Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus]

On 25.04.2018 0:03, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:

My other suggestion was to simply place a TActionList on each Package
windows. Then define all the actions with associated shortcuts. The
Captions of each TAction doesn't need to contain the & symbol for a
hotkey (though highly recommended). The defined TAction.Shortcut
property works just fine without the & in the TAction.Caption. The for
should then process those shortcuts as part of any keyboard event in the
form. That's all part of the benefits in using actions.


Don't forget that every shortcut needs to be editable in Key Mappings in 
IDE options. The &-hotkeys don't.


Ondrej
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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus]

On 2018-04-24 21:20, Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus wrote:
>> Unfortunately that's how the TToolBar works. No chance to change it. 
>> We'd need a new toolbar component that would accept focus for the tool 
>> buttons.
> There is one way to do it more simply: add &-hotkeys to the buttons.
> E.g. the help button can be triggered with Alt+H (because the caption is 
> ). Adding &-hotkeys to other buttons will allow to trigger them 
> with a keyboard as well.

I was just going to suggest that, then read your second reply. :-)

My other suggestion was to simply place a TActionList on each Package
windows. Then define all the actions with associated shortcuts. The
Captions of each TAction doesn't need to contain the & symbol for a
hotkey (though highly recommended). The defined TAction.Shortcut
property works just fine without the & in the TAction.Caption. The for
should then process those shortcuts as part of any keyboard event in the
form. That's all part of the benefits in using actions.

Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus]

On 24.04.2018 22:14, Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus wrote:

On 24.04.2018 21:41, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:

Currently I can't tab between toolbar buttons, can't trigger the "More"
dropdown.


Unfortunately that's how the TToolBar works. No chance to change it. 
We'd need a new toolbar component that would accept focus for the tool 
buttons.


There is one way to do it more simply: add &-hotkeys to the buttons.
E.g. the help button can be triggered with Alt+H (because the caption is 
). Adding &-hotkeys to other buttons will allow to trigger them 
with a keyboard as well.


Ondrej
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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus]

On 24.04.2018 21:41, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:

On 2018-04-24 19:36, Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus wrote:

The "Source -> Enclose in IFDEF" dialog comes to mind.

I don't see a problem here. Can you be specific?

I've just retested with Lazarus Trunk, and indeed it is keyboard
friendly now. It definitely wasn't so before. Not sure when it got
improved, but I'm very glad it is. I'll start using it again.


Yes, people have actually improved many dialog's UX. AlexeyT has been 
one of them.



The Package windows too.

This one is better to be used with mouse. Honestly, I don't know how you
want to redesign it to be usable with the keyboard.

The ability to quickly search and open a package (probably project
dependies only) and then be able to quickly do actions like Build,
Search for unit etc.


For "Search for unit" there is a new feature in trunk: Menu -> File -> 
Open Unit. It lists all available units for current file that you can 
quickly open.


Maybe you can use it instead.


And the ability to switch back to the main editor
windows again.

Currently I can't tab between toolbar buttons, can't trigger the "More"
dropdown.


Unfortunately that's how the TToolBar works. No chance to change it. 
We'd need a new toolbar component that would accept focus for the tool 
buttons.



I can't even figure out how to tab between IDE windows (I can
tab between ALL applications currently open, but not just Lazarus).


I don't know about other OS than Windows, but it is indeed not possible 
yet (on Windows). For now, you have to declare a shortcut to show/focus 
a specific IDE window.


But it should be easily possible to add support for this. E.g. take a 
look how the tabbing through recent editor files is done (Ctrl+~, 
Ctrl+Shift+~). A similar function could be easily adapted to tab through 
open IDE windows as well.


Ondrej
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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus]

On 2018-04-24 19:57, Santiago A. via Lazarus wrote:
>   * Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than
> mousing.
>   * The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding.
> 
> This contradiction between user-experience and reality apparently forms
> the basis for many user/developers’ belief that the keyboard is faster.

Speed is only one part of it. And yes, I believe I am faster with
shortcuts. :-)

The other very important point is... while coding I want that flow of
ideas to continue uninterrupted. The ideas and code should flow from by
brain to the IDE. Leaving the keyboard and switching to the mouse
(trackball in my case) breaks that flow.


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus]

On 2018-04-24 19:22, R0b0t1 wrote:
>> Back to Lazarus - there are some dialogs that totally annoying me
>> because they were not designed with keyboard users in mind.
>> ...snip...
>
> The things in the last paragraph especially are what I do not like. It
> may be that taking inspiration from either Visual Studio or JetBrains
> IDEs would be a good idea.

There are already many dialogs that work very well with keyboard users
in mind. Excuse me blowing my own horn. ;-) The "Procedure List" dialog
comes to mind. Default focus, default actions etc are all in place. For
myself, that dialog is my primary way of navigating units.


> I am willing to help, but not very familiar with the Lazarus codebase.

The issues I listed are all very minor things. Any programmer should be
able to fix those. You do not require deep knowledge of Lazarus IDE
internals.


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Santiago A. via Lazarus]

El 23/04/2018 a las 17:53, Santiago A. via Lazarus escribió:
> Time ago I read that interviews to developers after tests show
> consistently that shortcuts are faster, and clock consistently shows
> that mouse is faster.

http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html

We’ve done a cool $50 million of R & D on the Apple Human Interface. We
discovered, among other things, two pertinent facts:

  * Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than
mousing.
  * The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding.

This contradiction between user-experience and reality apparently forms
the basis for many user/developers’ belief that the keyboard is faster.

from
https://www.itworld.com/article/2826902/enterprise-software/7-days-using-only-keyboard-shortcuts--no-mouse--no-trackpad--no-problem-.html

"I watch numerous times a day as colleagues take their hands from the
keyboard, reach for the mouse, and either (1) click in the next field of
a form and recommence typing, or (2) click 'Submit.' It'd take a lot
more than $50 mil worth of research to convince me that (1) tab and (2)
enter are not faster. "

And a little more modern:

https://blog.codinghorror.com/revisiting-keyboard-vs-the-mouse-pt-1/

First, understand that this is a very old quote. In 1989 (apple quote),
the current desktop operating systems were Windows 2.0, DOS 4.0, and Mac
System 6. The "people new to the mouse"

---
Well, this off- topic was a little tongue in tech in the cheek.
Nevertheless, I don't think memorizing a lot of shortcuts is always
superior to a toolbar click.



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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus]

On 24.04.2018 19:28, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:

Back to Lazarus - there are some dialogs that totally annoying me
because they were not designed with keyboard users in mind. ie: Wrong
default actions, or no default actions, wrong default focus item,
incorrect tab order etc.


I am quite sure patches that fix these issues will be applied.


The "Source -> Enclose in IFDEF" dialog comes to mind.


I don't see a problem here. Can you be specific?


The Package windows too.


This one is better to be used with mouse. Honestly, I don't know how you 
want to redesign it to be usable with the keyboard.


Ondrej
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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[R0b0t1 via Lazarus]

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Santiago A. via Lazarus
 wrote:
> These studies show that the most efficient is toolbar; second, keyboard
> shortcuts; third, second level menu option. With the objection that
> shortcuts needs a lot of practice to be better than menu.
>

How well did those studies account for potentially incomparable
workflows? I think I agree with what I think to be their conclusion -
if you have two similar workflows, graphical navigation may be faster,
because it is easier to guide thought with.

But what if I can skip all of the intermediate steps and go straight
to the action? Lots of CLI interfaces especially are domain specific
languages, and the actions can be encoded into key combinations.


On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus
 wrote:
> Saying that, designing a UI in Lazarus or Delphi is obviously faster
> with a mouse. ;-) But I also know of layout managers in Java where
> visual designers are not needed, and you can knock-up a well designed
> and scalable UI in no time using only code (eg: MiG Layout).
>
> Back to Lazarus - there are some dialogs that totally annoying me
> because they were not designed with keyboard users in mind. ie: Wrong
> default actions, or no default actions, wrong default focus item,
> incorrect tab order etc. The "Source -> Enclose in IFDEF" dialog comes
> to mind. The Package windows too. Some of these I have tweaked locally
> to suite my needs better - that goodness for open source projects. Hell,
> you can't even configure/customise shortcuts in Delphi IDE!!!
>

The things in the last paragraph especially are what I do not like. It
may be that taking inspiration from either Visual Studio or JetBrains
IDEs would be a good idea.

I am willing to help, but not very familiar with the Lazarus codebase.

Cheers,
 R0b0t1
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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus]

On 2018-04-23 16:53, Santiago A. via Lazarus wrote:
> These studies show that the most efficient is toolbar; second, keyboard
> shortcuts; third, second level menu option. With the objection that
> shortcuts needs a lot of practice to be better than menu.

Maybe for other programs, but for programming IDE's the rules tend to be
slightly different - they are not "normal" programs, and the user of an
IDE mostly have there hands on the keyboard. My personal experience is
that I absolutely fly when doing editing actions, searching, debugging
etc with only the keyboard. Using the mouse will slow me down
considerably. I primarily use 3 different editors. I made it my mission
to know their shortcuts well, and when possible configure them that the
same action as the same shortcut in all three editors - that makes my
life a bit easier.

Saying that, designing a UI in Lazarus or Delphi is obviously faster
with a mouse. ;-) But I also know of layout managers in Java where
visual designers are not needed, and you can knock-up a well designed
and scalable UI in no time using only code (eg: MiG Layout).

Back to Lazarus - there are some dialogs that totally annoying me
because they were not designed with keyboard users in mind. ie: Wrong
default actions, or no default actions, wrong default focus item,
incorrect tab order etc. The "Source -> Enclose in IFDEF" dialog comes
to mind. The Package windows too. Some of these I have tweaked locally
to suite my needs better - that goodness for open source projects. Hell,
you can't even configure/customise shortcuts in Delphi IDE!!!

Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Santiago A. via Lazarus]

El 14/04/2018 a las 17:47, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus escribió:
> That's an excellent way to learn shortcuts - which ultimately should
> make you work faster (at least that is normally true for developers).

off-topic

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1978942.1979351=DL=GUIDE=231586142=80641087

http://facweb.cs.depaul.edu/sjost/csc423/examples/anova/efficiency.pdf

These studies show that the most efficient is toolbar; second, keyboard
shortcuts; third, second level menu option. With the objection that
shortcuts needs a lot of practice to be better than menu.

Time ago I read that interviews to developers after tests show
consistently that shortcuts are faster, and clock consistently shows
that mouse is faster. The theory that explains this cognitive dissonance
is that while using shortcuts your brain works in the program and in
remembering shortcuts, but with mouse, you brains stops working to do
visual action. The feeling is that with shortcut your brain is always
humming, but with mouse you feel you have a lot of interruptions. But
the fact is that the time you spend thinking the combinations and typing
it is longer than moving the mouse.

Conclusion: Good toolbars and a few well known shortcuts.

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Santiago A.

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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Michael Van Canneyt via Lazarus]

On Sat, 14 Apr 2018, R0b0t1 via Lazarus wrote:


On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus
 wrote:

Hi,

I just discover this add-on for Eclipse. Every time you use the mouse to
do something, it pops up (without interrupting your workflow) and lists
the keyboard shortcut you could have used to accomplish that same task
you just did with the mouse.

That's an excellent way to learn shortcuts - which ultimately should
make you work faster (at least that is normally true for developers).

I wouldn't even know where to start with such a add-on for Lazarus IDE,
but I just thought I would mention it - in case somebody wants to take
up the challenge.

:-)

Regards,
  Graeme


I would be extremely thankful if anyone had the time to at least start
on this. One of my main complains with Lazarus/FPC is that it is IDE
centric. The IDE is not that bad, but it is kind of hard to integrate
into my normal desktop (a tiling window manager).


Would you mind explaining what you mean with IDE centric ?

You can code in notepad++ or "joe" - something which I still
do frequently for small things ?

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[R0b0t1 via Lazarus]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just discover this add-on for Eclipse. Every time you use the mouse to
> do something, it pops up (without interrupting your workflow) and lists
> the keyboard shortcut you could have used to accomplish that same task
> you just did with the mouse.
>
> That's an excellent way to learn shortcuts - which ultimately should
> make you work faster (at least that is normally true for developers).
>
> I wouldn't even know where to start with such a add-on for Lazarus IDE,
> but I just thought I would mention it - in case somebody wants to take
> up the challenge.
>
> :-)
>
> Regards,
>   Graeme

I would be extremely thankful if anyone had the time to at least start
on this. One of my main complains with Lazarus/FPC is that it is IDE
centric. The IDE is not that bad, but it is kind of hard to integrate
into my normal desktop (a tiling window manager).

Cheers,
 R0b0t1
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[Lazarus] Cool IDE add-on idea

[Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus]

Hi,

I just discover this add-on for Eclipse. Every time you use the mouse to
do something, it pops up (without interrupting your workflow) and lists
the keyboard shortcut you could have used to accomplish that same task
you just did with the mouse.

That's an excellent way to learn shortcuts - which ultimately should
make you work faster (at least that is normally true for developers).

I wouldn't even know where to start with such a add-on for Lazarus IDE,
but I just thought I would mention it - in case somebody wants to take
up the challenge.

:-)

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
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My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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