Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 8:04 PM, Thomas Passin  wrote:

> It seems to me that many python-based systems could be run in a Leo
> process, which would give access to their internal APIs.  The challenge
> would be to get their input and output into Leo cells.
>
> For non-python systems, in some cases there could be a python wrapper that
> handles communication (i.e., the Leo Bridge could be wrapped to communicate
> with a node.js server, just as an example, though that goes in the opposite
> direction from what I am thinking of).
>
> To go this route, one challenge would be to abstract the new parts so that
> they can be adapted to new systems as easily as possible, without having to
> rewrite existing code (except of course for the adapters and wrappers).
>

​All this seems in line with my thinking, which is quite fuzzy at present.

Edward

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Thomas Passin]

It seems to me that many python-based systems could be run in a Leo 
process, which would give access to their internal APIs.  The challenge 
would be to get their input and output into Leo cells.  

For non-python systems, in some cases there could be a python wrapper that 
handles communication (i.e., the Leo Bridge could be wrapped to communicate 
with a node.js server, just as an example, though that goes in the opposite 
direction from what I am thinking of).

To go this route, one challenge would be to abstract the new parts so that 
they can be adapted to new systems as easily as possible, without having to 
rewrite existing code (except of course for the adapters and wrappers).

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 9:26:42 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 1:39:52 AM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> Indeed, standard Leo plugins could communicate with *external hosts* such 
> atom, vscode, jupyter notebooks, eclipse, jEdit, etc.  Let's call these Leo 
> python plugins *external gui plugins*. These Leo plugins would 
> communicate with *host plugins* in the external hosts.  Host plugins 
> could be written in javascript (atom, vscode) or java (Eclipse) or python 
> (jupyter).
>

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 9:01:59 AM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:

This video 
> 
>  
> is a very impressive overview of pycharm's features. Not sure every feature 
> of this video is available in the open source version, but apparently many 
> are:
>
>- Intelligent Editor 
>
>- Graphical Debugger 
>
>- Refactorings 
>
> 
>- Code Inspections 
>
>- Version Control Integration 
>
>
> These are way too good to miss!
>

And here's another list of features claimed to be in the open source 
version of pycharm:

   - Core Python language support 
   
   - Code Inspections 
   
   - Refactoring 
   

   - Local debugger 
   
   - Test runners 
   

 Edward

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 8:26:42 AM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:

Work will continue "forever" on improving the pure python version of Leo. 
>
This may include work on all the cool features we envy in atom! 
>

Or pycharm.  This video 

 
is a very impressive overview of pycharm's features. Not sure every feature 
of this video is available in the open source version, but apparently many 
are:

   - Intelligent Editor 
   
   - Graphical Debugger 
   
   - Refactorings 
   

   - Code Inspections 
   
   - Version Control Integration 
   

These are way too good to miss!

I'll investigate adding a Leo plugin to pycharm soon.  It might be possible 
to retain Leo's core within the pycharm world...

Edward

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 8:26:42 AM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:

external gui plugins *might* launch a hidden version of Leo:
>
> python launchLeo.py --gui=vscode
>

Oops.  I got this backwards.  *Host plugins* would launch a hidden version 
of Leo.

Edward

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 1:39:52 AM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:

I wrote my last post in the middle of the night.  It shows :-)

After getting more sleep, and discussing the issues with Rebecca, more has 
become clear. Here is what I think I know for sure:

*No forks, but...*

Leo's code base can't be allowed to fork, but *that's not a big constraint*.

Indeed, standard Leo plugins could communicate with *external hosts* such 
atom, vscode, jupyter notebooks, eclipse, jEdit, etc.  Let's call these Leo 
python plugins *external gui plugins*. These Leo plugins would communicate 
with *host plugins* in the external hosts.  Host plugins could be written 
in javascript (atom, vscode) or java (Eclipse) or python (jupyter).

*All *gui plugins, external or not, create two way communication between 
the gui plugin (the screen) and Leo's core.  That's what makes *any* gui 
plugin difficult. Lockouts are usually needed. User actions create events 
in Leo's core. Those events must be prevented from creating further actions 
in the gui.

External gui plugins will communicate with the host plugins to do the 
actual drawing. When opening a .leo file, the external gui plugin would 
send a *representation *of the entire outline to host plugin.  json or cson 
should suffice.

The leoBridge will not change.  Instead, external gui plugins *might* 
launch a hidden version of Leo:

python launchLeo.py --gui=vscode

Leo itself will remain *almost completely unchanged*. The console gui 
required about 10 benign new lines of code.  We should expect (require!) 
the same for any external gui plugin.

*What is Leo?*

- Vitalije asserts that @others is essential. I agree.

- The "no fork" rule means that Leo's core must remain unchanged.

- Python scripting access to Leo's code and data (c, g, p) is also 
essential.

Many people are leery even of python.  Forcing them to learn any variant of 
javascript is out of the question.  Support for any other scripting 
language would require shims.  We aren't going there.

*What do we want?*

- Not everyone will want to using an external program, no matter how glitzy.

- We must continue to improve the pure python version of Leo.

- The lure of web technology beckons.

- I'll continue to explore external hosts and their features.  An atom or 
vscode plugin may be next for me.

*Summary*

Plain Leo plugins (external gui plugins) should/must suffice to embed Leo 
in atom, vscode, eclipse or jupyter. They may be easier to do than Leo's 
console gui plugin!

Except for a few benign lines of code, Python's core will not change to 
support external gui plugins.

Leo's core, markup (@others, section references, directives) and python 
scripting are all part of Leo's essence.  They will not change.  And 
neither will any other essential part of Leo that I haven't mentioned ;-)

Work will continue "forever" on improving the pure python version of Leo.  
This may include work on all the cool features we envy in atom! This is 
challenging work, even with access to the eric and pycharm code bases.

I will continue to explore options, including looking for nifty external 
hosts.  I would also like to do one external gui plugin as a learning 
exercise.

Please keep your comments coming. Feel free to vote for the external gui 
plugin you most want to see.

Edward

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Edward K. Ream]

​
​​
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:

​> ​
Don't panic.  Note the word "might" in the title.

​The process of "living with what I wrote" has *increased* my doubts about
using atom or vscode.  See below.
​
​> Afaik, atom does everything it has *in common* with Leo significantly
better than Leo does.

​It might be true also of vscode.

But this does not mean that Leo itself (or Leo's users) would benefit from
hosting Leo on a javascript platform! The problem would be no-brainer if
there were an open source python platform of similar quality.

Hmm.  I just googled "open source python editor" and found this page
.  It mentions eric
, pycharm
 and Leo. True, some features of
pycharm are commercial , but
pycharm's commercial features seem much less important than its open source
features.

​> Atom has virtually everything, *except* those features that make Leo
what it is, namely scripting *in Python,* scripting API, clones, access to
outline data, @clean, etc. We might delegate everything else to atom ;-)
version of pycharm. I'm wondering why I never did this before!

​Or vscode, or eric, or pycharm.​

> The big question is, can Leo remain Leo when hosted on atom?

​Oh my. At last I see that embedding Leo in atom or vscode would *fork
Leo's code base*.  That's not going to happen while I am alive.

*Summary*

Embedding Leo in atom or vscode is out of the question.

Joe Orr's work is still valuable. It might be possible to use javascript
technologies from within Leo *as it is now*. We could consider arbitrarily
complex Leo plugins that would support Joe Orr's code, or atom or vscode.
The design of such plugins would make interesting thought experiments, at
the very least.

My new "next first step" will be to valuate eric and the *open source*
version of pycharm. I am eager to use the best features of each in Leo!

Let me repeat.  All conclusions are *still* provisional. Your comments have
been extremely valuable. Please keep them coming.

Edward

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 11:00 PM, Xavier G. Domingo (xgid) <
xgdomi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow, this is amazing! I had this exact same idea about two weeks ago, but
> for taking the best of Leo to VSCode instead of Atom!
>

​Many thanks, Xavier, for this.  I did not know anything about VSCode
before now.  I just installed it, and it feels much faster than atom.

I'll be studying VSCode, typescript and its ecosystem.​

​I imagine that plugins could be written in anything that ends up being js.

Edward

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)]

Regarding performance, VSCode is beating Atom by far according to Atom 
users themselves: https://github.com/atom/atom/issues/10188

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 2:00:47 AM UTC-3, Xavier G. Domingo 
(xgid) wrote:
>
> Wow, this is amazing! I had this exact same idea about two weeks ago, but 
> for taking the best of Leo to VSCode instead of Atom!
>
> I've recently re-discovered VSCode thanks to a plugin made by a colleague 
> at work and I'm nearly falling in love with it. Clean interface, quite fast 
> (you have to try the cross-file search capabilities, even with regular 
> expressions, and with results being updated "on the fly" along your file 
> edits) and with a rich and constantly improving extensibility API 
> . Oh, and it 
> also uses Shift-Ctrl-P to open the Command Palette!
>
> I'm just starting to know the good and the ugly of VSCode, but I've seen 
> some really good design decisions so far and a constant focus on improving 
> the overall performance and UX of the editor. Another plus for me is that 
> it's mainly written in TypeScript, quite better than "plain" javascript.
>
> So well, I just wanted to say that I find your proposal really appealing. 
> I would really love to have all Leo features in VSCode in the near future!
>
> Either Atom or VSCode, I agree they *might* be the future of Leo! These 
> are really exciting times.
>
> Yours, 
> Xavier
>
> On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 12:52:38 PM UTC-3, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>>
>> Don't panic.  Note the word "might" in the title.
>>
>> Before going further, please look at the Why Atom? 
>>  page. 
>> It would also be good to install atom 
>>  
>> and read Atom Basics 
>>  
>> page.  Make sure to try Shift-Ctrl-P :-)
>>
>> The atom editor deserves serious consideration as a "hosting platform" 
>> for Leo's technology, for at least the following reasons:
>>
>> - Afaik, atom does everything it has *in common* with Leo significantly 
>> better than Leo does.  That includes installing plugins and themes, 
>> managing the screen, search/replace, basic settings, minibuffer interface, 
>> syntax coloring, auto-completion, support for git, rendering markdown, 
>> IPython/Jupyter support, etc. Atom might win the "most cool features" award 
>> among all text editors and ide's.
>>
>> - Atom has superb docs, and is significantly easier for newbies to use 
>> than Leo.
>>
>> - Atom is "going places".  Atom has a large user base and many active 
>> devs. Atom boasts hundreds of plugins, including:
>>
>> hydrogen : Adds IPython-like 
>> features and was inspired by Light Table, with similar features. Another 
>> post will discuss how this might be adapted to form the basis of a Leo 
>> plugin for Atom. This apparently replaces the jupyter-notebook plugin.
>>
>> remote-edit : Supports browsing 
>> and editing remote files using FTP and SFTP.
>>
>> This page  
>> lists all atom plugins, sorted by most downloads.
>>
>> - Atom is a desktop App. From the Why Atom? 
>>  page:
>>
>> "Web browsers are great for browsing web pages, but writing code is a 
>> specialized activity that warrants dedicated tools. More importantly, the 
>> browser severely restricts access to the local system for security reasons, 
>> and for us, a text editor that couldn't write files or run local 
>> subprocesses was a non-starter."
>>
>> - Atom uses the *latest* version of the Chrome rendering engine.  From 
>> the Why Atom? 
>>  page:
>>
>> "Another great benefit [of Atom] is the guarantee that it's running on 
>> the newest version of Chromium. That means we can ignore issues like 
>> browser compatibility and polyfills. *We can use all the web's shiny 
>> features of tomorrow, today*."
>>
>> - Atom plays well with C++ (or Python): From the Why Atom? 
>>  page:
>>
>> "Interacting with native code is also really simple. For example, we 
>> wrote a wrapper around the Oniguruma regular expression engine for our 
>> TextMate grammar support. In a browser, that would have required adventures 
>> with NaCl or Esprima. Node integration made it easy."
>>
>> *Summary*
>>
>> Atom has virtually everything, *except* those features that make Leo 
>> what it is, namely scripting *in Python,* scripting API, clones, access 
>> to outline data, @clean, etc. We might delegate everything else to atom ;-)
>>
>> The big question is, can Leo remain Leo when hosted on atom?  I believe 
>> the answer is yes.  The hydro

Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)]

Wow, this is amazing! I had this exact same idea about two weeks ago, but 
for taking the best of Leo to VSCode instead of Atom!

I've recently re-discovered VSCode thanks to a plugin made by a colleague 
at work and I'm nearly falling in love with it. Clean interface, quite fast 
(you have to try the cross-file search capabilities, even with regular 
expressions, and with results being updated "on the fly" along your file 
edits) and with a rich and constantly improving extensibility API 
. Oh, and it also 
uses Shift-Ctrl-P to open the Command Palette!

I'm just starting to know the good and the ugly of VSCode, but I've seen 
some really good design decisions so far and a constant focus on improving 
the overall performance and UX of the editor. Another plus for me is that 
it's mainly written in TypeScript, quite better than "plain" javascript.

So well, I just wanted to say that I find your proposal really appealing. I 
would really love to have all Leo features in VSCode in the near future!

Either Atom or VSCode, I agree they *might* be the future of Leo! These are 
really exciting times.

Yours, 
Xavier

On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 12:52:38 PM UTC-3, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> Don't panic.  Note the word "might" in the title.
>
> Before going further, please look at the Why Atom? 
>  page. 
> It would also be good to install atom 
>  
> and read Atom Basics 
>  
> page.  Make sure to try Shift-Ctrl-P :-)
>
> The atom editor deserves serious consideration as a "hosting platform" for 
> Leo's technology, for at least the following reasons:
>
> - Afaik, atom does everything it has *in common* with Leo significantly 
> better than Leo does.  That includes installing plugins and themes, 
> managing the screen, search/replace, basic settings, minibuffer interface, 
> syntax coloring, auto-completion, support for git, rendering markdown, 
> IPython/Jupyter support, etc. Atom might win the "most cool features" award 
> among all text editors and ide's.
>
> - Atom has superb docs, and is significantly easier for newbies to use 
> than Leo.
>
> - Atom is "going places".  Atom has a large user base and many active 
> devs. Atom boasts hundreds of plugins, including:
>
> hydrogen : Adds IPython-like 
> features and was inspired by Light Table, with similar features. Another 
> post will discuss how this might be adapted to form the basis of a Leo 
> plugin for Atom. This apparently replaces the jupyter-notebook plugin.
>
> remote-edit : Supports browsing and 
> editing remote files using FTP and SFTP.
>
> This page  
> lists all atom plugins, sorted by most downloads.
>
> - Atom is a desktop App. From the Why Atom? 
>  page:
>
> "Web browsers are great for browsing web pages, but writing code is a 
> specialized activity that warrants dedicated tools. More importantly, the 
> browser severely restricts access to the local system for security reasons, 
> and for us, a text editor that couldn't write files or run local 
> subprocesses was a non-starter."
>
> - Atom uses the *latest* version of the Chrome rendering engine.  From 
> the Why Atom? 
>  page:
>
> "Another great benefit [of Atom] is the guarantee that it's running on the 
> newest version of Chromium. That means we can ignore issues like browser 
> compatibility and polyfills. *We can use all the web's shiny features of 
> tomorrow, today*."
>
> - Atom plays well with C++ (or Python): From the Why Atom? 
>  page:
>
> "Interacting with native code is also really simple. For example, we wrote 
> a wrapper around the Oniguruma regular expression engine for our TextMate 
> grammar support. In a browser, that would have required adventures with 
> NaCl or Esprima. Node integration made it easy."
>
> *Summary*
>
> Atom has virtually everything, *except* those features that make Leo what 
> it is, namely scripting *in Python,* scripting API, clones, access to 
> outline data, @clean, etc. We might delegate everything else to atom ;-)
>
> The big question is, can Leo remain Leo when hosted on atom?  I believe 
> the answer is yes.  The hydrogen  
> package hints at the way forward.  More details in another post or two.
>
> My next prototype will be an atom plugin, following this excellent 
> tutorial .
>
> All comments welcome.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Zoom.Quiet]

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 1:35 AM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:

> On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:17:52 AM UTC-6, Zoom.Quiet wrote:
>
> Thanks for these comments. It's good to know that Atom may not perfect.
> Hehe.
>
> > ... has a large user... <-- that is maybe hallucination ;-)
>
> Is there any reason you say this?
>
> > VSCode base same construct with Atom...
> > - open big file slow more and more
> > - crash by memory broken
>
> This page
> 
> shows how to find very slow plugins.
>
> > for now Chrome become corrupt quickly,
>
> Atom uses Chromium rendering, not Chrome itself.  Don't know if this makes
> a difference.
>

we know Chromium is the Chrome opensource version,
except some Google advertisement components, Chromium is same Chrome,
but Chromium is radical than Chrome,
Chromium is the beta version for Chrome,
Chromium user just as Chrome's duty tester.

in fact , the Chrom* fast core reason -> V8 engine, is swollen by node.js .

of course Chrom* code tree is the one of best opensorce browser project,
but Atom not browser,
Leo also not.


>
>
> Edward
>
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>



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KM keep growing environment culture which promoting organization learning!

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Miles Fidelman]

On 2/20/18 11:17 AM, Zoom.Quiet wrote:

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 11:52 PM, Edward K. Ream > wrote:


Don't panic.  Note the word "might" in the title.

Before going further, please look at the Why Atom?

page. It would also be good to install atom

and read Atom Basics

page.  Make sure to try Shift-Ctrl-P :-)

The atom editor deserves serious consideration as a "hosting
platform" for Leo's technology, for at least the following reasons:



And here I was hoping you meant Atom & AtomPub - 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom_(Web_standard)


Miles Fidelman

--
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In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:17:52 AM UTC-6, Zoom.Quiet wrote:

Thanks for these comments. It's good to know that Atom may not perfect.  
Hehe.

> ... has a large user... <-- that is maybe hallucination ;-)

Is there any reason you say this?

> VSCode base same construct with Atom...
> - open big file slow more and more
> - crash by memory broken

This page 

 
shows how to find very slow plugins.

> for now Chrome become corrupt quickly,

Atom uses Chromium rendering, not Chrome itself.  Don't know if this makes 
a difference.

Edward

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Re: Atom might be Leo's future

[Zoom.Quiet]

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 11:52 PM, Edward K. Ream 
wrote:

> Don't panic.  Note the word "might" in the title.
>
> Before going further, please look at the Why Atom?
>  page.
> It would also be good to install atom
> 
> and read Atom Basics
> 
> page.  Make sure to try Shift-Ctrl-P :-)
>
> The atom editor deserves serious consideration as a "hosting platform" for
> Leo's technology, for at least the following reasons:
>
> - Afaik, atom does everything it has *in common* with Leo significantly
> better than Leo does.  That includes installing plugins and themes,
> managing the screen, search/replace, basic settings, minibuffer interface,
> syntax coloring, auto-completion, support for git, rendering markdown,
> IPython/Jupyter support, etc. Atom might win the "most cool features" award
> among all text editors and ide's.
>
> - Atom has superb docs, and is significantly easier for newbies to use
> than Leo.
>
> - Atom is "going places".  Atom has a large user base and many active
> devs. Atom boasts hundreds of plugins, including:
>

... has a large user... <-- that is maybe hallucination ;-)
VSCode base same construct with Atom,
and now has same problems:
- open big file slow more and more
- crash by memory broken
- ...

in fact, most problem 's root just come from --> Chromium
Chromium/Chrome grasp the world marketplace,
now base quality, just base google's android and AD pv

for now Chrome become corrupt quickly,
in the true life, i main browser is always FireFox v56;
the important action in Safari,
only the gmail/facebook/youtube/... need anti-GFW action , in Chrome.



>
> hydrogen : Adds IPython-like
> features and was inspired by Light Table, with similar features. Another
> post will discuss how this might be adapted to form the basis of a Leo
> plugin for Atom. This apparently replaces the jupyter-notebook plugin.
>
> remote-edit : Supports browsing and
> editing remote files using FTP and SFTP.
>
> This page 
> lists all atom plugins, sorted by most downloads.
>
>
as same reason, like NPM grown so high-speed,
the Atom plugin grown high-speed,
but for the function, always not good enough than sublime text ecology...



> - Atom is a desktop App. From the Why Atom?
>  page:
>
> "Web browsers are great for browsing web pages, but writing code is a
> specialized activity that warrants dedicated tools. More importantly, the
> browser severely restricts access to the local system for security reasons,
> and for us, a text editor that couldn't write files or run local
> subprocesses was a non-starter."
>
> - Atom uses the *latest* version of the Chrome rendering engine.  From
> the Why Atom?
>  page:
>
> "Another great benefit [of Atom] is the guarantee that it's running on the
> newest version of Chromium. That means we can ignore issues like browser
> compatibility and polyfills. *We can use all the web's shiny features of
> tomorrow, today*."
>
> - Atom plays well with C++ (or Python): From the Why Atom?
>  page:
>
> "Interacting with native code is also really simple. For example, we wrote
> a wrapper around the Oniguruma regular expression engine for our TextMate
> grammar support. In a browser, that would have required adventures with
> NaCl or Esprima. Node integration made it easy."
>
> *Summary*
>
> Atom has virtually everything, *except* those features that make Leo what
> it is, namely scripting *in Python,* scripting API, clones, access to
> outline data, @clean, etc. We might delegate everything else to atom ;-)
>
>
agree, hosting base Atom, is better than re-build Leo's core by rust


> The big question is, can Leo remain Leo when hosted on atom?  I believe
> the answer is yes.  The hydrogen 
> package hints at the way forward.  More details in another post or two.
>
> My next prototype will be an atom plugin, following this excellent
> tutorial .
>
>
Yes, as NPM tutorial, node.js 's all kinds of tutorial is beauty than
python's,
but that is can not fixed the JS nature problems with burn.


> All comments welcome.
>
> Edward
>
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