Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:46:47PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: > So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles > is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. > > Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs > (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) > this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a > drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role > members. I still dont get it - Which relation would need this as a role? If this is a signposted destination i would expect it in the destination or destination:lane tag on the road as west e.g. destination:lanes=West;Los Angeles|East;Boston For example Mapfactor Navigator will use this to show destinations. backward/forward as role are in relation to the ways direction. A tag can either have a meaning in forward or backward or both directions on a way. There is no way a tag has a meaning in 56° left of the way. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] [Talk-us] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Martijn, I want to make sure I understand what you're trying to convey to the group. Are you saying that If a way has a member role value of "east" then east will mean forward and then west (it's opposite) would mean backward? Example logic: ** If member role = east, node direction is eastbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'west' ** If member role = west, node direction is westbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'east' ** If member role = north, node direction is northbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'south' ** If member role = south, node direction is southbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'north' If the logic I stated above successfully captured with your suggestion, then I would like to expand on it. Why not just make the cardinal direction value-forward/backward value relationship a bit more simpler? I would like to cite Peter Davies' discussion on the Highway Directions in the US wiki page. He stated that milepoints increase as highways that trend northward or eastward--say positive direction. So if one is traveling south or west on a highway, the milepoints are decreasing--say negative direction. With this in mind, couldn't we just say that north/east = forward (forward movement is positive!) and west/south=backward (backward movement is negative!)? If we're digitizing our edges, the suggestion would be to set the node direction of two-way, aka single-carriageway roads, into a positive direction and the member roles values to north or east. Basically what you did for http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2308411, but setting the single-carriageway/two-way roads to 'east' instead of 'west'. Thoughts Martijn? Others?? Best, Kristen --- OSM Profile → http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/KristenK -Original Message- From: Martijn van Exel [mailto:m...@rtijn.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:47 PM To: Ian Dees Cc: Florian Lohoff; OpenStreetMap-Josm MailConf; OSM US Talk Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward Yes, sorry for not being clearer. As Ian indicates, this is the *signposted cardinal direction* of a numbered road route, which does not change with the actual compass direction of the road. The guiding principle for the United States is that the odd numbered Interstates are north/south, and the even numbered Interstates are east/west. This is independent from the local compass direction. So for example, I-80 is east-west, but runs almost north-south locally (for example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/203317481) but the sign would still say 'I-80 East' (or West as the case may be). So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. Hope this clarifies somewhat! Martijn On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ian Dees wrote: > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff wrote: >> >> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I'm new to this list so please bear with me. >> > The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' >> > roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost >> > column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very >> > common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they >> > are officially signposted. >> >> I would be very careful in using this. Is this really "south" e.g. >> 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ? >> >> Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are >> only rough directions. >> >> Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data >> Consumers to process and interpret data. > > > No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. > For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a > compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were > pointing > north: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Good point Andy. We would need to clarify the cardinal direction member roles on the wiki for specific regions more. I created a stub of a wiki page that describes proposed (and followed) practice in the U.S: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Directions_In_The_United_States - this page is currently a little messy as we're still debating some of the intricacies. Feel free to help work on it, perhaps we can work up an international page from this. Martijn On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:42 PM, SomeoneElse wrote: > Paul Norman wrote: >>> >>> No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the >>> road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, > > > ... in the sense that if you carried on for long enough you'd eventually end > of west of where you started ... > >>> but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were >>> pointing >>> north: >>> >>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 >>> So - North would be "straight on", east would be "left", west would be >>> "right" in 99% of the other countries? >> >> You'd have to ask someone with those other countries. That particular >> way is part of the I-94 with role west, and you'd tell someone to get >> on the I-94 west, even if they're physically driving north. >> >> > > One other place where I've seen bits of roads routinely described and signed > as "West" etc. is the A10 around Amsterdam: > > http://www.wegenwiki.nl/A10_%28Nederland%29#Westring > > Here "West" means "the part that is west of the city", so (if you're coming > from the north) "the part that is actually going south". > > Cheers, > > Andy > > > > ___ > josm-dev mailing list > josm-dev@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Yes, sorry for not being clearer. As Ian indicates, this is the *signposted cardinal direction* of a numbered road route, which does not change with the actual compass direction of the road. The guiding principle for the United States is that the odd numbered Interstates are north/south, and the even numbered Interstates are east/west. This is independent from the local compass direction. So for example, I-80 is east-west, but runs almost north-south locally (for example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/203317481) but the sign would still say 'I-80 East' (or West as the case may be). So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. Hope this clarifies somewhat! Martijn On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ian Dees wrote: > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff wrote: >> >> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I'm new to this list so please bear with me. >> > The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' >> > roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost >> > column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very >> > common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are >> > officially signposted. >> >> I would be very careful in using this. Is this really "south" e.g. >> 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ? >> >> Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are >> only rough directions. >> >> Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers >> to process and interpret data. > > > No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. > For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a > compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing > north: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Paul Norman wrote: No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, ... in the sense that if you carried on for long enough you'd eventually end of west of where you started ... but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 So - North would be "straight on", east would be "left", west would be "right" in 99% of the other countries? You'd have to ask someone with those other countries. That particular way is part of the I-94 with role west, and you'd tell someone to get on the I-94 west, even if they're physically driving north. One other place where I've seen bits of roads routinely described and signed as "West" etc. is the A10 around Amsterdam: http://www.wegenwiki.nl/A10_%28Nederland%29#Westring Here "West" means "the part that is west of the city", so (if you're coming from the north) "the part that is actually going south". Cheers, Andy ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
> From: Florian Lohoff [mailto:f...@zz.de] > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:14 PM > Subject: Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and > east/west similar to forward/backward > > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:57:40PM -0600, Ian Dees wrote: > > > > No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the > > road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, > > but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were > > pointing > > north: > > > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 > > So - North would be "straight on", east would be "left", west would be > "right" in 99% of the other countries? You'd have to ask someone with those other countries. That particular way is part of the I-94 with role west, and you'd tell someone to get on the I-94 west, even if they're physically driving north. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:57:40PM -0600, Ian Dees wrote: > > No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the > road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but > a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing > north: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 So - North would be "straight on", east would be "left", west would be "right" in 99% of the other countries? Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Hi! On 26/11/13 20:30, Martijn van Exel wrote: I want to reopen that discussion and see if there is support for treating north/south and east/west as first class citizens similar to forward/backward in the relation editor (and perhaps in other parts, perhaps the validator and way direction reversing code?). As far as I understand, there's nothing against better supporting north/south/east/west roles in JOSM. If there's a clear and also computable interpretation of north/south/east/west for the icons in the relation editor, please open a ticket and describe, how that should look like. The same holds for unexpected behaviour of the validator or way direction reversing code. To see how those icons in the relation editor are determined at the moment, you could refer to the class http://josm.openstreetmap.de/browser/josm/trunk/src/org/openstreetmap/josm/gui/dialogs/relation/sort/WayConnectionTypeCalculator.java Cheers, Simon (simon04) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On 11/26/13 4:51 PM, Florian Lohoff wrote: > Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are > only rough directions. > > Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers > to process and interpret data. > what Martjin is after is improving the situation for routing engines that use OSM data. in the US at least, highways, regardless of their actual direction, are assigned cardinal directions and signage frequently uses those directions. the premise is that if the cardinal directions are recorded in an appropriate manner (e.g., as the roles for ways in a route relation) then they are available for the spoken directions from a routing widget of some sort. richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff wrote: > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm new to this list so please bear with me. > > The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' > > roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost > > column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very > > common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are > > officially signposted. > > I would be very careful in using this. Is this really "south" e.g. > 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ? > > Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are > only rough directions. > > Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers > to process and interpret data. No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm new to this list so please bear with me. > The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' > roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost > column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very > common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are > officially signposted. I would be very careful in using this. Is this really "south" e.g. 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ? Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are only rough directions. Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers to process and interpret data. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] Build error
A newbie question - if I import the JOSM project into Eclipse I get the following build errors: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s9/sh/45768650-1ed9-49b1-b35a-b0f98d3c4fb9/35294c1166733424bd30139386f6f9c1 I'm sure there are some setup instructions I am not following - could someone point me in the right direction please? Thanks, Martijn -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Hi all, I'm new to this list so please bear with me. The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are officially signposted. There was some discussion in the original relation editor enhancement ticket: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/5109#comment:42 where Petr_Dlouhy dismisses support for these member roles. I want to reopen that discussion and see if there is support for treating north/south and east/west as first class citizens similar to forward/backward in the relation editor (and perhaps in other parts, perhaps the validator and way direction reversing code?). I am crossposting to talk-us because this discussion is going on there at the moment. I would be more than happy to put in some of the work required to implement this support. Thanks, Martijn -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
