Re: Allow up to 2 elected board members from a single company

[Ullrich Hafner]

I am currently -1 for this change, but I do not yet have access to the full 
governance board discussion yet. 

Basically, the reasoning for this change is not clear for me. Looking back in 
the history of the governance board, we are 4 active members making all the 
decisions. As far as I remember, Kohsuke did not participate in a decision in 
the last couple of years. So in practice we have 4 votes in our meetings, and 
if 2 of these votes are from one company this company can block any decision. 
They have not majority, but we have a stalemate which is a potential risk. So I 
would prefer to not change the current situation. It would even make sense to 
update the current rule so that no company can get 50% of the 4 elected seats. 
Then we do not need discuss if Kohsuke is affiliated with Cloudbees or not.  

If the reasoning for the change is, that we do not have enough people that want 
to help with the governance of the Jenkins project (no election for all 
positions of the officers and board members required) we should also rethink if 
the number of board members is too large? The number of active community 
members in Jenkins is getting smaller year by year (the number of new Jenkins 
features as well), so maybe it would make sense to reduce the number of seats 
as well? The number of board members should reflect the number of active 
community members as well. 

> The board needs more active participants to assist with the work of the 
> board. Allowing 1 more board member from CloudBees or any other company that 
> already has a member on the board will strengthen the board and its work to 
> serve the Jenkins project.

Here it would help to elaborate, what these work items are? From my 
understanding and from our statement, the board is 

> The decision-making ability of the board is more symbolic and honorific


So if there is too much work we should rethink if this work could be delegated 
to other roles in the Jenkins project.  

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Re: Servlet container support (was: Nov 28, 2022 Governance Board Agenda)

[Basil Crow]

https://github.com/jenkinsci/packaging/pull/350
https://github.com/jenkins-infra/jenkins.io/pull/5747

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Re: Problematic releases

[Basil Crow]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 3:54 PM DuMaM  wrote:
>
> How about this release drafter problem?

For your Release Drafter problem I would recommend following up in
https://github.com/release-drafter/release-drafter/issues/1269 or
https://github.com/release-drafter/release-drafter/pull/1255. Release
Drafter is not part of the Jenkins project.

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Re: Problematic releases

[DuMaM]

How about this release drafter problem?

poniedziałek, 28 listopada 2022 o 08:19:26 UTC+1 mc.ca...@gmail.com 
napisał(a):

> > Can plugins use Renovate as it is done for core? 
>
> For sure, if you request the addition to your repository, someone will 
> approve it.
>
> On Monday, 28 November 2022 at 01:48:46 UTC+1 nowak.b...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Can plugins use Renovate as it is done for core? Maybe it will work 
>> better?
>>
>> How about this release drafter problem?
>> poniedziałek, 28 listopada 2022 o 00:06:41 UTC+1 m...@basilcrow.com 
>> napisał(a):
>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/dependabot/dependabot-core/blob/c5e5b827af80f60482262ffca0bd9a2bb7a4d73d/maven/lib/dependabot/maven/update_checker/version_finder.rb
>>>  
>>> attempts to filter out prereleases and date-based versions, but in my 
>>> experience that logic is far from perfect. 
>>>
>>

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Re: Next baseline shift

[Basil Crow]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 1:30 PM 'Jesse Glick' via Jenkins Developers
 wrote:
> Not really any of those […] I was soliciting opinions on whether it sounded 
> desirable and safe enough to try

And I was pointing out that it is of more practical value to discuss
designs alongside concrete implementation plans rather than to merely
discuss designs in the abstract. In any case, I think it is desirable
and safe enough to try, and I am not going to try it. I would prefer
to focus this discussion on things that people are willing to commit
to implementing.

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Re: Next baseline shift

['Jesse Glick' via Jenkins Developers]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 2:53 PM Basil Crow  wrote:

> > Independently of that, we can consider switching the default JDK for
> ci.jenkins.io `buildPlugin` from 8 to 11.
>
> I am not sure to whom you are referring when you write "we". Is this
> something you are planning to implement, something you are asking me to
> implement, or something that you are looking for a third party to
> implement?
>

Not really any of those—it is basically a one-line change, if “we” want to
do it, so I was soliciting opinions on whether it sounded desirable and
safe enough to try (as opposed to leaving the default as 8 indefinitely).

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Re: Allow up to 2 elected board members from a single company

[Alyssa Tong]

I think this would be worthwhile to try so +1 from me. Hopefully this will
open up to more participation.

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 11:21 AM Basil Crow  wrote:

> +1 from me as well. Since the time the current rules were established,
> Kohsuke has begun a new chapter
>  in which he
> has focused his attention on Launchable and decreased his involvement in
> the Jenkins community and CloudBees. This proposal honors Kohsuke's
> foundational contributions
>  to the
> Jenkins community while also acknowledging his shifting priorities and
> empowering the Jenkins community to evolve accordingly.
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Next baseline shift

[Basil Crow]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 11:38 AM 'Jesse Glick' via Jenkins Developers
 wrote:
>
> Independently of that, we can consider switching the default JDK for 
> ci.jenkins.io `buildPlugin` from 8 to 11.

+1 from me regarding the idea. Regarding the implementation, I am not
sure to whom you are referring when you write "we". Is this something
you are planning to implement, something you are asking me to
implement, or something that you are looking for a third party to
implement?

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Re: Next baseline shift

['Jesse Glick' via Jenkins Developers]

Your proposal sounds great to me, and thanks for volunteering to implement
the changes. I think a late-2022 timeline (sometime after 2.375.1 has been
released) makes sense—if there is some advantage in waiting longer, I do
not get what. The only likely drawback for plugin maintainers who
deliberately wish to stay on a pre-2.361.x baseline is that Dependabot (if
configured) will offer `plugin-pom` updates that fail CI builds, which is
not so bad since the release notes will explain why, and the PR and its
replacements can simply be ignored indefinitely. (And of course you will
not get access to new stuff in the toolchain, but that seems fair.)

Independently of that, we can consider switching the default JDK for
ci.jenkins.io `buildPlugin` from 8 to 11. Even if your plugin supports
older baselines and Java 8, running the build on JDK 11 is typically fine,
since `-release 8` will ensure the right bytecode and even prevent the
infamous `ByteBuffer` problem. The likely issues: you will lose Java 8 test
coverage (while gaining 11 test coverage, which is more important!); and
occasionally some tool like `javadoc` will be stricter (in a way you ought
to fix anyway though you might have preferred to take your time).

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Re: Allow up to 2 elected board members from a single company

[Basil Crow]

+1 from me as well. Since the time the current rules were established,
Kohsuke has begun a new chapter
 in which he has
focused his attention on Launchable and decreased his involvement in the
Jenkins community and CloudBees. This proposal honors Kohsuke's
foundational contributions
 to the
Jenkins community while also acknowledging his shifting priorities and
empowering the Jenkins community to evolve accordingly.

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Next baseline shift

[Basil Crow]

Historically we have supported old baselines for a long time in the
build toolchain. The current build toolchain supports baselines as far
back as 2.249. This provides a high degree of flexibility for plugin
maintainers and ultimately end users.

Sustaining this level of compatibility across complex transitions like
the move to Java 11 and Jetty 10 comes at significant build toolchain
complexity, either in the form of conditional logic in a single-branch
build toolchain scheme (the current status quo) or in the form of
multiple branches (a hypothetical scenario). For example, the test
harness needs to support Java 8 in order to support 2.249, the need to
support Java 8 means the test harness cannot move to Jetty 10 (which
requires Java 11), and the test harness' continued use of Jetty 9
requires core to retain support both Jetty 9 and 10 (even though only
Jetty 10 is used in production use cases). Similarly, conditional
logic is required to set the Maven compiler release version to 11 for
plugins when newer baselines are in use, and even then that
conditional logic tends to trip up IDEs.

For these reasons, it is desirable to require a baseline of 2.361 or
later (and therefore Java 11) for plugins in the build toolchain
sooner rather than later. The advantage is that this allows us to
simplify and clean up conditional logic that is increasingly becoming
less relevant and a maintenance burden. The disadvantage of requiring
a baseline of 2.361 or later for plugins in late 2022 or early 2023
(as opposed to our usual timeline of e.g. late 2023 or early 2024) is
that it is more of an imposition on plugin maintainers and users of
older LTS lines. I believe that the advantages outweigh the
disadvantages and that we should do this sooner rather than later,
ideally in late 2022.

If the consensus is that we are OK with requiring a baseline of 2.361
or later for plugins in late 2022 (i.e., after the release of 2.375.x
LTS) or early 2023 (i.e., after the release of the next major LTS line
after 2.375), then I explicitly commit to implement the change in the
plugin parent POM (e.g., with regard to Java 8), test harness (e.g.,
with regard to Unicode properties files), HPI plugin (e.g., with
regard to the Maven compiler release version), core (e.g., with regard
to Jetty 9), annotation indexer, symbol annotation library, version
number library, and access modifier library, noting in the release
notes for all eight (8) components that this is a breaking change for
plugin maintainers and that plugin maintainers must use a baseline of
2.361 or later when upgrading to the latest build toolchain.

If you are in favor of requiring a baseline of 2.361 or later for
plugins in late 2022 or early 2023 and with me implementing this
transition in the manner described, please reply with your timeline
preference (either late 2022 or early 2023). If you are in favor of
maintaining a stable branch of the abovementioned eight (8) components
for older LTS lines, please reply stating whether you are willing to
do the implementation and release work (noting that I explicitly
decline to do this implementation and release work). If you are in
favor of any other proposal, please reply stating the alternative
proposal and whether you are willing to do the implementation work.

Thanks,
Basil

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Re: Servlet container support (was: Nov 28, 2022 Governance Board Agenda)

[Alex Earl]

Yeah, you have to set up some stuff in the Tomcat config for it to work.
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/66274652/jenkins-no-valid-crumb-was-included-in-request/71961904#71961904

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 10:13 AM 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <
jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I think slide has also found out that csrf tokens are also broken,
> something about ips not being passed properly.
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 8:47 AM 'Jesse Glick' via Jenkins Developers <
> jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:29 AM Mark Waite 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mark Waite to propose a pull request documenting the web application
>>> server support policy […]
>>>
>>>-
>>>   -
>>>  -
>>>
>>>  Many people are saying that “should work” but we don’t test
>>>  them
>>>  […]
>>> -
>>>
>>> All web containers moved to tier 2 except bundled web
>>> container
>>>
>>>
>> Not sure if there was a thread somewhere in which this topic was
>> discussed in writing, but my personal recommendation would be to formally
>> drop support for running in a general servlet container, so that you could
>> only use the bundled Winstone/Jetty via `java -jar jenkins.war` (we could
>> even drop aspects of the WAR packaging not needed by `executable.Main`).
>>
>> The obvious thing that does not work in other containers is WebSocket
>> support:
>> https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/blob/master/jep/222/README.adoc#non-jetty-containers
>>
>> I do not agree that the situation is analogous to the web browser, OS, or
>> Java support policy. We do not bundle a pretested web browser, JVM, or
>> operating system with Jenkins (except insofar as the latter two are
>> supplied by the Docker image).
>>
>> --
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>> 
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
>


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Re: Servlet container support (was: Nov 28, 2022 Governance Board Agenda)

['Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers]

I think slide has also found out that csrf tokens are also broken,
something about ips not being passed properly.

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 8:47 AM 'Jesse Glick' via Jenkins Developers <
jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:29 AM Mark Waite 
> wrote:
>
>> Mark Waite to propose a pull request documenting the web application
>> server support policy […]
>>
>>-
>>   -
>>  -
>>
>>  Many people are saying that “should work” but we don’t test them
>>  […]
>> -
>>
>> All web containers moved to tier 2 except bundled web
>> container
>>
>>
> Not sure if there was a thread somewhere in which this topic was discussed
> in writing, but my personal recommendation would be to formally drop
> support for running in a general servlet container, so that you could only
> use the bundled Winstone/Jetty via `java -jar jenkins.war` (we could even
> drop aspects of the WAR packaging not needed by `executable.Main`).
>
> The obvious thing that does not work in other containers is WebSocket
> support:
> https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/blob/master/jep/222/README.adoc#non-jetty-containers
>
> I do not agree that the situation is analogous to the web browser, OS, or
> Java support policy. We do not bundle a pretested web browser, JVM, or
> operating system with Jenkins (except insofar as the latter two are
> supplied by the Docker image).
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Missing a few governance meetings

[Oleg Nenashev]

Hello,

My apologies, I will have to skip a few upcoming governance meetings due to
personal reasons. I remain available for asynchronous queries,but please
expect delays in my responses. I plan to participate in the governance when
my time and state allow.

As a reminder, I also remain on sabbatical for Jenkins core
maintenance, until the war in Ukraine is over or so.

Best regards,
Oleg Nenashev

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Servlet container support (was: Nov 28, 2022 Governance Board Agenda)

['Jesse Glick' via Jenkins Developers]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:29 AM Mark Waite 
wrote:

> Mark Waite to propose a pull request documenting the web application
> server support policy […]
>
>-
>   -
>  -
>
>  Many people are saying that “should work” but we don’t test them
>  […]
> -
>
> All web containers moved to tier 2 except bundled web
> container
>
>
Not sure if there was a thread somewhere in which this topic was discussed
in writing, but my personal recommendation would be to formally drop
support for running in a general servlet container, so that you could only
use the bundled Winstone/Jetty via `java -jar jenkins.war` (we could even
drop aspects of the WAR packaging not needed by `executable.Main`).

The obvious thing that does not work in other containers is WebSocket
support:
https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/blob/master/jep/222/README.adoc#non-jetty-containers

I do not agree that the situation is analogous to the web browser, OS, or
Java support policy. We do not bundle a pretested web browser, JVM, or
operating system with Jenkins (except insofar as the latter two are
supplied by the Docker image).

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Re: Allow up to 2 elected board members from a single company

[Alex Earl]

+1 from me

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 7:05 AM Mark Waite 
wrote:

> The Jenkins elections have completed.   Thanks to Gavin Mogan and Ewelina
> Wilkosz for their two years of service on the board.  Thanks to Ulli Hafner
> and Alex Brandes for accepting the nominations as new members of the
> board.  They begin their service on the board December 3, 2022.
>
> I've submitted a pull request
>  proposing a
> revision to the board membership rules for next year's election (November
> 2023).  The proposal has been discussed in Jenkins board meetings.  I was
> asked to solicit opinions and encourage discussion in the larger community
> of Jenkins developers before a final decision by the board.
>
> The proposal is:
>
> *Allow up to 2 elected board members from a single company*
>
> Governance board needs members that are actively involved in the Jenkins
> project. By specifically allowing up to 2 elected board members from a
> single company, we do not create a majority of elected members of the board
> from a single company.
>
> The issue comes because the board has declared previously that Kohsuke is
> affiliated with CloudBees. His permanent membership on the board and his
> affiliation with CloudBees means that only one other person from CloudBees
> can serve on the board. The board needs more active participants to assist
> with the work of the board. Allowing 1 more board member from CloudBees or
> any other company that already has a member on the board will strengthen
> the board and its work to serve the Jenkins project.
>
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> 
> .
>


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Nov 28, 2022 Governance Board Agenda

[Mark Waite]

The governance board meets today at 6:00 PM UTC.  Draft agenda is available 
in the meeting notes 
.
  
All are welcome to attend.  See https://www.jenkins.io/events/

Agenda:

   - 
   
   News
   - 
  
  Jenkins 2.375.1 releases Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022
  - 
 
 Thanks to Alex Brandes for serving as release lead
 - 
   
   Action items
   - 
  
  Mark Waite create an empty agenda entry for the next meeting after 
  each meeting
  - 
  
  Mark Waite submit jenkins.io pull request to combine subprojects and 
  SIGs into a single concept - “working groups”
  - 
  
  Oleg Nenashev send proposal to Rick to retire the Chinese Jenkins site
  - 
  
  Mark Waite and Gavin Mogan archive the governance meeting notes to a 
  GitHub repository, use the Google doc as the working document, then 
publish 
  final notes to GitHub
  - 
  
  Mark Waite to use community.jenkins.io for the Jenkins Docs SIG 
  mailing list
  - 
 
 Consider asking Kevin Martens to take the lead on this one
 - 
  
  EasyCLA needs to be documented by Oleg
  - 
  
  Mark Waite to propose a pull request documenting the web application 
  server support policy (similar to browser support, Windows support, and 
  Linux support)
  - 
 
 Many people are saying that “should work” but we don’t test them
 - 

JENKINS_HOME is different in newer Tomcat
- 

No support for multiple Jenkins in a single Tomcat
- 

No Java EE 9 support
- 

All web containers moved to tier 2 except bundled web container
- 
   
   Can declare “known broken” conditions (Java EE vs. Jakarta 
   EE)
   - 
   
   Pull requests considered so long as they don’t harm tier 1
   - 
   
   Elections
   - 
  
  Mark Waite opened Jenkins developer discussion of proposed rule 
  changes for next year
  - 
 
 Allow up to 2 elected board members from a single company 
 
 
 - Jenkins developers
 - 
 
 GitHub pull request 
 
 - 
  
  Elections are complete.  Thanks to Gavin Mogan and Ewelina for their 
  2 years of service.  Welcome Ullrich Hafner and Alexander Brandes to the 
  board
  - 
  
  Permissions changes and membership changes for new board members?
  - 
   
   Governance board meeting time and date
   - 
  
  Find a time and date that works well for all board members
  - 
   
   CDF Outreach Reboot
   - 
  
  Dec 14, 2022 10:30 AM EST meeting to restart the outreach committee
  - 
 
 Contact Lori Lorusso for more information
 - 
 
 Alyssa Tong and Mark Waite will attend the meeting
 

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Allow up to 2 elected board members from a single company

[Mark Waite]

The Jenkins elections have completed.   Thanks to Gavin Mogan and Ewelina 
Wilkosz for their two years of service on the board.  Thanks to Ulli Hafner 
and Alex Brandes for accepting the nominations as new members of the 
board.  They begin their service on the board December 3, 2022.

I've submitted a pull request 
 proposing a 
revision to the board membership rules for next year's election (November 
2023).  The proposal has been discussed in Jenkins board meetings.  I was 
asked to solicit opinions and encourage discussion in the larger community 
of Jenkins developers before a final decision by the board.

The proposal is:

*Allow up to 2 elected board members from a single company*

Governance board needs members that are actively involved in the Jenkins 
project. By specifically allowing up to 2 elected board members from a 
single company, we do not create a majority of elected members of the board 
from a single company.

The issue comes because the board has declared previously that Kohsuke is 
affiliated with CloudBees. His permanent membership on the board and his 
affiliation with CloudBees means that only one other person from CloudBees 
can serve on the board. The board needs more active participants to assist 
with the work of the board. Allowing 1 more board member from CloudBees or 
any other company that already has a member on the board will strengthen 
the board and its work to serve the Jenkins project.

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