Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

I just notice your mail and thought I should respond given that you may have misunderstood something in this email conversation or in one of my responses. When a working group works on a specific problem then they get requirements from many different sources. Some of these requirements may be p

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

Todd, This is totally confused and you are completely wrong. Under the Federal Election Campaign Act, an organization becomes a "political committee" by receiving contributions or making expenditures in excess of $1,000 for the purpose o

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On 3/23/2011 12:02 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: On Mar 23, 2011, at 6:52 AM, SM wrote: The IETF can only address the technical problems. This is an argument I often hear. I do, however, believe that you cannot see technology in isolation. Yeah - sure you can... if you want to be totally about

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

Hi Joel, RFC 2804 "IETF Policy on Wiretapping" was written by the IESG and the IAB. >From the abstract: The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) has been asked to take a position on the inclusion into IETF standards-track documents of functionality designed to facilitate wiretapping

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On 3/23/2011 12:02 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: On Mar 23, 2011, at 6:52 AM, SM wrote: The IETF can only address the technical problems. This is an argument I often hear. I do, however, believe that you cannot see technology in isolation. That's because you are being a political animal and

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On 22.03.2011 18:53, Dean Willis wrote: > On Mar 22, 2011, at 10:23 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >> I think the IETF must substantiate its position against wiretapping by >> providing alternative practical means to counter crime. > > Weak security doesn't counter crime -- it creates it. For exam

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On Mar 23, 2011, at 6:52 AM, SM wrote: > The IETF can only address the technical problems. This is an argument I often hear. I do, however, believe that you cannot see technology in isolation. However, in many cases the technology, regulatory environment, business aspects, and the social c

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

Hi Alessandro, At 08:23 22-03-2011, Alessandro Vesely wrote: messaging system. I agree that current Internet mail, with its one-figure legitimate traffic percentage, is a conspicuous representative of IETF's hall of shame. There are many things that might be suitable for the IETF's hall of sh

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On Mar 22, 2011, at 10:23 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > I'm sorry I'm late, this thread was in my backlog. We now have an obscurity-inter...@ietf.org list for further discussion if you wish to join us there. > > On 12.03.2011 19:48, Dean Willis wrote: >> On a related note, we've developed w

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On 3/22/11 8:23 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > I think the IETF must substantiate its position against wiretapping by > providing alternative practical means to counter crime. Failing to do so > would recast ourselves as proposers of Utopian designs. And, yes, after more > than a decade of spam s

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

I'm sorry I'm late, this thread was in my backlog. On 12.03.2011 19:48, Dean Willis wrote: > On a related note, we've developed what we think is a secured mail > protocol suite. Yet we don't use it, instead subjecting our list members > (and more so the administrators) to having to deal with an en

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On Mar 14, 2011, at 5:17 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > Privacy and obscurity are tools that cut both ways. It can protect legitimate > communications from evil regimes, but it can also shield illegal behavior > from the law, or privacy violations commited by applications, or services > r

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On 5 mrt 2011, at 5:06, Dean Willis wrote: > 1) Privacy and Integrity: We believe that intermediaries should be neither > able to understand nor alter the transmitted material without the explicit > consent and awareness of the users. > 2) Privacy and Obscurity: We believe that observation of

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On Mar 11, 2011, at 7:13 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> I'm also okay with air-dropping satellite terminals and television receivers >> to their victims, and with beaming high-power wireless signals across their >> borders in order to speed things up. > > And how likely are those things to ac

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On Mar 11, 2011, at 7:13 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> You mean some third-world (or soon to be) junta-dictator might officially >> and deliberately cut their economy off from the world's communication >> networks, thereby insuring economic failure, rather than suffer the risk >> that thei

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On 11/03/2011, at 5:07 PM, Dean Willis wrote: > > On Mar 10, 2011, at 12:31 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> >> >> This will have the effect of isolating some companies and countries from the >> Internet. Is that a good outcome? > > > You mean some third-world (or soon to be) junta-dictator m

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On Mar 10, 2011, at 12:31 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> > > This will have the effect of isolating some companies and countries from the > Internet. Is that a good outcome? You mean some third-world (or soon to be) junta-dictator might officially and deliberately cut their economy off from t

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

One of the hidden costs of the crypto wars was that we ended up making design decisions on the basis of what choice would cause most difficulty for Louis Freeh rather than what would best meet the needs of end users. One consequence of this was an absolutist rejection of key escrow in any and all

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

+1 Thanks, Henry On 3/10/11 12:24 PM, "Ted Hardie" wrote: > On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Ed Juskevicius wrote: >> I also recall a Plenary presentation during IETF 57 in Vienna which >> suggested a reversal in the IETF's previous stance on this topic. >> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/57/

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On 04/03/2011, at 8:06 PM, Dean Willis wrote: [snip] > Every document we now produce has a "Security Considerations". I hereby > propose the following extensions to that section, such that each > specification requiring a meaningful Security Considerations section MUST > address the followin

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Ed Juskevicius wrote: > I also recall a Plenary presentation during IETF 57 in Vienna which > suggested a reversal in the IETF's previous stance on this topic. > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/57/slides/plenary-10.pdf > > If my memory serves me correctly, I believ

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

I also recall a Plenary presentation during IETF 57 in Vienna which suggested a reversal in the IETF's previous stance on this topic. http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/57/slides/plenary-10.pdf If my memory serves me correctly, I believe the logic was along the lines of "Law enforcement agencies requ

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

Actually, this discussion has been going on for longer than so-far referenced docs show. One of my favourite RFCs on the subject: RFC 2804 "IETF Policy on Wiretapping." IAB, IESG. May 2000. The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) has been asked to take a position on the inclusion into

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

I am rather skeptical. At this point the secret is out and the potential of the Internet and the Web is rather too well understood. Documenting the privacy issues raised may well serve more to provide dictators with ideas than actionable advice and even if the recommendations are actionable there

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

Hi Dean, At 20:06 04-03-2011, Dean Willis wrote: I just came across what may be old news to many of you. The July 2007 issue of IEEE Spectrum included an article entitled "The Athens Affair", subtitled "How Some Extremely Smart Hackers Pulled Off The Most Audacious Cell-Network Break-in Ever".

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/06/2011 12:52 PM, Dean Willis wrote: > Marc suggested: > > > I any case, may I suggest a Bar BOF in Prague? Plotting revolutions in > coffeehouses is a very old tradition. > > > Excellent idea. Perhaps this should be plotted over j

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

Marc suggested: > I any case, may I suggest a Bar BOF in Prague? Plotting revolutions in > coffeehouses is a very old tradition. > Excellent idea. Perhaps this should be plotted over jasmine tea instead of coffee... The point I really want to stress is that we must stop deliberately designing

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > I any case, may I suggest a Bar BOF in Prague? Plotting revolutions in > coffeehouses is a very old tradition. > I am told that http://www.cafeslavia.cz/ was a popular hangout for Czech revolutionaries. ___

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

Am 06.03.2011 um 16:52 schrieb Marc Petit-Huguenin: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/04/2011 08:06 PM, Dean Willis wrote: I just came across what may be old news to many of you. The July 2007 issue of IEEE Spectrum included an article entitled "The Athens Affair", subt

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/04/2011 08:06 PM, Dean Willis wrote: > > I just came across what may be old news to many of you. The July 2007 issue > of IEEE Spectrum included an article entitled "The Athens Affair", subtitled > "How Some Extremely Smart Hackers Pulled Off

Re: Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

Hi Dean, you may want to look at the following two documents: 1) "The Role of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) in Improving Privacy on the Internet" http://www.w3.org/2010/api-privacy-ws/papers/privacy-ws-32.pdf by Jon Peterson, Neustar; Hannes Tschofenig, Nokia Siemens Networks; Bern

Call for a Jasmine Revolution in the IETF: Privacy, Integrity, Obscurity

I just came across what may be old news to many of you. The July 2007 issue of IEEE Spectrum included an article entitled "The Athens Affair", subtitled "How Some Extremely Smart Hackers Pulled Off The Most Audacious Cell-Network Break-in Ever". In short, perpetrators appear to have accessed th