Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using copyrighted data to locate objects in bing (and trace over bing)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 25 ago 2016, alle ore 21:41, Bjoern Hassler  
> ha scritto:
> 
> The use: I'm interested in locating megalithic structures, but only where 
> those are visible on Bing. I am not interested in copying anything from the 
> map to OSM that I cannot see in Bing (as it probably isn't worth visiting 
> anyway).


I believe this kind of use of IGM is not permitted because you can't see in 
bing what it is, you only find these places because you use the IGM maps, i.e. 
you derive information from them.


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using copyrighted data to locate objects in bing (and trace over bing)

[Bjoern Hassler]

Hi Christoph,

Definitely a practical query!

The rights: My interest is wth the IGM maps
http://www.igmi.org/vendite/autorizzazione_riproduzioni.php
Their rights are fairly standard: Reproduction and distribution to the
public is prohibited. However, use is permitted for personal use (e.g.
research). The terms also forbid processing/re-publishing of the data.

The use: I'm interested in locating megalithic structures, but only where
those are visible on Bing. I am not interested in copying anything from the
map to OSM that I cannot see in Bing (as it probably isn't worth visiting
anyway). As described, I would like to merely use the map to locate objects
using a Bing layer in JOSM, and (if they can be identified from space)
enter them into OSM. However, I am interested in doing this for a
systematically in a few areas that I might visit, so it might be 50
objects, rather than one. Perhaps this constitutes "processing" (although
it's not digital processing)? Or maybe it's more of a question as to "when"
it constitutes processing.

I should also say that I am not interested in testing the law (which is
also not in line with trying to keep OSM genuinely open and free of
challenges) - if it looks contentious, then I'll try to obtain (and
document) the relevant permission first.

Any clarification you might be able to offer (or insights from other
countries, such as UK/ordinance survey)  would be appreciated!
Bjoern

On 25 August 2016 at 19:54, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> On Thursday 25 August 2016, Bjoern Hassler wrote:
> >
> > Suppose I have a list of GPS points of airports (one per airport),
> > derived from publicly available paper (copyrighted) maps. Suppose
> > there is no issue with sui generis rights in that list, but that
> > there was no special permission to create that list (and thus the
> > list is not rights cleared as such, but only used personally). I
> > would think that: [...]
>
> I am not sure if you are engaging in a theoretical thought exercise or
> if you are trying to solve a practical problem.  In the former case you
> probably will not get much reaction here.
>
> In the latter case you would need to be more specific about what data
> you are considering using, who produced this data and under what terms
> of use it has been made available to you.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using copyrighted data to locate objects in bing (and trace over bing)

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 25 August 2016, Bjoern Hassler wrote:
>
> Suppose I have a list of GPS points of airports (one per airport),
> derived from publicly available paper (copyrighted) maps. Suppose
> there is no issue with sui generis rights in that list, but that
> there was no special permission to create that list (and thus the
> list is not rights cleared as such, but only used personally). I
> would think that: [...]

I am not sure if you are engaging in a theoretical thought exercise or 
if you are trying to solve a practical problem.  In the former case you 
probably will not get much reaction here.

In the latter case you would need to be more specific about what data 
you are considering using, who produced this data and under what terms 
of use it has been made available to you.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using copyrighted data to locate objects in bing (and trace over bing)

[Bjoern Hassler]

Hi Yves,

Depends what you mean by "source". In scenario (2), the copyrighted map
tells me where to look, but I use bing imagery to trace over the object
(say the runway). The copyrighted map is used, but only provides
information in a conceptual sense, but is not a source of (numerical) data:
The OSM data is generated by tracing over bing. So is the use of the
conceptual information from the map permissible or not?

I would think that it's not a copyright issue: what is the work that is
being copied? The lat/lon from POIs in the copyrighted map is not copied.
However, it may be an issue with sui generis or other rights. Perhaps the
issue is with "systematically" (as you suggest?). Clearly systematic
copying of data would be prohibited by sui generis rights. However, I'd
argue that scenario (2) is not copying of data: The data is used for
discovery, but bing imagery provides the data entered into OSM.

Many thanks for the message!
Bjoern

On 25 August 2016 at 19:09, Yves  wrote:

> In other words, you would systematically use a copyrighted map as a source
> to enter data in OSM?
> Yves
>
> Le 25 août 2016 19:49:05 GMT+02:00, Bjoern Hassler 
> a écrit :
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Is it permissible to use (copyrighted) maps to discover features on Bing
>> (and trace those into OSM)?
>>
>> Suppose I have a list of GPS points of airports (one per airport),
>> derived from publicly available paper (copyrighted) maps. Suppose there is
>> no issue with sui generis rights in that list, but that there was no
>> special permission to create that list (and thus the list is not rights
>> cleared as such, but only used personally). I would think that:
>>
>> (1) I am not permitted to transfer that data straight to OSM, because I
>> would effectively be tracing over those maps, which constitutes
>> digitisation, and which is very likely not permitted. Do you agree?
>>
>> (2) However, I am allowed to use that list to systematically find
>> airports on bing. I.e. use an editor to visit those GPS coordinates, and
>> then see whether a runway is present in bing. If the runway is there (and
>> not in OSM already), I then manually trace over bing to add the runway; if
>> nothing is there, I do nothing.
>>
>> I assume that (2) does not violate copyright, because I am only using the
>> copyrighted information to find possible locations in bing, and then trace
>> over bing. Do you agree?
>>
>> Two concerns:
>>
>> (A) While it does not violate copyright, maybe it violate other rights
>> (sui generis rights associated with the original maps) or other terms of
>> use (for the original map)?
>>
>> (B) My second concern is that (1) could be seen as a "limiting" case of
>> (2): Suppose I don't trace over the runway, but I just enter a POI for
>> airport. Suppose that often those POIs are close to the GPS point in the
>> original map? Surely, that is effectively case (1), and would not be
>> permitted? So (2) hinges on the fact that you see the object on bing, and
>> then trace over it in bing.
>>
>> (3) A final consideration: In (2), can I enter other public data into OSM
>> (such as the name of the airport) that I derived from the map? The name as
>> such is not copyrighted, but maybe there is a sui generis right in the
>> collection of the names?
>>
>> Thanks for any light that you can shed on this! (Or any websites /
>> documents with further information.)
>>
>> All the best,
>> Bjoern
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
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>> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using copyrighted data to locate objects in bing (and trace over bing)

[Yves]

In other words,  you would systematically use a copyrighted map as a source to 
enter data in OSM? 
Yves 

Le 25 août 2016 19:49:05 GMT+02:00, Bjoern Hassler  a 
écrit :
>Dear all,
>
>Is it permissible to use (copyrighted) maps to discover features on
>Bing
>(and trace those into OSM)?
>
>Suppose I have a list of GPS points of airports (one per airport),
>derived
>from publicly available paper (copyrighted) maps. Suppose there is no
>issue
>with sui generis rights in that list, but that there was no special
>permission to create that list (and thus the list is not rights cleared
>as
>such, but only used personally). I would think that:
>
>(1) I am not permitted to transfer that data straight to OSM, because I
>would effectively be tracing over those maps, which constitutes
>digitisation, and which is very likely not permitted. Do you agree?
>
>(2) However, I am allowed to use that list to systematically find
>airports
>on bing. I.e. use an editor to visit those GPS coordinates, and then
>see
>whether a runway is present in bing. If the runway is there (and not in
>OSM
>already), I then manually trace over bing to add the runway; if nothing
>is
>there, I do nothing.
>
>I assume that (2) does not violate copyright, because I am only using
>the
>copyrighted information to find possible locations in bing, and then
>trace
>over bing. Do you agree?
>
>Two concerns:
>
>(A) While it does not violate copyright, maybe it violate other rights
>(sui
>generis rights associated with the original maps) or other terms of use
>(for the original map)?
>
>(B) My second concern is that (1) could be seen as a "limiting" case of
>(2): Suppose I don't trace over the runway, but I just enter a POI for
>airport. Suppose that often those POIs are close to the GPS point in
>the
>original map? Surely, that is effectively case (1), and would not be
>permitted? So (2) hinges on the fact that you see the object on bing,
>and
>then trace over it in bing.
>
>(3) A final consideration: In (2), can I enter other public data into
>OSM
>(such as the name of the airport) that I derived from the map? The name
>as
>such is not copyrighted, but maybe there is a sui generis right in the
>collection of the names?
>
>Thanks for any light that you can shed on this! (Or any websites /
>documents with further information.)
>
>All the best,
>Bjoern
>
>
>
>
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