RE: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jay Walters wrote: You guys wouldn't want to hear my stories... suffice it to say I agree that if you can't understand to edit the properties files by hand you probably shouldn't be editing them with a GUI... That's a much different assertion than there shoouldn't be a GUI. After all, people who understand the files need to edit them too. It can be a checkbox on a feature list though and sometimes that is important (even though it feels wrong!-) I disagree. While I can certainly edit XML by hand, it's not necessarily fun to unpack the JAR, edit the file, put it back in, try to deploy it, see what syntax errors I've made, unpack the JAR, edit the file... There are a couple of nice things about a GUI. It does all the validation for you, so you don't have to worry about syntax. It links up all the JBoss elements to the corresponding ejb-jar.xml elements so you don't have to worry about forgetting a single bean or cmp field or whatever. It gives you help on the individual elements, so if you forget what some specific obscure setting means, you don't have to look it up elsewhere. And it can make it really fast to convert from one EJB server to another. Why would you *want* to edit your XML by hand? Aaron ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jay Walters wrote: I don't edit my xml by hand or by tool, I generate it! That's not always realistic. It works great if you're writing new code for JBoss only, but if you have a pile of existing WebLogic JARs, or you're not free to add arbitrary JavaDoc tags or whatever, a generation solution is not necessarily suitable. Aaron ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
And as my final 2c (at least for now) on this, I've used Allaire JRun a fair amount, they built their admin tool using JSP and running in a separate webserver (actually Oracle OAS 4.X used to do this too I think.) Anyways, they had lots of quirky little config files and the JSPs didn't really edit them right either, they'd leave bits and pieces here and there if you removed something (and yes, Oracle's web admin had the same problems). I imagine this was a quick way to get something put together though, but the tool really needs to maintain consistency. Cheers -Original Message- From: Peter Fagerlund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 10:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML) on 1-06-26 15.13, Jay Walters at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You guys wouldn't want to hear my stories... suffice it to say I agree that if you can't understand to edit the properties files by hand you probably shouldn't be editing them with a GUI... It can be a checkbox on a feature list though and sometimes that is important (even though it feels wrong!-) Yes We all probably experienced similar stories ... I do believe that one should educate to the point of understanding ... and to shield some low level stuff from people using a system ... a UI of high complexity systems need to deal with behavioural psychology and have to *?* rely on pre knowledge of its users *!* or could let users get access to the knowledge needed from the tool itself - that the UI is the facade for ... -- A modern UI need to deliver ... Education (smart doc's) Usability (efficiency) Empoverment (results) -- Lets look at the concept of EJB responsibilities that yields portability ... The Bean Provider (possible user of UI) The Container Provider (possible user of UI) The Server Provider (possible user of UI) The Application Assembler (possible user of UI) The Deployer(possible user of UI) The System Administrator(possible user of UI) -- A system that can be used will be adopted ... and a UI can help ... with Love /peter ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
Ok, I confess, I edit it with VI. Flushed me right out of the closet... I am not a normal developer, nor having been an administrator would I like to be a normal one of those again either. -Original Message- From: Aaron Mulder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 10:35 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML) On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jay Walters wrote: I don't edit my xml by hand or by tool, I generate it! That's not always realistic. It works great if you're writing new code for JBoss only, but if you have a pile of existing WebLogic JARs, or you're not free to add arbitrary JavaDoc tags or whatever, a generation solution is not necessarily suitable. Aaron ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
on 1-06-26 16.23, Jay Walters at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't edit my xml by hand or by tool, I generate it! Cool - that rules ... and can be utilised by many if it has a userfriendly UI in front ... I would say a generator is a tool - together with a facade - it is the future ... /peter ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
netbeans is another possibility... -Original Message- From: Peter Fagerlund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML) on 1-06-25 19.30, marc fleury at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The next generation GUI Could be built using a set of extension to a freeware shell like the Together Community Edition 5.0 http://www.togethercommunity.com/community-edition.shtml or some other free tool with easy yet powerfull plugin capability ... couse it gives direct down and into the func of the tool ... So : What is the spec for the tool ? ... What is the wishlist for the tool ? ... I am not commiting here just curious to understand what it absolutely has to do -- also what it could be made up in dreams to do ... ex. rollover logs - collect statistics - fail/load notifications etc. ? ... besides conf ! ? ... skin'able ? ... ;-) /peter ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
Dude, GUI tools suck. Just edit the xml by hand. IMO if a person can't edit xml they shouldn't be configuring the server or ejb-jar. -dain - Original Message - From: Jay Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 2:42 PM Subject: RE: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML) netbeans is another possibility... -Original Message- From: Peter Fagerlund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML) on 1-06-25 19.30, marc fleury at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The next generation GUI Could be built using a set of extension to a freeware shell like the Together Community Edition 5.0 http://www.togethercommunity.com/community-edition.shtml or some other free tool with easy yet powerfull plugin capability ... couse it gives direct down and into the func of the tool ... So : What is the spec for the tool ? ... What is the wishlist for the tool ? ... I am not commiting here just curious to understand what it absolutely has to do -- also what it could be made up in dreams to do ... ex. rollover logs - collect statistics - fail/load notifications etc. ? ... besides conf ! ? ... skin'able ? ... ;-) /peter ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
Oh man How short sighted you are. I aggree when you are a J2EE programmer then you don't need a GUI but the most future administrator of JBoss don't know J2EE well enough to do so. And also a management GUI is not only to configure a server but also to administer the EJBs, redeploy, restart Services, add new Servcies (DataSources) etc. Finally when you have a look at the success of M$ then you see that convinience matters. Andy -Original Message- From: Dain Sundstrom [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 1:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML) Dude, GUI tools suck. Just edit the xml by hand. IMO if a person can't edit xml they shouldn't be configuring the server or ejb-jar. -dain ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
on 1-06-25 22.26, Dain Sundstrom at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dude, GUI tools suck. Just edit the xml by hand. IMO if a person can't edit xml they shouldn't be configuring the server or ejb-jar. Yes exactly - throw out Gnome and the like alltogether - U are using Lynx reading this and the earth is flat *LoL* - the masses - the masses - and I for one - is a visual oriented person - that think some nix stuff looks like somebody using foul language in a carton. One learns to like it eventually - but it is not user friendly, very error prone has a very step learning curve - offset that ... with state of the art eduDoc's with UI ... /peter Technology is Nothing Creation All ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
I was just picking a fight :) I agree. I hate admining servers and like GUI tools instead weird property files. But, you do have to agree that the xml configuration that JBoss uses is simple enough for most admins to figure out (especially when compared to Linux startup scripts or apache conf). I definitely think some one could make some bucks on this project, as the people with the bucks tend to like GUI tools. -dain -Original Message- From: Schaefer, Andreas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:51 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML) Oh man How short sighted you are. I aggree when you are a J2EE programmer then you don't need a GUI but the most future administrator of JBoss don't know J2EE well enough to do so. And also a management GUI is not only to configure a server but also to administer the EJBs, redeploy, restart Services, add new Servcies (DataSources) etc. Finally when you have a look at the success of M$ then you see that convinience matters. Andy -Original Message- From: Dain Sundstrom [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 1:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML) Dude, GUI tools suck. Just edit the xml by hand. IMO if a person can't edit xml they shouldn't be configuring the server or ejb-jar. -dain ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: The next generation GUI (was : Re: [JBoss-dev] EJX and XML)
Dain Sundstrom wrote: I was just picking a fight :) OK, I just discarded my rant-mail. -danch ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
