Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)

2018-05-15 Thread Seymour J Metz 
> if there are only two options (CLIST & Rexx) which would you choose?

"Remember that after Heracles cleaned up the Augean stables, he killed the man 
who asked him to." Robert Townsend, "Up The Organization.

I'd choose REXX as long as I didn't need anything fancy from the stack. Second 
choice is REXX with freedom to write REXX-aware external functions in HLASM.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of 
Edward Gould <edgould1...@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 10:09 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the 
language)

> On May 15, 2018, at 8:34 AM, Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA) <lionel.d...@va.gov> wrote:
>
> While I agree that REXX is more appropriate for smaller projects - there are 
> tradeoffs. If an application is going to be used frequently (100's of times 
> per day) and performance is important then don't use REXX. If an application 
> is going to be used less frequently, or there is a need to be able to easily 
> and quickly update it, then REXX is excellent for that purpose. REXX allows 
> you to prototype an application, and if it works adequately then it may be 
> better to leave it in REXX than to rewrite it.
>
> Just my $0.01

Lionel:
 I agree pretty much with you, if there are only two options (CLIST & Rexx) 
which would you choose?

Ed


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)

2018-05-15 Thread Chris Hoelscher 
Isn’t there an option to run REXX or CLIST in deTEST MODE

Chris Hoelscher
Technology Architect, Database Infrastructure Services
Technology Solution Services
Humana Inc.
123 East Main Street
Louisville, KY 40202
Humana.com
(502) 476-2538 or 407-7266

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Gord Tomlin
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 10:29 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX 
(the language)

On 2018-05-15 10:09, Edward Gould wrote:
> I agree pretty much with you, if there are only two options (CLIST & Rexx) 
> which would you choose?

If the choice was CLIST, I'd be starting a thread, "Heretic alert: I really 
detest TSO CLIST (the language)"

--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)

2018-05-15 Thread Gord Tomlin 

On 2018-05-15 10:09, Edward Gould wrote:

I agree pretty much with you, if there are only two options (CLIST & Rexx) 
which would you choose?


If the choice was CLIST, I'd be starting a thread, "Heretic alert: I 
really detest TSO CLIST (the language)"


--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)

2018-05-15 Thread Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA) 
Hmmm - CLIST or REXX

I'd go with REXX. The primary reason is that the CLIST skill set just doesn't 
seem to be there. I know CLIST has some advantages over REXX in a few areas 
there are things that REXX can do that CLIST can't and one of those is that it 
is a much cleaner language to read and understand, and thus to pick up.

Again my $0.01

--
Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor)  <
Mainframe Systems Programmer - RavenTek Solution Partners


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Edward Gould
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 9:09 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the 
language)

> On May 15, 2018, at 8:34 AM, Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA) <lionel.d...@va.gov> wrote:
> 
> While I agree that REXX is more appropriate for smaller projects - there are 
> tradeoffs. If an application is going to be used frequently (100's of times 
> per day) and performance is important then don't use REXX. If an application 
> is going to be used less frequently, or there is a need to be able to easily 
> and quickly update it, then REXX is excellent for that purpose. REXX allows 
> you to prototype an application, and if it works adequately then it may be 
> better to leave it in REXX than to rewrite it.
> 
> Just my $0.01

Lionel:
 I agree pretty much with you, if there are only two options (CLIST & Rexx) 
which would you choose?

Ed


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)

2018-05-15 Thread Edward Gould 
> On May 15, 2018, at 8:34 AM, Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA)  wrote:
> 
> While I agree that REXX is more appropriate for smaller projects - there are 
> tradeoffs. If an application is going to be used frequently (100's of times 
> per day) and performance is important then don't use REXX. If an application 
> is going to be used less frequently, or there is a need to be able to easily 
> and quickly update it, then REXX is excellent for that purpose. REXX allows 
> you to prototype an application, and if it works adequately then it may be 
> better to leave it in REXX than to rewrite it.
> 
> Just my $0.01

Lionel:
 I agree pretty much with you, if there are only two options (CLIST & Rexx) 
which would you choose?

Ed


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)

2018-05-15 Thread Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA) 
While I agree that REXX is more appropriate for smaller projects - there are 
tradeoffs. If an application is going to be used frequently (100's of times per 
day) and performance is important then don't use REXX. If an application is 
going to be used less frequently, or there is a need to be able to easily and 
quickly update it, then REXX is excellent for that purpose. REXX allows you to 
prototype an application, and if it works adequately then it may be better to 
leave it in REXX than to rewrite it.

Just my $0.01

--
Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor)  <
Mainframe Systems Programmer – RavenTek Solution Partners

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Charles Mills
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 8:29 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)

I am definitely a Rexx fan but I have to agree that the necessity for hacks 
like these does not speak well for the language.

While one can write 40,000 line applications in Rexx -- pretty amazing for what 
is basically a .BAT file language -- I think perhaps the larger the application 
the less suitable Rexx is to the task. Rexx is at its best in the 3 to 300 line 
range. IMHO

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of David Crayford
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 9:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)

On 15/05/2018 12:52 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> On Mon, 14 May 2018 13:52:53 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote:
>> This strongly suggests being rigorous with tail naming: I use leading
>> underscores for non-variable tails:
>>
>> G._Logging
>>
>> and then never use any local variables with leading underscores (yes,
>> _Logging is a valid variable name). An easy convention to follow, and makes
>> it easy to tell the difference between:

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)

2018-05-11 Thread Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA) 
Couldn't you do Address XYZ and then have commands that XYZ understands?

--
Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor)  <
Mainframe Systems Programmer – RavenTek Solution Partners


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Kirk Wolf
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)

It would be nice to have a choice of scripting languages like on other
platforms.

Isn't a big obstacle on z/OS the fact that TSO doesn't have a generalized
interface for invoking a "command" in an arbitrary scripting language and
then providing it with a command processing (and/or ISPF) interface?

What if the TSO command interface that handles REXX/CLIST could recognize
shebangs to support other script processors, which would be local-spawned
in the TSO address space and be given a TSO Command processing environment?

Who knows, maybe get crazy and allow TSO command/script processing from
zFS.   With mixed case > 8 characters!


Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com

On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 1:30 PM, David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm at a loss as to why anybody would use OOREXX on platforms where there
> are a multitude of better languages to chose from. If it's because of
> familiarity coming from z/OS or z/VM then I would
> advise them to take the time to learn something new. Most modern scripting
> languages can be picked up in less then a day.
>
>
>
> On 12/05/2018 12:13 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
>> I/O? The ANSI stream I/O functions are in OOREXX, as are equivalent
>> methods.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf
>> of John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 12:07 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>> Subject: Re: Heretic alert: I really detest TSO REXX (the language)
>>
>> On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 10:41 AM, Kirk Wolf <k...@dovetail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I said it.  I remember how fond I was of REXX when I first
>>> discovered
>>> it VM/CMS in the 1980s, when big hair and mullets were also great.
>>>
>>> Sure, on the surface it seems like a user friendly scripting language,
>>> but
>>> IMO that is only true if you compare it to JCL, CLIST, RPGII, and Windows
>>> "BAT".  It does look much easier than the classic Unix shell, but not so
>>> much in practice.
>>>
>>> I recognize that many here have learned it really well and don't have to
>>> think about all of the pitfalls and landmines.   But please don't try to
>>> tell new mainframers who have learned modern scripting languages how nice
>>> it is :-)
>>>
>>> The good:
>>>
>>> - it is on every z/OS system,  and it has a good set of system interfaces
>>> ("environments")
>>> - it does have case-sensitive variable names, which maybe some people
>>> don't
>>> like ;-)
>>>
>>> The bad:
>>>
>>> - a single data type (string)
>>> - limited control flow statements; lack of short-cut boolean expressions
>>> - compound variables - the only data structure you'll ever need?
>>> - weird handling of undefined/omitted variables/args
>>> - variable name scopes?
>>> - packages/namespaces/libraries?
>>> - purports to follow the principle of "least surprise", but I often find
>>> the opposite
>>> - slow (although that really isn't a language criticism)
>>>
>>> ​TSO REXX needs to be allowed to quietly retire to a placid village
>> somewhere; turning the reigns of scripting on TSO & UNIX to "Object
>> Oriented REXX" (oorexx). Of course OOREXX would need to be enhanced with
>> the addition of ADDRESS TSO and ADDRESS SYSCALL as well as some way to do
>> I/O to z/OS data sets. I don't really care for EXECIO, but it is
>> acceptable.
>>
>>
>> ref: http://secure-web.cisco.com/1h-uqbWNXqq1CuCFKDqzvqcBgRLzHQhO
>> Jdj2QPbZDjibdycV5-gSQ4zBsxF-ySP4yE3Gnt8Ci7-gFOQl1o0QfWxnGLIA
>> nOWtWwjFiWyUO6_oelF6zzlfdVJQGh93pcQfmj1CKFH1yFltii1H6D55GHVq
>> hlsQI5G4T4c_fzxq5jUS8tGqqG5f8RAtojricobH62fLXMveqVtA58NnnyEI
>> 8J5ZFDLn1euLi04N_1B_wwkslkM66qjWZUUUgKLQa9ysGVaz_dSEPSqD4Jy8
>> wDlXsjlYE5gs0zv8KMeW2NdylohDK5PH2h3D1BO5nS9Xy3MWHsivQyqjUZNL
>> c