On Aug 17, 7:34 am, mP miroslav.poko...@gmail.com wrote:
They created the entire universe that we call Java. If Java has no
value, G would have started their own different thing. The tools, OSS,
the community that only exists because of Sun. Out of all the big
companies in computing, Sun would
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 04:53, work only vorlonsw...@gmail.com wrote:
Oracle/Sun is protecting Java, you just can't have any company (Google)
implement a Java environment that does not follow Sun’s specifications! You
need your Java code to run on any JVM!
Indeed, that is a good argument IMHO.
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 02:06, mP miroslav.poko...@gmail.com wrote:
It might seem like a heartless greedy opportunity by many but their
opinion overall does not count. Oracle does not care what you, me or
Mark and Unbuntu community say.
It's a fact that you can't exist as a human being in
J2me was crappy and simple because the phones were crappy and simple. It would
and was hard for all vendors to build anything what we could call useful and
sophisticated. Nobody really used even the native business apps on those
machines. Everything about them was limited and it's no surprise
Yes all the languages and vms after java are better but they didn't take the
heart of a past platform and change it ontop. Yes java took ideas from things
before but they started pretty much from scratch. Java.Lang.string is not a
direct copy of some elses property. Google took a shortcut
On Aug 17, 4:23 am, Robert Casto casto.rob...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm kind of hoping that this creates quite an uproar and lots of problems
for them. I think it is more of a dream though.
The only people who will ever know that anything like this is even
happening are a few geeks (like us) on a
Google only created Android to make money they are not some charitable
organisation that wants to give free search to the world. Stop being a
fanboi, because they care less for you than Sun. So google gave you gmail
wow, sun gave you a platform- for free.
Both Google and Sun were
Im not saying G and O are doing the wrong thing, its just your pleas are
going to organisations that are not benevolent.
Yes I am a Sun fanboi because they at least did things with some honour and
werent outright bullies. Even when companies did the wrong thing, for
example infringed on the java
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On 8/17/10 08:59 , Miroslav Pokorny wrote:
J2me was crappy and simple because the phones were crappy and
simple. It would and was hard for all vendors to build anything
what we could call useful and sophisticated. Nobody really used
even the
The organisations who buy Oracle, both mean business, they dont worry about
how Oracle told 'the developer community. Yes they dont exist in isolation,
but its not like current customers have an option, they cant just leave
Oracle products, its not like there are drop in replacements. Its just
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On 8/17/10 09:32 , Casper Bang wrote:
Google only created Android to make money they are not some
charitable organisation that wants to give free search to the
world. Stop being a fanboi, because they care less for you than
Sun. So google gave
If reputation is so important then why on earth does anybody buy Websphere ?
Yes i know there are a zillion other addons for WS that do all sorts of
wonderful things but many people buy just WS the app server, when they could
have picked any other JEE alternative.
I have never seen a unbiased
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On 8/17/10 08:54 , Wildam Martin wrote:
Stock market immediately shows that the reputation of Oracle goes
down - if there can be a logical conclusion of the movements in
stock market...
If you look at GOOG, they fell down as well. In the very
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 09:48, Miroslav Pokorny
miroslav.poko...@gmail.com wrote:
Yes they dont exist in isolation,
but its not like current customers have an option, they cant just leave
Oracle products, its not like there are drop in replacements. Its just
cheaper and easier to continue as
He just said they care less for you than Sun. I think this is a
well-founded statement. Basically Sun open sourced every single asset
they owned (with very few exceptions). OTOH I don't see Google open
sourcing any of its services (the search engine, GAE, GMail and the
other bazillion ones).
On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 22:04, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wrote:
*sigh*, lawyers...
At least here in Austria it used to be one of the shortest studies
(don't know after the changes trying to get international compliancy).
So if you want to get a title fast, getting a lawyer is a good
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On 8/17/10 10:34 , Casper Bang wrote:
How would Google open source a service?
Just licensing the source code as FLOSS :-) I'd like to point out that
Sun Grid (the cloud thing incarnation before the Sun Cloud step) was
both a service run on Sun
It is also easy-money for many, exploiting loopholes that may have
been kept unplugged ...
Oracle believes in gobbling things up improving itself against competition .
I am wondering if this is oracle's long term strategy to fend off
rivals and maybe even exploit the system ,which it seems to
Obviously this is totally dependant on how everything turns out, and what
Oracle really wants here, but I think that Martin has historical precedent
behind his arguments.
The highly litigious developer-bashing attitude of Oracle is reminiscent of
Microsoft's past.
They did realise their mistake
Agreed, Oracle ought to be scared because their main business seems to
be milking companies who are now dependent on them (i.e. 50.000+ lines
of PL/SQL) and their ridiculous licensing terms. So they must be
aiming really high, for them to be doing this. There are many targets
to go after (60+
Legacy systems tend stay around forever. It costs too much to rewrite
everything and is especially hard when the business experts have left for
whatever reason. As a simple example, take a look at Mainframes, many banks
still run on them and its not like they have not had sufficient time to
That's a pointless conclusion. Of course its about money, but, in what
form? Maybe they think the db/corporate work is going to go mobile in
a big way, and Oracle wants to start writing apps for db management
in one of the mobile platforms. They prefer android but want to
attempt to get some say
No, if google had gone with C#/Mono, they'd have only a quarter of
their current userbase, and what makes you think Microsoft would NOT
have sued Google with a bunch of overly broad patents? Microsoft has
more at stake than Oracle, and would have a more destructive end-
result in mind (killing off
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On 8/17/10 12:13 , Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
Which is why, for the umpteenth time, Oracle is suing Google based
on patents, and not copyright or trademarks.
Indeed, in the compliant there is also a copyright thing (it's after
all the patents).
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 11:45, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wrote:
Obviously this is totally dependant on how everything turns out, and what
Oracle really wants here, but I think that Martin has historical precedent
behind his arguments.
I have seen for myself and customers (not only
On Aug 17, 12:17 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com wrote:
No, if google had gone with C#/Mono, they'd have only a quarter of
their current userbase, and what makes you think Microsoft would NOT
have sued Google with a bunch of overly broad patents? Microsoft has
more at stake than
Could the copyright be as simple as stating that they did not satisfy
the copyright claims of the JDK so that they do not get to use the
patented stuff for free?
On Aug 17, 6:24 am, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
wrote:
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Hi all,
It is my understanding of the problem that Oracle is looking to bring Delvik
in line with the standard Java, no more no less. Of course it will involve
licensing fees and my guess is that Google didn't feel the need to play ball
so... in to the courts we go where Oracle will force the
So what you are effectively saying is that there are two likely
outcomes:
1) Oracle helps create a new modern runtime profile compatible with
Android (Java Android Edition) a la JME and licenses the old-fashioned
way they have always done it.
2) Google dumps Dalvik and forks OpenJDK instead,
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On 8/17/10 14:55 , Casper Bang wrote:
So what you are effectively saying is that there are two likely
outcomes:
1) Oracle helps create a new modern runtime profile compatible
with Android (Java Android Edition) a la JME and licenses the
Remember that patents consist of several claims, some dependent on others.
I believe the court can reaffirm or mark invalid each claim individually
(as the examiner does when issuing a patent), such that the broad claims
are killed but the dependent claims remain. When reading a patent, you
you
On Aug 16, 10:18 pm, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote:
1) Did Sun have anything directly competing with Android? Nope, JME
was a sorry excuse for an application layer, which couldn't do
anything remotely interesting with the actual phone hardware.
Think back to the initial announcement
It was not openmoko , but SavaJe that Sun bought and initially thought
of releasing as a java/linux based mobile platform.
On Aug 17, 12:47 pm, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
wrote:
Note that Sun did try to pursue this trail with OpenMoko (remember
it?). But having only an
On Aug 16, 2:33 am, mP miroslav.poko...@gmail.com wrote:
Is Android really not java ? Officially they tell you its not, but
given that Sun asked companies not to use Java in their name - im
thinking JavaRebel does that mean calling your classes
java.lang.String and the like not the equivalent?
Google has open sourced hundreds of products which can be searched in
http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/
On Aug 17, 12:50 pm, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
wrote:
they owned (with very few exceptions). OTOH I don't see Google open
sourcing any of its services (the search
Sun left Apache alone because Harmony didnt really matter and there was
nothing to gain. Oracle on the other hand have a different style of
business.
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On 8/17/10 16:19 , jpf wrote:
Google has open sourced hundreds of products which can be searched
in
http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/
Re-read my statement. I'm talking of _relative_ quantities and core
assets (such as Java and Solaris).
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On 8/17/10 16:12 , jpf wrote:
It was not openmoko , but SavaJe that Sun bought and initially
thought of releasing as a java/linux based mobile platform.
My fault for the name. The concept stays the same, of course.
- --
Fabrizio Giudici - Java
Google only open sourced things that have no market value or compete with
their business in anyway. I dont think its possible for IBM to sell a
competitor to Google collections, its does not make sense. THink of how
Microsoft release MVC for free, which is useless without having bought other
But if we go by which company is nicer / less sue-happy, then Google
clearly made the right choice at the time. The sun of yesteryear is
not the oracle of today. Unless you're suggesting that google should
have invested heavily in time travel tech, of course.
On Aug 17, 1:39 pm, Casper Bang
He just said they care less for you than Sun. I think this is a
well-founded statement. Basically Sun open sourced every single asset
they owned (with very few exceptions). OTOH I don't see Google open
sourcing any of its services (the search engine, GAE, GMail and the
other bazillion ones).
I'm suggesting than within 1 year of stewardship, Oracle did more harm
to FLOSS than Microsoft did the last 10. Not suggesting Microsoft are
saints and that they would not have pursued the same avenue, but facts
are facts. And we don't need time travel, just to get rid of stinkin'
software patents
Are people granted invites for app inventor to give to their friends
or do you have to be one of the lucky ones picked by google?
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Alan, thanks for the interesting post.
I have had a chance to play with App Inventor, and I wasn't
impressed. Like a lot of Google's early products, it felt very
incomplete (the fact that my phone had to be plugged into the
computer, to even use the app for instance). Also, insuring the
various
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On 8/17/10 17:39 , Casper Bang wrote:
I'm suggesting than within 1 year of stewardship, Oracle did more harm
to FLOSS than Microsoft did the last 10. Not suggesting Microsoft are
saints and that they would not have pursued the same avenue, but
Perhaps I am overreacting. But I'm also thinking within the context of
a canned OpenSolaris and the subtle degradation of NetBeans.
On Aug 17, 8:35 pm, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
wrote:
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On 8/17/10 17:39 , Casper Bang wrote: I'm
I was apparently mislead by things I read about Dalvik; or perhaps I
assumed that dexopt actually compiled things to native code, rather
than just aligning code, replacing field references with pointer
offsets, and so on. The official word is that Dalvik was 100%
interpreted up until Froyo, and
Sure, but that has nothing to do with Google being greedy
If any one thinks that Google developed Android for the good of man - you
need to sit down and have a cup of tea.
Android is here ONLY to control ads space on mobiles, Google said it them
selves - can't let one man (Steve Job's)
Its all about Ad's and money, they don't care if its open or not, they use
the open software as PR to get people feeling nice warm and fuzzy.
You throw they around very loosely, I am certain Android attracts
engineers over because it's open... follow official guys like Tim Bray
or unofficial
On 17 Aug., 16:05, robogeek reiki...@gmail.com wrote:
In other words, Sun's marketing guys were not taking the same skate
to where the puck is going directional cue.
Sun marketing guys break through the ice before the game even starts.
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On 16 Aug., 18:50, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote:
Jobs: If you help bury Android, we will buy a shitload of Oracle
hardware and software to power the upcoming iCloud.
Apple probably uses their own servers: http://www.apple.com/xserve/
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Hi all,
I've been talking to people in Oracle that are very concerned about all the
wild speculation that has been running through the community. And while I can't
give details, I can say they feel that the conclusions don't match what they
are doing however they are also still not in a
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 21:10, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps I am overreacting. But I'm also thinking within the context of
a canned OpenSolaris and the subtle degradation of NetBeans.
OK, OpenSolaris is being dropped, but NetBeans?!?
Take a look at the timeline:
I visited the NetBeans profiling guys in Prague in June. If they were being
dropped, they certainly didn't know about it. In fact they've been given quite
a task to improve visualvm so I think support for NBP is quite strong. And it
makes sense as Oracle doesn't have anything that competes with
If it will ever be finished it falls into the category of RAD tools I would say.
There have been times when there was a good market for those tools and
I used Magic II for many years with a high productivity.
But IMHO those times are gone, because
a) Flexibility in general is not given in the
But Google is relatively isolationist. They have bought or improved
many FOSS products and given back relatively little of that. If one
uses those silly line counting programs, im pretty sure the balance
would be they have taken more than they have given back.
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@Casper, dont be a fanboi, they=Google!= the guy who sells pop corn in
the canteen..
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What subtle degradation of Netbeans are you referring to? As far as I can
tell the Netbeans (release) trains are still moving right along. About the
only thing that's made me raise a brow was one of the NB 6.10 features of
including BEA Weblogic as an optional bundled app server to go along
@casper
I am certain Android attracts engineers over because it's open - that was
my point (warm and fuzzy) and they do this to get engineers to come to
Android.
It not like they are opening their search engine code, adWords, Big Table
(yes white paper and it been copied), GFS, GWS and any
The big thing I keep seeing in all this concern about Oracle is that
people continually forget or ignore WHY Sun and Java is now owned by Oracle:
Sun focused on the wrong things (including being OVERLY concerned with the
community) which led to them losing money year after year after year
The microsoft case was a bit different. They implemented their own
incompatible version of java claiming it was java. Google never called
android java - not to consumers nor developers.
On Aug 17, 2010 11:28 PM, Sean Comerford sean.c.comerf...@gmail.com
wrote:
The big thing I keep seeing in all
Which company did they sue for similar grounds ? Given that Sun was looking
for a buyer, and that included Google, IBM and at the end Oracle it would be
a bit hard for them to sue G over Android that would be madness...
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was MS i think
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Miroslav Pokorny
miroslav.poko...@gmail.com wrote:
Which company did they sue for similar grounds ? Given that Sun was
looking for a buyer, and that included Google, IBM and at the end Oracle it
would be a bit hard for them to sue G over
Exactly what I feel. You will need 3 components launched to develop
1. App inventor
2. block editor
3. Emulator.
the webstart tool is a hack job, and I could argue, why don't you do
the whole thing in webstart. Google might phase out the webstart
later.
Using the puzzle style to glue events
Acting as a patent troll is a bit worse than anyone expected though -
if they had a legitimate way to attack android then fine - patents are
not it though.
Also - there is a general view that this if anything could even hurt
oracle in the medium long term, so it *seems* foolish from all angles
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