Oh lets just hold the next meeting on the train itself and save the arguing.
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On May 25, 2009, at 4:09 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
The Hague, largest room: 2161 (30 min by train from Schiphol + tram
or taxi)
http://www.worldforumcc.com/wfcc/uk/factsfigures_uk/capaciteitenov_uk.html
The Hague is easy to get to. I attended an ISOC meeting there last
fall, and
On 25 mei 2009, at 23:33, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
Of all the people who have to travel to this meeting, I would not have
imagined that you would be the one to complain.
It just doesn't make sense to me to meet in places that are that hard
to reach. I've skipped San Diego for exactly this reason
on behalf of Iljitsch van Beijnum
Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 4:10 AM
To: Ole Jacobsen
Cc: IETF Discussion
Subject: Re: IETF 78 Annoucement
On 25 mei 2009, at 23:33, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
Of all the people who have to travel to this meeting, I would not have
imagined that you would be the one to complain
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:10 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum
iljit...@muada.com wrote:
On 25 mei 2009, at 23:33, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
Of all the people who have to travel to this meeting, I would not have
imagined that you would be the one to complain.
It just doesn't make sense to me to meet in
On Tue, 26 May 2009, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
It just doesn't make sense to me to meet in places that are that hard to
reach. I've skipped San Diego for exactly this reason in the past and I'm not
sure I'll be going to Hiroshima.
Neither are hard to reach, that's just your own
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On 26 mei 2009, at 23:33, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
However, the Netherlands only has a single airport with decent
connections and ground transportation. For those of us traveling to
IETF-78 from within Europe it's still doable (probably have
Frankfurt airport Is probably your worst choice. Although there are
lots of international flights, the train connection to Maastricht is
poor. There is a 1 stopover train via Utrecht which takes 5:21 and a 3
stopover journey that takes 4:25
According the DB, the 3-connection ride is actually
- Original Message -
From: Ole Jacobsen o...@cisco.com
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum iljit...@muada.com
Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand har...@alvestrand.no; IETF Discussion
ietf@ietf.org
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: IETF 78 Annoucement
I don't know why you think moving
On May 25, 2009, at 4:56 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
With a train, you have to pick the correct train, and then leave
the train at the correct stop. A bit more complicated to be honest.
By interacting with people, you often can handle the most
complicated train ride, but yes, it might be
Hi, Antoin,
This was quite tranquilizing. Thank you for posting.
I haven't been an adventurous traveler in Europe, but did have a nice
day-long train trip from Amsterdam (SHIM6 interim) to Paris (Softwires
interim) a couple of years ago, and that was OK. So I think there's hope.
On the
On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Ole Jacobsen o...@cisco.com wrote:
Coming from Tokyo to Minneapolis isn't exactly a single hop either if
you want to consider another case.
Actually, it is a single hop. There is daily non-stop service from Tokyo to MSP:
On Sun, 24 May 2009, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
Not sure if making attending IETF meetings as difficult as possible
is a winning strategy.
But at least this venue is not as difficult as possible.
For comparison, consider Mar del Plata, Argentina, the venue for the
April 2005 ICANN
Verschuren
CC: IETF Discussion
Onderwerp: RE: IETF 78 Annoucement
Frankfurt airport Is probably your worst choice. Although there are
lots of international flights, the train connection to Maastricht is
poor. There is a 1 stopover train via Utrecht which takes 5:21 and a 3
stopover journey
Subject: Re: IETF 78 Annoucement Date: Tue, May 26, 2009 at 03:04:13PM +0200
Quoting Tom.Petch (sisyp...@dial.pipex.com):
So May, delightful, June, pleasant, July, nightmare. I wonder if that is why
RIPE meet in May.
RIPE meets in May to get to sample Koninginnedag -- indeed an experience
Antoin,
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 03:45:20PM +0200, Antoin Verschuren wrote:
Paris Charles de Gaulle airport
Is a reasonable alternative if your airline doesn't do Amsterdam or Brussels.
The train journey to Maastricht will take you approx 3,5 hours, and includes
2 stopovers.
First from
On 25 maj 2009, at 01.15, Fred Baker wrote:
With all due respect to the participants in this thread, the one-hop
dogma is pretty self-centric. I understand it, but I would really
prefer that folks thought in terms of one hub-hub hop with a
potential leg at each end. For many of us, that is
Wow. Time for a reality check. So, we've gone from a discussion of
additional travel time in the 2-4 hour range to an entire lost day
in the USD 1000 range for someone on your side of the Atlantic??
I hate to sound sarcastic, but last time I checked, we are not a group
of in-court lawyers,
At 04:44 PM 5/24/2009, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
I would
hardly characterize a 3-4 hour train journey as problematic if you
consider what other venues the IETF historically has used.
Hi Ole -
That's a 3-4 hour train journey with 3 changes (and a cab ride at the end? not
sure where the venue is
On 25 maj 2009, at 08.43, Michael StJohns wrote:
That's a 3-4 hour train journey with 3 changes (and a cab ride at
the end? not sure where the venue is relative to the train station).
It is 3 changes from FRA, on one of the routes, but no changes from
AMS or BRU.
paf
PGP.sig
Mike,
Why is it harder, i.e., more problematic to fly to Amsterdam (assume
for the sake of the argument that this is one hop) and then take ONE
train to Maastrich from the airport train station, compared to me
flying SFO-ORD wait an hour and then fly ORD-MSP?
The 3 changes was assuming you
think that Minneapolis is incovenient, it's not one hop from San
It is from Amsterdam, the only place worth living anyway.
I like the new long planning for the IETF. Gives people more time for
whining.
jaap
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John C Klensin wrote:
--On Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:02 PM -0700 Dave CROCKER dcroc...@bbiw.net
wrote:
What do you think the incremental cost is, for making 1000
senior engineers people take an additional 8 hours (4 each
way) and pay for an additional leg of travel.
I'm not quite sure how a
On 25 mei 2009, at 1:15, Fred Baker wrote:
SBA-LAX-AMS-Den Hague, the last hop in both cases being by train
instead of an airplane.
('s-Gravenhage, Den Haag, The Hague, La Haye, La Haya but
not Den Hague.)
Yes, but that's a 30 minute train ride (to Amsterdam is 15 from the
airport),
It took me three flights and about 35 or so hours of travel to get to
the Adelaide meeting, but that didn't keep me away. Grow up, people -
it's one trip out of your life! Go with the flow and enjoy it
Cheers,
Andy
On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum
iljit...@muada.com
Andrew G. Malis wrote:
It took me three flights and about 35 or so hours of travel to get to
the Adelaide meeting, but that didn't keep me away. Grow up, people -
it's one trip out of your life! Go with the flow and enjoy it
I think it really depends. It usually takes me
three flights to
Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
And as I said before, I would be very interested to learn whether
doing this in june rather than july would have made a different
location in the Netherlands a more viable option.
ICANN's holding its Latin America meeting June 20-25. Guess why they
chose those
On 25 mei 2009, at 16:15, Harald Alvestrand wrote:
And as I said before, I would be very interested to learn whether
doing this in june rather than july would have made a different
location in the Netherlands a more viable option.
ICANN's holding its Latin America meeting June 20-25. Guess
Iljitsch van Beijnum skrev:
On 25 mei 2009, at 16:15, Harald Alvestrand wrote:
And as I said before, I would be very interested to learn whether
doing this in june rather than july would have made a different
location in the Netherlands a more viable option.
ICANN's holding its Latin
On 25 mei 2009, at 16:56, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:
spoon-feeding:
by figuring out when the IETF meeting is and placing its own meeting
at least 1, preferably at least 2, weeks away.
Right, because I obviously asked about the difference in possibilities
between july and june
For better or for worse, several years ago, in reaction to the
difficulty people were having attending IETF meetings due to the late
announcement of meeting dates and/or clashes with other groups, the
decision was made to build a comprehensive do-not-clash list and
announce meeting dates as far in
I don't know why you think moving the meeting to June will make more
facilities available in Europe. July-August is the traditional
vacation season and hence off season for conferences. The extreme
example might be IETF in Paris which one could argue suffered slightly
from the fact that Paris
On 25 mei 2009, at 18:09, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
I don't know why you think moving the meeting to June will make more
facilities available in Europe. July-August is the traditional
vacation season and hence off season for conferences.
That's a good point. However, I was thinking of hotels, which
Hi Ole -
You actually are answering questions I didn't ask. What I asked was which
IETF meetings did you find problematic and why? One of the reasons I'm asking
is because of your IAOC membership. I'm just curious what your thresholds are
for travel pain (and how and maybe even why they
On Mon, 25 May 2009, Michael StJohns wrote:
Hi Ole -
You actually are answering questions I didn't ask. What I asked was
which IETF meetings did you find problematic and why? One of the
reasons I'm asking is because of your IAOC membership. I'm just
curious what your thresholds are
On 25 maj 2009, at 20.15, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
Yes, changing to a train is slightly different from going from
Terminal A
gate 5 to Terminal D gate 27, but so what?
One difference is that a plane is quite easy to use. You have someone
that will (at least this has happened to me) stop you if
At 02:15 PM 5/25/2009, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
Right, well the Internet has improved availability of this info,
besides you would expect a local host to provide the most crucial
bits
Mostly they do and it's - Get off the plane, grab your luggage and take a taxi
or bus to the hotel or occasionally
On 25 mei 2009, at 20:15, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
Well, my suggestion would be to spend a night in a hotel and tackle
the wonderful world of train travel the next day when you are rested.
How the above is more painful than connecting flights (subject to more
irregularities and weather delays etc)
Iljitsch,
As I said, a given conference facility (which *could* be in a hotel,
but you have precious few that size in NL) has to have:
* Enough meeting roomS (that's S as in plural, rooms, we do paralell
sessions at the IETF). And a large one for the plenary of course.
* Enough hotel rooms
On Mon, 25 May 2009, Patrik F?ltstr?m wrote:
One difference is that a plane is quite easy to use. You have someone that
will (at least this has happened to me) stop you if you try to enter the wrong
flight. Then the plane moves, and when it arrived everyone have to exit. With
a train, you
Seems to be time to start the 78attend...@ietf.org list.
- RL Bob
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--On Monday, May 25, 2009 9:47 PM +0200 Patrik Fältström
p...@cisco.com wrote:
One difference is that a plane is quite easy to use. You have
someone that will (at least this has happened to me) stop you
if you try to enter the wrong flight. Then the plane moves,
and when it arrived everyone
John C Klensin wrote:
--On Monday, May 25, 2009 9:47 PM +0200 Patrik Fältström p...@cisco.com
wrote:
One difference is that a plane is quite easy to use. You have
someone that will (at least this has happened to me) stop you
if you try to enter the wrong flight. Then the plane moves,
and
On 22 mei 2009, at 16:55, Ray Pelletier wrote:
The IAOC is pleased to announce the beautiful, historic city of
Maastricht in the Netherlands as the site for IETF 78 from July 25 -
30, 2010.
Beautiful, historic and nowhere near a reasonably-sized airport.
It takes a 3 hour train ride
--On Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:57 PM +0200 Iljitsch van Beijnum
iljit...@muada.com wrote:
On 22 mei 2009, at 16:55, Ray Pelletier wrote:
The IAOC is pleased to announce the beautiful, historic city
of Maastricht in the Netherlands as the site for IETF 78
from July 25 - 30, 2010.
but often concluded that it is less important than other concerns
As long as the host gets to choose the venue, other concerns will remain
secondary, including incremental travel time and cost.
This was the key point that was, once again, explored the last time we had a
plenary
--On Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:42 AM -0700 Dave CROCKER
d...@dcrocker.net wrote:
but often concluded that it is less important than other
concerns
As long as the host gets to choose the venue, other concerns
will remain secondary, including incremental travel time and
cost.
This was
For a German, the most intuitive way to get to Maastricht would actually be
to go through Cologne, Dusseldorf, or Frankfurt. From Koeln or Duesseldorf
it should be around an hour by car---no more than two hours even considering
traffic. Both airport have a rather limited number of
On Sun, 24 May 2009, John C Klensin wrote:
Let me see if I can ask the question in a slightly more productive way.
Ray and IAOC:
I assume that, in each of these out-of-the-way cases, you have asked potential
hosts to pick locations that meet other criteria, such as the airport one, and
The train from FRA does indeed stop at the airport station which is
connected to the airport itself. I've used the ICE to go from
Frankfurt airport to Amsterdam several times and it is both scenic,
comfortable and inexpensive compared to most flights.
Go to:
Ole Jacobsen wrote:
On Sun, 24 May 2009, John C Klensin wrote:
Let me see if I can ask the question in a slightly more productive way.
Ray and IAOC:
I assume that, in each of these out-of-the-way cases, you have asked potential
hosts to pick locations that meet other criteria, such as the
On May 24, 2009, at 22:04, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
you can order the tickets online and
they will arrive (at least to California) in less than a week
Nowadays, we tend to print them ourselves (www.bahn.de supplies them
as PDF), this is confusingly called online-ticket at Deutsche Bahn.
You need
On Sun, 24 May 2009, Dave CROCKER wrote:
It's rarely just a matter of the hosts chosen location, but what is
available at a given time and what is suitable for an IETF meeting in
So, in this economy, you think that the choices were severely restricted 15
months from the time the
Unless I'm mistaken, the ICE requires a reservation.
You are mistaken.
No, it doesn't. (Sprinter trains do, but they are not relevant here.)
(But, yes. it's nice to have a reservation -- actually, get as many of
them as you need :-)
Again, these are easy to get on-line.
At the Paris IETF I
On 24 mei 2009, at 21:54, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
It's rarely just a matter of the hosts chosen location, but what is
available at a given time and what is suitable for an IETF meeting
How did we end up with march, late july, november anyway?
Seems to me that if we can do each meeting a month
On May 24, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
How did we end up with march, late july, november anyway?
It has something to do with the mists of time. Once upon a time there
were quarterly meetings, and starting with 1991 we changed to three. I
was not part of the decision,
Ole Jacobsen wrote:
[..]
Train time is around 3 and 1/2 hours with 3 changes, but I'd actually
recommend going all the way to Utrecht on the German ICE which gives
If you are going to hop over Utrecht, better just take a direct flight
to Amsterdam (AMS) :)
For The Netherlands, one can plan
And of course nowadays, the meeting times are locked down several
years in advance, according to our must not clash with list and
so on...
It's always possible to start with a blank sheet and redesign the
whole thing, and since the IETF has such a good track record on
that, maybe be should
On 24 mei 2009, at 23:26, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
And of course nowadays, the meeting times are locked down several
years in advance
If moving the dates allows for better venue selections that save me
hours of travel, I'm 100% ok with breaking those locks for any and all
meetings beyond
David,
OK, fine. The general point was: We meet and have met in places in the
US and Canada that are not one hop from everywhere. Dave seems to
think that Minneapolis is incovenient, it's not one hop from San
Francisco or San Jose generally speaking, but I don't think this rules
it (or San
Also: Train service is the answer in most places other than the US. I
was comparing travel time and hops, not air service vs air service.
Maastricht is CLEARLY not an easy place to fly to, but why bother?
Ole
David,
OK, fine. The general point was: We meet and have met in places in the
US
On May 24, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
Can someone involved confirm or deny that the requirement to stick
to the predetermined dates (as opposed to, say, having a window of
+/- a month) reduced the number of viable venues in general, and
those for summer meetings in
Stephan Wenger wrote:
For a German, the most intuitive way to get to Maastricht would actually be
to go through Cologne, Dusseldorf, or Frankfurt. From Koeln or Duesseldorf
it should be around an hour by car---no more than two hours even considering
traffic. Both airport have a rather limited
On May 24, 2009, at 3:37 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
OK, fine. The general point was: We meet and have met in places in the
US and Canada that are not one hop from everywhere.
For me, the only places that are one hop are SFO, SJC, LAX, PHX, DEN,
and DFW. Most places that I travel to are in
Ole Jacobsen wrote:
On Sun, 24 May 2009, Dave CROCKER wrote:
It's rarely just a matter of the hosts chosen location, but what is
available at a given time and what is suitable for an IETF meeting in
So, in this economy, you think that the choices were severely restricted 15
months from the
Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
At the one but last plenary, you (Dave) were
amongst the first persons to object against a potential increase from
$635 to $675. And the amount this sponsor contributes is far more than
than $40x1,000 attendees.
What do you think the incremental cost is, for
--On Sunday, May 24, 2009 4:07 PM -0700 Fred Baker
f...@cisco.com wrote:
...
I'm also not very happy with the tone. What's this confirm or
deny stuff that you and JCK are using? Could you please
confirm or deny that the members of the IAOC are also IETF
participants, travel at least as much
Ole Jacobsen wrote:
Like any engineering product, we can all argue about how well the
compromise worked at the end of the day. Knowing this crowd, I am
sure we'll get all kinds of useful feedback from Stockholm, Hiroshima
and even Maastricht.
Not to put to fine a point on it or anything
The IAOC is pleased to announce the beautiful, historic city of
Maastricht in the Netherlands as the site for IETF 78 from July 25 -
30, 2010.
Our friends at SIDN (www.sidn.nl) will be hosting this meeting. SIDN
is responsible for the functional stability and development of the .nl
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