Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Bob Jonkman]

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Sarcasm and humour don't translate well in a mailing list. And on an
international list like LibrePlanet cultural differences and language
differences make sly digs potentially offensive, never mind that it
completely defeats good communication.

It would set a good example to treat proprietary software companies
with the same respect we expect to get for upholding ethics and
freedom for users. That means not perverting their names in an attempt
at humour, and not attributing malice where none exists.

- --Bob.

On 2016-09-07 06:27 PM, IngeGNUe wrote:
> On 09/07/2016 01:23 PM, Serge Hooge wrote:
>> 
>>> What is PayEnemy? A Free/Libre implementation of PayPal? Do you
>>> have a link?
>> 
>> I am pretty sure it's just a tongue and cheek twist of PayPal.
>> 
> 
> Yup. Muahahaha :D
> 

- -- 


- --
Bob Jonkman   Phone: +1-519-635-9413
SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/
Software   ---   Office & Business Automation   ---   Consulting
GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA



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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[IngeGNUe]

On 09/07/2016 01:23 PM, Serge Hooge wrote:
> 
>> What is PayEnemy? A Free/Libre implementation of PayPal? Do you have a
>> link?
> 
> I am pretty sure it's just a tongue and cheek twist of PayPal.
> 

Yup. Muahahaha :D

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Serge Hooge]

> What is PayEnemy? A Free/Libre implementation of PayPal? Do you have a
> link?

I am pretty sure it's just a tongue and cheek twist of PayPal.

-- 
Serge Hooge

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against HTML e-mail 
/\- against proprietary attachments

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

The problem with BitCoin is that it's a separated currency. It doesn't
really serve to manage existing currencies. I can't use Electrum BitCoin
wallet to manage my Brazilian Reals (I don't have any, but anyways, it's
an example). GNU Taler seems to try to solve it, since it doesn't create
a currency on its own, but serve as a mere/simple transport agent.


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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Nathan Edson]

> What do people feel about bounties? You want a feature? Pay for it. If not 
> I'll get to it when I can. Bugs might be a tricky one but over charging 
> features can compensate for bugs?
I like this idea. There have been times when I want a feature only to
find the project is nearly dead or dying. I think the hurdle will be
creating a payment system that works for all parties. I think Bitcoin
shows promise - but as already mentioned, it can be hard for some to
easily acquire.
-- 

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[amunizp]

What do people feel about bounties? You want a feature? Pay for it. If not I'll 
get to it when I can. Bugs might be a tricky one but over charging features can 
compensate for bugs?
-- --
Andres (he/him/his)
Ham United Group
Richmond Makerlabs

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 05/09/16 17:22, Adonay Felipe Nogueira wrote:
> monthly donations aren't always possible because the user doesn't 
> always have a fixed monthly income to do such donation.
I am not suggesting enforcing a monthly donation on every user.

> Personally, I think that using Flattr also creates an extra account
>  to be managed
I did not suggest to use flattr. Maybe we can though -- I do not know
flattr well enough.

> It can work, but there must be no minimum amount.
I agree.

> However, I don't know what is the best design for payment standards
>  of such particularities described by Stallman.
Very few people have the requirements of rms, so I do not think that
catering to his needs should be first priority.

> Perhaps we should gather experts on various areas like networking,
>  maintenance and standards to discuss this how this should work
> out.
That would be nice, but not necessary in order to engage a vast
majority of users. A simple monthly donation program like I suggested,
or a simple "donate"-button, that uses PayPal or similar systems,
would likely be enough for a vast majority of users.

Designing a new payment system is largely an orthogonal problem. It is
moreover very difficult, and will require a large amount of work,
probably by leading researchers and engineers in the field.

- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

As noted by Stallman
(),
 monthly donations aren't always possible because the user doesn't always have 
a fixed monthly income to do such donation. Personally, I think that using 
Flattr also creates an extra account to be managed, specially if the example 
program given by me earlier comes true (since the user would be able to use the 
program periodically himself on his own computer to make the periodic 
donations).

It can work, but there must be no minimum amount.

However, I don't know what is the best design for payment standards of
such particularities described by Stallman. Perhaps we should gather
experts on various areas like networking, maintenance and standards to
discuss this how this should work out.

Taking the example program I gave earlier:

* In the case of Flattr the information in that example would pass
through this way:

User's "upp" client → Flattr's "upp" server → Flattr's "cron"-like task
to make periodic donations → Flattr's "upp" client → User bank's "upp"
server → Receiving party's "upp" server

* However, let's pretend that Flattr doesn't exist here, then:

User's "cron"-like task to make periodic donations → User's "upp" client
→ User bank's "upp" server → Receiving party's "upp" server


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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Alexander Berntsen]

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Something like flattr would be very useful. You could set up a flat
monthly donation, e.g. €10, and then you could (through some
interface) easily just say "support this software", on however many
programs you want. The €10 would then be divided between all the
programs you supported that month. Supporting the distro itself should
also be possible.
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[IngeGNUe]

On 09/05/2016 01:00 AM, jade...@openmailbox.org wrote:
> I agree completely. The only way for free culture and software to be 
> profitable is by making supporting developers as easy as possible. When you 
> make donations easy, they're more likely to happen. Right now there are too 
> many hoops and different methods used.
> Perhaps GNU Taler could be used in the future for one-click donations?
> 
> On September 4, 2016 6:10:54 PM CDT, Adonay Felipe Nogueira 
>  wrote:
>> I read the text made by Aseprite developer, and I also agree with all
>> points raised there and here also.
>>
>> Perhaps it's time for us to start thinking on that payment system
>> envisioned by Richard Stallman? (the one where you could click a button
>> on the software to donate to the project associated with it). Of
>> course,
>> Stallman suggested it for non-functional works, but we can perhaps work
>> to implement this also for functional works.

+1 to both.

Case in point: Bitcoin is supposed to be an easy way to donate, but
getting one's hands on Bitcoins requires jumping a bunch of hurdles if
one doesn't know the right people. Not sure whether the conversion rates
have stablized or not, but the fluctuations there also present a problem.

Since PayEnemy is kind of a last resort, it sure would be awesome to
have an easy way to donate to developers.

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[jadedml]

I agree completely. The only way for free culture and software to be profitable 
is by making supporting developers as easy as possible. When you make donations 
easy, they're more likely to happen. Right now there are too many hoops and 
different methods used.
Perhaps GNU Taler could be used in the future for one-click donations?

On September 4, 2016 6:10:54 PM CDT, Adonay Felipe Nogueira 
 wrote:
>I read the text made by Aseprite developer, and I also agree with all
>points raised there and here also.
>
>Perhaps it's time for us to start thinking on that payment system
>envisioned by Richard Stallman? (the one where you could click a button
>on the software to donate to the project associated with it). Of
>course,
>Stallman suggested it for non-functional works, but we can perhaps work
>to implement this also for functional works.
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

I read the text made by Aseprite developer, and I also agree with all
points raised there and here also.

Perhaps it's time for us to start thinking on that payment system
envisioned by Richard Stallman? (the one where you could click a button
on the software to donate to the project associated with it). Of course,
Stallman suggested it for non-functional works, but we can perhaps work
to implement this also for functional works.

There must be a standard that allows everyone to implement such payment
method and also carry the needed metadata about the receiving project
across various distributors.

Personally, I think that, as an addition to just providing information
about the receiving party, it must be periodically checked with another
party, or through a standard answer by the receiving end so as to avoid
sending money to the wrong person. I'm not a programmer, but something
like this should do it:

# Begin of example
# Just made it up: "upp" = "universal payment protocol".
# `uppclient --test` would access the specified IP and request for a
hash.

if uppclient --test "[Some IP address listening on a port for "upp"]" |
grep --quiet '[Some hash (e.g.: SHA256) that corresponds to "Receiver
Name"]'; then
# Use uppclient to get all the information from the receiving party and
send money through a third party previously defined by the user.
uppclient --send "[Same IP]" <<-EXAMPLE_CONTENT
Some standards-compliant information obtained from an
OpenGPG-encrypted file inside the user's computer.
This standards-compliant information could have details on how 
much to
withdraw, the account of the client that is being deducted from, and the
password, of course.
EXAMPLE_CONTENT
# The information about the third party through which the money will be
withdrawn would have to be in the configuration file of the "upp"
client.
fi
# End of example

Furthermore, perhaps projects like Reproducible Builds and also Guix (or
GuixSD) can ease the efforts on giving support, fixing bugs, testing,
and so on, and also avoid bundling of packages (ala Docker), and also
avoid language-based package managers (ala NPM for NodeJS, Pip for
Python, and so on).

Also, I think that what the `bashbug` command does for the case of
reporting bugs related to GNU `bash` can also be used to ease reporting
bugs, specially since, **as far as I was informed** (I might be wrong),
there's no need to register anywhere in order to report the bugs through
`bashbug`.


Finally, perhaps we must create a page on LibrePlanet.org about this
challenges and issues, and also to answer some misconceptions about the
free/libre software movement overall as suggested by some people here.

-- 
Brasileiro, ativista do software livre (oficialmente desde 2015).

Eu não me responsabilizo caso não consigamos abrir os arquivos que
enviamos uns aos outros. O principal responsável é **quase sempre** o
dono/proprietário do programa **que você usa**.

* Portfólio:

* Para saber quais redes sociais e sites eu uso, dentre outras formas de
entrarm em contato comigo, baixe meu cartão de visita virtual (vCard)
**com frequência**:

* Caso não encontre a rede social que você usa, isto significa que eu
desconheço ela ou que ela obriga a sociedade a usar programas de
computador não livres.
* Explore e compartilhe tudo o que estou compartilhando:




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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Pen-Yuan Hsing]

On 02/09/16 16:35, Serge Hooge wrote:

In light of the above items, I believe it will be so useful to have a
free software wiki page or FAQ (or some other thing) where it not
only answers common questions or dispels common misconceptions, but
also elaborates on specific concrete ways to *sustainably* manage a
free software project and make a living doing it.

I've said this before in a post a long time ago, and have seen some
of it addressed in disparate parts of the Internet. But I think a
consolidated location would be great.

What do you think? Is there a good place for such a document/FAQ?


I believe such a document wouldn't be a bad idea at all, as you
mentioned, posts such as these happen quite often and many developers
honestly believe it is impossible to make any sustainable living from
free software.

On the points mentioned by the Aseprite developer, one I happen to
agree with is that many standard package managers in GNU/Linux
distributions don't have good support for presenting paid packages.

Was there ever a discussion about this?


Great point. I recently had that frustration with F-droid on my phone. 
There are many libre apps I'm happy to pay for, but F-droid doesn't even 
present paying as an option. This is of course also true with the vast 
majority of GNU/Linux distributions I've tried. It is as if many free 
software advocates themselves forget that you *can* pay for free 
software and just *assume* that it is all gratis!


I think that's just another good reason to create such a document. Would 
the LibrePlanet wiki be a good place or somewhere else??

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Serge Hooge]

> In light of the above items, I believe it will be so useful to have a 
> free software wiki page or FAQ (or some other thing) where it not
> only answers common questions or dispels common misconceptions, but
> also elaborates on specific concrete ways to *sustainably* manage a
> free software project and make a living doing it.
> 
> I've said this before in a post a long time ago, and have seen some
> of it addressed in disparate parts of the Internet. But I think a 
> consolidated location would be great.
> 
> What do you think? Is there a good place for such a document/FAQ?

I believe such a document wouldn't be a bad idea at all, as you
mentioned, posts such as these happen quite often and many developers
honestly believe it is impossible to make any sustainable living from
free software.

On the points mentioned by the Aseprite developer, one I happen to
agree with is that many standard package managers in GNU/Linux
distributions don't have good support for presenting paid packages.

Was there ever a discussion about this?
-- 
Serge Hooge

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against HTML e-mail 
/\- against proprietary attachments

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Pen-Yuan Hsing]

On 02/09/16 15:59, Serge Hooge wrote:

It appears that the developer has posted an explanation here:

http://dev.aseprite.org/post/149797781837/new-source-code-license

Quite a shame, really.


I agree, this is quite a shame. I also think it is very important to not 
dismiss posts like these, and I have seen many of them!


1. This post made by the Aseprite author suggests that they have made an 
effort/tried to sustainably develop the software as free software.


2. Yes, it's true the post also contain points that indicate 
misconceptions on what free software means.


3. But rather than dismiss the post or hate the author for those 
misconceptions (which happens way too often!), it actually highlights 
that there is still *a lot* that needs to be done in terms of free 
software outreach and education to dispel misconceptions.


4. In addition to the management issues raised by the author, they also 
highlighted that they were not able to find a sustainable model to fund 
development and to stay alive. I strongly believe that this is a 
legitimate concern which the free software community has not adequately 
addressed, with Snowdrift.coop being one exception (I really hope it 
works!!).


5. Therefore I think it is worth addressing issues raised in the post in 
a *point-by-point* way.


In light of the above items, I believe it will be so useful to have a 
free software wiki page or FAQ (or some other thing) where it not only 
answers common questions or dispels common misconceptions, but also 
elaborates on specific concrete ways to *sustainably* manage a free 
software project and make a living doing it.


I've said this before in a post a long time ago, and have seen some of 
it addressed in disparate parts of the Internet. But I think a 
consolidated location would be great.


What do you think? Is there a good place for such a document/FAQ?

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 31/08/16 22:09, amunizp wrote:
> Bug report/issue on the commit? [0] will be more visible? 
This is also a possibility. Thank you for the idea. The issue tracker is
at GitHub[0].

[0]  
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[amunizp]

>
>Please join me in letting the developers know that this is not okay,
>and that we will not stand for the injustice of proprietary software.
>It's possible to contact them via email[0], Twitter[1], and
>Facebook[2].
>

Bug report/issue on the commit? [0] will be more visible? 


-- --
Andres (he/him/his)
Ham United Group
Richmond Makerlabs

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Koz Ross]

As the maintainer of awesome-gamedev, this is *very* concerning to me. Thank
you for letting me know - I will amend my link to point to the fork for now,
and will contact the Aseprite people via email and let them know my thoughts.

--
Koz Ross 
www.retro-freedom.nz

If you aren't using GPG, you should be! https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en.

Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html for why.

Proud member of the Open Wireless Movement.
Find out more at https://openwireless.org/

Proud member of Peers, at http://peers.community/ . We grow freedom.


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[libreplanet-discuss] Aseprite is now proprietary software

[Alexander Berntsen]

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One of my favourite gamedev tools, Aseprite, is now proprietary
software[0].

Aseprite is a very good pixel art editor which is used by myself and
lots of others to make free games.

Please join me in letting the developers know that this is not okay,
and that we will not stand for the injustice of proprietary software.
It's possible to contact them via email[0], Twitter[1], and Facebook[2].

If the developers of Aseprite persist in this direction, we will have
to carry on by ourselves. Someone called Rémi Verschelde has forked it
on GitHub[4], so that we can discuss where to go from here, if there
is no chance of Aseprite returning to a freedom respecting licence.

[0]

[1]  
[2]  
[3]  
[4]  
- -- 
Alexander
alexan...@plaimi.net
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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