Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
When the idea or selling point of a campaign is to provide a free edition it can be argued what that is needed for when there already _are_ good editions freely available. Then one should really find a good surplus over existing editions. This could for example be the possibility to make modifications like new arrangement of voices or transpositions. Don't know how this relates to your ideas, though. Urs Paul Tannous ptann...@hotmail.com schrieb am 25.03.2014: Urs Liska wrote: I recently made a similar suggestion with the Winterreise, and some commented it problematic to create new free editions of pieces that already exist in good free editions. Urs Urs, Do you recall why others found this to be “problematic”? Thanks, Paul T. -- Diese Nachricht wurde mit a href=https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onegravity.k10.pro2;bK-@ Mail/b/a gesendet.___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
Paul Tannous ptann...@hotmail.com writes: Shane: it would be more sensible to sell the .ly file at a higher cost. It is certainly the more valuable entity, both in terms of work in and future utility. After considering your comments, I and my team believe that we should offer the .ly files as the primary premiums to Kickstarter contributors. I'm not sure what primary premiums are. After all, anyone wanting to contribute to this initiative would most likely have an interest in LilyPond sources in general and in the LilyPond sources that we will be producing in particular. Well, the principal motivation of those supporting the free angle will likely be inpired by the free software movement, based on the four software freedoms: Freedom 0: The freedom to run the program for any purpose. Freedom 1: The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish. Freedom 2: The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. Freedom 3: The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements (and modified versions in general) to the public, so that the whole community benefits. It's pretty obvious that freedom 1 and freedom 3, when applied to a score rather than software, would best benefit from the availability of the .ly file. Make no mistake: I have seen impressive arrangements made by xerox and scissors (I remember some Brandenburg concerto rearrangement for strings, with flaps from orchestra voices pasted into another voice, and with transpositions and range adaptations by drawing in other clefs and additional staff lines while striking out others). But that's peanuts to what one can reasonably well do using LilyPond. The spirit of the GPL is that you can ask whatever you want for a program, but you get the right to distribute it and the corresponding sources for it in the bargain. So I think it would be a nice fit if the .ly file was included in any offering, making the people feel they are actually doing something for a freely available score as source material. As for perks: many people will consider it quite an effort actually doing anything with the .ly file, so you could offer custom transpositions or paper formats (of course, sans tweaking) in PDF form as perks. That's nothing that someone willing to learn LilyPond would not be able to do himself, but it might be a nice motivation for those who are in it for the paper score. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
You might check imslp.org, which often is a source for excellent engravings. I have no idea whether there is a scientifically approvable edition there. My thoughts referred in particular to the 19th century complete editions for example of Bach which combine unsurpassed typographical excellence and beauty with scholarly text. There are some who say that the NBA (New Bach Edition) does not give a significant advantage over that. Best, Simon Am 25.03.2014 07:23, schrieb Urs Liska: When the idea or selling point of a campaign is to provide a free edition it can be argued what that is needed for when there already _are_ good editions freely available. Then one should really find a good surplus over existing editions. This could for example be the possibility to make modifications like new arrangement of voices or transpositions. Don't know how this relates to your ideas, though. Urs Paul Tannous ptann...@hotmail.com schrieb am 25.03.2014: Urs Liska wrote: I recently made a similar suggestion with the Winterreise, and some commented it problematic to create new free editions of pieces that already exist in good free editions. Urs *Urs, * *Do you recall why others found this to be problematic? * *Thanks,* *Paul T.* -- Diese Nachricht wurde mit *K-@ Mail* https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onegravity.k10.pro2 gesendet. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
That's similar to what we do with the Fried songs: we include the sources in all perks starting from a certain price. Urs David Kastrup d...@gnu.org schrieb am 25.03.2014: Paul Tannous ptann...@hotmail.com writes: Shane: it would be more sensible to sell the .ly file at a higher cost. It is certainly the more valuable entity, both in terms of work in and future utility. After considering your comments, I and my team believe that we should offer the .ly files as the primary premiums to Kickstarter contributors. I'm not sure what primary premiums are. After all, anyone wanting to contribute to this initiative would most likely have an interest in LilyPond sources in general and in the LilyPond sources that we will be producing in particular. Well, the principal motivation of those supporting the free angle will likely be inpired by the free software movement, based on the four software freedoms: Freedom 0: The freedom to run the program for any purpose. Freedom 1: The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish. Freedom 2: The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. Freedom 3: The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements (and modified versions in general) to the public, so that the whole community benefits. It's pretty obvious that freedom 1 and freedom 3, when applied to a score rather than software, would best benefit from the availability of the .ly file. Make no mistake: I have seen impressive arrangements made by xerox and scissors (I remember some Brandenburg concerto rearrangement for strings, with flaps from orchestra voices pasted into another voice, and with transpositions and range adaptations by drawing in other clefs and additional staff lines while striking out others). But that's peanuts to what one can reasonably well do using LilyPond. The spirit of the GPL is that you can ask whatever you want for a program, but you get the right to distribute it and the corresponding sources for it in the bargain. So I think it would be a nice fit if the .ly file was included in any offering, making the people feel they are actually doing something for a freely available score as source material. As for perks: many people will consider it quite an effort actually doing anything with the .ly file, so you could offer custom transpositions or paper formats (of course, sans tweaking) in PDF form as perks. That's nothing that someone willing to learn LilyPond would not be able to do himself, but it might be a nice motivation for those who are in it for the paper score. -- Diese Nachricht wurde mit a href=https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onegravity.k10.pro2;bK-@ Mail/b/a gesendet.___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
Richard Shann wrote: Presumably someone will generate a set of PDFs and put them on IMSLP. And people who are not prepared to read the LilyPond sources - they just want the printed score - will get those, and would be wise to do so, since someone malicious could generate an altered version the the LilyPond sources to do bad things. While LilyPond is a specialized interest thing malicious files are not going to happen, except by pranksters, but it is something to bear in mind. (I hate to sound a note of caution). Richard Richard, You make a good point. We are now thinking of providing the LilyPond sources to Kickstarter contributors as premiums, rather than putting them out in the public domain. Thanks, Paul T. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
Urs Liska wrote: I recently made a similar suggestion with the Winterreise, and some commented it problematic to create new free editions of pieces that already exist in good free editions. Urs Urs, Do you recall why others found this to be problematic? Thanks, Paul T. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
it would be more sensible to sell the .ly file at a higher cost. It is certainly the more valuable entity, both in terms of work in and future utility. Shane On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 5:27 AM, Johan Vromans address@hidden wrote: Paul Tannous address@hidden writes: Anyone wanting a printed copy, could download and install LilyPond if they didn't have it already. The idea would be to generate interest in LilyPond. That's a noble idea, but aren't you afraid that it will have the opposite effect and scare people away? I don't see many vanilla computer using musicians jump through the hoops of building and installing LilyPond just to get some score PDFs. Wouldn't something like this work better (amounts are arbitrary): - for 5$ or more you get the source - for 10$ or more you get the PDF - for 50$ or more you get a printed copy mailed -- Johan ___ Shane and Johan, After considering your comments, I and my team believe that we should offer the .ly files as the primary premiums to Kickstarter contributors. After all, anyone wanting to contribute to this initiative would most likely have an interest in LilyPond sources in general and in the LilyPond sources that we will be producing in particular. Thanks, Paul T. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
Mike Solomon wrote: Sounds like a great idea! Make sure to e-mail choir directors across the US to see what may interest them - even if they cannot contribute financially to the project, it will have more chances of success if you have concerts lined up to which donors can go, a recording that they can receive, a program in which their name appears, etc.. All the best and good luck! Cheers, MS Mike, I think that your suggestion to reach out to choir directors is a good one. What do you believe would be the most efficient way to contact choir directors across the country? Thanks, Paul T. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:21 AM, Paul Tannous ptann...@hotmail.com wrote: Lilyponders, I am considering starting a Kickstarter project to engrave a major choral work in LilyPond that is in the public domain. The idea is to raise funds to pay for the LilyPond engraving, proofreading, contributor premiums, etc. The LilyPond source would then be put into the public domain. Rather than make PDFs available, the LilyPond source could be put on a web site with the URL for LilyPond. Anyone wanting a printed copy, could download and install LilyPond if they didn't have it already. The idea would be to generate interest in LilyPond. Premiums for contributors could be PDFs of some of the parts of the engraved choral work or even the whole score for large contributors. From what I've seen of Kickstarter, typically the smallest premium that is attractive enough to generate contributions is a T-Shirt. So, this could be one of our premiums. If you have ideas for other premiums, they would be appreciated. If this project is successful, other projects for different works could be started. A successful project might spawn imitators making even more LilyPond source works available. I have talked to several choir directors about what to use for a first project. Handel's 'Messiah' was suggested by all of them. I am aware of Nicolas Sceaux's fine work in engraving 'Messiah', but the choir directors who spoke with me prefer to use a different version for their performances. All comments regarding this project will be appreciated. Thank you, Paul Tannous Sounds like a great idea! Make sure to e-mail choir directors across the US to see what may interest them - even if they cannot contribute financially to the project, it will have more chances of success if you have concerts lined up to which donors can go, a recording that they can receive, a program in which their name appears, etc.. All the best and good luck! Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
Am 22.03.2014 08:57, schrieb Mike Solomon: On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:21 AM, Paul Tannous ptann...@hotmail.com wrote: Lilyponders, I am considering starting a Kickstarter project to engrave a major choral work in LilyPond that is in the public domain. The idea is to raise funds to pay for the LilyPond engraving, proofreading, contributor premiums, etc. The LilyPond source would then be put into the public domain. Rather than make PDFs available, the LilyPond source could be put on a web site with the URL for LilyPond. Anyone wanting a printed copy, could download and install LilyPond if they didn't have it already. The idea would be to generate interest in LilyPond. Premiums for contributors could be PDFs of some of the parts of the engraved choral work or even the whole score for large contributors. From what I've seen of Kickstarter, typically the smallest premium that is attractive enough to generate contributions is a T-Shirt. So, this could be one of our premiums. If you have ideas for other premiums, they would be appreciated. If this project is successful, other projects for different works could be started. A successful project might spawn imitators making even more LilyPond source works available. I have talked to several choir directors about what to use for a first project. Handel's 'Messiah' was suggested by all of them. I am aware of Nicolas Sceaux's fine work in engraving 'Messiah', but the choir directors who spoke with me prefer to use a different version for their performances. All comments regarding this project will be appreciated. Thank you, Paul Tannous Sounds like a great idea! Make sure to e-mail choir directors across the US to see what may interest them - even if they cannot contribute financially to the project, it will have more chances of success if you have concerts lined up to which donors can go, a recording that they can receive, a program in which their name appears, etc.. I recently made a similar suggestion with the Winterreise, and some commented it problematic to create new free editions of pieces that already exist in good free editions. Urs BTW: Did you see http://igg.me/at/free-fried? All the best and good luck! Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- Urs Liska www.openlilylib.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
Paul Tannous ptann...@hotmail.com writes: Anyone wanting a printed copy, could download and install LilyPond if they didn't have it already. The idea would be to generate interest in LilyPond. That's a noble idea, but aren't you afraid that it will have the opposite effect and scare people away? I don't see many vanilla computer using musicians jump through the hoops of building and installing LilyPond just to get some score PDFs. Wouldn't something like this work better (amounts are arbitrary): - for 5$ or more you get the source - for 10$ or more you get the PDF - for 50$ or more you get a printed copy mailed -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
On Sat, 2014-03-22 at 03:21 +, Paul Tannous wrote: The LilyPond source would then be put into the public domain. Rather than make PDFs available, the LilyPond source could be put on a web site with the URL for LilyPond. Anyone wanting a printed copy, could download and install LilyPond if they didn't have it already. The idea would be to generate interest in LilyPond. Presumably someone will generate a set of PDFs and put them on IMSLP. And people who are not prepared to read the LilyPond sources - they just want the printed score - will get those, and would be wise to do so, since someone malicious could generate an altered version the the LilyPond sources to do bad things. While LilyPond is a specialized interest thing malicious files are not going to happen, except by pranksters, but it is something to bear in mind. (I hate to sound a note of caution). Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
it would be more sensible to sell the .ly file at a higher cost. It is certainly the more valuable entity, both in terms of work in and future utility. Shane On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 5:27 AM, Johan Vromans jvrom...@squirrel.nl wrote: Paul Tannous ptann...@hotmail.com writes: Anyone wanting a printed copy, could download and install LilyPond if they didn't have it already. The idea would be to generate interest in LilyPond. That's a noble idea, but aren't you afraid that it will have the opposite effect and scare people away? I don't see many vanilla computer using musicians jump through the hoops of building and installing LilyPond just to get some score PDFs. Wouldn't something like this work better (amounts are arbitrary): - for 5$ or more you get the source - for 10$ or more you get the PDF - for 50$ or more you get a printed copy mailed -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
Urs Liska wrote: I recently made a similar suggestion with the Winterreise, and some commented it problematic to create new free editions of pieces that already exist in good free editions. Urs BTW: Did you see http://igg.me/at/free-fried? If you start a project, be sure and give the URL on the list as Urs did. I looked at his project and contributed. Chris ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
Am 22.03.2014 19:23, schrieb Chris Crossen: Urs Liska wrote: I recently made a similar suggestion with the Winterreise, and some commented it problematic to create new free editions of pieces that already exist in good free editions. Urs BTW: Did you see http://igg.me/at/free-fried? If you start a project, be sure and give the URL on the list as Urs did. And don't be shy and do that more than once ;-) I looked at his project and contributed. Thank you very much! Already noticed :-) Chris ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter
Lilyponders, I am considering starting a Kickstarter project to engrave a major choral work in LilyPond that is in the public domain. The idea is to raise funds to pay for the LilyPond engraving, proofreading, contributor premiums, etc. The LilyPond source would then be put into the public domain. Rather than make PDFs available, the LilyPond source could be put on a web site with the URL for LilyPond. Anyone wanting a printed copy, could download and install LilyPond if they didn't have it already. The idea would be to generate interest in LilyPond. Premiums for contributors could be PDFs of some of the parts of the engraved choral work or even the whole score for large contributors. From what I've seen of Kickstarter, typically the smallest premium that is attractive enough to generate contributions is a T-Shirt. So, this could be one of our premiums. If you have ideas for other premiums, they would be appreciated. If this project is successful, other projects for different works could be started. A successful project might spawn imitators making even more LilyPond source works available. I have talked to several choir directors about what to use for a first project. Handel's 'Messiah' was suggested by all of them. I am aware of Nicolas Sceaux's fine work in engraving 'Messiah', but the choir directors who spoke with me prefer to use a different version for their performances. All comments regarding this project will be appreciated. Thank you, Paul Tannous ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
