them, ask and I'll e-mail them directly to
you.
--
Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh,
Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now!
rick (at) linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis
to be less than very clear on the distinction
between GPLed software and GNU software. The GNU packages are listed at
http://www.fsf.org/software/software.html
--
Cheers, "Heedless of grammar, they all cried 'It's him!'"
Rick Moen -- R
,
to me) to be treating it as GPL == GNU. I was merely pointing
this out.
My apologies. That would indeed be a problem, if so.
--
Cheers, "Heedless of grammar, they all cried 'It's him!'"
Rick Moen -- R.H. Barham, _Misadventure at Margate_
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
) to see what proportion of code
is in fact GNU software.
Runs the risk of accidentally assuming that each line of code is equally
significant.
--
Cheers, "Heedless of grammar, they all cried 'It's him!'"
Rick Moen -- R.H. Barham, _Misadventure a
software licences purport to be a transfer of
copyright, not a contract.
You're the guy whose name has those initials trailing after it; what are
we missing, here? ;-
--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Pro
one cannot absolutely prevent courts from doing perverse things,
only discourage it.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
plete lack of payment make assignment of liability to
the copyright-holder inequitable.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas
ntative. Regardless of which applies, I don't think further
comment is warranted.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
r round.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
-- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
-- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list
begin Derek J. Balling quotation:
Hope... trust... same thing
Judges... courts... same thing
Read what I said more attentively, or don't. But in either case, don't
waste more of my time.
--
Cheers, "Open your present...."
mapping makes it
look more robust than it is (ok, I'm reaching here, but you get the
point :) and it breaks...
I'm glad at least _one_ person understood the main point I posted
earlier. ;-
--
Cheers, "Open your present...."
Rick Moen
But many
have.)
Reply-to has been set, since meta-discussions can be pernicious.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
, "Open your present...."
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
-- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list
begin John Cowan quotation:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Rick Moen wrote:
As Brian Behlendorf pointed out, this list is concerned with
OSD-compliance, not with anyone's definition of free software.
All things being equal, I think the community prefers (and should
prefer) to see licenses
firm's lawyers.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar
s
readily to mind.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar
Angelo Schneider wrote:
Making "non authorized copies" is slavery!
Wow! 85 lines of question-begging. I believe that's a new record.
Don, what prize do we have for today's contestant?
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be
rs them.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar
was speaking of the combined work's
licence.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar
examples of businesses making money from free
software (e.g. Cygnus Solutions, Signum, Prosa)
I believe you misspelled "Red Hat, Signum, Linuxcare". ;-
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Se
agree. I've not yet found a licence I consider reasonable for
those purposes.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life."
a mailing list.
But, no licence means unlicenced: If anyone truly wishes some clear
and unambiguous permission to use that code, it will, as you say, be
necessary to contact the copyright holder(s).
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick
s is documented only in a long-ago thread on the Linux kernel mailing
list. Anyone have a reference?
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the res
cence terms interact.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
an easier time.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
begin John Cowan quotation:
Rick Moen wrote:
Well, that's not the whole truth either. I could take a bunch of
BSD modules, create a derivative work, and license the result under
the GPL. Or under a proprietary license, for that matter.
No, not exactly (unless you _own
I wrote:
In 3b, Bob takes from X your new version of Alice's BSD codebase, and
^
maybe sends you a thank-you note.
Should be "3c".
rather W.S. Gilbert sort of intellectual property,
methinks. Not that it doesn't happen; just that it's rather silly.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
rovided with the
affected code.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ted code in the first place.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
source
community a great deal of work contradicting your firm's assertions to
the contrary at every turn, and save your firm a public-relations
problem.
--
Cheers, "Because film is the pre-eminent American art form. You don't hear
Rick Moen people saying 'You know, this movie would
for around 4 years now (we only have Linux
products), that is why we try to start this discussion here. But the
immediate response was more than hostile.
Ignore any hostility. Deal with the OSD.
--
Cheers, "Because film is the pre-eminent American art form. You don't hear
Rick Moen p
a serious public-relations problem.
For it is _very_ obvious that, in fact, you do not intend to produce
open-source software, and never did. Good luck to you.
--
Cheers, "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us
Rick Moenin trouble. It's the things we
et make.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
, your company talking about "threats" is just yet another
tiresome digression. Either finally deal with the OSD, or pester some
other list, please. By and large, we're busy people.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optio
(modulo some reported
weakness in handling graphics), but reportedly has poor desktop-OS
software support.
These issues may become clearer if/when I try to prototype a site.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen
nline FAQs and other documentation. (I haven't examined the
copyright notices on LaTeX's source packages.)
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
is made to work atop "any standard
TeX system (or whatever replaces it)".
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
endum file,
and then distribute like mad.
--
Cheers, Before enlightenment, caffeine.
Rick Moen After enlightenment, caffeine.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
begin Jordan Logos Greenhall quotation:
So, would a world powered by Linux be worse-off than a world powered by
Windows?
http://www.perlguy.net/images/opensource1.gif
--
Cheers,Before enlightenment, caffeine.
Rick Moen After
--
Cheers,Before enlightenment, caffeine.
Rick Moen After enlightenment, caffeine.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
worked for Nixon.
--
Cheers, Right to keep and bear
Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Or denied. So there.
thus far written an open-source implementation of the algorithm.
Not relevant to the preceding discussion, but I thought it was an
interesting case study.
--
Cheers,My pid is Inigo Montoya. You kill -9
Rick Moen my parent process. Prepare to vi
intent. Which
suggests room for improvement.
--
Cheers, Evolution: Life's a niche, and then you die.
Rick Moen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
are
involved.
More about the project's licensing, here:
http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/main_faq_new.html
The 6.0 codebase is, at this date, pretty alpha-ish. But it's usable if
you're... very adventuresome.
--
Cheers, You can't lick the system -- but you can certainly
Rick Moen
(and the mechanics of dealing with copyright assignment) are
addressed, in some detail, in FSF's Information for Maintainers of GNU
Software, http://www.fsf.org/prep/maintain_toc.html . 'Hope that helps!
--
Cheers, I used to be on the border of insanity. However, due
Rick Moen
specific, but I'm rushed, again.)
--
Cheers,Please return all dogmas to their orthodox positions.
Rick Moen -- Brad Johnson, in r.a.sf.w.r-j
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
of law,
whether FSF claims it exists or not.)
--
Cheers, kill -9 them all.
Rick Moen Let init sort it out.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
. for its GPLed codebase.
I'm sure I'll find one or two that seem sound, if I look around.
--
Cheers, There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a
Rick Moen little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider
[EMAIL PROTECTED] price only are this man's
begin Matthew C. Weigel quotation:
I hate to be the constant crank, but...
Aha! A true spiritual heir of Baron Munchausen has been found, at last.
Tell us another one, Matthew.
--
Cheers, Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first
Rick Moen woman she meets
.
Refund duly tendered.
(My personal views; yours for a modest clickwrap licence fee and waiver
of reverse-engineering rights.)
--
Cheers, The Viking's Reminder:
Rick Moen Pillage first, _then_ burn.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
for this forum (or of interest to it).
--
Cheers, I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate
Rick Moen those who do. And, for the people who like country music,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] denigrate means 'put down'. -- Bob Newhart
?
The more sadly cynical among your readers might be led to suspect
flamebaiting.
--
Cheers,
Rick MoenPotestatem capite!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
, There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a
Rick Moen little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider
[EMAIL PROTECTED] price only are this man's lawful prey. - J. Ruskin (attr.)
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi
, By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your
[EMAIL PROTECTED] option, any later version. -- Seth David Schoen
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
in a private email.
I agree with Russ's statement, you disagree with it, and -- to complete
a misshapen circle -- you claim he agrees with you. What's the
expression? Do the math.
--
Cheers,
Rick MoenThis space for rant.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license-discuss
, in any
of the submitted-but-not-yet-approved licences. Frankly, I've not
noticed anything innovative and useful.
--
Cheers, Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?
Rick Moen -- Steven Wright
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license
.
--
Cheers, That article and its poster have been cancelled.
Rick Moen -- David B. O'Donnel, sysadmin for America Online
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
examples of them. Too bad that requires _work_ on your part,
when gratuitously complaining about other people is undoubtedly a great
deal easier.
--
Cheers, Evolution: Life's a niche, and then you die.
Rick Moen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com
with rhetoric, when that was failing. The European lawyer
(representing some CD-ROM-oriented firm?) was particularly cheeky about
that, you may recall.
-
Cheers, Learning Java has been a slow and tortuous process for me. Every
Rick Moen few minutes, I start screaming 'No, you fools! and have
begin Russell Nelson quotation:
There's nothing in the OSD which talks about privacy
You are of course quite correct in this; I had forgotten. And it is
disposative of the issue, unless the OSD were changed.
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
begin Rob Myers quotation:
It does however clash with many existing licenses that assume
acceptance of the license by usage of the code and give a general
offer of distribution on this basis.
I'm sorry, but I don't grasp what you mean. Perhaps you could give an
example.
It also requires a
time understanding domain
names, I represent linuxmafia.com: We make you an offer you can afford.
-
Cheers, Learning Java has been a slow and tortuous process for me. Every
Rick Moen few minutes, I start screaming 'No, you fools! and have to go
[EMAIL PROTECTED] read something from
begin Rob Myers quotation:
I de-jump and apologize for sowing confusion: I share that skepticism but am
clearly not best placed to express it.
Not a problem. You were certainly being a great deal more coherent than
I generally am before 10 AM. grin
--
Is it not the beauty of an
begin Greg London quotation:
The difference is APSL does not give you the option
of limiting source code to people to whom you give
your distributions. OSD allows source code to be
contained within a circle of friends.
That is exactly it. Thank you for clarifying the matter. I was very
begin Greg London quotation:
It seems to me that the MIT does not meet
item #2 of the OSD, then.
You're confusing source code of the original work with source code of
derivative works. Under MIT / BSD / similar, you're not guaranteed
access to the latter.
I suppose it would be physically
begin Steve Lhomme quotation:
Once again, as I wrote :
Is the OSI there to judge what a license is worth ?
Ah, I love polemical rhetorical questions! Thanks for the contribution
to my collection.
In the meantime, since you say your concerns are entirely theoretical,
and that you lack time
begin Greg London quotation:
I am saying the MIT license does not meet OSD #2. Since OSD #2 says
the program MUST include source code There is nothing in the MIT
license to guarantee OSD#2, so it fails to meet the definition.
Ahem. Nostalgic for freshman philosophy?
It would be physically
begin Matthew C. Weigel quotation:
I also think that the OSD contributes to this misunderstanding - I
think the wording of the introduction should be rewritten to not
suggest the distribution terms have to meet the OSD, but the
distribution terms or the distribution itself.
Actually, I
begin Greg London quotation:
Ah, several items just fell into place.
Yes, but they didn't fit.
Look, nobody's going to force-feed common sense to people who
don't want to read the OSD in the spirit intended. One has to
find one's own.
The DFSG (and thus the OSD) were indeed abstracted out
begin Russell Nelson quotation:
I am skeptical that you can find any existing requirement for
protection of privacy in the OSD.
I was stipulating none such being present.
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
--
Rick MoenThis is an IBM Manual scroll.--More__
[EMAIL PROTECTED] You are permanently confused. -- ADOM (a roguelike game)
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
begin Greg London quotation:
If someone puts out a bunch of source code under the MIT license, and
the distro is OSI certifiable, there is nothing to prevent someone
else from redistributing it in binary form only. Their only penalty
is that they lose OSI certification.
_Licences_ are
begin Greg London quotation:
_Licences_ are OSD-certified. Software is open-source or not, in
accordance with its nature (including but not limited to licensing).
http://www.opensource.org/docs/certification_mark.html
The OSI Certified mark applies to software, not to licenses.
Was
begin Karsten M. Self quotation:
- Apple's Darwin project is under the APSL, which remains quite
controversial.
Well, it is and it isn't. I examined this in at least a little bit of
detail when Evan Liebovitch was castigating Apple for allegedly leeching
(I paraphrase) off the BSDs.
begin Steve Lhomme quotation:
Here is my practical case for your pragmatic minds : I'm working (not
alone) on a derivation of the QPL license in order to make it GPL
compatible (and also a few minor changes).
Splendid. We will await with interest the cessation of rhetoric and
submission of
begin Russell Nelson quotation:
RMS is up-front about his objection to the APSL. It is not for any
restrictions on the distribution of the software, but instead for the
requirement to publish the source code to deployed modifications.
I hadn't previously looked up Stallman's views on
of OSI's approval process. You're clearly interested in
some radically different discussion, and should seek that elsewhere.
--
Cheers, Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first
Rick Moen woman she meets, and then teams up with three complete strangers
[EMAIL PROTECTED
leafnode 2.0beta would be very useful.
Perhaps some here will recall Nick Petreley's late lamented
forum.linuxworld.com machine (which ran using INN, which is overkill).
--
Cheers, A Discordian is a Taoist with a very strange sense of humour
Rick Moen and the inability to sit still
are
condemned to reinvent it, badly.
PS to Thorsten: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#pine
--
Cheers, A host is a host, from coast to coast.
Rick Moen And nobody talks to a host that's close,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead
begin Kenny Tilton quotation:
Anyway, i would find it strange to give the FSF the option effectively
to change the licensing of my stuff at any point in the future by
producing a new version of the GPL.
People specify or any later version iff they trust FSF to act to
perpetuate (in later
begin Justin Wells quotation:
[FSF:]
Its adversarity, say Microsoft Corp., has different ideas about how
the GPL v3 should be worded... for example, allowing Microsoft (and
only Microsoft) to incorporate all GPL'd software into Windows.
(Lawfully and with public acknowledgement, you mean.
begin Chris D. Sloan quotation:
That can only be done if the all of the relevent copyright holders can
be found and their permissions obtained, right?
I believe the gentleman's hypothetical concerned specifically software
available to recipients under GPL v. 2 or any later version. So, the
begin Kenny Tilton quotation:
What contradiction do you see?
I spoke of no contradiction. To repeat: I was unclear on the nature of
your question.
At first, you said you were planning to release some software under the
GNU GPL, but wanted our insights into the implications of these two
begin Chris D. Sloan quotation:
You have no right to create derivative works unless that right is
granted by the copyright holder.
I'm sorry, but weren't we talking about code under one version or
another of the GPL? If this discussion is going to trot out all of
copyright law every five
Quoting John Cowan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
Lawrence E. Rosen scripsit:
As for the GPL, where does it say that you can't distribute source
via a website? As I read it, you must merely distribute source code
on a medium customarily used for software interchange. I now get
almost all of my
Quoting Thorsten Glaser ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
begin Rick Moen dicebat
As anyone knows, emacs is short for
Escape Meta Alt Ctrl Shift
Eighty Megs And Constantly Swapping.
(We could go on.)
--
Cheers,
Rick Moen Emacs is a decent operating system,
[EMAIL PROTECTED
few enemies; a ruthless man has none.
Rick Moen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
-- and bafflegab rationalising about legal
departments not in evidence doesn't give me much hope for the silver
lining, either.
--
Cheers, Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first
Rick Moen woman she meets, and then teams up with three complete strangers
[EMAIL PROTECTED
to independently decide
to use one's software without any kind of exchange transaction?
--
Cheers, Don't use Outlook. Outlook is really just a security
Rick Moenhole with a small e-mail client attached to it.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]-- Brian Trosko
Quoting dave sag ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
* the software should be described as being pronoic unless you ask
for permission to use the term pronoic. in that case your request
will be denied.
This is just... so Zen. A modest proposal as to form follows:
The software should be
Described as
.
--
Cheers, Heedless of grammar, they all cried 'It's him!'
Rick Moen -- R.H. Barham, _Misadventure at Margate_
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
is headed off by a consistent Well,
don't do that, then policy.
What you've written is, at best, a solution in search of a problem.
(My view; yours for a small royalty fee and disclaimer of
reverse-engineering rights.)
--
Cheers,
Rick Moen Never ask a sysadmin What's up
prove me wrong.
None of the above has much to do with OSD-compliance, so I'll stop now.
--
Cheers, Open your present
Rick MoenNo, you open your present
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Kaczinski Christmas
be called Open Source according to
the laws and customs of the Medes and the Persians.
I'm fully aware of having digressed, and hope to be forgiven, some day.
--
Cheers, Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first
Rick Moen woman she meets, and then teams up with three
exactly
Rick Moen Since such is our habit inHow to do a thing or how
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Talking to machines; Every detail works.
Excerpt from Prof. Touretzky's decss-haiku.txt @ http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
Quoting Colin Percival ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
To save time, can we just agree that I have absolutely horrible
motives, that I'm a Microsoft plant, and that I'm reporting to the
Illuminati, and get back to discussing the license?
Well said.
I thought the second-guessing of your motives
Quoting Chris Knight ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
[ please discuss this license. -russ ]
For listmembers' convenience, I've converted the licence text into plain
ASCII, in the process fixing quite a number of goofy Microsoft-specific
high-bit special characters (weird quotation marks, stylised
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