercial and scientific. The commercial character set had Per Cent and Lozenge for the same punch combinations that were Parentheses in the scientific character set. When IBM introduced S/360, the card equipment could handle either EBCDIC or column binary. There was never a S/360 card reader that was limited to 6 bit characters. Unless the JCL for the Reader/Interpreter specified column binary, which would not work (it required keywords in the range C1-E9), instream data could include any of the 256 EBCDIC characters. Yes, there was a time when you couldn't have a delimitor card in an instream data set, but IBM added a DLM keyword to the DD statement in OS/360 (I don't remember the release.) This was well before JES2 and JES3. Q!: the input was limited to the punched card character set because that character set included all 256 8 bit values. Q2:: The mapping from hole combinations to 8 bit values was always the same. There were several different EBCDIC code pages. There really was no character set for card equipment on S/360; only when the 3525 introduced printing on the card being punched did character set become relevant. There were names for print chains, print trains and UCS images. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl] Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:19 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Punched cards and character set I have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions. As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on real punched cards. Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, whatever). Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read from DASD? Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so. And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,http://secure-web.cisco.com/1E1R3ITvHC08ro0JBRfgu4T0ShCuFSSlySvwA7_Nu5Gk3Gl8W-cYJS2kV-5KVgJLVmPKADmwKIvpGa4pQq2vbuQdu3WvBCu2xSmL3w1awUIISyw7Y_iA_SqHrrbYuqFrpZnCa2FjpFDtlpOWZQJiF54iwBHiIh-bLcTEkLT9YhlrESPu4ZjU2qtnxGeKDGGv6r8cABNjV744nF8ICWwJXbfyBSh2baYI7ClB_kZpBy5dFo0aVPI18lhKJkH4wRJPxvc9yWXauY18q6LmwQ-HnaI0W4ovsHa_xRRpfYwecDEY1wq752RWLDAfHIsB_SRM1MIpIsJXkX7wiaKbfmVZAmIOb8pN5B4QikePQCam7BTNhZq5zuDPGFl9XiTW1we0CRardTLpacB5yq5ZguleYT4z4DFU99uxN8jaiuLpvoe2XNYvAJssUoWCcetkn1i2m/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar actio
Re: Punched cards and character set
https://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/codes.html Charles Original message From: "Farley, Peter x23353" Date: 6/2/20 7:43 AM (GMT-08:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Punched cards and character set Radoslaw,In the IBM world, all possible EBCDIC characters (all 256) were possible to punch into physical cards, but punching any characters not on the keypunch machine's keyboard (like lower-case letters) required using the "multi-punch" key (or on older keypunch machines, physically holding the card in place so that punches did not advance the column position) to manually punch the necessary holes in one column.If you sent "object deck" output of the assembler or a compiler to a physical card punch peripheral you could punch all 256 characters into them. It was harder to do from a manual keypunch machine.There were alternate physical card formats for non-IBM environments. IIRC, Univac used a 96-column card with round holes instead of rectangular ones. I saw them once, but never got to work with them.I have been asking Google to find any documentation of the full encoding of punches to EBCDIC characters but haven't found anything relevant yet.Sorry, I don't have any actual JCL on physical punched cards any more. Somewhere in the attic I may have a box or two of blank ones, but nothing with punches.Peter-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of R.S.Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:20 AMTo: ibm-m...@listserv.ua.EDUSubject: Punched cards and character setI have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions.As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters.Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on real punched cards.Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, whatever).Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read from DASD?Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington,pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.)Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so.And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL.--This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system.--For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Radoslaw, In the IBM world, all possible EBCDIC characters (all 256) were possible to punch into physical cards, but punching any characters not on the keypunch machine's keyboard (like lower-case letters) required using the "multi-punch" key (or on older keypunch machines, physically holding the card in place so that punches did not advance the column position) to manually punch the necessary holes in one column. If you sent "object deck" output of the assembler or a compiler to a physical card punch peripheral you could punch all 256 characters into them. It was harder to do from a manual keypunch machine. There were alternate physical card formats for non-IBM environments. IIRC, Univac used a 96-column card with round holes instead of rectangular ones. I saw them once, but never got to work with them. I have been asking Google to find any documentation of the full encoding of punches to EBCDIC characters but haven't found anything relevant yet. Sorry, I don't have any actual JCL on physical punched cards any more. Somewhere in the attic I may have a box or two of blank ones, but nothing with punches. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Punched cards and character set I have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions. As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on real punched cards. Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, whatever). Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read from DASD? Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so. And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL. -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 16:19:45 +0200, R.S. wrote: > >Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched >card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read >from DASD? > I believe EBCDIC cards supported the full 256-character set. It was possible to have SYSPUNCH/SYSLIN on card, even DD *. Linkage Editor syntax guaranteed that "//" could not appear in 1-2. >Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the >same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but >as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, >pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) >Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP >037" or so. > I believe there was only one mapping from punch configurations to EBCDIC octets -- CCSID didn't matter. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Punched cards and character set
Hollerith code - used to have a template to read the punched cards that didn't have the characters printed along the top ( above each punched column ) Bruce Lightsey Database Manager MS Department of Information Technology Services 601-432-8144 | www.its.ms.gov DISCLAIMER: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 9:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Punched cards and character set I have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions. As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on real punched cards. Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, whatever). Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read from DASD? Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so. And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Punched cards and character set
I have never used punched cards, so forgive me my questions. As far as I know, a character set on punched cards was somehow limited, so it is not EBCDIC or similar set of 256 characters. Of course that means some limitations for DD * datasets - if coded on real punched cards. Nowadays I'm pretty sure DD * accept every possible character, as any other dataset (with some exception for delimiter). Note, it is program independent - this is a change within system (JES2, Interpreter, whatever). Q1: how it was in the past? I mean, were the DD * limited to "punched card" character set? Or it was always full EBCDIC if the job was read from DASD? Q2: What about character set on the cards? Was it always one and the same within S/360 family? I noted there were several character sets, but as far as I understand those set was for other machines (Remington, pre-S360 IBM machines, etc.) Was there any name for card character set? I mean something like "CP 037" or so. And another question, or rather kind request: Does anynone have JCL statements on punched cards? I would like to get/download some images of JOB, EXEC, and DD statements on punched cards. I have a lot of card pictures, but none with JCL. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
