Peter,
I didn't really follow the previous thread (sorry), but here is my take:
We really need to define a standard for this ASAP. Even if half the
client authors never intend to implement voice (and video) we still need a
standard for those that do, otherwise we will be stuck with a bunch of
Doesnt STUN have serious problems with symmetric NAT's? (i.e. NATs
where the port you use on the client is different to the one the
NAT assigns to you publicly).
Yes (as I understand it) Well, when you say serious problems I assume
you mean it can't traverse a symmetric NAT. I guess that is
From: Richard Dobson
The use of a two way algorithm would still require the user do more
than cat the file to find the password. Why should we make it as
easy as possible for people (admins or not) to find out other
people's passwords? If anything we should be taking every
- Original Message -
From: Robert Norris
IMO it is very undesirable that passwords are stored in plaintext, IMO
we should get rid of that ASAP :D I know we'll have to live with
plaintext passwords for quite some time to come but IMO it would be a
Good Thing(tm) if clients/servers
- Original Message -
Ages ago I wrote up a proposal to do this via a transport in JEP format
(which Peter wouldn't accept despite my constant nagging) but I have had
little feedback on it or seen any alternative ideas put forward:
- Original Message - Check out this site
http://www.ralphm.net/map?language=en
Maybe it can give you ideas.
Trent,
Thanks for the pointer. I have seen the map, but this isn't what I am
trying to do. I believe this system uses presence packets and
subscriptions, which is
- Original Message -
From: Peter Millard
Bart van Bragt wrote:
There are already some online indicators available. The problem with
these indicators is that most of them work on a site basis. So you need
one bot/agent in your roster for every site where you want to display
your
Agreed 100%. This is the problem I have. Everytime I bring up the topic of
webpresence someone directs me to a script someone has written years ago
that basically implements a mini-Jabber client in Perl or PHP behind a
website, and sends and receives presence packets and rosters and what have
Agreed, no single point of failure/control.
Either some sort of P2P style searching method, or leave it up to the
portals, search engine sites to index/search/cache all the different JUD's.
Michael.
- Original Message -
Has anyone thought about creating a centralized user directory?
Hi Justin,
This is indeed good news. I for one would be delighted to see JabberCentral
return - it has been sorely missed.
For what it is worth, Brett Hutley (who is currently on holiday so I'm not
sure if he is up-to-date with the discussion) has made an offer on the list
to host an end user
I did not insist on closing down JabberCentral. The proprietor and owner
of that site made that decision, though I *did* encourage him to do so
because the site was WAY out of date and positively confusing to users,
and he lacked the time to improve it or bring it up to date with modern
- Original Message -
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 01:48:50AM +1000, Michael Brown wrote:
Why on earth would we need a nod from Peter to set up a website?
Your previous message said that you took it down at his insistence, so I
assumed he should be consulted before it went back up.
In case
Rachel - seriously, drop the term Official Client - please. That is
really going to start pissing off other client developers (starting
with me).
If I make a portal and choose an official client for it (and call it
exactly that), there's nothing you can do about it. It's very
unfortunate
- Original Message -
From: Tijl Houtbeckers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If I make a portal and choose an official client for it (and call it
exactly that), there's nothing you can do about it. It's very
unfortunate if that would piss you off (for you), but I don't see any
reason why it
- Original Message -
[Snip]
There's already several projects
underway that, for example, work on forum intergration.
Tijl,
Can you point me at who is doing work with forum integration?
Thanks,
Michael.
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[EMAIL
From: Peter Saint-Andre
On Wed, Jun 11, 2003 at 10:50:06AM -0500, Thomas Muldowney wrote:
I think this is a sign of a larger end user problem. We have no site
that caters to end users...
[Snip]
I agree, much more is needed than just an easy user guide. If we really
want to reach the
- Original Message -
I'm not sure if he's talking about HTML-only messages, or ones with HTML
*and* text versions. HTML-only messages are nasty, but I'm prepared
to ignore your HTML attachments if you're prepared to ignore my PGP
attachments :)
Enabling HTML e-mail means giving various
Andrew Writes:
- Original Message -
From the amount of interest this idea is generating, it sounds like all
we're missing before this site goes ahead is a volunteer, a server, and
the nod from Peter.
Why on earth would we need a nod from Peter to set up a website?
On the point of client
- Original Message -
On Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 08:44:08PM +1000, Michael Brown wrote:
Anyway. surely you can configure Mailman to strip HTML if it really
bothers you. HTML mail is just as much as a standard as ASCII I would
have thought - if your mail reader can't deal
Has a anyone looked at writing or written a Jabber=Jabber
gateway/transport?
I know this sounds a bit stupid but it would actually be useful for people
with multiple accounts, as it would provide some level of JID aliasing that
I think is very lacking in the Jabber spec.
eg when I am at work, I
eg when I am at work, I sign in to [EMAIL PROTECTED]/work and subscribe to the
J2J
transport that logs me into [EMAIL PROTECTED]/home - now my co-workers and
customers can see me online as me@work, and my friends see me online as
[EMAIL PROTECTED], but I only need to run one Jabber client
They don't really provide a way contact them plus they delete postings
regarding this topic on their forums.
By the looks of the posts in the forums, they even ripped off the emoticons
they used without asking permission:
Yeah - I would also be interested in a solution that allows us to force a
message to an offline resource. Often when I am at work for example, I
want to send myself a link so I can look at it when I am at home and have
more time. It this case, it would be nice to be able to send a message
To elaborate on this...
Headline support is important, because if your client can't receive messages
with type='headline' then it isn't going to be much use to people who want
to use something like an RSS Headline Agent. I can remember talking to an
author of such a script who said that he was
[Sorry about posting this to JDEV, but we don't have a Jabber Advocacy list]
Just a note to say that the Jabber service at dreamhost.com has gone live.
For those that are wanting a cheap hosting plan that also gives you a
managed Jabber server included in the price (starting at US$9.95/month)
It's worth noting that you can't register new accounts from a client, you
have to do it though the web based interface which might slow you down.
(This is to stop unauthorised people creating accounts against your domain)
They haven't specified a limit on number of user accounts, but if people
http://dial.optusnet.com.au/news/story/zdnet/20020724/19/tech/0,224993,20266861,00.inp
Don't know if people have seen this article.
Apparently, server-to-server IM is impossibly hard, which is, of course, why no
one is doing it yet...
Michael.
From what I've heard iChat in fact doesn't use the AOL servers at all when
communicating from one iChat user to another. Guess wich protocol it in
fact really
uses for that ;)
Umm. !?!?
Michael
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
There is another alternative, although I'd still qualify it as
experimental and hasn't been updated in quite a while. WCS, the Web
Client Services is a prototype add-on web server plus client stuff for
jabberd-1.4. The only decent info on these was last posted on the old
jabber.org website
update.jabber.org *should* interact with the version numbers of clients
released on Jabbercentral.com I'm told, but alas it is currently broken. :(
Michael
How do you get the whole network of servers to know if there is a new
version
of your client?
Each time the client starts up it
http://www.google.de/search?q=cache:swIj312NAJAC:www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu
/proposals/active.html+dotgnu-jabberhl=deie=UTF-8
The DotGNU-Jabber Integration Project aims to help DotGNU
catch up to
Microsoft by using Jabber's existing code and user base.
Note the existing code base.
It has
---snip---
Perhaps here is a problem with JabberSMTP being on JabberStudio. I have
not thought so until now, but if it is decided Jabberstudio is only for
free software (as in liberty) and open source projects, I will certainly
remove it from there, since it is not yet those things (but will
Now, if you are transferring a gigabyte, you wouldn't send it via e-mail,
so why would you send it via Jabber?
Because it's too big to send via email (!)
Michael.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
While we are on this topic...
It's worth noting that although we are talking about files a lot here, this
is going to affect any OOB data, such as voice chat, webcams, whiteboards
etc etc. There is more to OOB data that sending your mates MP3's.
Also there is nothing stopping someone from
Is it just me, or is theIETF submission
document no longer accessible?
http://www.jabber.org/docs/draft-miller-jabber-00.html
Mike.
Mattias Campe wrote:
Michael Brown wrote:
Is it just me, or is the IETF submission document no longer accessible?
http://www.jabber.org/docs/draft-miller-jabber-00.html
Mike.
Sorry, I also can't access
http://www.jabber.org/docs/draft-miller-jabber-00.html
for starting a file
transfer.
Michael Brown wrote:
Can someone tell me how to differentiate between sending someone a URL
'link' to someone and sending an actual file? Is there a difference?
The 'jabber:iq:oob' or 'jabber:x:oob' namespaces should be used for file
transfer -- clients
I have been contacting some webhosting ISP's to see if they would consider
offering a Jabber server to their customers in the same way they currently
offer mail and news servers etc. See below the reply from dreamhost.com:
Hello Michael,
Thanks for contacting us. At the current time, we do not
Hi - can anyone shed some light on this?
For a while now I seem to have intermittent problems when using my
Jabber.com account.
For some reason, some people on other servers (jabber.org in some cases)
don't appear online, when I can chat happily with them from accounts on
other servers.
Also
Can anyone tell me if it is possible to get a client configured on the
jabber.org server such that the server will reply to my clients autoupdate
requests as documented here?:
http://docs.jabber.org/jpg/html/main.html#CH-AUTOUPDATE
Are any other clients using the jabber.org server in this
Marc and myself are please to announce that we have an Alpha version of
Yabber, our Win32 Jabber client, available for download on our website.
Yabber is designed to be a solid Win32 client for both new users and power
users. Special detail has been given to the user interface (which has been
About the first problem, what would happen if you decided to add
jogger.jabber.org (no username) to your roster instead?
Then I never get my auth request acknowledged, but I'm not ruling out thi
being something funky with my client when the JID doesn't have an @ symbol
in it, so I was
Hmmmthis is interesting. Pitty the
standard vCard spec doesn't have a JID field.
Is this a good candidate to replace the tempory one
Jabber is using? It would be nice to standardise this when we can, and
perhaps looking at getting some Encryption/ACL's in place, and try to come up
with
I am still having problems adding Jogger to my roster. As I posted before,
if I add [EMAIL PROTECTED] to my roster, I never actually get a
subscription approval from that JID, so it always shows up as pending on my
system.
What is also annoying, is *every* time I change status, jogger sees fit
Transport translating/transforming of messages: if I'd be maintining one
of the
transports, the last thing I would care about is translating of emoticans,
the
transports job is to route the message, not interpretate it. Even if you
do make it to
some kind of standard I think transport
When sending a message to a property-IM system like MSN, the client can
ofcourse
detect this and adapt emoticons accordingly (same for receiving), but
again, this is a
decision that's in the hands of the client developers.
This should be done at the transport level I think. Users on
A quick questions about Jogger (sorry to ask on the JDEV list - is it just
me, or is there no contact info at jogger.jabber.org?)
It is suggested that you add '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' to your roster. I
have done that, but the authorisation message doesn't come back from that
exact JID, so the Jogger
Ok, but I still don't understand how typing:
/me does something
has any advantages over typing
bob does something
given that I know my name is bob. Is the whole point to change the colour
of bob?
sure, they are used to describe an action, rather than a statement within a
conversation.
I didn't mean that everything should be with words to be descriptive,
like :-) itself is descriptive enough. Indeed, I would also want as
much ASCII-art as possible. But for those other expressions (e.g.
love) other things are needed and (l) (b) don't mean much to me.
Suppose I'm a hardcore
I didn't mean that everything should be with words to be descriptive,
like :-) itself is descriptive enough. Indeed, I would also want as
much ASCII-art as possible. But for those other expressions (e.g.
love) other things are needed and (l) (b) don't mean much to me.
Suppose I'm a
I didn't mean that everything should be with words to be descriptive,
like :-) itself is descriptive enough. Indeed, I would also want as
much ASCII-art as possible. But for those other expressions (e.g.
love) other things are needed and (l) (b) don't mean much to me.
Suppose I'm a hardcore
Michael Brown wrote:
Sorry, I ment that the transports will have to do the translations when
messages are sent to other IM systems. For example, if a graphical
Jabber
user clicks the icon with the mouse for email, they will see the icon
on
their client, and when they send it to a text
| Otherwise we are stuck with using whatever Microsoft comes up with. You
| see?
No, I don't see (continue below)
| and if you are the type of person that prefers to use a
| text only client, the chances are you think emoticons are a stupid idea
and
| won't bother using them anyway.
Sorry, I ment that the transports will have to do the translations
when messages are sent to other IM systems. For example, if a
graphical Jabber user clicks the icon with the mouse for email,
they will see the icon on their client, and when they send it to a
text only Jabber
Some clients (Gabber, JabberIM and plugMarvin/plug) support IRC
style /me emotes as in:
/me does some emoting
which would be shown in a different color as:
* tom does some emoting
I've never really used IRC...can someone tell me what the point of these
are? I've always wondered. For
jdev,
Does anyone know what is causing this
problem? I have seen it quite a lot, and it is a little annoying, because
it causes two online events to be triggered on the client where there should
only be one.
The problem is that two presence packets are
received for a single user becoming
Standard stuff being when are you going to have stable and reliable
gateways to the other IM systems?
*sigh*
Yet when /. has an article about Linux, you don't see a whole host of people
complaining that it isn't stable and reliable running Windows
software...weird. Many of the Open
Does it have to be in the presence info? I noticed the (unused?) XML-vCard
spec has fields for such things as a users GPS location - which is way cool,
but I don't think has ever been used.
I would love to have my client display a small map of the world with a
highlight where the user you are
IETF. Can someone who understands the inner workings of the IETF give
us a short summary of what process we need to go though to get Jabber
listed as an Internet standard, and an honest estimate of our chances of
succeeding?
We've tried this route twice and have several people involved
are dialing into... I guess as a fallback if
you can't get a direct connection it is as good as it gets with NAT though.
On Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 04:49:09PM +1100, Michael Brown wrote:
Can someone point me at some docs that shows how to implement PASS?
http://foundation.jabber.org/jeps/jep-0003
I can see here a problem that you don't have any
way to block storage of forbidden contents like pornographic
movies,pictures, mp3s or pirated software.
We should really check it before getting into the troubles.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation has some useful resources addressing
Can someone point me at some docs that shows how to implement PASS? I'm a
little unsure if it is Jabber specific or not, but searching Jabber.org
doesn't give me much useful, and searching the web for PASS give me
hundreds of hits, even with other keywords.
That's the purpose of PASS, yes.
Not true. I have been using the Disney client for months now with my
Jabber.com account. In my opinion it is the most stable and cleanest writen
Win32 client I have found (Kudos to the Authors).
I'm a bit unhappy if their servers aren't connected to the rest of the
Jabber world however. Can
- Original Message -
From:
Michael Rothwell
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 2:44
PM
Subject: [JDEV] formatted text --
clickable URLs, query other clients' capabilities
The Jabber client available at Jabber.com, and
WinJAB, both seem
Perhaps as a first step we can find some agreement about terminology
(roster vs. contact list vs. buddy list, transport vs. gateway,
etc.)
I actually prefer Contact List but Roster seems to be well defined for
Jabber - which I can live with - although it does sound a little like there
The main problem was that I needed a three-phase icon (for when you get
an event from someone in a collapsed group), and couldn't think of
anything beyond the + and -. Also, to replicate the +/- style usually
means showing the tree branches, which takes up horizontal room,
resulting in
Don't worry, I'm not going to flame - I agree with what you're
saying, but it's important to say why they (I suppose I should
use the word 'we') build clients that appear ugly to a lot of
people - I for one *hate* having to point and click and follow
cascading menus and have my screen
Don't worry, I'm not going to flame - I agree with what you're
saying, but it's important to say why they (I suppose I should
use the word 'we') build clients that appear ugly to a lot of
people - I for one *hate* having to point and click and follow
cascading menus and have my screen
Thanks for the pointer Rikard.
I didn't want to deviate too far from the traditional Windows interface that
most people know, but I'm always interested in GUI design, so I will check
out the links.
I look forward to reading your ideas.
Michael.
- Original Message -
From: Rikard Linde
Re: http://www.aurora.gen.nz/jabber_design
Some detailed points:* You make the point that the client should
integrate into the operating system's GUI, but then you show Mac-style flippy
triangles for the group show/hide controls on a Windows client. For it to be
Windows-like it
Julian (x-virge) and I were discussing client design
yesterday and I think you are a prime example of
our discussion. There is a problem with Jabber,
in general it's not everyones first IM client.
Great! I've always wanted to be a prime example :-)
It's true I guess, but it's not the only
I, of course, agree with temas here. I have quite a few
comments already, but I'll look at your guide a bit
more thoroughly tomorrow and make a reply.
Thanks, that would be great.
One major thing that struck me was that you said
server hard disk space won't be wasted by history.
Did I?
I'd much rather add a query to the URL indicating the action:
jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?action=message # send IM (default action)
jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?action=roster # add to roster
jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?action=chat # join a chat room
I think this makes a lot of sense, as
In an effort to generate some debate, and give people some ideas when
designing Jabber clients, I have put together a brief tutorial document
which is up on my site.
http://aurora.gen.nz/jabber_design/
Can I ask some people who are more familiar with the Jabber protocol to take
5 minutes and
That's brilliant Al! Exactly what I was looking for!
I'll insert it into my site as soon as I get the chance.
Is there source available for this by any chance?
Thanks again,
Michael.
All,
I've finally got round to documenting my send a jabber message from a web
page form system. Anyone
I know there have been a few people working on Java Jabber clients etc, but
I would interested to know if anyone has developed (or are working on) a
web-pager app similar to the ICQ one.
For those that are not familiar with the concept, it is a small form you can
put on your
Sorry, the URL I had in mind was http://www.icq.com/panels/messagepanel/
- Original Message -
From: Michael Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 6:06 PM
Subject: [JDEV] Jabber Web-Pager App(lette)?
I know there have been a few people working
Have you thought about how this should work?
Not in detail. I guess the simplest way of doing it (from the user point of
view) is the same as ICQ does it. Calling some code on a jabber server
somewhere with the destination address and the message text. I guess the
issue is finding someone
Has anyone looked at SILC? Does it relate in any way to the Jabber
groupchat? Similar at all?
I notice it claims to be secure - does this hold up, and if so is it
anything that could be reused to improve security in Jabber?
Michael.
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jdev mailing
I'm a bit concerned that Microsoft is going to saturate the Instant
Messaging market when XP ships.
(Not that I have seen any of the IM features yet - but they have infinite
resources compared to the Jabber project)
To my mind, the only that the Jabber community can even attempt to combat
this
I'm looking to do the same thing, but I'm going to do it from the server
end.
The client end isn't really an option because the user may run jabber
clients from many places, and thus any messages pulled by one client
aren't
available elsewhere even if the user has not seen them.
Al.
- Original Message -
From: Dmitriy Kolegayev [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 6:07 AM
Subject: RE: RESPOST : [JDEV] JabberCOM update wacked - Further
Karthik, you have no one to blame but yourself and your buggy code.
I briefly looked at the
- Original Message -
From:
Ben
Piercey
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 5:28
AM
Subject: [JDEV] offline message
question
Is it possible to push messages back to the
server's
offline message queue after it has arrived at
it's
Sorry, but I just can't help myself plugging the
server-side message history idea :-)
Michael.
- Original Message -
From:
Ben
Piercey
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 5:28
AM
Subject: [JDEV] offline message
question
Is it possible to
Can someone please post a URL when this is up?
Michael.
- Original Message -
From: Karthik K H [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:18 AM
Subject: [JDEV] VC++ sample Project
Hi all,
I have sent my sample VC++ client project for
JabberCOM to P.G.
From: Michael Hearn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well, I don't know if it was considered in the early days of Jabber, but I
have to disagree with you for several reasons:
- Having a username@hostname address format is actually one of the few
good
ways we know of to have a unique identity. That's why
From: Max Horn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I never had any problems with moving ISPs etc. I have my own domain
name (could cost me less than $1 per month, but I also have some
value-added stuff, so I pay more), so I never worry about changing
ISPs - I can just change the redirect.
Max, probably so do
From: Max Horn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
snip
The fourth
property would be up to clients. Since there may be more than
one certificate (for each different algorithm) we can't really
put them all into a user's vcard, since that would be too big.
I agree. I'd prefer if vCards would stay small. But
I am strongly in favour of moving the message
history from the local hard drive to the server. Only being able to access
message history from my home PC but not from my work one seems to go against the
overall design of Jabber. It should be
stored on the server in the same way as my contact
From: Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think message history location should be optional.
I see a world of difference between trusting my jabber admin not to snoop
a
connection and having my message history on a server which could be hacked
by a third party and my messages obtained.
True,
From: Max Horn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
snip
The fourth
property would be up to clients. Since there may be more than
one certificate (for each different algorithm) we can't really
put them all into a user's vcard, since that would be too big.
I agree. I'd prefer if vCards would stay small. But
I was trying to convince a friend to change to Jabber a while back, and he
was telling me that Jabber wasn't really what he was looking for. He is
trying to find an IM service that has accounts that are independent of the
server they are running on.
How it would work is this:
You are assigned
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