Re: [kde-community] Proper KDE SDK - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Pau Garcia i Quiles pgqui...@elpauer.org wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 11:00 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: * Can we create a proper KDE SDK? We have the SDK module which is really a mix of general development related apps and KDE-specific dev tools, and we have Examples, and we have a few other bits-and-pieces scattered around. Can we split the apps off to stand on their own repos in Extragear, and merge Examples and the other tools into SDK? We can, it just needs manpower ;-) I think I have been asking for a KDE SDK for the last 7 years :-) KF5 should make that easier, given that there are many small parts. Another idea: let's make the different parts of the SDK (Tier 1 components, Tier 2 components, etc) available from a repository that could be integrated in the Qt SDK Maintenance Tool. This task is very time consuming (lots of rebuilds and tests) but it shouldn't be too difficult from a technical point of view. It essentially requires CMake knowledge. Jenkins knowledge and access to a powerful build machine would be a plus. It's a pity GSoC is so far yet :-/ I'd suggest this get integrated into our existing CI scripts to make it easier to perform when needed - they already have 99% of the structure and other necessary capability to build all of the frameworks. I'd advise against doing this as part of a GSoC project however - other than producing the necessary metadata to make the repository there wouldn't be too much to actually code... The repository in question can probably be distributed via files.kde.org. -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer) Thanks, Ben Cooksley ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 22:56:12 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: Hi, * Do we need small utilities like KCalc as stand-alone apps, or do they belong in Workspaces, perhaps as Plasmoids? Where do we draw the line between them? And if there's both a Plasmoid and an App for something, which goes in the main release? Please don't force plasmoids down my throat. Why would i want a calculator as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing? Especially with KCalc I'd be very very very conservative of removing it in favour of some (potentially less capable) plasmoid. I know for a fact that KCalc is widely used, and there was a discussion about it some in 2007: http://www.mail-archive.com/release-team@kde.org/msg01065.html The bottom line is: KCalc is needed, most probably in the current form. Greetings, Dominik ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 22:56:12 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: Hi, * Do we need small utilities like KCalc as stand-alone apps, or do they belong in Workspaces, perhaps as Plasmoids? Where do we draw the line between them? And if there's both a Plasmoid and an App for something, which goes in the main release? Please don't force plasmoids down my throat. That is not a real threat, and phrasing it like it is a real threat feels extremely disrespectful. As the person who came up with and used to maintain this part of KDE, It makes me feel like you think I’ve been wandering around forcing people to do things they don’t want to and that makes me feel very uncomfortable. Why would i want a calculator as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing? What’s worse than insulting another person is doing so from ignorance. We’ve had plasma-windows for ages now which runs plasmoids in their own independent window like a mini application. For apps like ksnapshot and kcalc the results would be identical or nearly so (kcalc would require support for putting a menu[bar] somewhere, or reorganizing how those particular features are presented). (I won’t even get into the dashboard or panels ...) We also have an “application” form factor for plasmoids for ~1 year now which allows these components to make useful adjustments between being embedded as a plasmoid component and being run as a top-level window. I don’t think it makes huge amounts of sense to turn ksnapshot into a plasmoid, but KCalc probably would as it would give us feature parity between the version on the desktop (and panels). Right now we have 2 calculators with differing features and levels of maintenance. Should we force kcalc to port to QML and become a plasmoid? No, because it is up to the maintainer .. but I think we ought to think about these things in non-reactive, accurate technical terms where the goal is ‘what is the best end result for the user’. -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Essential Applications - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On 2014-01-15, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: tarball? An XML file somewhere? Personally I find distros should be smart enough to decide which apps they want to ship by default and which not. I've actually in my distribution tried to ship stuff, including package selection, quite close to what is shipped by upstream, even when it not might be the best final choice for users, *because* that's what KDE is shipping, so should we. /Sune ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday 16 January 2014 10:43:42 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 22:56:12 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: Hi, * Do we need small utilities like KCalc as stand-alone apps, or do they belong in Workspaces, perhaps as Plasmoids? Where do we draw the line between them? And if there's both a Plasmoid and an App for something, which goes in the main release? Please don't force plasmoids down my throat. That is not a real threat, and phrasing it like it is a real threat feels extremely disrespectful. As the person who came up with and used to maintain this part of KDE, It makes me feel like you think I’ve been wandering around forcing people to do things they don’t want to and that makes me feel very uncomfortable. Aaron, please assume good intentions. We all know Albert and we all know that his writing reads more harsh than he intents to. I do not see any of your conclusions in his writing. Let's stay positive in this discussion. If we start to fight with each other we won't find a solution. Technically I agree with Albert's concern that Plasmoids as app replacements might not be a good idea. And I read the part in John's mail as rather an example than an actual suggestion. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
Hey, On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:43:42 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: Why would i want a calculator as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing? What’s worse than insulting another person is doing so from ignorance. I think this is really not the way we should discuss things. Accusing Albert of insulting anybody is not necessary, accusing him of doing it out of ignorance is clearly against our code of conduct. There are very good reasons to respect the CoC much better, especially when it comes to discussions around Plasma, we *need* to do better here. This discussion will not lead anywhere if we start out with negative assumption about anyone's intentions. As to the topic, I think both have their use-cases, and their not mutually exclusive either. It seems to me like it's easy enough to find a distribution model that satisfies both, the tools as separate windows faction, and the tools as part of the workspace faction. Cheers, -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Applications hopping in and out of the coordinated release - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:23:23 Martin Graesslin wrote: On Wednesday 15 January 2014 23:06:26 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: We can still have a regular KDE Applications Release, but it is then up to individual communities or applications to opt in to that release cycle, or to decide to release on their own cycle. Strong communities with a distinct identity in the wider FOSS world, like PIM or Games or Calligra, may find it better to have their own separate release cycles and promo efforts, but I suspect most will stay with the regular release cycle. Hopping in an out of a release cycle is a pain in the ass for those making the release, at the moment we release around 160 git repos. If someone needs to herd 160 (actually more since you want to split more stuff) maintainers to find out what needs and what not every 4 weeks, you can find a lot of money for that guy since it's going to be the worst job ever. sounds like we need better tooling to make the release happen then. I assume we could put effort into making such a process work. After all we are a bunch of highly skilled hackers ;-) My dream would be to just have to click a button on build.kde.org and it starts to create the tarball, test compile and run unit tests. If all succeeds put on ftp.kde.org. Reducing the amount of work so that the maintainer of the apps could do it themselves. I think that solves maybe our side of the problem, but it will cause pain downstream. Whenever our set of packages or the structure of them change, there's all the distros that ship our software are going to have to change their packaging as well. Our own release management is just the tip of the iceberg. This problem, it seems to me, can only be solved by a stable set of modules and structure. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:35:29 Sebastian Kügler wrote: I think this is really not the way we should discuss things. Accusing Albert of insulting anybody is not necessary, accusing him of doing it out of ignorance is clearly against our code of conduct. Fine; so when someone says “I need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it” and that is blatantly false, how would you like me to respond? That particular statement has been used for years and I’ve patiently corrected it time and again, and it is still used to justify things like “don’t force this down our throat”. That is not fair play. It seems that CoC applies to me, while it’s cool for Albert to say things like “don’t force plasmoids down my throat”. Yay for double standards and not having any sort of expectation of fair play. -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: We’ve had plasma-windows for ages now which runs plasmoids in their own independent window like a mini application. For apps like ksnapshot and kcalc the results would be identical or nearly so (kcalc would require support for putting a menu[bar] somewhere, or reorganizing how those particular features are presented). I also thought about plasma-windowed when reading that :) However, I think it is one of those hidden gems that nobody knows about. I've had questions like can I run $applet stand-alone on the user support lists a couple of times and plasma-windowed was the answer. Its drawback currently is that it is not very easy to figure out what to pass as its commandline argument. We also have an “application” form factor for plasmoids for ~1 year now which allows these components to make useful adjustments between being embedded as a plasmoid component and being run as a top-level window. Wow, nice! I don't think I've ever heard about this before and I am even monitoring plasma-devel. I don’t think it makes huge amounts of sense to turn ksnapshot into a plasmoid, but KCalc probably would as it would give us feature parity between the version on the desktop (and panels). Right now we have 2 calculators with differing features and levels of maintenance. I think these kind of convergences will become more natural once we can do traditional UI with QML (either through QtQuick.Controls or DeclarativeWidgets). Using the same application logic both for stand-alone application as well as Plasma applet becomes trivial then. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Proper KDE SDK - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
Hello, Where can I find the CI scripts? If someone could give me access to Jenkins and give me a little introduction to what's already in place for CI, I can probably help with automating the SDK generation so that it's available from the Qt SDK Maintenance Tool. I am attending FOSDEM, in case you think it's easier to explain in person. On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Ben Cooksley bcooks...@kde.org wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Pau Garcia i Quiles pgqui...@elpauer.org wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 11:00 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: * Can we create a proper KDE SDK? We have the SDK module which is really a mix of general development related apps and KDE-specific dev tools, and we have Examples, and we have a few other bits-and-pieces scattered around. Can we split the apps off to stand on their own repos in Extragear, and merge Examples and the other tools into SDK? We can, it just needs manpower ;-) I think I have been asking for a KDE SDK for the last 7 years :-) KF5 should make that easier, given that there are many small parts. Another idea: let's make the different parts of the SDK (Tier 1 components, Tier 2 components, etc) available from a repository that could be integrated in the Qt SDK Maintenance Tool. This task is very time consuming (lots of rebuilds and tests) but it shouldn't be too difficult from a technical point of view. It essentially requires CMake knowledge. Jenkins knowledge and access to a powerful build machine would be a plus. It's a pity GSoC is so far yet :-/ I'd suggest this get integrated into our existing CI scripts to make it easier to perform when needed - they already have 99% of the structure and other necessary capability to build all of the frameworks. I'd advise against doing this as part of a GSoC project however - other than producing the necessary metadata to make the repository there wouldn't be too much to actually code... The repository in question can probably be distributed via files.kde.org. -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer) Thanks, Ben Cooksley ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer) ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:47:13 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:35:29 Sebastian Kügler wrote: I think this is really not the way we should discuss things. Accusing Albert of insulting anybody is not necessary, accusing him of doing it out of ignorance is clearly against our code of conduct. Fine; so when someone says “I need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it” and that is blatantly false, how would you like me to respond? I think your further explanation was just fine, but the bit about insults and ignorance was unnecessary to explain that point. To me don't force plasmoids down my throat doesn't read insulting towards Plasma creators, John offered the idea (and I didn't get the impression that John felt particularly insulted by it -- correct me if I'm wrong though). It was a reply to John's crazy ideas. (Where crazy clearly means good.) The bottom line is that it would have been easy to *not* take this personal. That particular statement has been used for years and I’ve patiently corrected it time and again, and it is still used to justify things like “don’t force this down our throat”. That is not fair play. Just to point out the obvious, while it might be human to lose patience, it's not OK, and certainly not helpful. It seems that CoC applies to me, while it’s cool for Albert to say things like “don’t force plasmoids down my throat”. Yay for double standards and not having any sort of expectation of fair play. That's not my impression at all. The CoC applies to everyone, and even if someone doesn't keep to it, that's not a justification for someone else to ignore it. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Non Api-stable libraries/frameworks - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 12:00:36 Kevin Krammer wrote: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 01:33:34, Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: * Application domain-specific libraries such as libkipi or libkcddb may now be better organised under Frameworks rather than their modules, where they could gain a wider user base and a clearer maintenance viability. Can we have a Frameworks category for non-api stable libraries? I am not sure I would call it Frameworks, but yes, that makes total sense, for example at the moment our mobipocket library just uses QtCore and QtGui but since it's using all the KDE cmake stuff it's not that easy to re-use from the outside. I also think it is important to not call those Frameworks, because it dilutes the assumption we want developers to make about Frameworks, e.g. stable, maintained, scheduled releases, etc. This is a very important point. We've had some discussions during the Plasma sprint (which I'm currently attending), and make it a Framework was offered as a solution to scope some libraries. While I think that should in principle be possible, separate libraries do not automatically become frameworks. The fact that they're split and less interdependent makes it easier to have a bigger set of libraries, but it's really important that we only ship libraries that satisfy a certain set of qualities, such as API and ABI stability, complete documentation, unit-testing, etc. Otherwise, our newly created Frameworks brand will quickly lose its meaning and value, and worse, devalue other, high-quality libraries' reputations. Strong requirements are a good thing here. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Essential Applications - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday 16 January 2014 11:56:08 Sebastian Kügler wrote: On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 23:46:29 Adriaan de Groot wrote: On Wednesday 15 January 2014 23:13:11 Albert Astals Cid wrote: Besides how would you define this KDE Essential Applications group? I mean a tarball? An XML file somewhere? Personally I find distros should It's still nice to have some kind of grouping defined by the KDE release; the reason for that being that it's much easier to say install kdegames I'm not sure the current categorisation works very well here, for example installing kdegraphics gives you a whole bunch of graphics-related tools, but probably too many (and then some are missing, such as digikam), and workflows might still not be complete. (Underlying assumptions, the user wants to accomplish a task, not run an application.) Well-said. This is a topic in FreeBSD-packaging land right now, actually: how to make all the little KDE Applications visible (stuff pulled from extragear or third-party stuff that doesn't currently belong to one of the old-fashioned SVN module groupings). And, as you point out, digiKam is a natural for the kde graphics (well, is it?) grouping, even if it's not actually in that repository. A brainfart: rather than categorizing applications by their domain, maybe providing sets of apps for certain workflows or usecases, a vertical, rather than a horizontal integration, if you wish. I like the idea, but fear for its practicality. Figuring out what the vertical is (pick a metier, ambacht or trade here -- say Photography) and which apps service it will take quite a bit of thinking. On the other hand, it might start something really nice: metaports, or software products (or whatever your distro + package manager calls it) that map to what people want to do .. oh, wait, you wrote that already: For example: a SOHO metapackage would ship Calligra Sheets and Words, Kraft, Kontact. A primary educational metapackage would ship edu apps suitable for a certain age. A Tablet metapackage would include Plasma Active's UI, Krita Sketch, and other touch-suitable apps, and so on. These metapackages could even cause configuration changes elsewhere, so installing a hobby photographer metapackage would add an Activity for this task in Plasma Desktop. These metapackages can of course overlap (as it's really just a dependency definition), but it would it make it easier to create coherent, yet complete systems, and be a way to reflect a clearer vision for apps and sets of apps towards the actual use-cases. A distro could also evaluate the packages available, of course, and add cheese to hobby photographer, replacing whatever (*is* there even an equivalent?) KDE has there, in order to provide the best-possible set of apps for that vertical. But I don't think that Scuba-diving C++ programmer is going to be a viable metapackage any time soon. [ade] ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Essential Applications - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 12:15:05 Adriaan de Groot wrote: But I don't think that Scuba-diving C++ programmer is going to be a viable metapackage any time soon. No, but it could be a “Sports and Fitness” metapackage. There are a remarkable number of such apps for Android, for instance. (Well, remarkable at least to me ... :) Did you know there is a running app that simulates being in a zombie apocolypse? There’s a whole multi-month workout routine built around this story line and it’s quite popular. It even has multiple “seasons” of storyline now! If we had a “Sports and Fitness” metapackage that only included a scuba-diving app right now, it might inspire people to think about the possibilities and create more apps in this category. tl;dr - This approach of having metapackages for everything might be a positive thing, even in the odd cases of “single entry” packages. ..and of course, if there was just only “Sports and Fitness” application on git.kde.org, distros could merge with apps from other projects as you noted about “hobby photographer”. -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday 16 January 2014 13:24:51 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: Martin Graesslin wrote: 'We all know Albert and we all know that his writing reads more harsh than he intents to.’ IOW: it’s OK for Albert, because we all know he’s gruff and we should accommodate that. Others are routinely granted clemency for one reason or another, but should I not respond in perfect pitch to every email I get a different response. Aaron, in my first reply to your sub-thread I asked you to assume good intentions. My mail was obviously also intended to be a note to Albert that his comment was way too harsh and out of line. There was no reason to turn this so negative. I'm disappointed and it hurts to read that friends are accusing me of having double standards. -- Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday 16 January 2014 14:48:22 Martin Graesslin wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2014 13:24:51 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: Martin Graesslin wrote: 'We all know Albert and we all know that his writing reads more harsh than he intents to.’ IOW: it’s OK for Albert, because we all know he’s gruff and we should accommodate that. Others are routinely granted clemency for one reason or another, but should I not respond in perfect pitch to every email I get a different response. Aaron, in my first reply to your sub-thread I asked you to assume good intentions. My mail was obviously also intended to be a note to Albert that his comment was way too harsh and out of line. There was no reason to turn this so negative. I'm disappointed and it hurts to read that friends are accusing me of having double standards. Threading is done in such a way that I pretty much read it like Aaron to be honest. So your intent was maybe... not that obvious. ;-) Aren't mailing lists great? Not really no... Cheers. -- Kévin Ottens, http://ervin.ipsquad.net KDAB - proud supporter of KDE, http://www.kdab.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
My 2 cents on this: I agree that Albert's original phrasing here wasn't great, and I wouldn't have ignored it myself. Assuming good intentions has to go both ways, and reacting to a *question* (like Should we do these as Plasmoids?) with You're going to kill my baby seals, I know it! is exactly the sort of cutting-short of discourse (which is always an opportunity to *agree* on things in the end by syncing up our thoughts, know- ledge, experience, ...) we don't want in development discussions. Regards, Eike ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] High-quality apps in extragear - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
Given my project is explicitly mentioned, I should reply :) When KTp was moving out of playground, I was told: It can't go into the SC because Kopete is there and we have a duty to maintain that as the official client for all of 4.x I don't know if that is true or not, it may have been a communication breakdown or me misunderstanding. I think this was a private chat, not an official ruling on a mailing list. I don't want to get into a discussion of feature parity, we both have features that the other doesn't have but I would like to be part of the SC at some point. So we are an exception to the it's because the maintainers want that. rule. David ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 16:09:03 Sebastian Kügler wrote: Hi Aaron, On Thursday, January 16, 2014 13:24:51 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: That particular statement has been used for years and I’ve patiently corrected it time and again, and it is still used to justify things like “don’t force this down our throat”. That is not fair play. Just to point out the obvious, while it might be human to lose patience, it's not OK, and certainly not helpful. After literally years of this, it is not a matter of “keeping one’s patience”. I have kept my patience and tried to work through these issues over the course of some 6 years now. I think that is reasonable beyond reasonable, and I resent you asking the person who says “This has made me feel uncomfortable” to sit on it. It’s rather close to the ”blame the victim” pattern. Had you said exactly that (This has made me feel uncomfortable”), it would have been completely fine. Instead you implied ignorance and ill-intent. This makes all the difference. Let me quote to you from my own email then: As the person who came up with and used to maintain this part of KDE, It makes me feel like you think I’ve been wandering around forcing people to do things they don’t want to and that makes me feel very uncomfortable.” As you can see, I did indeed say exactly “that makes me feel very uncomfortable” Furthermore, I was not under the impression there was any ill-intent. That is something you read into what I wrote, for whatever reason. I’ve tried to make it clear that I do not see ill-intent, but a double standard in action and an institutionalized acceptance of negative personal response depending on the source and recipient. I accept that you read into what I wrote something I did not intend, but now could you return that favor and accept that this I do not actually see ill-intent here? As for implying ignorance: I did not imply it, I stated it openly. I will freely admit that using that precise word probably is born of frustration with a six year background story: after patiently correcting the same rubbish within your own community to no effect, I don’t know how else to help people understand that the meme in question is not an opinion, but a factual error. The dictionary definition of ignorance is this: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ignorance If I had said Albert was stupid (which he is not), that would have been something rather different: a statement (insult, even) about the person himself. Ignorance is an observation of state, at least when offered non- pejoratively. Let me offer an example: I am ignorant about Poppler (to take an example); by contrast, Albert knows quite a bit about Poppler. I would hope that in a conversation where Poppler comes up that I would not make sweeping statements without fact checking them. Doing so would be speaking out of ignorance. If you wish to discuss the rest of you email, we can do so face to face (virtually, e.g. on G+ hangouts) -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:42:43 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: * Is this an application that is commonly provided by bare-bones desktop envs? (Yes: +1; both because it means it duplicates features in other envs but also because it is probably *expected* to be there by users) * Is this an application that requires a large number of assumptions about the desktop env? (Yes : +1) * Can you use the desktop env without it? (Maybe: +0.5, Not really: +1) * Is this an application that has significant usage in other desktop envs today? (No: +1) So for kmix the answers might be: yes, no, no, maybe: 3.5 points KDE NetworkManager: yes, yes, no, yes: 4 points Dolphin: Yes, No, Maybe, Yes: 1.5 points For KSnapshot: no, no, yes, yes: 0 points It becomes more easy to pick which apps “belong” and which probably don’t using these questions. It’s still a matter of judgement calls, but personally I find those 4 questions helpful. Adding another one: What do the developers of said code want? Taking Krita as an example here, the soul-searching done a few years ago (I think even with external help to facilitate this process) has done wonders, and provided the focus to concentrate on one thing, and do that really well. An app that works just fine on any desktop might choose to value extremely good integration with Plasma higher than useful in XFCE, and use that as guiding principle, this would naturally answer a bunch of questions as to its direction. So thinking about the goals definitely makes sense to me, and helps assessing a good place to put the code, socially and technically/infrastructurally. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Essential Applications - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday 16 January 2014 11:56:08 Sebastian Kügler wrote: On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 23:46:29 Adriaan de Groot wrote: On Wednesday 15 January 2014 23:13:11 Albert Astals Cid wrote: Besides how would you define this KDE Essential Applications group? I mean a tarball? An XML file somewhere? Personally I find distros should be smart enough to decide which apps they want to ship by default and which not. It's still nice to have some kind of grouping defined by the KDE release; the reason for that being that it's much easier to say install kdegames than install khangman and kgoldrunner and ktiktaktoe and ksnap and ltskat and ... and if kdegames -- or kdeessentials -- refers to the same name across distro's, that's good for migrating users. You really don't want a (non-smart) distro saying Oh, we didn't think kmix was essential . If there's a list of these 38 repositories / tarballs are the essentials this time around then that at least is a strong indication that that's what upstream (i.e. us as KDE) wants. I'm not sure the current categorisation works very well here, for example installing kdegraphics gives you a whole bunch of graphics-related tools, but probably too many (and then some are missing, such as digikam), and workflows might still not be complete. (Underlying assumptions, the user wants to accomplish a task, not run an application.) A brainfart: rather than categorizing applications by their domain, maybe providing sets of apps for certain workflows or usecases, a vertical, rather than a horizontal integration, if you wish. For example: a SOHO metapackage would ship Calligra Sheets and Words, Kraft, Kontact. A primary educational metapackage would ship edu apps suitable for a certain age. A Tablet metapackage would include Plasma Active's UI, Krita Sketch, and other touch-suitable apps, and so on. These metapackages could even cause configuration changes elsewhere, so installing a hobby photographer metapackage would add an Activity for this task in Plasma Desktop. These metapackages can of course overlap (as it's really just a dependency definition), but it would it make it easier to create coherent, yet complete systems, and be a way to reflect a clearer vision for apps and sets of apps towards the actual use-cases. Just an idea... Is it just me, or does this idea sound like it's going in a similar direction to the Flows Björn and I talked about at Akademy? ;) Tasks/workflows is really what we should be thinking about, because that's the user's perspective, and thus much more likely to be helpful to users than any technology-centric perspective. So, long story short, a big +1 from me! ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo va escriure: On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 22:56:12 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: Hi, * Do we need small utilities like KCalc as stand-alone apps, or do they belong in Workspaces, perhaps as Plasmoids? Where do we draw the line between them? And if there's both a Plasmoid and an App for something, which goes in the main release? Please don't force plasmoids down my throat. That is not a real threat, and phrasing it like it is a real threat feels extremely disrespectful. As the person who came up with and used to maintain this part of KDE, It makes me feel like you think I’ve been wandering around forcing people to do things they don’t want to and that makes me feel very uncomfortable. Why would i want a calculator as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing? What’s worse than insulting another person is doing so from ignorance. Already said in private, but feel the public will benefit from it too: * Sorry for being rude * Sorry for being wrong * Sorry if being being rude and wrong made you feel insulted. It was not my intention at all. Cheers, Albert ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 12:05:17, Aaron J. Seigo va escriure: On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:46:33 Kevin Krammer wrote: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: I also thought about plasma-windowed when reading that :) However, I think it is one of those hidden gems that nobody knows about. I've had questions like can I run $applet stand-alone on the user support lists a couple of times and plasma-windowed was the answer. Its drawback currently is that it is not very easy to figure out what to pass as its commandline argument. KRunner will do this for you, actually. If you type “calc”, and the plasmoid runner is installed, you’ll get a match offering to run the plasmoid in a window. Well, it doesn’t actually *say* that, since that’s jargon, but that’s what the match does. For plasmoids suited to being run as an app they should also install a .desktop file with this command in it so that it is completely transparent to the user. All of the above occurs in Plasma Active, so we know it works well from a technical POV. Can you start it from the command line? Also in my mind something that i can start from the command line and creates it's own top-level window is not a plasmoid. But from reading your emails seems it is for you. Can you share with us your definition of plasmoid so we are all on the same terminology? Cheers, Albert ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 22:07:17, Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 12:05:17, Aaron J. Seigo va escriure: On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:46:33 Kevin Krammer wrote: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: I also thought about plasma-windowed when reading that :) However, I think it is one of those hidden gems that nobody knows about. I've had questions like can I run $applet stand-alone on the user support lists a couple of times and plasma-windowed was the answer. Its drawback currently is that it is not very easy to figure out what to pass as its commandline argument. KRunner will do this for you, actually. If you type “calc”, and the plasmoid runner is installed, you’ll get a match offering to run the plasmoid in a window. Well, it doesn’t actually *say* that, since that’s jargon, but that’s what the match does. For plasmoids suited to being run as an app they should also install a .desktop file with this command in it so that it is completely transparent to the user. All of the above occurs in Plasma Active, so we know it works well from a technical POV. Can you start it from the command line? plasma-windowed can be run from the commandline, e.g. plasma-windowed org.kde.networkmanagement A hypothetical KCalc Plasma applet could also install a .desktop file that has the appropriate Exec line. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Wednesday 15 January 2014 22:56:12 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: Hi, * Do we need small utilities like KCalc as stand-alone apps, or do they belong in Workspaces, perhaps as Plasmoids? Where do we draw the line between them? And if there's both a Plasmoid and an App for something, which goes in the main release? Please don't force plasmoids down my throat. Why would i want a calculator I did read this thread only now, and this sentence saddened me quite a lot. seriously, I can it only as in your work is not welcome here. And yes, I know perfectly it was *not* intended like that, but still, I find this sentence very, very painful to read. Please, pay attention to things like that :/ as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing? as was noted elsewhere there is the dashboard, plasma-windowed, and where and how they appear is really just an implementation detail. now i didn't push plasma-windowed that much on plasma-desktop (in plasma active the rss reader and the app to configure alarms are just plasmoids) since on plasma1 was not possible to make them looking well integrated in the desktop, theme and behavior wise. Cheers, Marco Martin ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 22:13:58, Kevin Krammer va escriure: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 22:07:17, Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 12:05:17, Aaron J. Seigo va escriure: On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:46:33 Kevin Krammer wrote: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: I also thought about plasma-windowed when reading that :) However, I think it is one of those hidden gems that nobody knows about. I've had questions like can I run $applet stand-alone on the user support lists a couple of times and plasma-windowed was the answer. Its drawback currently is that it is not very easy to figure out what to pass as its commandline argument. KRunner will do this for you, actually. If you type “calc”, and the plasmoid runner is installed, you’ll get a match offering to run the plasmoid in a window. Well, it doesn’t actually *say* that, since that’s jargon, but that’s what the match does. For plasmoids suited to being run as an app they should also install a .desktop file with this command in it so that it is completely transparent to the user. All of the above occurs in Plasma Active, so we know it works well from a technical POV. Can you start it from the command line? plasma-windowed can be run from the commandline, e.g. plasma-windowed org.kde.networkmanagement That's a bit too long vs kcalc, but i guess you could always install a shell script file in /usr/bin/kcalc that just runs plasma-windowed org.kde.calculator inside. So basically there's no difference between a plasmoid and a non-plasmoid? If that's the case, I don't understand why John started the discussion if we should favor plasmoids over non-plasmoids or viceversa since it seems to me plasmoid or not is an implementation detail. John? Cheers, Albert A hypothetical KCalc Plasma applet could also install a .desktop file that has the appropriate Exec line. Cheers, Kevin ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Essential Applications - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday 16 January 2014 21:50:47 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: Is it just me, or does this idea sound like it's going in a similar direction to the Flows Björn and I talked about at Akademy? ;) Tasks/workflows is really what we should be thinking about, because that's the user's perspective, and thus much more likely to be helpful to users than any technology-centric perspective. So, long story short, a big +1 from me! one thing tough... from this thread i'm gathering there seems to be the need as well of clearer distinction between applications and workspace, making also the applications to e able to be small, standalone, few dependencies entities. while an integrated workflow concept ties together way furtner applications and workspace, and applications between each other (maybe at the point you don't have a very defined concept of application anymore) they are both desiderable, but they seems quite in contrast each other. I'm sure I'm hitting a false dichotomy there, but not seeing a clear solution. does anybody does? -- Marco Martin ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:07 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 12:05:17, Aaron J. Seigo va escriure: On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:46:33 Kevin Krammer wrote: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: I also thought about plasma-windowed when reading that :) However, I think it is one of those hidden gems that nobody knows about. I've had questions like can I run $applet stand-alone on the user support lists a couple of times and plasma-windowed was the answer. Its drawback currently is that it is not very easy to figure out what to pass as its commandline argument. KRunner will do this for you, actually. If you type “calc”, and the plasmoid runner is installed, you’ll get a match offering to run the plasmoid in a window. Well, it doesn’t actually *say* that, since that’s jargon, but that’s what the match does. For plasmoids suited to being run as an app they should also install a .desktop file with this command in it so that it is completely transparent to the user. All of the above occurs in Plasma Active, so we know it works well from a technical POV. Can you start it from the command line? like plasma-windowed calculator (have still to port it to a plasma2 version) Also in my mind something that i can start from the command line and creates it's own top-level window is not a plasmoid. But from reading your emails seems it is for you. Can you share with us your definition of plasmoid so we are all on the same terminology? yep, that probably was the misunderstanding indeed ;) basically, to me to be a plasmoid is the technical implementation in brief, something that implements a plasma applet, that therefore can be loaded as a desktop widget (butcan be loaded also with other appearances as a top level window) in plasma1/c++ case, a plugin that reimplements Applet (for historical record :p), in the qml/plasma2 case, is a directory containing qml files (and other stuff like images ) in a particular location with a particular hyerarchy (that can be understood by the Package class) and loaded by a plasma shell. about doing applications with it or not, i guess is developer's choice, depending how much integration they want, how many dependencies want to accept, if it's a small gadget like one or a very big one and so on. so in the end i see nothing bad to hae some apps implemented as plasmoids, if a developers wants to ship it like that, they don't exclude each other and probably the overlap of use cases exists but is only partial. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
