seconds east of the prime meridian - I'm probably
closest to it of anyone on this list.
> The clock on the wall tells the time for social
> purposes, not for the position of the sun in the sky.
Right. And that's without the equation of time coming into the, um,
equation.
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ith what people are used to, which is (mostly)
shifts of an hour.
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Poul-Henning Kamp said:
> Full hour shifts, on the other hand, can be done merely by changing
> the time-zone, and they can be done through the normal political
> process, aligned to recognized borders.
Something I've been arguing for a long time.
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, with colour and
simple graphics available. Often a single "page" would actually be a
cyclic sequence of pages, changing every 20 seconds or so. Subtitles (on
page 888) were just one use.
http://teletext.mb21.co.uk/gallery/ceefax/
or google "Ceefax" for more information.
--
they provide a mechanism for inserting a leap
second for testing purposes (good), but I can't see any description of that
mechanism (bad).
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Tom Van Baak said:
> Yes, of course. This is not the 1960's where saving a byte was an all-day
> decision. The spec is clear. Follow it.
Actually, some of us work in fields where every byte is still expensive.
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Looking only into the future, not historical data, what do people think the
probability is that TAI-UTC will ever be negative? Should data structures
be designed to handle this case or not bother?
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if Delta_at_TAI (t + 1) <= E
L = linearize (t) - E - F
D = int(L / 86400)
H = int((L - D * 86400) / 3600)
M = int((L - D * 86400 - H * 3600) / 60)
S = L - D * 86400 - H * 3600 - M * 60 + F
(F is 1 if and only if the UTC time is XX:XX:XX:60.X)
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really want the fundamental timescale of society, then your zero
point should be the date of the first creation of the world by his Supreme
Noodliness the FSM.
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notes "At various times and in various places throughout medieval
Christian Europe, the new year was celebrated on Dec. 25, the birth of
Jesus; March 1; March 25, the Feast of the Annunciation; and Easter.".
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other. That's not a problem -
there's nothing magical about negative year numbers.
You might just as well argue that we should use LCDs, where the zero point
is the Mayan Long Count date 0.0.0.0.0 (-3113-08-11 PG).
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I'm in favour of using "the existing noon-alignment knob (time zones) to
keep noon at 12" if relevant local authorities want it to be (a lot seem to
want noon at 13).
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med after
some astronomer or other.
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Steve Summit said:
> But on the wire it was:
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 18:59:60 -0500
That's what mutt showed me (I'm running sendmail on my
own FreeBSD box).
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bout 708 AUC, with 15 months and 445 days? Surely that completely
trumps 1712?
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already defined. Leap seconds
> would become a monthly normal instead of a rare event; that is, a regular
> pain in the ass instead of an exceptional pain in the ass [1].
A problem is that each year requires either a zero change or a 2 or 4
second change. Not one second per year.
-
on a regular basis, but I
won't claim it's never happened.
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(UTC+5) border. There don't seem to
be roads, but an off-road vehicle ought to be able to do it in an hour.
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, LV, MT, SK, and SV use terms equivalent
to Greenwich, Greenwich Time, or GMT.
DE, ES, FR, IT, NL, PT, and RO use terms equivalent to Universal Time.
PL says uniwersalnego (GMT).
DA and SL use UTC.
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, if anything to do
with his personal opinion on leap seconds.
In other words: Yeah, he's entitled to his opinion, just like everybody
else, but he doesn't have any special standing for his opinion, which as
others have pointed out, interfaces badly with reality.
Exactly.
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Clive D.W. Feather
to, as is the fact that the amount of change varies both within
the year and from year to year. So there's nothing new for people to get
used to.
Simples.
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someone has already produced one.
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adjustment occurs you have to face
a very elaborate conversion.
No, you need to use a library that's already been written to do the job.
Takes 10 seconds or so.
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small part
second is short for pars minuta secunda, the second small part
And I've seen third and fourth, with the obvious meaning, used in old
documents.
But etymology doesn't override present meanings.
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is chosen by the relevant lawmakers and is normally
a multiple of 15 minutes. If you accept that these reasons override those
for keeping leap seconds, then a name change won't make it easy.
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.
Whether anyone has actually done so, I don't know.
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, no cite) that was decided on a matter of 8
seconds - from memory, an email sent 8 seconds after a midnight deadline.
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less
for those in Palestine.)
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account of
daylight savings time, when what it means is 10:00 BST.
Even worse is the ones that say 10:00 UTC+01:00, which actually mean 09:00
BST.
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numbers, they
are all showing the same time.
[1] But see R.v Haddock [1967] BBC 1.4.
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to handle, even if they don't all do it.
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, I don't hear either term used very often in the UK, where
we (almost) only have one time zone.
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with my understanding of Standard time.
But not mine.
standard time is to be contrasted with local time. Both GMT and BST are
standard time in the UK.
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more from the large numbers of
people in my industry that have failed to climb the complexity hill due to
apathy, incompetence or both.
Or they (or their bosses) have done a cost-benefit analysis and concluded
it's not worth fixing.
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inclusive.
So we're talking a year or so lead time.
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Brooks Harris said:
D) Clarifying timezone guidelines, including standardizing
international date line, UTC offset, and methods of Daylight
instantiation
Um, timezones are a political matter pure and simple. Who do you think is
going to listen to you?
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maps) agrees and gives me
coordinates of:
OS X (Eastings) 547590
OS Y (Northings)177498
Nearest Post Code DA7 5SE
Lat (WGS84) N51:28:38 (51.477194)
Long (WGS84)E0:07:26 (0.123860)
LR TQ475774
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of the Coordinated Universal Time Bill.
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Rob Seaman said:
Systems, software and civilization depend on both interval time and Earth
orientation time.
In what way does civilization depend on Earth orientation time? Given that
existing locations have local time several *hours* away from solar time,
this seems unlikely.
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is still waiting.
(I *did* get the double leap second error removed from ISO C, meaning it
vanished from POSIX as well. Everyone agreed that this had been a simple
misunderstanding of something back when the first version of the C Standard
was being written.)
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in and strongly pushed by the
military needs of the USA?
What's the basis of this assertion?
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, but assumes everyone
already knows.
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.
In that case sane falls victim to corporate responsibility to the
shareholder of insurers and insured. Lawsuits seem inevitable.
We figured out how to fix that in 1750 (see 24 Geo.2 c.23 s.6).
You may now stop panicking.
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right, then you are sadly
deluded.
* DST is an abomination
That's probably the only thing you and I will agree on.
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Rob Seaman said:
The issue (discussed many times previously) is to avoid introducing a secular
trend into UTC.
And, as also discussed, you have yet to show that the woman on the Clapham
omnibus even cares.
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information is still a hassle and handling of the event isn't properly
tested. What this rare event does isn't the main problem.
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the constitutional issues correctly, the Church of England would
be celebrating Easter next Sunday. That sounds like sufficient authority.
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of national governments.
See, for example, 24 Geo.2 c.23 or the decision of the National Convention
on 1793-10-24.
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the antepenultimate day of next month?
Explain your working in each case.
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. In the
format above, those calculations are easy.
Okay, all of those three (as amended in the first case) are of that form:
2012-01-30 + 1 month
2012-02-29 + 4 months
2012-02-27 + 4 months
and let me add:
2011-02-28 + 1 year
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to the previous statement.
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to catch. It's not like
doing a network protocol where there's all kinds of random events sticking
their nose in.)
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Rob Seaman said:
You've imposed the additional requirement that you can't have a primary
timezone, for political reasons.
Requirements are discovered, not imposed.
This from the person who insists that a priori civil time must synchronize
with the sun?
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times an hour was referring to the five minute cadence,
Yes: my memory was that it was every 15 minutes, not every 5.
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4 times
an hour.
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.
And that, I think, matches Tony Finch's point: for many things you don't
care about the interval, you care about the end time in the *relevant* time
zone.
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.
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http
of
whether daylight saving time is in effect or not.
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, deed, notice, or other document
whatsoever and doesn't seem to recognize the possibility that someone
might explicitly put a time zone other than GMT/BST, apart from the
exemption for astronomers.)
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.
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it a
while later when I can skip through the adverts and/or boring bits.
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, though. I might try it on some lawyers.
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to that.
Indeed. But Rob *defines* time as earth angle and then tries to tell us
we're breaking the whole world.
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purely atomic timescale many minutes or hours in error
at a future epoch with no plan for mitigation.
They won't be in error - that's another of your misrepresentations. They
will be different to UT, deliberately.
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are mostly in zone 1, with all of the EU parts in zone 1 [DK, NL]
* 2 are mostly in zone 1 [ES, FR]
* 2 are mostly in zone 0 [GB, PT]
* 1 is in zone 0 [IE]
The four microstates are all in zone 1. The five candidates are in 0, 1, 1,
2, and 2.
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this such that different localities will
separately realize whatever synchronization they deem necessary.
That is total nonsense.
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of CSE (remember those?) examiners,
pointing out that Y2k was on its way and therefore answers that allowed for
4 digit years should not be penalised.
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will be a Saturday, though the leap second will happen on the
Sunday in my local time zone.
2012-12-31 will be a Monday.
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Michael Sokolov said:
For me GMT has a very simple meaning: it basically means the exact
timescale doesn't matter, it can be anything as long as it comes from
someone like Rob Seaman and NOT from someone like PHK.
Who let Humpty-Dumpty on to this list?
--
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Ian Batten said:
Given there's some ambiguity about leap-year rules out into the far future
anyway,
There is? Both the Papal bull and UK legislation look clear enough to me.
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. But Hawaii
and Rapa Nui are going to want to stay on the same day as the rest of their
country, and I don't see the Americas being particularly attracted to New
Zealand.
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Rob Seaman said:
But you did it yourself. Birth certificates list both time and place.
Mine doesn't list time, nor do any of those of my family (who were born in
two different countries, by the way, so this isn't just a UK thing).
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freight train in the USA is 6500 feet long (ie
substantially over a mile) and travels at an average of around 20mph, or at
most 30mph. So it takes around two minutes to pass a point. Timing that to
a precision of a second seems a excessive.
True.
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cope with two trains requesting authority from the
same track section in close succession, which is a problem on a line that
divides trains!
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reasons,
and the reporting time from trackside module to interlocking runs on a
basic cycle of several hundred milliseconds. So a 1 second error isn't
going to faze anyone.
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in the same minute!
I agree with Paul; it's self-inconsistent.
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Tony Finch said:
Another way is to have TAI hours and minutes and seconds, with each day
ending with a partial hour.
This is the arrangement in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy.
And the Honor Harrington books, which is where I got it from.
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that moves its hands around to correct the time, or
my wristwatch whose analogue stopwatch winds back when I reset it or
forwards when I end a pause).
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of the cesium 133 atom.
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this successfully yourself, or is this simply
something that a friend claims he was told someone else told him that they
know someone who did this?
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on a per-minute basis. That
should shake any complaints out in short order.
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that GPS-UTC is an integer.
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a leap
second *every second*.
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calculations are much the same, but the density is much greater.
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steam at, say, an average height of 1km, that
adds a tiny amount to the MoI - about 0.03% of the water's total, or under
0.2 part per million of the earth's total. If it all escapes into space, it
reduces the MoI by 0.1% or so.
[All quantities are in SI units without prefixes.]
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appear to show.
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http
Thanks for this one. It was just the sort of material I was looking for.
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67302810034830
620 My ago64002840034800
Now58402890034740
That's a total loss of under 1%. Some of the source numbers are +/-3%, and
no doubt there are rounding errors in my calculations.
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Tony Finch said:
Would the earth be slowing down so fast without the moon? There's some
tidal coupling in the earth-sun system but isn't it much smaller?
Solar tides are about 40% of lunar ones. But I don't know how that maps
into tidal acceleration of orbits.
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hours at 2100 My
The latter, allegedly, is when increased solar radiation will boil the
oceans and effectively stop tidal coupling.
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, and to stop me having to reconstruct the formula from first principles,
does anyone have the relationship between length of day and distance to the
moon?
Thanks in advance.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler,
Email: cl...@davros.org | it will get its revenge.
Web: http
at a single Earth location
(and I don't have a problem with that, so long as you're honest about it).
--
Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler,
Email: cl...@davros.org | it will get its revenge.
Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer
Mobile: +44 7973 377646
.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler,
Email: cl...@davros.org | it will get its revenge.
Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer
Mobile: +44 7973 377646
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radio-controlled clocks do
not apply the DUT bits...
If those clocks were being sold as GMT clock or UK legal time clock,
then the seller would be in breach of the Sale of Goods Act. But I don't
believe they are; they're just sold as self-synchronizing to MSF.
--
Clive D.W. Feather
millenium) to another? In other words, how is this any more complex
than Russia deciding not to end DST this year?
--
Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler,
Email: cl...@davros.org | it will get its revenge.
Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer
Mobile: +44 7973 377646
further west than that, and there are
parts of Alaska where it's 0842 solar time at civil noon.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler,
Email: cl...@davros.org | it will get its revenge.
Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer
Mobile: +44 7973 377646
the difference between UTC and BST.
What makes you think that financial lawyers will think of it.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler,
Email: cl...@davros.org | it will get its revenge.
Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer
Mobile: +44 7973 377646
, much hilarity ensues from time to time as one or the other turns
up at the wrong time for a video conference. I can't wait to see what
happens at the end of March.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler,
Email: cl...@davros.org | it will get its revenge.
Web: http
, but leap seconds happen at
16:00 local time in California. And is there no out-of-hours trading?
--
Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler,
Email: cl...@davros.org | it will get its revenge.
Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer
Mobile: +44 7973 377646
at
03:59:59.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler,
Email: cl...@davros.org | it will get its revenge.
Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer
Mobile: +44 7973 377646
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