Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers
Hi Anna You make a valid point. This is why I like Arachne, we can pool our ideas and develop them. Happy lacemaking Alex - Original Message - From: Anna Binnie l...@binnie.id.au To: Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net Cc: lace@arachne.com Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:10 AM Subject: Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers The point is well made. Pins have been around since the bronze age so the question begs to be asked why use thorns, fish bones etc when you have access to pins. Now since lace making as we know it came into being around the 15th century (please correct me if I'm a bit early here), but pins of every variety were available at this time. I should point out that at this time they were relatively expensive since reference to pins is made in wills and dowries (only expensive items are so enumerated). BUT if you consider that some forms of early lace do not require many pins the problem is solved. By the time that the point laces came along, some experienced lace makers were NOT using pins on the ground BUT on the 'pattern part only, so again a multitude of pins was not required. By the time lace makers were using hundreds or even thousands of pins the price of pins had dropped significantly. Anna On 21/05/11 7:30 AM, Alex Stillwell wrote: Dear Arachnids These ideas about using thorns and fish bones have been around for a long time. Has anyone actually tried using thorns or fishbones to make lace? I mean the very fine lace made at the time the thorns were supposed to have been used. Did they work or not? Regarding the type of thorn, they would have to be from plants found in the hedgerowa at the time, not exotic ones like cacti. I'm not sure if pyrocantha would have been found. Does anyone know? There are many old wives tales around, but you have to try them to prove their validity and not blindly perpetuate them. I have debunked several. Looking forward to hearing from you. Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003 - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers
Hi Robin An interesting observation, thank you for letting us know. Does anyone have a photo of these lacemakers? and did the Biologist know what bobbin lace is or did she see some other form of lace being made using thorns as pins? Also, as you say, the lace was coarse, not made with the very fine linen used in 17th century. It's my science background that always asks for proof. Happy lacemaking - Original Message - From: robinl...@socal.rr.com To: Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net; lace@arachne.com Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 5:35 AM Subject: Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net wrote: These ideas about using thorns and fish bones have been around for a long time. Has anyone actually tried using thorns or fishbones to make lace? I mean the very fine lace made at the time the thorns were supposed to have been used. Did they work or not?- Still not directly to your question, Alex, but I remember talking to a Brazilian biologist. She was not a lacemaker, but she told me about seeing women in a certain part of Brazil that has a bobbin lace tradition. We found pictures of them using thorn pins. It was coarse lace (not the stuff made with 240 cotton in early Europe), about like the modern Chinese designs in stores these days. Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA robinl...@socal.rr.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] pins and thorns
Hi Bev This article is producing some interestin observations. As I suggested, using thorns may only be folk lore and your observation would support that theory. The cactus thorns came up in another reply when I asked if anyone had used thorns for making lace. but I also doubt if they would have been readily available in Europe in the 17th century. Happy lacemaking Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] Article on Brazilian bobbin lace with cactus pins
Online article from National Geographic Traveler http://traveler.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/genuine-article/morelli-text/1 excerpted: Lace can be produced either with a needle and thread (needle lace) or by interweaving threads wound on bobbins. Bobbin lace is the predominant type of lace made on Brazil's northeastern coast. The technique begins with a pillow, almost always homemade, and stuffed with cotton, grass, or even banana leaves. The pillow forms the workspace for the rendeira, or lacemaker, who props it in her lap or places it on a special wooden stand made for that purpose. She then covers the pillow with a lace template on paper or cardboard. A collection of pins—commercial sewing notions or, in a pinch, cactus thorns—holds the design in place on the pillow. The accompanying photo is of a coarse lace and the pins appear to be glass-headed sewing-type. Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA robinl...@socal.rr.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers
Pins have been around for a very long time but they have never been a cheap item to purchase. A phrase that you may have come across is 'pin money' used these days to describe a job that pays badly but in the Regency / Victorian period 'pin money' was what was often left to someone to buy household essentials such as pins. Pins during the English Civil War period and the Restoration (mid to late 1600s) were often lengths of brass with a burr on the top to create the head as even this extra bit cost more money. I'm sure there are some references to pins and their costs in Romanze of the Lace Pillow by Thomas Wright. Pins as we know it are a complex thing to manufacture and this is why with the commercial need for them dropping we have seen the gradual loss of certain types of pin manufacture and pin manufacturers. When I started making lace I was able to buy 3 bodkin pins which I used to buy in packets of 10 from Hornsbys for about 2 or 3 pounds. I would take any large beads that I had and glue them just below the head to make divider pins. About 10 years ago these pins became really rare and almost unobtainable after the man manufacturer in the UK stopped making them because the market for them had become very, very small and it was not commercial viable to make them. When I've ask bobbin makers what they are now using for the pin part of their dividers that they turn, most are using thick needles. One even told me that they used to cut off the top of the pins in order to put them into the handles they made so that needles were a better idea. From a practial point of view, do you guys stop using bent pins? If I was looking to replace my brass pins with something else then I would need something that was continuously available and was straight. Fish bones are not that straight and they are either very flexible (so bendy) when fresh or easily shatter when dried out. Thorns are normally tappered towards the point which means that they can be rather thick at one end - for me, this would cause problems if I was working on very close work then the pins would start to crowd each other. I think that I would have problems fitting them all in. L Kind Regards Liz Baker thelace...@btinternet.com My chronicle of my bobbins can be found at my website: http://thelacebee.weebly.com/ --- On Sat, 21/5/11, Anna Binnie l...@binnie.id.au wrote: From: Anna Binnie l...@binnie.id.au Subject: Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers To: Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net Cc: lace@arachne.com Date: Saturday, 21 May, 2011, 1:10 The point is well made. Pins have been around since the bronze age so the question begs to be asked why use thorns, fish bones etc when you have access to pins. Now since lace making as we know it came into being around the 15th century (please correct me if I'm a bit early here), but pins of every variety were available at this time. I should point out that at this time they were relatively expensive since reference to pins is made in wills and dowries (only expensive items are so enumerated). BUT if you consider that some forms of early lace do not require many pins the problem is solved. By the time that the point laces came along, some experienced lace makers were NOT using pins on the ground BUT on the 'pattern part only, so again a multitude of pins was not required. By the time lace makers were using hundreds or even thousands of pins the price of pins had dropped significantly. Anna - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] Re: Article on Brazilian bobbin lace with cactus pins
Hi Robin Thank you Robin, most interesting, the lacemaker is obviously enjoying herself. It mentions cactus spines but does not show them. However, I think the cactus spines could work as they are long and fine, but would they be dangerous to use? It would be better if someone has actually tried using them or at least seen them in use. It still does not answer the question - were there any thorns suitable for making the very fine lace in Europe in 17th century? Still waiting to hear from someone who has tried working with thorns. Happy lacemking Alex - Original Message - From: robinl...@socal.rr.com To: Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net; Arachne lace@arachne.com Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 7:36 AM Subject: Article on Brazilian bobbin lace with cactus pins Online article from National Geographic Traveler http://traveler.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/genuine-article/morelli-text/1 excerpted: Lace can be produced either with a needle and thread (needle lace) or by interweaving threads wound on bobbins. Bobbin lace is the predominant type of lace made on - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] Thorns for pins
Last week I saw a small bolster pillow from Brazil with strong thorns used as pins. I was in a workshop in Italy and one of the participants brought this little gem in to show us. Nobody in the class could identify the thorns. They were about 4 cm long, strong, smooth and very pointy, making them easy to insert in the pillow. -- Karen Washington, DC - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] Lace and Other Fiber Arts Show
Hello Lacemakers, If anyone will heading to New Mexico over the next week, consider attending the Albuquerque Fiber Arts Fiesta (May 26, 27, 28). Our lace exhibit will feature juried and judged lace, demos, and a selection of vintage and antique pieces owned by our members. The Lacemaker of Ohio will be the lace supply vendor. This year, we've expanded to 76 vendors in the various fiber arts supplies. Along with the guilds that have co-sponsored in the past, we welcome the smocking guild and a basket guild to our regular line-up. The Enchanted Lacemakers would love to have you come and meet us. We'd love to have you join us for dinner after! The website for Fiesta is www.fiberartsfiesta.org and contains the specifics for attending. The show has just recieved the Albuquerque Creative Arts People's Choice Award for favorite event in Albuquerque! That was snazzy affair and we had a great time discussing handmade lace. We also found new venues to demonstrate. In June, we'll demonstrate at the Albuquerque Folk Festival. It is primarily a music and dance festival that has been incorporating a craft section. Hope to meet some travelers! Laura Sandison New Mexico, USA - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers
The Brazilians do use thorns from a tree to use as pins. They are very sturdy and quite effective. After a while, the blunt end tends to get a little mushy and looks a little like a fuzzy top. Some use bobbins that have had a nut stuck onto the end of a thin stick. I've tried to use this type of set-up and it's pretty clumsy for me. However, these ladies have perfected the technique. They are quite tidy in their work. Laura Sandison New Mexico, USA - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] Pins, thorns and bone slivers
In fact, I have often wondered if it wasn't some kind of technical or commercial development regarding pins that was responsible for the switch to point ground laces from those with Flemish or plaited grounds. Point ground laces take less time to make. If you have more pins than time, why not make one ground stitch rather than four? In a message dated 5/20/2011 8:11:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, l...@binnie.id.au writes: By the time lace makers were using hundreds or even thousands of pins the price of pins had dropped significantly. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] pins and thorns
Dear Arachnids Thank you for all the replies. I think we have had plenty of evidence that thorns have been used as subsitutes for pins and we have had some interesting comments about pins in general. I find these discussions are always enlightening. Long may Aachne last. Happy lacemaking Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
