Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

2016-02-04 Thread Jos Poortvliet 
On woensdag 3 februari 2016 22:28:34 CET Boudewijn Rempt wrote:
> I don't even remember what I thought the last couple of times, but I
> think it was something like this:
> 
> "if these are projects that we can likely bring under our umbrella, yes,
> we should, if that is not going to happen, then we shouldn't"
> 
> I cannot imagine I ever thought something different, but it's possible,
> and I remember someone telling me I was inconsistent, last year.

I think this rule makes sense. I think it won't be hard to get an agreement on 
our base principles from projects like Subsurface and Tupi (I mean the social 
side of things, not the tech part) and it would be a first step towards 
bringing them into the fold. Seems a good move to me.

In general, why don't we adopt a "yes unless" stance, rather than the 
opposite? If there's a good (not hypothetical) reason not to collaborate, fine 
- but otherwise, let's work with others.

> On Wed, 3 Feb 2016, Martin Klapetek wrote:
> > Hey,
> > so in the couple previous years we have collectively and
> > repeatedly rejected the idea of other projects, that are not
> > KDE projects by the Manifesto, to participate in KDE GSoC.
> > Namely we rejected Tupi and SubSurface solely because
> > "not a KDE project", GCompris became a KDE project and
> > then we let it participate.
> > 
> > Last year we got a non-KDE project in our GSoC despite the
> > previous years decisions, nobody really noticed and then there
> > was a huge discussion if that's ok or not, but by that time it was
> > a bit late.
> > 
> > So I'd like to have this cleared - does the community agree to
> > have non-KDE projects, those that do not follow the Manifesto,
> > participate in our GSoC this year and in the following years?
> > 
> > Imho this goes against the Manifesto as the projects gets to
> > "enjoy the benefits" without the complying with "commitments"
> > of the Manifesto. It's also less transparent overall (not able to
> > monitor progress as it's not on KDE infrastructure), can lead
> > to cheating and possibly kicking KDE out of GSoC in the worst
> > possible outcome.
> > 
> > On the other hand, every accepted project gets the mentoring
> > organization some extra money, which is always handy.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > --
> > Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer


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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

2016-02-04 Thread Bhushan Shah 
On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Ivan Čukić  wrote:
> I am *very* against giving our slots to non-kde projects. We already
> had problems with this a few years ago, I would rather avoid the
> unpleasantries that happened back then.

Just FTR, we don't give away our own slots, but we ask for slots after
we decide how many projects we are going to select.

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IRC Nick : bshah on Freenode
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

2016-02-04 Thread Jos Poortvliet 
On donderdag 4 februari 2016 07:45:54 CET Martin Graesslin wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 10:05:20 PM CET Alexander Neundorf 
wrote:
> > We are happy to get comments or any other feedback on this draft, and 
we
> > are looking forward to a lively and constructive discussion about the
> > future of KDE.
> 
> I'm sorry to say, but I don't see any vision in your document. What is the
> essence I should grasp from reading that document? The one thing which 
the
> community can combine and rally behind it? What I see instead are various
> goals/missions which I think would be covered by the vision draft shared by
> Lydia.
> 
> So can I have a TLDR of your vision statement?

==
KDE is an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software 
enthusiasts that strives to provide graphical user interfaces and applications 
for end-users for all types of computers across the device spectrum: desktops 
PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc.

We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of our 
users. Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto.
===

That seems a decent TLDR. In bullet points:
* end user focus
* open government
* FOSS
* GUI applications for device spectrum
* privacy

This would put focus on developing Plasma, the various Applications and the 
Frameworks. Things like ownCloud, WikiFM, OCS or Kolab are relevant as far 
as desktop/application integration is concerned, but not core part of the KDE 
mission.

Note that I'm not arguing for or against this, just trying to answer your 
question.

> Cheers
> Martin


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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

2016-02-04 Thread Martin Graesslin 
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 11:38:56 AM CET Ivan Čukić wrote:
> > I'm not sure whether it's against the manifesto. Is that really a
> > "benefit"
> > that we do some admin work for them? One could also see it as an
> 
> I would not be against us being admins of an external project that has
> its own slots.
> 
> I am *very* against giving our slots to non-kde projects. We already
> had problems with this a few years ago, I would rather avoid the
> unpleasantries that happened back then.

on the other hand last year we were not really able to fill the slots and 
lacked mentors.

Cheers
martin

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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

2016-02-04 Thread Ivan Čukić 
> Just FTR, we don't give away our own slots, but we ask for slots after
> we decide how many projects we are going to select.

And with that I'm completely fine.

Cheerio,
Ivan

--
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Re: [kde-community] FOSDEM wrapup

2016-02-04 Thread Jos Poortvliet 
On woensdag 3 februari 2016 12:58:58 CET Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> We had a good presence at FOSDEM this year.  Here's some notes while I
> remember.
> 
> Stall:
> One 1 short table this year.  We had a nice setup with ODROID board + 
HDMI
> monitor (alas it wasn't a monitor which could tilt) to demo low cost
> computers can run Plasma.  We had my laptop for KDE neon and a Nexus 5 
in a
> stand for Plasma Phone.  a4 display stands had colour sheets describing the
> three projects.  Me and David brought the kit on the train (which is faffy
> but much easier than taking kit on a plane) with Rohan bringing his 
ODROID.
> 
> I bought two large display banners for KDE and KDE neon which I've taken
> back to my house, I need to reply to e.V. treasurer about getting those
> paid for.  I also bought stickers for KDE (name badges and to give away)
> and KDE neon and have taken the spares back home.  I also bought the 
money
> box, a4 display stands, pens, tape and brought power extensions.
> 
> We had t-shirts which Jose brought along from those left over from 
Akademy
> as well as a money box and leaflets.
> 
> Saturday sales:
> Knitted Amigurimi Konqi Medium: 1
> KDE India T-shirts (these were very popular and we should buy more for 
next
> year.  They seem to be in Indian sizes where an XL is about a medium to us
> fat Europeans.)
> XL red: 1
> XL blue: 3
> 2XL organge: 1
> 3XL orange: 1
> Konqi t-shirts (white):
> 2XL: 1
> L 1
> M: 1
> KDE Logo t-shirts (white):
> XL: 1
> L: 1
> 
> We took over 300euro on the Saturday which Jose took home.
> Sunday we ended up with over 320euro which Jose also took along with the
> sales figures.
> 
> Jose can you post the sales figures here and confirm the amount you're
> transferring to e.v.?
> 
> Saturday party:
> I booked the first floor of La Paon again in Grand Place.  No sponsors this
> year so I took 20euro off everyone who attended.  My guess of 200euro 
worth
> of finger food seemed to work very well.  We had 22 people pay for food,
> less than last year I think which is to be expected since it was charged
> for.  After food was served I used the extra money to buy an additional
> couple of beers for everyone.
> 
> We had three talks in the Desktop room (more than any other project I
> think) which were well received, KDE neon, WikiToLearn and CMakeDaemon.
> 
> A telegram group was useful to keep in contact with people throughout the
> weekend.
> 
> Much beer was consumed which I think we can call a success.
> 
> Jonathan

Was great to meet you all and great work on the booth!

Fun with the t-shirt sizes, at SCALE I was told European XXL is considered 
"sysadmin medium" there ;-)

The name badges were absolutely awesome.

Cheers,
Jos

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion

2016-02-04 Thread Martin Graesslin 
On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 10:10:27 AM CET Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> The first draft reads as follows:
> "KDE, through the creation of Free software, enables users to control
> their digital life. KDE software enables privacy, makes simple things
> easy and complex scenarios possible while crossing device boundaries."

In the world of IT we see again and again the introduction of disruptive 
technologies which change the field of computing. In the past KDE as a 
community mastered some of them great, some of them badly. When KDE started 
the world was in the middle of the disruption known as the Internet. KDE 
handled it great. Today basically every person connecting to the Internet is 
using a KDE technology for that.

The next disruption "mobile" wasn't handled well, though. We were years too 
late and still haven't really got there. From our hundreds of applications 
only 3 are available on the most important distribution channel for mobile 
application. We clearly missed this disruption.

Currently we are again in an disruptive stage. We have the cloud and social 
networks. Again we are moving slowly and are not adapting to the disruptive 
change. But we had good cards for cloud with e.g. ownCloud. Overall I don't 
see any strategy on how to move our applications into the cloud and how to 
integrate the cloud better. We were great in the Internet age, but are not 
catching up. Similar the social net is not integrated at all into our 
products. Thus I would conclude that we are missing this disruption just like 
the last one.

Personally I think that we missed them because we didn't have a clear vision 
on where to go and were too focused on the good old things.

Thus now my question: How will this vision provide us guidance for the next 
disruption? How will we be able to use this vision to be a leader in the next 
disruption? Please explain why you think that the vision will help in the next 
disruption. If you don't think that the vision is for that please also explain 
why you think that. E.g. if you think we shouldn't care about the next 
disruption, please explain the reasoning for it.

Thank you!
Martin

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Re: [kde-community] Differences between proposed vision drafts (or "inclusive" vs "focused")

2016-02-04 Thread Boudhayan Gupta 
Hi,

At this point, I need to butt in.

On 4 February 2016 at 20:23, Alexander Dymo  wrote:
> Let's consider another example. This time it will be the imaginary
> free Github replacement. This time the tech is too far away from
> user-end apps and shells. Let's say it wants to join KDE. Under the
> "inclusive" proposal such a project will be welcomed. Under "focused"
> - no.

There does exist a similar project, not yet widely publicised, yet is
being developed as a KDE Project.

It's called Propagator, and it manages a fleet of Git mirrors. We
developed it ourselves because we needed to make our Anongit
infrastructure more reliable, log sync failures, retry syncs on fail
after with ever increasing backoffs, and also sync to GitHub (we do
have a mirror there).

It's here: https://phabricator.kde.org/diffusion/PROPAGATOR/. At this
point only a few people know of this (mostly in the Sysadmin team) and
I was going to give it a proper unveiling at conf.kde.in next month,
but now the cat is out of the bag.

The point is, Propagator is server software. It uses no KDE libs, is
written in Python, and was developed to serve the sysadmin team's
specific needs. Along the way, we realised that this could be made
general-purpose enough to the extent we can offer it as a standalone
product, being managed as part of the KDE Project.

Under the "focused" proposal, such a software would have no place in
the KDE Project. In fact, a software, developed within KDE to address
KDE's (not KDE users but the KDE Project itself) needs cannot be a
part of the KDE Project. Do we want this situation to arise?

Propagator won't be the last piece of custom server software KDE will
need. Being involved with the sysadmins to some degree, I've
identified a few more areas where we'll need custom code that's
extensive enough to be published as products in their own right. If
we're only going to be "focused" on end-user software, we shoot
ourselves in our foot by denying a home to software we've developed to
solve our own problems, where the solutions are generic enough to be
used by others.

-- Boudhayan Gupta
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Re: [kde-community] Differences between proposed vision drafts (or "inclusive" vs "focused")

2016-02-04 Thread Alexander Dymo 
Let's take one of your examples: some imaginary sensory tech that
follows your mind. It's going to be a competitive advantage to both
Plasma and applications, for sure. Can it be a KDE project? Yes,
because it clearly brings KDE closer to its goal. And actually, both
visions/missions would support inclusion of such a tech into KDE.

Let's consider another example. This time it will be the imaginary
free Github replacement. This time the tech is too far away from
user-end apps and shells. Let's say it wants to join KDE. Under the
"inclusive" proposal such a project will be welcomed. Under "focused"
- no.

PS: I did not say that _all_ new tech should be developed outside of
KDE. What I wanted to say that for the free software project to
succeed, it does not have to be included into any larger
project/community.


On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 8:15 AM, Martin Graesslin  wrote:
> On Thursday, February 4, 2016 7:52:34 AM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
>> Focused does not mean exclusive. Every technology (and not only
>> technology) that gets us to the point where all users use KDE shells
>> and apps (because of their superiority) is welcome. IMHO, of course.
>
> sorry, but I cannot follow you. What you wrote here is inclusive again. So
> what you want now: focus on a technology or being inclusive to everything?
>
>>
>> Another point is that not everything needs to be built in house. When
>> I started free software development, it was harder for independent
>> small projects to survive. It was much better for them to join the big
>> groups, like GNU, GNOME, KDE, etc. Now this is not the case. So I'd
>> expect some of the technologies that KDE can use to be actually
>> developed elsewhere.
>
> And here you basically say any development on new technologies should happen
> outside of KDE. Which is pretty excluding and contradicting to what you write
> above.
>
> To me this is really confusing as I don't see how that can aid us in finding a
> direction.
>
> Further clarifications are appreciated. Right now I'm more confused than
> before.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:53 AM, Martin Graesslin 
> wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 11:44:35 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
>> >> I reread both drafts and realized that people who have not
>> >> participated in the development of these proposals might miss the
>> >> important difference between them.
>> >>
>> >> The Lydia & Co see KDE providing users free software to manage any
>> >> aspect of their digital life: GUI environments, applications (GUI and
>> >> not), knowledge management systems, etc.
>> >>
>> >> The AlexN. & Co see KDE providing users free GUI environments and
>> >> applications that work on any computing device: desktop, laptop,
>> >> tablet, smartphone, or any other device present and future.
>> >
>> > may I ask where the focused group sees the future in a world beyond GUI,
>> > I'm thinking of areas like:
>> > * speech recognition (e.g. KDE Lera)
>> > * IoT
>> > * Sensors (think of the old joke of "Focus Follows Mind", but we're almost
>> > there)
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > Martin
>> > ___
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>>
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Re: [kde-community] FOSDEM wrapup

2016-02-04 Thread Agustin Benito (toscalix) 
Hi,

thanks to all of you who organized the booth. Special thanks to
Jonathan for organizing the dinner on Saturday. I really liked.

Best Regards

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 10:45 PM, Clemens Toennies
 wrote:
> Am 03.02.2016 um 22:13 schrieb Rohan Garg:
>>
>> Hey
>>>
>>> The Frameworks leaflets were really useful to hand out as a means of
>>> explaining
>>> "these are libraries that everyone can use in their Qt applications".
>>>
>> While the leaflets are awesome, one of the most obvious questions I
>> got asked, which was not covered in the leaflet, was, "How do I
>> get/install these frameworks"
>>
>> IMHO ideally the next set of leaflets about frameworks should include
>> a very obvious way of installing Frameworks.
>>
>>>   - major thanks to Rohan and Dave, who seemed to be there all the time
>>> and
>>> always smiling.
>>>
>> Thanks :3
>> And a big thank you to you too for helping out :)
>
>
> Thumbs up to all of you!
>
> Clemens.
>
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Re: [kde-community] FOSDEM wrapup

2016-02-04 Thread José Millán Soto 
El Wednesday 03 February 2016 12:58:58, Jonathan Riddell escribió:
> Saturday sales:
> Knitted Amigurimi Konqi Medium: 1
> KDE India T-shirts (these were very popular and we should buy more for next
> year.  They seem to be in Indian sizes where an XL is about a medium to us
> fat Europeans.) XL red: 1

I don't think that there were Indian sizes but they were fitted-cut sizes (I 
think all the straight-cut sizes have been sold in previous events).

> XL blue: 3
> 2XL organge: 1
> 3XL orange: 1
> Konqi t-shirts (white):
> 2XL: 1
> L 1
> M: 1
> KDE Logo t-shirts (white):
> XL: 1
> L: 1
> 
> We took over 300euro on the Saturday which Jose took home.
> Sunday we ended up with over 320euro which Jose also took along with the
> sales figures.
> 
> Jose can you post the sales figures here and confirm the amount you're
> transferring to e.v.?

Sunday sales:
Konqi t-shirts:
 - 2XL: 3
K-Logo T-Shirts:
 - M: 1
 - L: 3
 - XL: 2
Knitted Konquis: 5
KDE India: 1 orange XL

There might be some sales (prosibily the last minute sales) which had not been 
written as the total ammount in the cash box was higher, so over the next few 
days I'll count how many are there remaining and send an email with the 
quantities.

The quantity on Sunday (including the contribution made by Adriaan) was 350€, 
so I'll transfer 650€.

A few comments about the t-shirt sales:
 - As Jonathan said, KDE-India t-shirts are very popular and it might be a 
good idea to make more. It was also suggested to make them in more colors.
 - Konqi t-shirts were more popular than the K-Logo ones, more people would 
have bought them should we had more L and XL units.
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Re: [kde-community] Differences between proposed vision drafts (or "inclusive" vs "focused")

2016-02-04 Thread Martin Graesslin 
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 7:52:34 AM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
> Focused does not mean exclusive. Every technology (and not only
> technology) that gets us to the point where all users use KDE shells
> and apps (because of their superiority) is welcome. IMHO, of course.

sorry, but I cannot follow you. What you wrote here is inclusive again. So 
what you want now: focus on a technology or being inclusive to everything?

> 
> Another point is that not everything needs to be built in house. When
> I started free software development, it was harder for independent
> small projects to survive. It was much better for them to join the big
> groups, like GNU, GNOME, KDE, etc. Now this is not the case. So I'd
> expect some of the technologies that KDE can use to be actually
> developed elsewhere.

And here you basically say any development on new technologies should happen 
outside of KDE. Which is pretty excluding and contradicting to what you write 
above.

To me this is really confusing as I don't see how that can aid us in finding a 
direction.

Further clarifications are appreciated. Right now I'm more confused than 
before.

Cheers
Martin

> 
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:53 AM, Martin Graesslin  
wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 11:44:35 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
> >> I reread both drafts and realized that people who have not
> >> participated in the development of these proposals might miss the
> >> important difference between them.
> >> 
> >> The Lydia & Co see KDE providing users free software to manage any
> >> aspect of their digital life: GUI environments, applications (GUI and
> >> not), knowledge management systems, etc.
> >> 
> >> The AlexN. & Co see KDE providing users free GUI environments and
> >> applications that work on any computing device: desktop, laptop,
> >> tablet, smartphone, or any other device present and future.
> > 
> > may I ask where the focused group sees the future in a world beyond GUI,
> > I'm thinking of areas like:
> > * speech recognition (e.g. KDE Lera)
> > * IoT
> > * Sensors (think of the old joke of "Focus Follows Mind", but we're almost
> > there)
> > 
> > Cheers
> > Martin
> > ___
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> 
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Re: [kde-community] Differences between proposed vision drafts (or "inclusive" vs "focused")

2016-02-04 Thread Alexander Dymo 
Focused does not mean exclusive. Every technology (and not only
technology) that gets us to the point where all users use KDE shells
and apps (because of their superiority) is welcome. IMHO, of course.

Another point is that not everything needs to be built in house. When
I started free software development, it was harder for independent
small projects to survive. It was much better for them to join the big
groups, like GNU, GNOME, KDE, etc. Now this is not the case. So I'd
expect some of the technologies that KDE can use to be actually
developed elsewhere.


On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:53 AM, Martin Graesslin  wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 11:44:35 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
>> I reread both drafts and realized that people who have not
>> participated in the development of these proposals might miss the
>> important difference between them.
>>
>> The Lydia & Co see KDE providing users free software to manage any
>> aspect of their digital life: GUI environments, applications (GUI and
>> not), knowledge management systems, etc.
>>
>> The AlexN. & Co see KDE providing users free GUI environments and
>> applications that work on any computing device: desktop, laptop,
>> tablet, smartphone, or any other device present and future.
>>
>
> may I ask where the focused group sees the future in a world beyond GUI, I'm
> thinking of areas like:
> * speech recognition (e.g. KDE Lera)
> * IoT
> * Sensors (think of the old joke of "Focus Follows Mind", but we're almost
> there)
>
> Cheers
> Martin
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Re: [kde-community] Differences between proposed vision drafts (or "inclusive" vs "focused")

2016-02-04 Thread Martin Graesslin 
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 8:53:57 AM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
> Let's take one of your examples: some imaginary sensory tech that
> follows your mind. It's going to be a competitive advantage to both
> Plasma and applications, for sure. Can it be a KDE project? Yes,
> because it clearly brings KDE closer to its goal. And actually, both
> visions/missions would support inclusion of such a tech into KDE.

Now that you make it more clear that the focus of a technology would be 
whether it helps for example Plasma I need to chime in.

As a maintainer of Plasma and as the maintainer of the largest single piece of 
software inside Plasma I want to say that I'm against a focus on Plasma. I do 
not want to see KDE decide for projects whether they give a "competitive 
advantage" to Plasma. I thought we had left this years behind us. Although my 
work is focused on Linux I'm happy for the Windows and OSX and Android efforts 
and want KDE to be strong in these areas. I'm afraid that any focus on Plasma 
will harm KDE and thus also Plasma.

Furthermore I must observe that the KDE community as large does not care about 
Plasma and a focus on Plasma. Please have a look on how many devs contribute 
to e.g. KWin and the Wayland effort. It's what will take the desktop to the 
next level, but hardly anybody works on it. So from my perspective: a focus on 
the desktop is in all way wrong for KDE. That's not KDE.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: [kde-community] Differences between proposed vision drafts (or "inclusive" vs "focused")

2016-02-04 Thread Alexander Dymo 
And here is where I, perhaps surprisingly to you, agree with you.
Like, 100% agree.

I wrote "Plasma and applications", but should have written
"applications and Plasma". It's the KDE apps that shine these days.
Krita, Digikam, Kdenlive, K3B, Kate, Okular, and many and many others.

In my opinion KDE as a whole will also shine if it brings our amazing
software to as many platforms as we can. And many people in the
community already do this work.

The "focused" vision is about lifting the importance of this movement
towards other platforms and devices, and actually focusing on it. It
is, IMHO of course, not about going back to "let's just work on Linux
desktop". I wouldn't call that a "vision", that would be
"conservation".


On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Martin Graesslin  wrote:
> On Thursday, February 4, 2016 8:53:57 AM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
>> Let's take one of your examples: some imaginary sensory tech that
>> follows your mind. It's going to be a competitive advantage to both
>> Plasma and applications, for sure. Can it be a KDE project? Yes,
>> because it clearly brings KDE closer to its goal. And actually, both
>> visions/missions would support inclusion of such a tech into KDE.
>
> Now that you make it more clear that the focus of a technology would be
> whether it helps for example Plasma I need to chime in.
>
> As a maintainer of Plasma and as the maintainer of the largest single piece of
> software inside Plasma I want to say that I'm against a focus on Plasma. I do
> not want to see KDE decide for projects whether they give a "competitive
> advantage" to Plasma. I thought we had left this years behind us. Although my
> work is focused on Linux I'm happy for the Windows and OSX and Android efforts
> and want KDE to be strong in these areas. I'm afraid that any focus on Plasma
> will harm KDE and thus also Plasma.
>
> Furthermore I must observe that the KDE community as large does not care about
> Plasma and a focus on Plasma. Please have a look on how many devs contribute
> to e.g. KWin and the Wayland effort. It's what will take the desktop to the
> next level, but hardly anybody works on it. So from my perspective: a focus on
> the desktop is in all way wrong for KDE. That's not KDE.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
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Re: [kde-community] Differences between proposed vision drafts (or "inclusive" vs "focused")

2016-02-04 Thread Jaroslaw Staniek 
On 4 February 2016 at 20:49, Alexander Neundorf  wrote:
> On Thursday, February 04, 2016 20:38:52 Boudhayan Gupta wrote:
> ...
>> Under the "focused" proposal, such a software would have no place in
>> the KDE Project. In fact, a software, developed within KDE to address
>> KDE's (not KDE users but the KDE Project itself) needs cannot be a
>> part of the KDE Project. Do we want this situation to arise?
>
> just answering for myself, but it seems to be the same as Alex D. is saying:
> the four points listed in the draft are where we see the focus of KDE.
> It would be stupid to exclude projects which support those.
> KDE never did that, why should we start with that (arts, unsermake, icecream,
> eigen, etc...)
> Still we don't see linear algebra libraries or build tools as the main goal
> KDE is trying to achieve (...says the guy who maintained the KDE buildsystem
> for more than 7 years).

Build helpers in a form of cmake scripts are part of the KF5 product,
if I understand correctly. That's good.

Not sure it was already raised: even while having focus on traditional apps:
- server software can act as enabler for some KDE apps. Any multi-user
app is in this group (not that KDE rules this 'market', sure there can
be improvements, who codes decides);
- mobile/embedded software can be enabler for some KDE apps, e.g.
think of 1. remote-controlling presentation software with a
mobile/embedded app 2. remote-data-entry mobile app for an inventory
management app/

(and KF5 can further grow by the way; it's exciting to see how KDE is
rather good at making new frameworks this way!)


>
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-- 
regards, Jaroslaw Staniek

KDE:
: A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators
: and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org
Calligra Suite:
: A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org
Kexi:
: A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi
Qt Certified Specialist:
: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
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Re: [kde-community] RFC: Distribution outreach program

2016-02-04 Thread Andre Heinecke 
Hi,

On Wednesday 03 February 2016 14:57:02 Martin Graesslin wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 1:46:16 PM CET Luca Beltrame wrote:
> > Il Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:40:58 +0100, Martin Graesslin ha scritto:
> > > to use a specific technology. It's totally fine if we go ahead and say
> > > our technology stack includes systemd, networkmanager and apparmor. If
> > > your distro cannot do that it's not providing the best expected
> > > experience. In reality we don't have the manpower to test multiple
> > 
> > I'm answering you but this is a point more general, which I overlooked
> > before: don't forget that distributions ship other software!
> > 
> > And said software has to work and coexist with KDE software. So as a
> > distribution, often we have to take compromises to ensure everything works
> > as intended.
> 
> Yes I know, that's the obvious reply you get from distros. And I call
> BULLSHIT to that. If a distribution ships with a broken bluetooth setup,
> because another desktop requires an outdated version there is something
> broken in this so deeply that I cannot find words about it.

I think part of the Problem is that those reports end up with you and are not 
triaged on the distribution level. I can totally see your point there but I 
disagree with your general mistrust of Distributors and their choices.

If a Distributor makes a bad choice, of course he should end up with the 
annoyed users and not you!

But if your solution for that is not to give distributors any choices I 
disagree with you. They also want to provide the best user experience for 
their Use Cases.

I've just wrote a mail to release-team [1] suggesting a way to mitigate at 
least some of the problems we face with distributions. In particular 
unqualified bugreports that are due to packaging problems.

In general I think a bug should go through a distribution maintainer before it 
reaches a developer. While I know that this is not realistic to work in 100% 
of the cases we might want to encourage this.

Regards,
Andre

1: https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/release-team/2016-February/009278.html
-- 
Andre Heinecke |  ++49-541-335083-262  | http://www.intevation.de/
Intevation GmbH, Neuer Graben 17, 49074 Osnabrück | AG Osnabrück, HR B 18998
Geschäftsführer: Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner

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