[lace] RE: Carbon dating of lace

[Lorelei Halley]

Laurie
Very interesting. And you would know. What date range do you think carbon
dating works best for?
Lorelei

-Original Message-
From: Laurie Waters [mailto:lswaters...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 8:45 PM
To: 'Lorelei Halley' ; 'Nancy Neff'
; jeria...@aol.com; 'Arachne' 
Cc: lswaters...@comcast.net
Subject: Carbon dating of lace

I gave a talk at IOLI last year, in which I describe the first carbon dating
of an actual lace year.  I've just written that up for the next OIDFA
Bulletin.  It is probably the most technical article OIDFA has ever seen

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[lace] Carbon dating of lace

[Laurie Waters]

I gave a talk at IOLI last year, in which I describe the first carbon dating
of an actual lace year.  I've just written that up for the next OIDFA
Bulletin.  It is probably the most technical article OIDFA has ever seen,
and I'm not entirely certain how it will translate into French.  But my
purpose is to give a thorough review of how carbon dating can be applied to
dating lace.
I don't know where this figure of 10,000 years comes from (I can guess), but
keep in mind that perfectly good results were obtained for the Shroud of
Turin.
There are many subtleties to carbon dating of recent items (meaning within
about the past 500 years), but it is by no means a technique to be ignored.
If you aren't an OIDFA member, you can become one and get the article :-)
Laurie

-Original Message-
From: Lorelei Halley [mailto:lhal...@bytemeusa.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 6:40 PM
To: 'Nancy Neff' ; jeria...@aol.com; 'Arachne'
; 'Laurie Waters' 
Subject: RE: [lace] Dating Mechlin...

Nancy
>From my reading of historical geology I have the impression that radio
carbon dating works very well for 10,000 years and somewhat older -- perfect
for old stone age and Neolithic, but not good for recent. Burials around
Stonehenge yes, lace no.

And the loupe probably is the best portable tool, unless you have a tablet
that can take pictures at very high resolution, and with enough storage
space for the images.
Lorelei

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
Nancy Neff
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 4:22 PM
To: jeria...@aol.com; Arachne ; Laurie Waters

Subject: [lace] Dating Mechlin...

Jeri,

Laurie Waters reported at IOLI that she paid the $500 or so to have a
snippet of some lace radiocarbon-dated last year, with the latest, most
precise technology.  The lace was thought to be 16th or 17th century. The
radiocarbon dating came out with a range that included the putative date,
but had such a large possible error on the date that the conclusion was that
radiocarbon-dating is not precise enough to be useful.
And BTW, a jeweler's loupe is still very useful 'in the field' so to
speak--there's lots of better tools in the lab, but at a dealer's stall, the
loupe still can't be beat, or is there a convenient tool I'm overlooking?

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

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RE: [lace] Dating Mechlin...

[Lorelei Halley]

Nancy
>From my reading of historical geology I have the impression that radio
carbon dating works very well for 10,000 years and somewhat older -- perfect
for old stone age and Neolithic, but not good for recent. Burials around
Stonehenge yes, lace no.

And the loupe probably is the best portable tool, unless you have a tablet
that can take pictures at very high resolution, and with enough storage
space for the images.
Lorelei

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
Nancy Neff
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 4:22 PM
To: jeria...@aol.com; Arachne ; Laurie Waters

Subject: [lace] Dating Mechlin...

Jeri,

Laurie Waters reported at IOLI that she paid the $500 or so to have a
snippet of some lace radiocarbon-dated last year, with the latest, most
precise technology.  The lace was thought to be 16th or 17th century. The
radiocarbon dating came out with a range that included the putative date,
but had such a large possible error on the date that the conclusion was that
radiocarbon-dating is not precise enough to be useful.
And BTW, a jeweler's loupe is still very useful 'in the field' so to
speak--there's lots of better tools in the lab, but at a dealer's stall, the
loupe still can't be beat, or is there a convenient tool I'm overlooking?

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

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[lace] Dating Mechlin...

[Nancy Neff]

Jeri,

Laurie Waters reported at IOLI that she paid the $500 or so to have a
snippet of some lace radiocarbon-dated last year, with the latest, most
precise technology.  The lace was thought to be 16th or 17th century. The
radiocarbon dating came out with a range that included the putative date,
but had such a large possible error on the date that the conclusion was
that radiocarbon-dating is not precise enough to be useful.

I'm copying Laurie on this post--I have a queasy feeling that I'm
mis-remembering how the dating came out relative to the assigned date, and
I don't find anything hits on "radiocarbon" on LaceNews. She'll send us the
correct info if I've muddled it, although I do believe I am correct that
the possible error on the date was very large.

And BTW, a jeweler's loupe is still very useful 'in the field' so to
speak--there's lots of better tools in the lab, but at a dealer's stall,
the loupe still can't be beat, or is there a convenient tool I'm
overlooking?

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 08:18 AM, Jeri Ames eria...@aol.com> wrote:

...Soon we will have laces that have been carbon dated.  The  thread,
that is...

...30 or more years ago, I remember Elizabeth Kurella digging into  her
purse
to find a loop (used by jewelers) so she could examine a  lace brought to
her attention at an Embroiderers' Guild national  seminar.  We've advanced
from that with vision aids...

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[lace] Lace ID reference books

[devonthein]

In relation to what Alex was saying about Mechlin and what it meant in the
18th century, I think that Santina Levey says fairly early in her book that
most of the terms we use now were coined by lace dealers in the late 19th and
early 20th century, and would be unrecognizable to people in the era when the
lace was made.
If memory serves, a particularly egregious example was calling a lace Binche
because a piece resembling it had been found on a carnival costume in Binche,
although the lace was never made there. Another example is dubbing things
Cluny after a piece found in the Cluny museum in Paris.
But, of course, it is the language being  used in the late 19th and early 20th
century by dealers and auctioneers that has found its way into the catalogue
system.
I have been consulting a number of books. Levey, of course, Toomer, Antique
Laces, Identifying types and Techniques, Gwynne’s the Illustrated Dictionary
of Lace, Kurella’s Guide to Lace and Linens, and Pat Earnshaw’s three
books, the Dictionary of Lace, the Identification of Lace and Bobbin and
Needle laces Identification and Care. Interestingly, Pat Earnshaw’s books
are not necessarily consistent. But, that serves as a powerful reminder that
whenever you write something and publish it, you immediately find out  you
were wrong about something.
I also have a dictionary  by J. Coene called Kantlexicon. In addition, I have
my vast library of books on individual laces. One thing that has been a
pleasant surprise is that it is sometimes quite easy to search the older books
on google books using a word search.
Does anyone have other suggestions for good ID books?
Devon


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[lace] CottonThread

[Bespokethreadsandyarns]

I am also intrugued by the tread. When I handspin cotton for thread, it is 
finished as a skein because I am guessing cotton as many threads were sold by 
unit weight. 840 yards in a hank of cotton.  So could be 1/4 hank lengths. I 
have seen antique thread skein bobbin winding stations. 
As far as why linen like? Cotton is often 'sized' in finishing process to add 
body. If it is not then the tiny cotton fibers wiggle from the twist and rub 
against each other. Gassing would also burn off the frizzies for smooth thread. 
I just size the cotton. Could also be when raw cotton is spun direct from boll, 
the cotton has a natural wax on the fibers. In the finishing it used to be that 
one must boil the cotton to remove wax, felt the fibers making it stronger, 
slightly bleach the cotton. 

I would be interested if people have documentation about the processing of 
antique cotton thread. If I had an example, I can do forensic spinning to 
figure how it was spun and finished in the first place.

Sue M
 

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[lace] Lappets/Fine thread

[devonthein]

I sent Catherine via email a photo of a spool of thread that I studied during
a demonstration of Alencon by the school in Alencon in 2014. It seemed like a
normal spool of fine cotton thread to me, not anything unavailable on the
market. I noted that in a video they showed at the museum the thread was in
skein form. So, I don’t know if this means that they used to use a thread in
skein form, and now have to get spools. Laurie Waters, who taught an Alencon
class at the convention had obtained skeins of antique thread on ebay and that
is the format that they used in about 1980 when she visited Alencon.
 Another possibility I suppose is that they could use different threads in
different formats, but they didn’t bother to bring a skein to the
demonstration. For readers of the Bulletin, this was the demonstration in
which under my persistent questioning about materials, it was revealed that
the horsehair is not from the tail of the male horses, but rather from the
forelock! This was fascinating because we in Laurie Waters’ class had
measured the horse hair, using a computer microscope, in the antique Alencon
and found it was thinner than any of the horse hair in any of the whisks, etc,
that Laurie had collected as horsehair samples. In fact the hair was closer in
size to our own hair. So that was quite puzzling until I was told in Alencon
that the hair was from the forelock of the horse and the horse was from the
Royal Stables of Le Pen and this had always been the case!
However, in the endless search for suitable thread, I encountered another
interesting idea. Kumiko Nakazaki was teaching Binche in NJ. I was making a
piece in cotton and it didn’t look much like the sample Kumiko had made.
Kumiko told me that there is a kind of cotton thread, and I think she said it
was available in Bruges, that had a hand, or somehow behaved like the old
linen thread. I think it was an antique thread and she didn’t seem to know
how old it might be. When I threw out suggestions like 1950, and 1910, she
couldn’t even give me a ball park type of answer. So, I am totally intrigued
with the idea that you could make a cotton thread that behaved like the old
linen thread.
Has anyone else heard of this? This sounds like a challenge for Bart and
Francis.

Devon

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Re: [lace] 150-year old wedding dress

[Sue Duckles]

The thing about this story is that the dress was made by a few times gt 
grandmother for her wedding.  It's been worn by many brides since then and was 
given to the bride by her grandmother for the big day.  The dry cleaners had a 
'By Royal Appointment', and so were deemed to be a good dry cleaners.  However 
they went bankrupt and all 'assets' were seized... including all the clothing 
in the place!  When they found out they tried to get the dress back only to be 
told it couldn't be found! Other brides were/are in similar situations.  This 
is why they appealed to social media.

Let's hope they are reunited with the dress soon.  It was taken away by the 
sequestrators, and it's hoped it will be reunited with its owners permanently 
next week.

Sue in East Yorkshire where it's hardly stopped raining for 4 days!!

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Re: [lace] 150-year old wedding dress

[Adele Shaak]

The story does make me love social media, though.

I’ve seen several examples over the past couple of years, of valuable items,
said to be lost, being found once somebody made it their business to really
really look for them.

By the way, my first job was in a dry cleaners. We did take care, but even so,
if items disappeared it was usually because the hanger had gotten mixed up
with another customer’s order, and so was taken out of the store. So, there
really wasn’t much point in looking in the store for it. I wonder if that
was the attitude held by the first people to search for it. If they were
thinking “nah, it’s not here” they’re not going to find it.

And when I read the article, it seemed to me the owner might have put the
dress aside, as a special item, and that’s why it was overlooked. A couple
of years ago my sister-in-law gave me my mother’s wedding dress. She had had
it smashed up in a bag for 30 years since Mom died. Then she took it to be
cleaned and pressed - the cleaner said he spent a month just looking at it,
wondering how to go about cleaning it, before the deadline loomed and he went
ahead and did his best. I bet the cleaner did something like that in this
case, too.

Glad to hear she’s going to a specialist with it now.

Adele
West Vancouver, BC


> On Feb 12, 2017, at 9:55 AM, devonth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, the story supports the fact that people who like lace are not
“mainstream” since the owner, and we, assumed it had been stolen with the
idea in mind that it would be sold by the nefarious thieves because it is an
object of value. The real story is that it lay on the floor of an abandoned
building where it was mistaken for detritus.

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RE: [lace] 150-year old wedding dress

[devonthein]

Unfortunately, the story supports the fact that people who like lace are not
“mainstream” since the owner, and we, assumed it had been stolen with the
idea in mind that it would be sold by the nefarious thieves because it is an
object of value. The real story is that it lay on the floor of an abandoned
building where it was mistaken for detritus.

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Re: [lace] 150-year old wedding dress

[Adele Shaak]

It is a beautiful dress, though, if it had been my wedding, I would have worn a 
slip.

Adele
a conservative dresser in
West Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)

> For those that might have missed it - its not exactly headline news - here is 
> a story for you to enjoy . or breathe a sigh of relief over.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-38944387
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jane

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[lace] Alencon resources on YouTube

[Susan]

Thank you for posting the links Nancy--Queen of Lace indeed.  It was 
interesting to see how the motifs are drawn out in white ink.  As an added 
bonus, the proper "mode d'emploi" for an afficot was pictured!  Sincerely, 
Susan Hottle USA

Sent from my iPad

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[lace] Dating Mechlin by Touch, Sight, Knowledge

[Jeriames]

"Repairs in vertical stacks, with a suspicious similar distance between the 
 stacks?"  I have a Point de Gaze lappet cap (more recent at about 150  
years), where there are difficult-to-see snags positioned opposite each  other 
when it is placed on my head.  These snags are right where  earrings might 
have been worn.  
 
Something to look for when studying lace is why there is any sign of  
repairs, especially on 1700s or earlier laces.  About 20 years ago,  when 
laying 
a lace on a magnifier and viewing it - enlarged - on an adjacent  computer 
became possible at The Metropolitan, I recall seeing repairs that  are not 
visible to the naked eye or less sophisticated methods of magnification  used 
up to that time.   
 
It is likely that new methods of dating will soon be utilized.  We  should 
be able to really identify threads from different sources and different  
places.  Soon we will have laces that have been carbon dated.  The  thread, 
that is.  One small step forward
 
Skilled lacemakers once did conservation/restoration by touch as well as  
sight.  The auction example, showing only one side of the lace, is why I  
recommend buying lace that you can examine - in person.  When you sit at a  
table with several similar old laces, there really are different  "feelings" to 
them. 
 
30 or more years ago, I remember Elizabeth Kurella digging into  her purse 
to find a loop (used by jewelers) so she could examine a  lace brought to 
her attention at an Embroiderers' Guild national  seminar.  We've advanced 
from that with vision aids.  Will we ever be  able to remotely "feel" lace with 
our finger tips as part of the  examination process? 
 
Jeri Ames in Maine USA
Lace and Embroidery Resource Center  
--
 
In a message dated 2/12/2017 12:54:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lhal...@bytemeusa.com writes:

...The  date bothers me. However the clothwork and
the shapes of the motifs do fit  better with the mid 1700s than with the mid
1800s.  If it were a part  lace (with lumps on the wrong side) I would be 
not
surprised.  Mechlin/Droschel ground was used as a ground in the mid 1700s in
Brussels  part laces.  It would be added in vertical stripes. This piece
does  show repairs in vertical stacks, with a suspicious similar distance
between  the stacks. But without a photo of the wrong side, showing lumps  
where
motifs ended, I can't use that to explain the date.   Lorelei

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[lace] 150-year old wedding dress

[Jane]

For those that might have missed it - its not exactly headline news - 
here is a story for you to enjoy . or breathe a sigh of relief over.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-38944387

Best wishes,
Jane

In a very cold, gloomy New Forest

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Re: [lace] lappets

[Catherine Barley]

Hi Nancy

Thank you so much for the video links and I've watched them all this morning.  
However, like yourself, my French is pretty much non-existent so not able to 
know if they divulged the brand of thread that they use to make their Alencon 
lace, but I doubt very much that they would have done!  I really don't think 
the Tourist Board would be willing to share this information either.  I'm 
inclined to agree with you about the lace on the heading of their page but the 
image is so poor that I couldn't really be certain as some of the areas do look 
very similar to some of the needlelace filling - surely they wouldn't make such 
a dreadful error, but who knows!

Many thanks once again for the time and trouble you have taken on my behalf.

Happy lacemaking

Catherine 
Catherine Barley Needlelace
www.catherinebarley.com

Original message
>From : nancy.a.n...@gmail.com
Date : 11/02/2017 - 20:13 (GMTST)
To : catherinebar...@btinternet.com
Cc : lace@arachne.com
Subject : Re: [lace] lappets

Catherine,

I didn't see an answer to your question about Alencon lace, but I don't get
all the [lace] messages, so everybody forgive me if I duplicate someone
else's answer.

Yes, it is apparently still made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hI1uz0p9sk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_7lwhYEUCk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBws14YwHgw

My French is close to non-existent, so I don't know if there's enough info
in those to provide a lead to find out what thread they use.

Maybe write to the Tourism Bureau to see if they could put you in touch
with someone?
http://www.holidays-alencon.com/discover/point-dalencon-lacework  (The page
cracks me up, however--maybe I'm losing it, but the lace in the heading on
their page is not Alencon needle-lace but rather is Belgian bobbin-lace, if
I'm not mistaken.)

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Catherine Barley <
catherinebar...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know what brand of thread is currently used in France to make
> their Alencon lace or even if anyone does actually still make Alencon lace?
>

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