[josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
JOSM devs, with the templated TMS layer it is now trivial to display Google aerial imagery or Google maps as a background in JOSM. Doing so might violate Google's terms of use already (I am unsure but I guess that using their tiles without a Google logo is not OK); but of course using their data for anything to do with OSM is a big No-No. I wonder if we should thus build a blacklist into the Imagery layer so that it will refuse to use certain tile or WMS URLs. Potlatch already does this. This would of course be nannying our users, something I've always been against; our users should be able to make these decisions for themselves. On the other hand, where in the past it would at least have required some hacking and knowledge to use Google, it is now a simple entry in the imagery configuration and I fear that this makes it too easy (a novice could read this cool tip somewhere and apply it unthinkingly). If we ban Google backgrounds, of course anyone with a little Java skill (or a little web server redirection magic) could circumvent this, but at least if somebody compiles their own, modified JOSM version they cannot say that they didn't know. Another option that we could think about is setting certain tags on the uploaded changeset that indicate what background layers were used (e.g. source:tile-url=blah.google.com/blah/blah). We could inform users of our doing so but disallow removal of these tags, which would hopefully make sure they only use legal stuff. But that would run the risk of invading users' privacy (e.g. they could be using a tile source at the office intranet, thus betraying that they were mapping during working hours...). And of course this, too, could be circumvented. Opinions on the whole thing? Problem is, if it is *too* easy to load Google backgrounds, we (as a project) could be accused of knowingly inviting tracing from Google. Bye Frederik ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
El Thursday 27 January 2011, Frederik Ramm escribió: Opinions on the whole thing? Problem is, if it is too easy to load Google backgrounds, we (as a project) could be accused of knowingly inviting tracing from Google. I don't think this is a good idea. The technology is not bad, what is bad is the use of it. So, all the fault will be the user's fault. JOSM shouldn't be blamed for it. It's like this printers that don't let you scan or print money. As if a common user will be printing money to use it. Or as if real forger would use a common printer. Nonsense! What if I want to print money to play Monopoly? -- María Arias de Reyna Domínguez Área de Operaciones Emergya Consultoría Tfno: +34 954 51 75 77 / +34 607 43 74 27 Fax: +34 954 51 64 73 www.emergya.es ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org writes: I wonder if we should thus build a blacklist into the Imagery layer so that it will refuse to use certain tile or WMS URLs. Potlatch already does this. I'd just show a visible warning instead of having JOSM completely refuse. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
I agree that this isn't a good way to deal with the problem. Now with Bing there is a good alternative, so only a few 'hardliners' would like to do so, to make the current ultimate map of their area, with fresh material. I guess this guys are able to setup a proxy to do so. It's IMHO not on us to make sure that they use the right aerial imageries. Matthias ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
What about a big red must-read dialog box when using google? Nannying may be bad, but providing information isn't. Judging by the amount of “I've just used google maps to ... diary posts on osm.org this *will* lead to trouble otherwise. Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org schrieb: JOSM devs, with the templated TMS layer it is now trivial to display Google aerial imagery or Google maps as a background in JOSM. Doing so might violate Google's terms of use already (I am unsure but I guess that using their tiles without a Google logo is not OK); but of course using their data for anything to do with OSM is a big No-No. I wonder if we should thus build a blacklist into the Imagery layer so that it will refuse to use certain tile or WMS URLs. Potlatch already does this. This would of course be nannying our users, something I've always been against; our users should be able to make these decisions for themselves. On the other hand, where in the past it would at least have required some hacking and knowledge to use Google, it is now a simple entry in the imagery configuration and I fear that this makes it too easy (a novice could read this cool tip somewhere and apply it unthinkingly). If we ban Google backgrounds, of course anyone with a little Java skill (or a little web server redirection magic) could circumvent this, but at least if somebody compiles their own, modified JOSM version they cannot say that they didn't know. Another option that we could think about is setting certain tags on the uploaded changeset that indicate what background layers were used (e.g. source:tile-url=blah.google.com/blah/blah). We could inform users of our doing so but disallow removal of these tags, which would hopefully make sure they only use legal stuff. But that would run the risk of invading users' privacy (e.g. they could be using a tile source at the office intranet, thus betraying that they were mapping during working hours...). And of course this, too, could be circumvented. Opinions on the whole thing? Problem is, if it is *too* easy to load Google backgrounds, we (as a project) could be accused of knowingly inviting tracing from Google. Bye Frederik ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Another option that we could think about is setting certain tags on the uploaded changeset that indicate what background layers were used (e.g. source:tile-url=blah.google.com/blah/blah). We could inform users of our doing so but disallow removal of these tags, which would hopefully make sure they only use legal stuff. But that would run the risk of invading users' privacy (e.g. they could be using a tile source at the office intranet, thus betraying that they were mapping during working hours...). And of course this, too, could be circumvented. Please, if this is implemented have an option to turn it off. I already tag as source:location=nearmap. And yes, often I use LAN addresses as custom sources, these would have no meaning to someone else, so if such a feature did happen, please give a nice option in Preferences to turn it off. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
Stefan wrote: Judging by the amount of “I've just used google maps to ... diary posts on osm.org this *will* lead to trouble otherwise. Yep. Potlatch 1 always checked for the presence of 'google' in the tile URL and refused to display the tile if so. When Potlatch 2 was first released, we hadn't added this check (it was a TODO but I was also slightly intrigued to see what would happen). Sure enough, within about a week, people were jubilantly posting Potlatch 2 allows you to trace from Google! in the Russian OSM forum - and were doing so. When asked to stop, one typical response is I don't think it's illegal and I don't care. So I added the block back in, with some degree of reluctance but no great surprise. I think Frederik's right when he says Problem is, if it is *too* easy to load Google backgrounds, we (as a project) could be accused of knowingly inviting tracing from Google. We can't prevent it entirely, but if OSM is ever sued for infringement it will aid our case enormously to show that we have taken reasonable measures to discourage it. That's not too far-fetched: I believe OSMF did recently receive a cease and desist from one geodata supplier who believes their rights have been infringed. With that in mind, I believe the block in Potlatch is a responsible decision to help the future of the project, and it would gladden me to see JOSM do the same. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Fwd-Filter-Google-from-Imagery-tp5965655p5965776.html Sent from the JOSM Development mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
2011/1/27 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: violate Google's terms of use already (I am unsure but I guess that using their tiles without a Google logo is not OK) +1, I guess so too. ; but of course using their data for anything to do with OSM is a big No-No. well, comparing should be OK (but in many areas of little use, because their resolution is mostly great, but the positional accuracy often isn't). If we ban Google backgrounds, of course anyone with a little Java skill (or a little web server redirection magic) could circumvent this yes, but as you point out: it will strengthen our position in the case when Google sues us for infringement (we could point to the user and say that we took reasonable measures to avoid it). Another option that we could think about is setting certain tags on the uploaded changeset that indicate what background layers were used (e.g. source:tile-url=blah.google.com/blah/blah). -1 for privacy reasons we could also allow to display the Google tiles, and display a Google logo (and fullfill all other requirements on behalf of Google if there are), but deactivate all editing while they are displayed (i.e. no selection, creation, deletion and movement of points, ways and relations, no tag editing). Cheers, Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:20:10 +1100, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Another option that we could think about is setting certain tags on the uploaded changeset that indicate what background layers were used (e.g. source:tile-url=blah.google.com/blah/blah). We could inform users of our doing so but disallow removal of these tags, which would hopefully make sure they only use legal stuff. But that would run the risk of invading users' privacy (e.g. they could be using a tile source at the office intranet, thus betraying that they were mapping during working hours...). And of course this, too, could be circumvented. Please, if this is implemented have an option to turn it off. I already tag as source:location=nearmap. It could be useful to have this as an extra option to automatically add user defined source (not tile urls, which may be a local proxy or so) - the default presets should have some reasonable values (those currently used) defined for this, like source=landsat, etc ... So while providing good defaults, anybody can change them or turn them off. Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] House number interpolation tool / plugin ?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Lambertus o...@na1400.info wrote: Hi Nic, A while ago I've done a bit of work on the terracer plugin (lets you terrace buildings and easilly add housenumbers to buildings). I think I should be able to make what you want. How about: one adds the addr:housenumber tags to the two outer nodes, select both nodes including a street then hit the key combination that opens a screen which lets you add the rest of the addr:* values if you want and/or hit enter to have the plugin create the intermediate nodes, save the values to the nodes and also add the address relation. Hello Lambertus, I'm don't want to break the interpolated way down into nodes at this stage. If an inaccuracy creeps in, then any subsequent fix may require many nodes to be moved. I also don't want dialogs. Otherwise I will never finish. In Josm, is there a way to bind a key combination to a certain tag ? I want one key combination for addr:interpolation = even and another one for addr:interpolation = odd. This is very similar behavior like the terracer plugin. What do you think of that? Fidling with the math to get the interpolated node positions right with a curvy road will be the biggest challenge I reckon. I got a lot of experience with 2D vectors over the last few years. Equirectangular projection. Perpendicular vectors, projecting a point into a line without trig, testing that angles are within certain ranges with trig, etc. On 2011-01-22 16:46, Nic Roets wrote: Hello, I live in an area where very few house numbers have been collected. So I made a couple of experiments. One of them is an Android App called KeypadMapper that allows me to type in housenumbers while I cycle, at a rate of 300 per hour. The only disadvantage is that it does not do interpolation. So if the houses are on both sides of the street and are 30 meters apart, I cannot cycle faster than 300 / 2 * 30 = 4,5 km/h or I will miss some. http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/1385/what-is-the-best-mobile-application-for-large-scale-house-number-collection The other experiment was to collect only the numbers at the end points and then draw interpolation ways. The good thing is that we already have a great open source geocoder that supports it, namely Nominatim. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-25.77512lon=28.2892zoom=17layers=M My only complaint is that it takes a lot of work to add the interpolation ways. So I want to ask anyone on this list with to write a plugin for Josm to speed up the process. It would be ideal if I can just: 1. Select 2 nodes that are tagged with addr:housenumber set and 2. Hit a button or key combination for Interpolate The plugin will then 3. For each node, calculate the nearest way tagged as highway. If it was 2 different ways, the plugin can abort or try to handle it more intelligently. 4. Generate a way between the two nodes that runs parallel runs to that way. 5. Automatically set the odd or even tag to match the contents of the addr:housenumber tags on the nodes. I know I sound lazy. But a tool like this will save me hundreds of man hours over the next couple of years. The area I want to cover includes over 20,000 streets and over 100,000 houses. Regards, Nic ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
Hi, Ulf Lamping wrote: Reasoning: Using Google or alike to check a GPX trace to be reasonable (e.g. the shape of the track corresponds to the aerial imagery) But then again, there are myriad tools out there that can be used for exactly that. Google Earth, for example. I agree with you that this is a legitimate use of Google data but I don't think that this necessarily has to be done with JOSM. On the contrary, by saying: We want to make it easy FOR JOSM USERS to check their GPX traces against Google imagery is already on the edge because JOSM is mainly and primarily an OSM upload tool. Maybe we should make a version of JOSM that has no OSM editing capability (just drop the OSM data layer and all functions related to it). That could then display anything you want. I've added a very simple blacklisting mechanism now that basically sets a blacklisted flag on the imagery layer and, for now, simply grays out blacklisted entries in the imagery menu. If someone fancies, they could modify that to do all sort of warning messages etc.; however after this discussion I am pretty sure that whatever we do we must make sure that you are only allowed to upload or save OSM data if you have either not displayed Google images, or not modified your data after doing so. No amount of yes I am really sure buttons should allow you to bypass that - we can always do a warning message that goes: Warning, unsaved data. You requested to display a blacklisted background layer. You will not be able to save or upload your edits after enabling that layer. Are you sure you want to proceed or whatever. I understand that there will be a tiny fraction of users negatively affected by this, but I think it is necessary. We've witnessed a growing number of Google violations in the past year and I would not want JOSM's reputation to be tainted as the editor that makes this easy. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de writes: Now with Bing there is a good alternative, so only a few 'hardliners' would like to do so, to make the current ultimate map of their area, with fresh material. I guess this guys are able to setup a proxy to do so. It's IMHO not on us to make sure that they use the right aerial imageries. There are still many areas where Google's imagery is a lot better than Bing's. Like right here where I live Bing imagery only goes to z13. Yahoo's images are already a lot better and allow some tracing. But, the best by far are Google's. The temptation is certainly still there. Matthias ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] link up in wiki help does not work for action pages
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi. We have a problem with the page names under wiki help. All the links up from actions pages do not work because the page actions does not exist. It is rather splitted in several pages (menu). Maybe it is possible to move the pages from wiki:/help/actions/ to wiki:/help/[menu_name]/[action_name] and forward from the old to the new page See you and thanks for your work. colliar -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1CMFkACgkQalWTFLzqsCvjBQCgtpoczbfr1LTktjnUhpnz5Vej nhwAn2VJx3/4ZpYdY41QnwaF5UQGI29E =929S -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I understand that there will be a tiny fraction of users negatively affected by this, but I think it is necessary. We've witnessed a growing number of Google violations in the past year and I would not want JOSM's reputation to be tainted as the editor that makes this easy. Oh please. A tiny fraction? I'm sure there are lots of people who use Google aerials to trace for OSM. We just aren't dumb enough to tell anyone about it. At the very least allow people to use whatever imagery that they want when they're using non-openstreetmap servers. This can then be yet another reason to use a fork, and not OSM. Or do you really want to force us to fork JOSM too? ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: At the very least allow people to use whatever imagery that they want when they're using non-openstreetmap servers. Better yet, just send the user-agent JOSM with every request. Let Google decide whether or not to block access. Any blacklist you devise will be easily defeated anyway. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
