[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

--- Comment #81 from regs  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #79)
> Possibly useful here: an overview of the sizes in Writer:
> https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/219198/writer-relationship-between-
> page-margins-and-other-typographic-elements/

That is a a wrong approach that needs to be fixed. Writer will never be a whole
Word competitor and replacement until that. Body margins are defined by local
standards and Writer interfere and breaking them, making it unusable.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

URL||https://ask.libreoffice.org
   ||/t/writer-relationship-betw
   ||een-page-margins-and-other-
   ||typographic-elements/47015/
   ||4
 CC||vsfo...@libreoffice.org

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #80 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #79)
> Possibly useful here: an overview of the sizes in Writer:
> https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/219198/writer-relationship-between-
> page-margins-and-other-typographic-elements/

Awesome! Please put it into the online help or at the wiki. Reminds me on bug
103683 that could be incorporated in such illustration.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #79 from Mike Kaganski  ---
Possibly useful here: an overview of the sizes in Writer:
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/219198/writer-relationship-between-page-margins-and-other-typographic-elements/

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #78 from Timur  ---
It would be nice if someone would make an overview document of header/footer
margins in all major suites (with screenshots), pointing to all arguments from
this bug.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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Manuel Toledo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Severity|minor   |enhancement

--- Comment #77 from Manuel Toledo  ---
I do not understand why these has continued for so long without a solution, is
it really that difficult to create a button that sets the margins as how it is
asked practically everywhere?
The standards will simply not change because a few Open Source paladins
complain, if Libre Office wants to be a viable alternative to other Office
Suites it should adapt to them, or at least give their users an easy way to do
so.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

Martin Sourada  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||martin.sour...@gmail.com

--- Comment #76 from Martin Sourada  ---
Just my two cents, as this hits me every time I teach students how to style
pages. So I'd plead for reconsidering this feature request.

1. I understand that the page margins in LO are counted similar as if they were
print margins. The math is easy to follow and fairly easy to understand.

2. I can do the math to make it behave right (it's really easy, unless you need
multiline content).

3. If I'd take something as a standard (or maybe better wording would be
reference implementation/behaviour) it would definitely not be Word, but
(La)TeX -- and well, in (La)TeX, page margins are all the way to text body,
i.e. header/footer is inside the margins (add
\usepackage[left=2cm,right=2cm,top=2cm,bottom=2cm]{geometry} to preamble and
see the result).

4. For most usecases (all *my* usecases) this could be solved by:

 a) enabling Dynamic spacing by default (companion to autofit height)

 b) automatically recounting margin when header/footer gets inserted/changed,
the math is easy, so it shouldn't be hard to implement (even if you add rules,
pt can be converted to cm/in as needed), there could even be a tick somewhere
to enable/disable this behaviour (probably in Writer settings, as one user
would want it to behave same for all his documents).

 c) *or* enabling (empty) header/footer with reasonable margin + header/footer
height/spacing settings by default on basic page styles (i.e. no unexpected
change to text body when adding header/footer, because you would actually only
add content to it)

5. Somewhat harder would probably be growing header (upwards -- in UI I would
expect a tick (probably radiobutton) called Dynamic margin that would also
untick Dynamic spacing and vice versa), not sure though if that would comply
with ODT standards...

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

--- Comment #75 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #74)
> If it helps, I'm not at all against extending the information in the dialog
> Page Style, tab Footer and Header to show/mention that distance too, of
> course.
Maybe one of the people here that really need more info, more than what already
is shown in the UI, can make a good proposal for the widgets on that tabs
Header/Footer of the page style, and describe the desired behavior?
If so, please create a new issue for an enhancement, and mention the number
here.
Thanks :)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #74 from Cor Nouws  ---
Created attachment 149365
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=149365=edit
Distance Header To Page Margin Is Shown On Ruler In Writer

But let me add one more comment...

(In reply to regs from comment #68)
> Sitting and calculating paddings, line spacings and line heights is not
> really an option for an average user.
I do user support regularly in various roles and situations for
OpenOffice/LibreOffice since 2004. Don't remember I ever had one complaining
user who was unable to handle it.

(In reply to regs from comment #66)
> I'm talking about documentation standards, not about file format standards.
> Our GOST have different standards for different type of documents. Standard
> document is having 1 cm margin from both top and bottom. 1 mm off the
> standard and document is invalid. But it is just impossible to maintain
> margins with Writer.
Are you sure you really tried how LibreOffice supports the users?
The attachment shows that the metrics are there right in your face on the
ruler.

If it helps, I'm not at all against extending the information in the dialog
Page Style, tab Footer and Header to show/mention that distance too, of course.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #73 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Timur from comment #72)
> Such a long-standing issue with many interested users should be either kept
> open  or closed only with proper explanation that would help avoid
> discussion (which wasn't done here).
To me that looks as an underestimation of the hours that I've spent in this
issue; testing, explaining, examples :)

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Timur  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org

--- Comment #72 from Timur  ---
Such a long-standing issue with many interested users should be either kept
open  or closed only with proper explanation that would help avoid discussion
(which wasn't done here).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #71 from Wolfgang Jäger  ---
We shouldn't operate with terms like "ridiculous" here. This in specific not if
we didn't take te time to read the complete discussion. For my part I will
forbear to tell you what I find ridiculous regarding this topic. 

For participants interested in a kind of workaround: 
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/137961/header-and-footer-needed-outside-the-page-margin/
 

I posted a raw piece of user code there. You can refine/enhance it to your
needs.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #70 from Zsolt  ---
(In reply to regs from comment #68)
> Sitting and calculating paddings, line spacings and line heights is not
> really an option for an average user.

True. Is that still the same as when I reported the problem?

It's ridiculous that I essentially have to trial and error by hand how much the
height changes and compensate by if I add a horizontal line, or whatever.

It wouldn't matter much if the height was consistent. It'd be still a nuisance
though to have to subtract from the margin by hand.

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--- Comment #69 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to regs from comment #68)

Your argumentation is totally irrelevant (off-topic) here. You don't talk about
"standards compliance", although claim to do so; what you are talking about is
how easy it is for an abstract "average user" to create a setup suitable for a
given (national) documentation standard. And that problem is orthogonal to what
is discussed here, because for a given (national) documentation standard, it's
enough for a official body to prepare suitable templates. That's what usually
done by multiple bodies (often only for Word; but that doesn't change the idea:
the documentation standards are really often make it difficult for an "average
user" to create a compliant document using *any* suite, and the bodies have to
provide pre-made templates to make users' lives easier). In some specific
cases, some template may happen to be easier for someone to create using one
software than the other... but please don't continue this unrelated discussion
here.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #68 from regs  ---
Sitting and calculating paddings, line spacings and line heights is not really
an option for an average user.

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--- Comment #67 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to regs from comment #66)

While being a sysadmin, and then a MEP engineer at my former place (a project
institute), I successfully created GOST-compliant (СПДС/ЕСКД) documents all the
time (since 2007 iirc) when we used OOo/LO exclusively ;-)

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--- Comment #66 from regs  ---
I'm talking about documentation standards, not about file format standards. Our
GOST have different standards for different type of documents. Standard
document is having 1 cm margin from both top and bottom. 1 mm off the standard
and document is invalid. But it is just impossible to maintain margins with
Writer.

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--- Comment #65 from Wolfgang Jäger  ---
(In reply to regs from comment #58)
> Why marking not a bug, when all necessary info was provided?
Nobody claimed a lack of information (as far as I can see).

(In reply to regs from comment #59)
> 6. Content moves down, but should keep staying at 1 cm per standard.
Nobody missed reproducibility. Just your statement under "6." is not accepted
by everybody. (Myself among those who reject it.) 

(In reply to regs from comment #62)
> But, it's not about opinions. It's about noncompliance to standards. Where all
> other office applications doing it the right way and libre doing it the wrong
> way.
It' s not about opinions? You definitely know what's right and what's wrong?

What standards are you talking of? Who (what institution) approved them?

In what way did you refute my hint concerning a text-body-margin not wide
enough to take a header and its distance from the body? How to handle this
case? As MS Word does? I don't know how it does. 

If "all the other office applications" should be entitled to define their
"as-is" standards to also obligate LibO (and its complete family!) I would need
to learn anew what a standard should be. 

Changing the behaviour of LibreOffice Writer in a way trying to "fix this bug"
would also cause incompatibilities with Apache OpenOffice and othe descendants
from the common roots.

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--- Comment #64 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Wolfgang Jäger from comment #63)
> > 2. I don't understand what is your *position* that you give a rationale
> > below ("it does not look FUNNY" ... "I would NOT judge it to be "LOGICAL"
> > confuses me).
> > 
> That's hard to understand for me.

:-) Oh, it's always a problem when two non-native-English speakers try to
express themselves to each other ;-) so I'm also sorry for being stupid there.
What I wanted to express is that I didn't understand your position: slightly
simplifying, your words "it does not look FUNNY" seemed somewhat defending
those who want to change the status quo, while "I would NOT judge it to be
"LOGICAL"" seemed to be against that request. So I wanted to understand what
your actual position was.

Wrt the last part: I believe that the discussion here is mainly about the
initial act of inserting headers/footers, as opposed to later modification of
its contents (and subsequent change of page body space). These two, being of
course connected, are not necessarily have the same psychological expectations.
E.g., user could expect page body height to remain unchanged when inserting a
default (=1-line) header, when margins are quite large; but it's not true that
users would (have reasons to) expect page body to remain intact when they
expand header arbitrarily, possibly exceeding remaining margin height.

I don't want to say that fixing one aspect of multiple possible issues here is
a universally satisfying solution; just that it would cover the most prominent
source of misunderstanding. Here I don't tell about changing ODF or something,
just about creating a UI to allow the one-time insertion operation to
optionally simultaneously decrease margins to keep page body size.

Some people here even keep thinking that they are talking about "conformance to
standards", without understanding that there's no universal standards here, and
e.g. current implementation strictly conforms to ISO ODF standard, which was by
the way created with Microsoft participation in the OASIS committee :-).

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--- Comment #63 from Wolfgang Jäger  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #56)
> (In reply to Wolfgang Jäger from comment #55)
> > I am NOT coming from MS Word. Nonetheless the mentioned expectation doesn't
> > look "just funny" to me. However, I would NOT judge it to be "LOGICAL". 
> > 
> > Reasons:
> > To get it consistent under the given rationale (unchanged content of the
> > page's textbody area) the changed behaviour to insert a newly enabled header
> > and additionally the height of space (distance from text body) into the area
> > previously forming the visible margin WOULD REQUIRE to also shift the top of
> > the header's area uppwards if an additional line or paragraph was inserted
> > or the fontsize of the header was increased and 'AutoFit height' was
> > enabled. 
> > 
> > The change would also require to specify the substituting behaviour in a way
> > "expected out of habit or {seeming} logical" for the case that the margin
> > not is high enough to take the insertion. 
> > 
> > (Of course, we need at the same time to regard the footers.)
This is still my opinion. I judge it to be well considered, and -at least- not
just arguing for "the wrong way" as some contributors here seem to see it. How
any other application does it or will do it 10 years from now isn't on my
screen.
> 
> Oh, I wrote that, and I still have questions.
> 
> 1. Do you suppose that I meant something "funny" when wrote problem 4? It's
> unclear to me from your text. Do you suppose that what I wrote to have the
> largest impact to be dismissible?
No. My words "not just funny" were expected to be understood as "deserving
serious considerations". I never read anything posted by you that looked
"funny" to me. Sorry for my poor English! Extremely sorry for any
misunderstanding induced by my "funny wording"!
> 
> 2. I don't understand what is your *position* that you give a rationale
> below ("it does not look FUNNY" ... "I would NOT judge it to be "LOGICAL"
> confuses me).
> 
That's hard to understand for me.
> 3. And the last thing: the given rationale absolutizes the approach; while
> e.g. Word also may decrease page body if headers/footers grow; it's just the
> first moment of insertion that actually has the psychological expectation
> that isn't met in Writer. So we may actually do that without changing also
> the process of growth of headers.
The fundamental distinction between the original insertion of a header/footer
and its later changes in height with respect to the interpretation of the term
"margin" basically under discussion here (imo), I cannot accept under my
understanding of what's logical. Also with this respect I won't figure the
warrior, of course. Even inside mathematiocs it's disputed what's a proof, now
and then.

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--- Comment #59 from regs  ---
Full steps to reproduce.

1. Open Writer.
2. Type something.
3. Open page setup settings.
4. Set page margins to, say 1 cm for every side.
5. Now try to add header.
6. Content moves down, but should keep staying at 1 cm per standard.

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--- Comment #58 from regs  ---
Why marking not a bug, when all necessary info was provided?

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--- Comment #62 from regs  ---
But, it's not about opinions. It's about noncompliance to standards. Where all
other office applications doing it the right way and libre doing it the wrong
way.

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--- Comment #60 from regs  ---
> And imagine margins set for printing purposes - if needed for anything, it's
> needed for that, not for what you do on the screen.
Exactly what this bug is about. If you add "header" all your content moves
away. So if you needed for that, it's gone. So margins do not serve purpose.

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--- Comment #61 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to regs from comment #58)
> Why marking not a bug, when all necessary info was provided?
You were so kind to give info on your opinion.
I understand that there are situations where this causes you extra work, which
is not nice.
On the other hand there are the situations where the current behavior is just
great logic.
So it won't surprise you that in fact there opinions and ideas regularly that
are not reflected in the software. I'm sorry for you that in this case it is
not on your side.

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Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |NOTABUG

--- Comment #57 from Cor Nouws  ---
Hi Mike,
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #54)
> 4. Habit/least surprise principle problem: when users decide to add a
> header/footer to a document with content, users expect (out of habit, or
> because it just seems logical) that the pages will keep their current
> content, and the added headers/footers would not reduce the page body area.
Might be me, but I can't remember ever having been surprised by the fact that
adding header/footers would cause repagination.

Moreover, the rather vocal expressions of different ideas are not at all
convincing. It is behavior that you see right there in front of you. Easy to
adjust - if needed.
And imagine margins set for printing purposes - if needed for anything, it's
needed for that, not for what you do on the screen.

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--- Comment #56 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Wolfgang Jäger from comment #55)
> I am NOT coming from MS Word. Nonetheless the mentioned expectation doesn't
> look "just funny" to me. However, I would NOT judge it to be "LOGICAL". 
> 
> Reasons:
> To get it consistent under the given rationale (unchanged content of the
> page's textbody area) the changed behaviour to insert a newly enabled header
> and additionally the height of space (distance from text body) into the area
> previously forming the visible margin WOULD REQUIRE to also shift the top of
> the header's area uppwards if an additional line or paragraph was inserted
> or the fontsize of the header was increased and 'AutoFit height' was
> enabled. 
> 
> The change would also require to specify the substituting behaviour in a way
> "expected out of habit or {seeming} logical" for the case that the margin
> not is high enough to take the insertion. 
> 
> (Of course, we need at the same time to regard thze footers.)

Oh, I wrote that, and I still have questions.

1. Do you suppose that I meant something "funny" when wrote problem 4? It's
unclear to me from your text. Do you suppose that what I wrote to have the
largest impact to be dismissible?

2. I don't understand what is your *position* that you give a rationale below
("it does not look FUNNY" ... "I would NOT judge it to be "LOGICAL" confuses
me).

3. And the last thing: the given rationale absolutizes the approach; while e.g.
Word also may decrease page body if headers/footers grow; it's just the first
moment of insertion that actually has the psychological expectation that isn't
met in Writer. So we may actually do that without changing also the process of
growth of headers.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #55 from Wolfgang Jäger  ---
>From Comment #54:

"4. Habit/least surprise principle problem: when users decide to add a
header/footer to a document with content, users expect (out of habit, or
because it just seems logical) that the pages will keep their current content,
and the added headers/footers would not reduce the page body area."

I am NOT coming from MS Word. Nonetheless the mentioned expectation doesn't
look "just funny" to me. However, I would NOT judge it to be "LOGICAL". 

Reasons:
To get it consistent under the given rationale (unchanged content of the page's
textbody area) the changed behaviour to insert a newly enabled header and
additionally the height of space (distance from text body) into the area
previously forming the visible margin WOULD REQUIRE to also shift the top of
the header's area uppwards if an additional line or paragraph was inserted or
the fontsize of the header was increased and 'AutoFit height' was enabled. 

The change would also require to specify the substituting behaviour in a way
"expected out of habit or {seeming} logical" for the case that the margin not
is high enough to take the insertion. 

(Of course, we need at the same time to regard thze footers.)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

--- Comment #54 from Mike Kaganski  ---
The issues here:

1. Terminological (and coordinate system) problem: what Writer calls "margin"
is not what Word calls "margin"; the latter uses that term for what is margins
+ headings (roughly) in Writer. this is also ...

2. Computational problem: when I mentioned "roughly", I e.g. didn't consider
borders width; and the latter is usually expressed in different units compared
to the rest; so it's not easy to calculate the correct elements sizes to get
exactly what is expressed in the other coordinate system, even when one
understands the idea.

3. Missing functionality problem: although it's true that Writer system can do
things Word can't (easily), the opposite is also true: e.g., in Writer, it's
difficult to make headers to grow from page body upwards, i.e. when it's
single-line, it starts just as close to page body as when it's 3 lines high.

4. Habit/least surprise principle problem: when users decide to add a
header/footer to a document with content, users expect (out of habit, or
because it just seems logical) that the pages will keep their current content,
and the added headers/footers would not reduce the page body area.

5. Formatting problem: see comment 46.

Those are actually mostly *different* problems; and the problem 4, which has
possibly the largest impact, is likely the easiest to fix just by making the
algorithm adding header/footer to recalculate margins (as final part of comment
45 suggests). That would partly address also problem 2, which might be further
addressed e.g. by the complex "page layout" dialog, which would allow the two
coordinates variants simultaneously, and do all the recalculations itself.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

--- Comment #53 from regs  ---
Full steps to reproduce.

1. Open Writer.
2. Type something.
3. Open page setup settings.
4. Set page margins to, say 1 cm for every side.
5. Now try to add header.
6. Content moves down, but should keep staying at 1 cm per standard.

It's not about acting different, it's about acting wrong, disrespecting
different documentation standards all around the world.

MS Office and all other alternatives do it right way.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

Luke  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|REOPENED|NEEDINFO

--- Comment #52 from Luke  ---
Per QA guidelines and Comment 16, do NOT set status to REOPENED. This is a
developer only tag.

This issue should be closed unless we can get clear, step-by-step instruction
to reproduce the issue. 

Writer behaving differently than Word is NOT a bug and there is no import or
export issue here. If you want to change the behavior of Writer, please give
step-by-step instructions with expected behavior and current behavior. This
would be an enhancement request. 

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugReport#Good_Reports

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

regs  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Resolution|WORKSFORME  |---
 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED

--- Comment #51 from regs  ---
6.1.1.2 NOT FIXED!

When i set page top margin to 1 cm, then add a header, top margin gets ignored.
All content moves down. Header is always located within content margin, but
shouldn't.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Resolution|--- |WORKSFORME
 Status|NEW |RESOLVED

--- Comment #50 from Cor Nouws  ---
comment #44 and comment #47 show there is no interoperability issue.

So I close this issue as WFM.

If people have suggestions on how to help users for the apparently sometimes
occurring confusion, please do file an issue for that. And be so kind to refer
to this one.
Thanks,
Cor

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

Christian Pietzsch  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||christian.pietz...@gmail.co
   ||m

--- Comment #49 from Christian Pietzsch  ---
I stumbled across the same issue when I was  writing my diploma thesis.
Oftentimes its required bz universities to have a certain margin between border
and body text with the header and footer not defined.
A check mark option to include headers into the margin or not would help fix
this problem. (I know its not as easy as that sounds)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
   ||5944

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

--- Comment #48 from Bastián Díaz  ---
A problem related to what is discussed here is that mentioned in Bug 111325.
Because a header is added when inserting a watermark, the space of the text
body decreases slightly, but it can have consequences in the design layout.

I think that by default LO should insert headers/footers in the margins,
however, allowing the user to choose to insert the headers/footers in the
margins or as part of the text body would give more control of the document
layout.

Cheers

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #47 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #45)

> I see no interoperability problem. LibreOffice changes the settings on
> import and export from and to docx to get the same page design as in Word.
> And the other way round, Word does the same when getting an odt-file.

yep..

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Timur  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87
   ||902

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||thomas.le...@gmail.com

--- Comment #46 from Thomas Lendo  ---
Created attachment 133853
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133853=edit
Screenshot of Footer at page with yellow background color

I agree to the idea that header/footer should not be part of text body. One
reason is that the page background filling should not (always) be extended to
the header and footer and to the space between header/footer and content area.
See attached showing the yellow page background filling and showing the footer
area surrounded by red color.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks|44941   |


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44941
[Bug 44941] UI: Double click in the header/footer area should create new
header/footer if not existent
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

--- Comment #45 from Regina Henschel  ---
I think, that some of the comments confuse page design with the technical means
to get this design. In Word you set the distance between text block and edge
and the distance between header and edge, the header height is calculated. In
LibreOffice you set the distance between header and edge and the header height,
and the distance between text block and edge is calculated. But that are only
technical differences for making a page design with margin, header and text
block. It is simple math to convert one setting to the other.

I see no interoperability problem. LibreOffice changes the settings on import
and export from and to docx to get the same page design as in Word. And the
other way round, Word does the same when getting an odt-file.



(In reply to Joel Madero from comment #38)
If a student is not sure, that the reviewer can distinguish between page design
and technical settings, the student should ask for a document template, or the
student makes a dummy document with LibreOffice and shows it to the reviewer. 




(In reply to regs from comment #40)
> Some standards around the world specifies exact margin between edges and
> text body, while headers and footers have own rules. 1 mm of the standard
> makes document invalid. Even adding page number would break margins making
> document invalid.

That can be achieved by setting fixed header height in LibreOffice.



(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #43)
ODF uses the common block element model of margin-border-padding-content as
used in XSL and CSS. In my understanding of the typographical terms, the
"content" is that, what is named "type area" in typography, but I might be
wrong. A running head is inside the type area.



Ideally users first design their "master pages" aka page styles and fill the
document with content afterwards. But reality is different. Users add a header
after they had written the content, and their tweaked page breaks will be
disturbed.
For the cases, where a user uses the menu item "Header and Footer" and does not
make the settings directly in the page style, I can think of a dialog, where
the user is asked, whether the header should be placed into the area of the
former margin, or whether the page text area should be reduced to get room for
the header below the margin. That would only require a new dialog for
calculating the needed settings, but no further changes in the code.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

Aron Budea  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99
   ||639

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

--- Comment #44 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #43)
> This is an interoperability issue, so not something UX should have to deal
> with. I would assume this an issue of LO focused on the ODF's view of how
> headers/footers are done and this doesnt translate correctly when opening in
> MSO.

Tests in both this issue and duplicate (..) 99639 show that this assumption is
not correct. In any case not in the circumstances from these tests.

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[bugzilla-daemon]

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Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |rb.hensc...@t-online.de
   |.freedesktop.org|

--- Comment #43 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
This is an interoperability issue, so not something UX should have to deal
with. I would assume this an issue of LO focused on the ODF's view of how
headers/footers are done and this doesnt translate correctly when opening in
MSO.

@Regina: any thoughts?

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Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||jmadero@gmail.com

--- Comment #42 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
*** Bug 99639 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

--- Comment #41 from ajlittoz  ---
Document processor developers are free to define the "coordinate system" for
header/footer relative to text body or page margins. BUT, this convention
should be clear so that users can appropriately design their page lay-out.

It becomes crucial in thes current context of document exchange between
platforms (with different fonts, therefore change in character sizes, width and
height), locales and text processing applications.

When the conventions for body/header/footer is known and defined, the
conversion modules should recompute the placement of these areas in the target
"coordinate system".

Some may object that OASIS (or other coordinating body) did not foresee the
problem and that the ODF does not contain elements to cope with this issue.
This a very serious shortcoming impeding "safe" document exchange.

Independently from visual fidelity to author intent, it is not acceptable to
confer a standard role to a commercial proprietary application (even if it is
the predominant one in the world) since its specifications may change without
notice in unexpected areas and because some people made the deliberate choice
not to use it. Also, the abrupt change of layout cause by this bug can have an
economic impact: if total number of pages increases, this may mean another
section (don't know if it the right word: a new large sheet folded into a 16-,
32- or 64-page section) to add to a printed book, i.e. more money to spend to
manufacture the book. If the nuber decreases, we are faced with a non-optimal
use of paper.

IMHO, this a very serious bug which should be addressed quickly because it
threatens the position of LO as a challenger of ubiquitous M$O and prevents
presently a full replacement of said M$O by LO.

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regs  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||coth...@gmail.com

--- Comment #40 from regs  ---
I'll add explanation why is it so important. 

Some standards around the world specifies exact margin between edges and text
body, while headers and footers have own rules. 1 mm of the standard makes
document invalid. Even adding page number would break margins making document
invalid.

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Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||philip...@hotmail.com
 Blocks||88173


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88173
[Bug 88173] [Meta] Tracking bug for limitations of DOCX (OOXML) format
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--- Comment #39 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Joel Madero from comment #37)
> 
> That's simply not true. Bug 99639 was reproduced and explained by Aron. The
> issue is that when in Word, if you set the margins to the *required*
> settings per professional specifications, the document becomes 0.75 pages
> shorter.

Are you sure you're not mixing issues Joel?
I've added a extra comment in
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99639#c14

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Joel Madero  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval

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--- Comment #38 from Joel Madero  ---

> If this issue is not a bug, I don't know what is

Just one more clarification here. So my point is that if I did not have Word, I
would have just submitted the document *as is*. One of two situations would
have happened:

1) The reviewer would have checked the margins and seen 1.39" around and
*refused to read the content*, resulting in a VERY bad situation;

2) The reviewer would have seen 1.39" on top and bottom, changed these to 1" on
top and bottom (as the professional standards *required*) and would have seen
that I was nearly 10% short of the page limit. Then the reviewer undoubtedly
would have noticed some issues that I could have written about and been upset
that I left 10% of the page limit unwritten.

If the idea is "LibreOffice can kind of work for you if you have MS Office to
verify that professional standards are being applied" then sure, this works. I
can always open a document in Word to double check that my document is being
treated identically in Word and Writer. It's a PITA and I'm personally unlikely
to do it (why wouldn't I just use Word to begin with?)

If the idea is that LibreOffice can *replace* Microsoft Office and at least in
many basic situations (a writer document with a single type face, one size
font, that has footers and headers IMHO meets this) a user *need not fear* that
a Word user would observe something inconsistent with LibreOffice - then
LibreOffice is falling short of this goal.

I'm not dictating that someone fix it (of course a volunteer would have to opt
to do that), I'm just growing increasingly frustrated that I'm getting push
back that this is a bug.

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--- Comment #37 from Joel Madero  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #36)
> (In reply to Joel Madero from comment #32)
> 
> > This bug almost caused me a tremendous amount of pain. The fact that we're
> > still arguing over whether it is a bug or not baffles me.
> 
> Bug 99639 could not be reproduced and someone closed as WorksForMe..

That's simply not true. Bug 99639 was reproduced and explained by Aron. The
issue is that when in Word, if you set the margins to the *required* settings
per professional specifications, the document becomes 0.75 pages shorter.

To repro:
1. Open the document in Word;
2. Open the page margins dialog

Observed: Despite Writer saying it's 1" around each side, Word (which dictates
the professional standard in this case) shows 1.39" on top and bottom

3. Set the margins to the *specified* margin (1" all the way around)

Observed: The document is now 0.75 pages short of the limit which cuts out
substantial space (nearly 10%). This is *only* visible if the person writing
the document has Word to actually check. So if the idea is LibreOffice can
replace Word entirely and a user can avoid having to double check work in Word
- the is not present.

If this issue is not a bug, I don't know what is

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #36 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Joel Madero from comment #32)

> This bug almost caused me a tremendous amount of pain. The fact that we're
> still arguing over whether it is a bug or not baffles me.

Bug 99639 could not be reproduced and someone closed as WorksForMe..

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--- Comment #35 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Joel Madero from comment #34)

> If you have an assignment (court assignment, thesis, dissertation, school
> final, etc...) that has specific requirements that say 1" margins all the
> way around with a max page limit (let's just say 10 pages). You write the
> entire thing in LibreOffice and you see that you've hit your max limit and
> margins are 1" as needed.

If you just set 2.5 margin in Word, you have the same result as when you just
set 2.5 margin in Writer.
When header/footers are involved, you need to follow the design, that should
mention header/footers height and distance. The only thing that differs is
where/how you set them in Writer and in Word.

I think this is a good topic for the most useful stuff to know when switching
from Word to Writer.

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--- Comment #34 from Joel Madero  ---
> 
> Are we sure that this is the case? Normally the margins are just exported
> fine. Measured/set different, but the visual result is the same.
> Or are there reproducible cases that I miss?

One more annoying rant here (sorry but this really almost cost me big and I
want to be crystal clear in my explanation as to why it is in fact a serious
bug).

If you have an assignment (court assignment, thesis, dissertation, school
final, etc...) that has specific requirements that say 1" margins all the way
around with a max page limit (let's just say 10 pages). You write the entire
thing in LibreOffice and you see that you've hit your max limit and margins are
1" as needed.

The *best case* scenario is that the end reviewer opens the document and does
not check the margins in Microsoft Office. This way it *artificially* looks
like you've met the requirements that they have given. BUT even in this case
what has actually happened is that you're about 0.75 pages short, so you've
been lead to believe that you're at the page limit and thus can't add
additional *critical information* when in fact you haven't. To verify this, in
Microsoft Office just set the margins to 1" (as the instructions *required*)
and you'll notice that now the 10 page document is 9.25 pages. So if you had
followed the instructions *exactly* (using the standards that every
professional institution expects) you would have been allowed to write almost
10% more content - in my case, critical content, that I thought I just didn't
have the space to include.

The *worst* case scenario is that the reviewer quickly checks the margins in
Microsoft Office, sees that you failed to follow instructions, and refuses to
read the content. 

This is all confirmed, by multiple people.

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--- Comment #33 from Joel Madero  ---
> 
> That problem has not been confirmed. We do not know what went wrong there.
> I will attach two documents:
>  - new DOCX document from Word with (default) margins
>  - new DOCX from Writer with (default) margins
> Both appear the same in Word and in Writer.

Please just check the document in my dupe. In writer it shows 1" all the way
around, in both MSO 2010 and 2013 it shows a custom margin with 1" on left and
right, 1.39" on top and bottom. It's pretty straight forward to confirm (I just
did it on 3 machines).

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--- Comment #32 from Joel Madero  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #31)
> So as far as I understand this, what changing the current behaviour would
> do, is change the way a user sets the page/header/footer properties, cause a
> lot of work, probably bugs in unexpected areas (since all code works
> together).
> When user workflow can be improved, clarified: fine.
> When specific files are rendered wrong: improving the import of those is
> important too.

I encountered this problem after writing an incredibly important assignment
that had a 10 page max limit. I wrote the entire thing in LibreOffice and I was
at 1 line under 10 pages. I Saved as a docx and booted into Windows to verify
that the document looked okay (it literally was only a single size font, one
type face, with some italics and bold) so I made the horrible assumption of
assuming that things would be fine. 

I booted into Windows, opened the document in 2010, and checked the margins in
MSO. The margins no longer showed 1" which was the *requirement*, instead they
showed 1.39" on top and bottom which was a huge problem. This was a time
sensitive assignment that had to be turned in as a digital file with incredibly
specific instructions (simple but specific) so the person who was reading it
would *likely* open the document and immediately check the margins - only to
see 1.39" on top and bottom.

This bug almost caused me a tremendous amount of pain. The fact that we're
still arguing over whether it is a bug or not baffles me.

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Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Severity|normal  |minor

--- Comment #31 from Cor Nouws  ---
So as far as I understand this, what changing the current behaviour would do,
is change the way a user sets the page/header/footer properties, cause a lot of
work, probably bugs in unexpected areas (since all code works together).
When user workflow can be improved, clarified: fine.
When specific files are rendered wrong: improving the import of those is
important too.

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--- Comment #30 from Cor Nouws  ---
Created attachment 125085
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=125085=edit
new docx from Writer with default page margins

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--- Comment #29 from Cor Nouws  ---
Created attachment 125084
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=125084=edit
new Word doc with default page settings

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--- Comment #28 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Aron Budea from comment #26)

> If your document has to conform to given parameters (incl. margins), those
> parameters will be given based on Word's behavior, because that's what is
> used widely. If you're given, let's say, 2.5 cm margins to keep to, and you
> don't have Word, you can't know the exact number you have to use in Writer.
> In the image attached by Zsolt, 1st is Writer setting, 3rd is Word's
> setting, and 2nd shows the missing information(/setting) in Writer.

If you just set 2.5 margin in Word, you have the same result as when you just
set 2.5 margin in Writer.
When header/footers are involved, you need to follow the design, that should
mention header/footers height and distance. The only thing that differs is
where/how you set them in Writer and in Word.

> This is also what Joel experienced in bug 99639. While technically there
> might not have been a bug in the conversion, but a 2.5 cm margin in Writer
> and a 2.5 cm margin in Word resulted in ~0.75 pages of difference in 10
> pages. And if you have set limits to follow, that's a huge difference.

That problem has not been confirmed. We do not know what went wrong there.
I will attach two documents:
 - new DOCX document from Word with (default) margins
 - new DOCX from Writer with (default) margins
Both appear the same in Word and in Writer.

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Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also|https://bugs.documentfounda |
   |tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74 |
   |367 |

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Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also|https://bugs.documentfounda |
   |tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98 |
   |480 |

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Timur  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74
   ||367

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

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--- Comment #27 from Zsolt  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #25)
> (In reply to Zsolt from comment #22)
> 
> > How can this not be an issue when you can't set the position of the header,
> > you can just approximate by hand.
> 
> What exactly do you mean? This confuses me, since as far as I know, Format >
> Page, tabs Page / Header / Footer let you set very specific dimensions.

It seems to be better than it used to be.
Though you still have to muck around in the configuration to get an equal
result. Subtract the header height from the margin and re-set the margin.
Disable dynamic height, set the margin of the header to zero, or subtract that
also.

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--- Comment #26 from Aron Budea  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #25)
> What exactly do you mean? This confuses me, since as far as I know, Format >
> Page, tabs Page / Header / Footer let you set very specific dimensions.

If your document has to conform to given parameters (incl. margins), those
parameters will be given based on Word's behavior, because that's what is used
widely. If you're given, let's say, 2.5 cm margins to keep to, and you don't
have Word, you can't know the exact number you have to use in Writer. In the
image attached by Zsolt, 1st is Writer setting, 3rd is Word's setting, and 2nd
shows the missing information(/setting) in Writer.

This is also what Joel experienced in bug 99639. While technically there might
not have been a bug in the conversion, but a 2.5 cm margin in Writer and a 2.5
cm margin in Word resulted in ~0.75 pages of difference in 10 pages. And if you
have set limits to follow, that's a huge difference.

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--- Comment #25 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Zsolt from comment #22)

> How can this not be an issue when you can't set the position of the header,
> you can just approximate by hand.

What exactly do you mean? This confuses me, since as far as I know, Format >
Page, tabs Page / Header / Footer let you set very specific dimensions.

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--- Comment #24 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Joel Madero from comment #21)

> .yes, this stuff does in fact
> happen.

Your bug 99639 could not be reproduced by various people. (And in general it is
behaviour that I do not recognize in ~12 years..)

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--- Comment #23 from Joel Madero  ---

> 
> How can this not be an issue when you can't set the position of the header,
> you can just approximate by hand.
> The margins will be of course totally different, since the header is in the
> body.

To be fair I didn't have to estimate at all. When I open the document in the
duplicate bug that I reported it automatically opened and showed different
margins (1.39" on top and bottom instead of 1") so the computer did the work
for me.

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Zsolt  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Severity|enhancement |normal

--- Comment #22 from Zsolt  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #20)
> (In reply to Joel Madero from comment #19)
> > It's hard to think that this is an enhancement request when it causes some
> > serious interop issues 
> 
> Are we sure that this is the case? Normally the margins are just exported
> fine. Measured/set different, but the visual result is the same.
> Or are there reproducible cases that I miss?

How can this not be an issue when you can't set the position of the header, you
can just approximate by hand.
The margins will be of course totally different, since the header is in the
body.

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Aron Budea  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98
   ||480

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--- Comment #21 from Joel Madero  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #20)
> (In reply to Joel Madero from comment #19)
> > It's hard to think that this is an enhancement request when it causes some
> > serious interop issues 
> 
> Are we sure that this is the case? Normally the margins are just exported
> fine. Measured/set different, but the visual result is the same.
> Or are there reproducible cases that I miss?

All I know is that if you check the documents in MS Word it shows different
margins. When submitting digital files (vs. print), someone who is a stickler
for formatting (lots of people in my profession at least) would just check the
margins, see that it's not set to what they demanded, and proceed to refuse to
read the content.yes, this stuff does in fact happen.

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--- Comment #20 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Joel Madero from comment #19)
> It's hard to think that this is an enhancement request when it causes some
> serious interop issues 

Are we sure that this is the case? Normally the margins are just exported fine.
Measured/set different, but the visual result is the same.
Or are there reproducible cases that I miss?

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--- Comment #19 from Joel Madero  ---
It's hard to think that this is an enhancement request when it causes some
serious interop issues that prevent LibreOffice from being used in professional
settings where formatting is everything (where the content of a document can
and will be entirely ignored absent 100% compliance to specific formatting
requirements). Although we may all agree that it's unfortunate that MSO sets
some of these standards, the reality is that, at least in my profession, this
is a serious hindrance of ever relying on LibreOffice for legal work in my
jurisdiction.

Because I am personally impacted by this bug I'll refrain from changing the
status but I hope that others who are unbiased can at least consider my point
above.

I'd suggest somewhere between normal - medium to major - high is appropriate
considering really basic documents can be impacted with interop issues.

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Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl

--- Comment #18 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Zsolt from comment #6)

> But when I did this in
> writer I had to compensate by decreasing the margins by guessing to adhere
> to the rules, which is ridiculous. Its illogical, to do it this way. 

Of course, it is sometimes extra work. In general one starts setting general
lay out (page and other styles) before finishing text flow details.
And if header/footers are added later on, the size is know from the settings
(marginal exceptions as borders maybe aside).
Since it's my expectation that changing the current behaviour is a major^2
effort (with consequences in all areas of the software) I would not expect too
much of this. (Of course apart from why he choice for the situation as is, has
been made.) Just saying to manage expectations.

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Aron Budea  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||ba...@caesar.elte.hu
 Whiteboard||interoperability

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--- Comment #17 from Aron Budea  ---
*** Bug 99828 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|REOPENED|NEW
 CC||jmadero@gmail.com

--- Comment #16 from Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com ---
Should be NEW not REOPENED.

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--- Comment #15 from Victor Nitu deux.cr...@gmail.com 2012-09-13 11:40:58 UTC 
---
 @Peter:
 You did right to reopen this issue.
 
Thank you both for considering it worth discussing ;-)

 @All:
 Plese note: This is an enhancement request, not a bug report. You can think
 that this request is not useful. Mostly, it is just a matter of taste if one
 prefers the current behaviour or if one prefers the requested behaviour. But
 nevertheless this all does not make this feature request invalid, so please
 don’t close it so easily.
 

IMHO this can lead to a new option via Format - Page, on the Page tab rather
than individually on Header and Footer tabs. A radio button with some label
like header/footer location: with page margins/text body options will
surely do a nice job.

I agree it's an enhancement request, now that I see people are actually
supporting/using the current behavior I begin to think it's only a matter of
taste and habits.

I am still supporting my version though, and I have a solid use case for this:
imagine writing a long document, and *after* you finish it you realize you
forgot to add some header = this will be messing up a decent amount of page
formatting at least.

My $0.02 are either for an option or placement into margin.


Many thanks for your attention,

Victor

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--- Comment #14 from Roman Eisele b...@eikota.de 2012-09-08 06:25:51 UTC ---
(In reply to comment #12)
 I am sorry, looks like this issue was resolved with dynamic spacing button. 
 Am I correct?

Sorry, but ”dynamic spacing” is a completely different issue.

@Peter:
You did right to reopen this issue.

@All:
Plese note: This is an enhancement request, not a bug report. You can think
that this request is not useful. Mostly, it is just a matter of taste if one
prefers the current behaviour or if one prefers the requested behaviour. But
nevertheless this all does not make this feature request invalid, so please
don’t close it so easily.

IMHO the best thing to do is what has just begun in this report -- to discuss
the issue and to consider all pros and cons. Even better would be a discussion
with UI and/or page layout experts. If they say that the current behaviour is
clearly the better one, we can set this report to RESOLVED/WONTFIX. But until
that, the user is free to request this enhancement/change, and IMHO we should
not close the request.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

Peter aquash...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED
 Resolution|FIXED   |

--- Comment #13 from Peter aquash...@gmail.com 2012-09-08 00:54:46 UTC ---
I have tried enabling dynamic spacing with a header already in place and before
inserting a header, and neither time did it solve the aforementioned problem.
As a student who needs documents to have exactly 1 margins (from top of
document to body text - does NOT include headers, however much or little sense
that may make; it's the rule). Can someone please either: a) explain to me how
to use the dynamic spacing option to resolve this issue (it's not in the help
section) or b) revisit this issue? Thank you.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

--- Comment #11 from Matthew B mbilliode...@gmail.com 2012-05-13 16:57:55 PDT 
---
@Rainer Bielefeld, Thanks for reopening this.  It looks like a good
conversation.   I usually don't mind tinkering, so I have never cared about
this issue.  

The convention you use, I agree is most logical assuming a margin is only used
for the distance between the edge of the paper and where the printer begins
printing.  Unfortunately, someone who had market muscle implemented an
illogical system that has warped our way of thinking.  I wish your way of
thinking would catch on.

Until then, could there be a macro type fix?  Example, add a button on the side
of the Margin text under the Page tab called MLA/College style or
something.  Clicking it would open a window with:

   A.  Page Margin size input boxes,
   B.  Header/Footer Margin size input boxes, and
   C.  Header/Footer Distance from top and bottom of page input boxes.

Lets say the user puts in:
   A.  all 1 margins for the page,
   B.  1 header/footer size, and
   C.  .5 from top and bottom of page. 

The macro would automatically set the values appropriately:
   A.  Page's top and bottom Margin input boxes would be set to .5 
   (value is pulled from distance from page edge)
   (other values left as is)
   B.  Header/Footer's size would be set to 1.

My thoughts are, instead of rewriting how the program already works, other
peoples method of thinking can be accommodated by simply giving them a tool to
automatically convert whats in their head to what should be inputted into the
program.

Hope this made some sense.  Thanks for making Libre Office a great program.
Matthew B.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

Matthew B mbilliode...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|REOPENED|RESOLVED
 Resolution||FIXED

--- Comment #12 from Matthew B mbilliode...@gmail.com 2012-05-13 17:03:57 UTC 
---
I am sorry, looks like this issue was resolved with dynamic spacing button. 
Am I correct?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

Logan logatron...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||44941

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 33304] Header / Footer should be inserted into margin, not into text body

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33304

Roman Eisele b...@eikota.de changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||48741

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