Re: Leo on Android!

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Really cool... At some time I plan to test Leo running on my tablet.

Cheers,

Offray

On 26/2/19 16:11, Luka wrote:
> It is now possible to run Leo on Android! 
>
> Software configuration: pydroid, pyqt5 and ministro 2. Pyqt5 was installed 
> from pydroid quick install, ministro 2 was requested the first time pyqt5 was 
> imported. Leo was installed with pip. Some dirty hacks:
>
> 1. Comment block at line 991 of leoApp.py:
> if sys.stdout.encoding and sys.stdout.encoding.lower() != 'utf-8':
> Error is produced otherwise
>
> 2. Import PyQt5 before Leo:
> import PyQt5
> import leo
> leo.run()
>
> There are some problems with initial window size, but after changing 
> smartphone orientation it seems to resize properly.
>
> It seems to work fine, though no in depth testing was carried out. I am not a 
> programmer, just a user, so maybe there is much more elegant way to run Leo 
> on Android. Still, consider it as a proof of concept. 
>

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Interesting article about WebAssembly

[Edward K. Ream]

Bringing the web up to speed with WebAssembly 
.

Proceedings of the 38th ACM SIGPLAN Conference on Programming Language 
Design and Implementation. Association for Computing Machinery: 185–200.

Edward

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Re: Pharo Chronicles: time for a break

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 11:45 AM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

> I never though that Leo would change its base language or libraries. I
was just addressing the fact that without context is difficult to have a
fruitful conversation on the merits of one tool/ecosystem over the other.
Exploring other technologies, ecosystems and ways to program it mostly
about bringing ideas, collaboration and cross pollination, not about
changing core technologies and erasing history.

I agree.  It's been interesting learning Pharo.

Edward

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Re: Leo on Android!

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 3:11 PM Luka  wrote:

> It is now possible to run Leo on Android!
>

That's great!  Looks like it's time to check out an Android emulator.  Do
you have a favorite?

Edward

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Re: Pharo Chronicles: time for a break

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

On 26/2/19 12:28, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 10:07 AM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
> mailto:off...@riseup.net>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> An answer on a particular point. I hope to come back with a more
> detailed response in a couple of weeks.
>
> On 26/2/19 8:09, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>> Pharo is a good enough language, with advantages I have already
>> described. However, it is not clearly superior to Python in any
>> significant way.  The syntax is worse, the libraries are unlikely
>> to be better, and the browsers are inferior to Leo and other
>> Python IDE's. Pharo's windowing system is not likely better than Qt.
>
> Without any explicit reference on how to measure superiority for
> syntax or libraries or browsers or windowing system, this just
> fall in personal preference.
>
>
> I'm willing to believe that the Pharo libs might offer significant
> advantages.  However, I don't see how that matters much to me, or to
> Leo.  For better or worse, Leo is likely to be based on Python.

I never though that Leo would change its base language or libraries. I
was just addressing the fact that without context is difficult to have a
fruitful conversation on the merits of one tool/ecosystem over the other.

Exploring other technologies, ecosystems and ways to program it mostly
about bringing ideas, collaboration and crosspollination, not about
changing core technologies and erasing history.

Offray


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Re: Best Python IDE's on Slant.co

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 9:34 AM Neal Becker  wrote:

> I still haven't found time to actually try out leo.  I'm interested in how
> it could be used as a python ide.  Are there any tutorials regarding this
> or other references?  (I use emacs as python ide now).
>

There are several tutorials available.  Just follow the links on Leo's home
page .   Questions here are always welcome.

Edward

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Re: Pharo Chronicles: time for a break

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 10:07 AM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
off...@riseup.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> An answer on a particular point. I hope to come back with a more detailed
> response in a couple of weeks.
> On 26/2/19 8:09, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> Pharo is a good enough language, with advantages I have already described.
> However, it is not clearly superior to Python in any significant way.  The
> syntax is worse, the libraries are unlikely to be better, and the browsers
> are inferior to Leo and other Python IDE's. Pharo's windowing system is not
> likely better than Qt.
>
> Without any explicit reference on how to measure superiority for syntax or
> libraries or browsers or windowing system, this just fall in personal
> preference.
>

I'm willing to believe that the Pharo libs might offer significant
advantages.  However, I don't see how that matters much to me, or to Leo.
For better or worse, Leo is likely to be based on Python.

Edward

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Re: latex syntax coloring

[Rob]

Josef, wonder why my experience is different. I write LaTeX in Leo almost 
every day and have no difficulty with syntax coloring. See screenshot:

[image: 190226 LaTeX Syntax.PNG]

Rob...

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 10:27:16 AM UTC-5, Josef wrote:
>
> latex syntax coloring colors only some common latex commands, for others 
> only the first letter is colorized.
> I realize, that coloring all possible latex commands is impossible, since 
> one can define pretty much anything to be a command in latex,
> but it would be relatively simple to cover anything starting with a 
> backslash and ending before the first special or whitespace character.
> That would cover most user-defined commands also, because it is all one 
> can produce with \newcommand.
>
> - Josef
>

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Re: Pharo Chronicles: time for a break

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Hi,

An answer on a particular point. I hope to come back with a more
detailed response in a couple of weeks.

On 26/2/19 8:09, Edward K. Ream wrote:
> Pharo is a good enough language, with advantages I have already
> described. However, it is not clearly superior to Python in any
> significant way.  The syntax is worse, the libraries are unlikely to
> be better, and the browsers are inferior to Leo and other Python
> IDE's. Pharo's windowing system is not likely better than Qt.

Without any explicit reference on how to measure superiority for syntax
or libraries or browsers or windowing system, this just fall in personal
preference. I think that Mattew Butterick's text on Lisp and Racket,
shared recently[1], makes a pretty good example on how give a more
balanced reading of a technology without falling in just flattery (or
the opposite) by making explicit the context.

[1] https://practicaltypography.com/why-racket-why-lisp.html

The big advantage of Leo is the way to (de)construct a text file and
impose order the way you want and the idea of a self-referential
document where @button nodes can access the whole outline and program
it. I think that this ability to bring emergent structure over other
files is unbeaten by any other environment. As I have said several
times. The big disadvantage is moldability and dealing with incidental
complexity of the Python/OS approach to technology (that why we have 433
Mb of downloads for just installing it, without thinking in extending o
changing the system).

Pharo/Smalltalk combination of liveness and moldability on one hand and
active fight against incidental complexity is not beaten by any other
environment I know of (Racket, Clojure, Red Lang, are in such radar).

On browsers, yes, Smalltalk employs a lot of screen real state, but
that's because it doesn't gives you only a metaphor for writing the
system, but also for reading and understanding it: you don't deal with
flat files in a arbitrary folder, but with packages that have objects,
that have protocolos, that have methods, that contain code. It's an
standard way of reading /and writing/ the system. We could think in
other metaphors for traversing the Pharo system as AltBrowser or
Edward's exploration showed and they are really needed, but for a system
with a particular organization, to use a browser that showcase such
structure for reading, writing and extending the system seems a sensible
approach (if you are not thinking in screen space). In my case I start
with a quick Grafoscopio document that allow me to mix prose with code
and then I reified that to the browsers, bridging too much preexisting
structure (from Pharo Browser) with too little (Grafoscopio). Context
switching is the approach I use to understand the advantage of each one.

On syntax, I usually think that is a personal matter. I didn't like Lisp
parenthesis at the beginning, but they are kind of growing on me. I
liked Python white space and apparent simplicity, but is not good enough
to keep me there. I like Smalltalk keywords and blocks and I find them
far more expressive and clear that other things I have used. So if a
"objective" metric for syntax should be used, I just point to the amount
of reserved words of each language, to express similar complexity:
Smalltalk 6. Python 33.

On external windowing systems, I would like to see better integration
with the OS, but meanwhile I keep Pharo's over Qt, Gtk, Xul, etc,
because it provides moldability while keeps complexity at bay.

This is just to emphasize that context matters to make any conversation
on alternatives fruitful. In my context, flexibility outweighs
stability, because I care more about the first and I have dealt with a
lot of stable and inflexible solutions already, with incidental
complexity[2] so I'm willing to experiment on the opposite, for a change.

[2]
http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/grafoscopio-idea-and-initial-progress.html

The explorations on Pharo Chronicles have been interesting so far. I
think that there is a lot to learn from crosspollination of Leo with
Lisps (Racket, Pollen, Clojure), Pharo and others and I don't know if
after the exploration on other waters, "Leo is good enough" should be
the place to always come back. Don't misunderstand me, I think Leo and
this community are superb, but maybe if Leo is always good enough, it
doesn't have much to learn from any other place, and is fine to keep it
as finished software with support. And if it does have stuff to learn,
that should be showcased on future releases embodying such learning (via
live coding, web rendering/integration or whatever is considered worthy
of such other systems).

For me, what Leo and its ideas have to offer is just starting, and the
best way to communicate this is via future releases. Maybe Leo is done,
and it will be an important finished part of a ecosystem of new tools
exploring how we change the way we write, code and visualize. I want to
help in building the unfinished 

Re: Best Python IDE's on Slant.co

[Neal Becker]

I still haven't found time to actually try out leo.  I'm interested in how
it could be used as a python ide.  Are there any tutorials regarding this
or other references?  (I use emacs as python ide now).

On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 7:02 PM Chris George  wrote:

> I read an article on Racket a couple of months ago. I installed it and
> spent a bit of time with it and promptly forgot about it.
>
> Then a week or so ago I followed a link from one of Offray's comments
> to read all about Pollen.
>
> Imagine my surprise when I discovered/remembered I had already installed
> Racket.
>
> Chris
>
> On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 1:31 PM john lunzer  wrote:
> >
> > I seem to remember you saying that you're a writer. Let me know if you
> end up using Scribble (and subsequently Pollen) at all, they both look
> super interesting.
> >
> > On Monday, February 25, 2019 at 9:33:24 AM UTC-5, Chris George wrote:
> >>
> >> I recently got interested in Racket.
> >>
> >> https://programbydesign.org/materials
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 5:54 AM john lunzer  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Thanks, I've read this before but I read it again. The quality of
> "power" as Dr. Graham describes it is only useful if it can be accessed.
> >> >
> >> > If you're a startup and your goal is to make a huge splash and
> obliterate your competitors, as he implies, then a nuclear powered
> programming language could help. If you work for a large company in a mixed
> discipline team with a large legacy of code then a nuclear powered language
> with less than upper tier readability is going to hold your team back long
> enough for your competitors to "crush" you. In my experience lisps struggle
> in the readability department.
> >> >
> >> > Maybe things are different now than they were in 2001. Perhaps lisps
> do have great power, but if 18 years has proven anything it's that the
> power of lisps is not accessible (and therefor has low utility) to the vast
> majority of those who program. On both the TIOBE and PYPL indexes there are
> no lisps in the top 20 and only a single functional language (scala, at 14
> on PYPL). Redmonk is more generous, which has scala at 12 and haskell at
> 19, but still has no lisps. To be clear I'm not making any judgement on the
> "goodness" of lisps or functional languages. I'm noting trends in an effort
> to show that choosing a programming language based only on "power" is not
> an intelligent choice.
> >> >
> >> > Readability and accessibility fuel my ability to program effectively,
> I have not felt the need for more power. My biggest needs as a professional
> engineer (who mostly programs all day) have been better tools, better
> organization, and better documentation. Perhaps that is how I ended up in
> the Leo community as those three things appear to be pillars of the
> community.
> >> >
> >> > On Monday, February 25, 2019 at 3:05:15 AM UTC-5, Matt Wilkie wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > --
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latex syntax coloring

[Josef]

latex syntax coloring colors only some common latex commands, for others 
only the first letter is colorized.
I realize, that coloring all possible latex commands is impossible, since 
one can define pretty much anything to be a command in latex,
but it would be relatively simple to cover anything starting with a 
backslash and ending before the first special or whitespace character.
That would cover most user-defined commands also, because it is all one can 
produce with \newcommand.

- Josef

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nodetags: cannot delete tag

[Josef]

Hi there,

I occasionally use the nodetags plugin. There is a button to add a tag to a 
node, but there is no button to delete it. 
The documentation tells me I can remove a tag by right-clicking on it, and 
a while ago this worked, but it does not work for me now:

Leo 5.8.1-b2 devel, build 20190213233241, Wed Feb 13 23:32:41 PST 2019
Git repo info: branch = devel, commit = 95afe636b5e8
Python 3.7.2, PyQt version 5.11.1
linux

- Josef

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Re: Pharo Chronicles: time for a break

[john lunzer]

As far as I know this is already possible 
. The author of Flexx, 
Almar Klein, seems to be devoting a fair amount of his free time to 
WebAssembly. Many (including Almar) see it as a good foundation for the 
future of programming languages.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 8:09:46 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> There is a clear path for Leo in the JS world. I've already prototyped Leo 
> in the browser. I hope Joe Orr is continuing to develop his vision. 
> Finally, WebAssembly  that will soon support 
> Python program in browsers.
>

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Pharo Chronicles: time for a break

[Edward K. Ream]

Yesterday's work on two @button scripts for Leo reminded me just how good 
Leo and Python are.  Further work on Pharo does not make sense.  This 
decision will surely disappoint some people.  This post explains this 
decision in detail.

*The overall goal*

In the first impressions post 
 I 
said, "There is *only one reason* why I am interested in Pharo, namely that 
it provides a "live" environment that can be changed without reloading."  
Imo, this goal is not worth pursuing.  In fact, I doubt that it could be 
done (safely) in any environment. Even if it could be done, the benefits 
would be small, or even non-existent:

1. Stability easily outweighs flexibility.  In Pharo its fairly easy to 
destroy a crucial member/message.

2. It's not clear what live update of Leo would mean. Does it mean 
recreating all (or some) windows?  If so, when?  Surely this can not be 
done automatically.

3. Leo already has live update features.  The file-in/out @button code is 
self contained. @buttons create commands, so after executing the file-in 
command, Ctrl-P (repeat-complex-command) recompiles and re-executes the 
code, instantaneously.  At all times my attention was on the code, not the 
process.

4. Leo's viewrendered pane can (or could) demonstrate live update of 
complex graphics, much like the Pharo demo.

*About Pharo*

Here are my impressions, admittedly as a newbie: 

Pharo is a good enough language, with advantages I have already described. 
However, it is not clearly superior to Python in any significant way.  The 
syntax is worse, the libraries are unlikely to be better, and the browsers 
are inferior to Leo and other Python IDE's. Pharo's windowing system is not 
likely better than Qt.

Both Pharo and Python are dynamic, lisp-like, languages. The differences 
between lisp, Pharo and Python are smallish.  My strong preference is for 
Python.  Imo, Python's syntax, data structures, generators and 
comprehensions are all clearly superior to both Pharo and lisp.

*About Leo in Pharo*

There are serious questions about how to make a Leonine browser. I've been 
aware of them from day one.  A way forward surely could be found, but it 
would take real invention.

Most importantly, there is no real incentive to do Leo in Pharo, nor to 
improve Pharo's browsers.  Doing so would be a large task, without any 
personal payoff.

*Competition among development environments*

Using Pharo is a high risk decision.  There is fierce competition between 
development environments. The JS world almost certainly gets the most 
attention.  Python, Jupyter and IPython are bigger, more important than 
Pharo.

There is a clear path for Leo in the JS world. I've already prototyped Leo 
in the browser. I hope Joe Orr is continuing to develop his vision. 
Finally, WebAssembly  that will soon support 
Python program in browsers.

*Summary*

@button is an excellent simulation of live code.

The goal of live coding Leo *itself *seems neither feasible nor desirable.

Evaluating Pharo has been fun and useful.  However, I personally see no 
advantages in using Pharo.

It's time to take a break from Pharo and examine other interesting projects.

As always, your comments are greatly appreciated.

Edward

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