Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[David Kastrup]

Jeff Olson  writes:

> On 11/1/2023 6:37 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
>> 
>
> Thanks, David. Now I'm really smiling to have learned something new!
> Your knowledge is more encyclopedic than Wikipedia.

That claim is more of a stretch than a gut string, I am afraid.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[David Kastrup]

Jeff Olson  writes:

> On 11/1/2023 6:37 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
>> 
>
> Thanks, David. Now I'm really smiling to have learned something new!
> Your knowledge is more encyclopedic than Wikipedia.
>
> I once mail-ordered a fretted u-bass but exchanged it for the fretless
> style, which I find easier to play (lighter touch) and more
> expressive.  Intonation can even be better on fretless as the strings
> can develop nonuniformities in density. Wonder if that's why those
> fretted basses from the 1770's died out?

I think it is more likely due to vibrato having become a tenet of string
sound (partly because it hides the fundamental problem of intonation)
and frets considerably reduce the amount and change the character of
vibrato (I know that you can bend the pitches of the sitar a whole lot,
but the character of its frets is quite different).

Viols were used much more polyphonically than modern bowed strings, so
vibrato wasn't really an option and the frets improved intonation more
than they deteriorated it.

For plucked/hammered/struck strings, the mathematical time/frequency
unsharpness relation makes the intonation stand out less because of the
tone decay (for example, few people notice that pizzicato strings sound
higher than when they are bowed).

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[Jeff Olson]

On 11/1/2023 6:37 AM, David Kastrup wrote:




Thanks, David. Now I'm really smiling to have learned something new! 
Your knowledge is more encyclopedic than Wikipedia.


I once mail-ordered a fretted u-bass but exchanged it for the fretless 
style, which I find easier to play (lighter touch) and more expressive.  
Intonation can even be better on fretless as the strings can develop 
nonuniformities in density. Wonder if that's why those fretted basses 
from the 1770's died out?


Thanks again!
Jeff

Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[David Kastrup]

Jeff Olson  writes:

> The only reason I cc'd Harm was that he was one of five listed under
> Documentation in http://lilypond.org/authors.html, and in previous
> posts he had identified himself as a [fellow] classical guitarist.  So
> I imagined he might smile, as I did, at seeing the double bass listed
> among fretted instruments.



-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le mardi 31 octobre 2023 à 21:31 -0600, Jeff Olson a écrit :
>  
>  
> P.S. What's the best way to alert somebody whenever I see a small nit like
> this in the documentation?  I don't have an account on gitlab, nor do I
> subscribe to the bugs or developers lists.
>  


The normal way to report a problem is to write to the bug-lilypond mailing list.
You don't need to be subscribed.




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Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[Jeff Olson]

On 10/31/2023 4:23 PM, David Kastrup wrote:

Jean Abou Samra  writes:


Le mardi 31 octobre 2023 à 20:40 +0100, David Kastrup a écrit :

Given that I was way less comfortable with English at the time
than I am today, it is possible that I fell into the trap of a
false cognate: the French "cordes frottées" sounds similar to
"fretted strings" but in fact means "bowed strings".

Well, maybe I had the wrong reading of the posts here.  Hopefully not
the wrong writing.




Thank you, David, for your prompt action, and Jean for that humorous story.

The only reason I cc'd Harm was that he was one of five listed under 
Documentation in http://lilypond.org/authors.html, and in previous posts 
he had identified himself as a [fellow] classical guitarist.  So I 
imagined he might smile, as I did, at seeing the double bass listed 
among fretted instruments.


And thanks, Michael, for your pointer to that documentation in your 
response to the OP.  I try to follow such links when they're from 
someone who apparently knows more about the topic than I do. It is, 
indeed, an excellent read.


I hope everyone is now smiling.

Jeff

P.S. What's the best way to alert somebody whenever I see a small nit 
like this in the documentation?  I don't have an account on gitlab, nor 
do I subscribe to the bugs or developers lists.

Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[David Kastrup]

Jean Abou Samra  writes:

> Le mardi 31 octobre 2023 à 20:40 +0100, David Kastrup a écrit :
>
>> > I'm not the OP but that is excellent documentation, save for one word:
>> > 
>> > 
>> > "In the following example, staves devoted to wind instruments are
>> > removed in the second system; however, the double bass is not,
>> > because it is part of the larger group of *fretted* strings, which
>> > is playing."
>> > 
>> > 
>> > That larger group in the example consists of Violin I, Violin II,
>> > Alto, Cello, Double bass.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Nothing to fret about, unless you're in documentation, eh Harm?
>> 
>> I know Harm as a pretty good fretted string instrument player.  Probably
>> this should just be "strings" which it typically associated with the
>> kind of instruments listed there and has the advantage that you don't
>> get into trouble for a) pizzicato (which is weird for "bowed strings")
>> or b) viol (which is both bowed and fretted and may be used in a string
>> section for nostalgically informed practice).
>
>
> Why is the blame being put on Harm here?
>
>
> ```
> commit 8c166ecb8d1049c3c54f0488dbcbe22de6eb6a51
> Author: Jean Abou Samra 
> Date:   il y a 3 ans et 5 mois
>
>
> Add dynamic-interface to keepAliveInterfaces
> 
> This will prevent \Remove[All]EmptyStaves from removing
> Dynamics contexts containing dynamics attached to spacer
> rests but no actual notes (the standard use case
> for a Dynamics context). Also improve the documentation
> about \RemoveEmptyStaves and \RemoveAllEmptyStaves.
> ```
>
>
>
> (That was my first patch.)
>
>
> Given that I was way less comfortable with English at the time
> than I am today, it is possible that I fell into the trap of a
> false cognate: the French "cordes frottées" sounds similar to
> "fretted strings" but in fact means "bowed strings".

Well, maybe I had the wrong reading of the posts here.  Hopefully not
the wrong writing.



-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[Jean Abou Samra]

Hi,

Le mardi 31 octobre 2023 à 20:40 +0100, David Kastrup a écrit :

> > I'm not the OP but that is excellent documentation, save for one word:
> > 
> > 
> > "In the following example, staves devoted to wind instruments are
> > removed in the second system; however, the double bass is not,
> > because it is part of the larger group of *fretted* strings, which
> > is playing."
> > 
> > 
> > That larger group in the example consists of Violin I, Violin II,
> > Alto, Cello, Double bass.
> > 
> > 
> > Nothing to fret about, unless you're in documentation, eh Harm?
> 
> I know Harm as a pretty good fretted string instrument player.  Probably
> this should just be "strings" which it typically associated with the
> kind of instruments listed there and has the advantage that you don't
> get into trouble for a) pizzicato (which is weird for "bowed strings")
> or b) viol (which is both bowed and fretted and may be used in a string
> section for nostalgically informed practice).


Why is the blame being put on Harm here?


```
commit 8c166ecb8d1049c3c54f0488dbcbe22de6eb6a51
Author: Jean Abou Samra 
Date:   il y a 3 ans et 5 mois


Add dynamic-interface to keepAliveInterfaces

This will prevent \Remove[All]EmptyStaves from removing
Dynamics contexts containing dynamics attached to spacer
rests but no actual notes (the standard use case
for a Dynamics context). Also improve the documentation
about \RemoveEmptyStaves and \RemoveAllEmptyStaves.
```



(That was my first patch.)


Given that I was way less comfortable with English at the time
than I am today, it is possible that I fell into the trap of a
false cognate: the French "cordes frottées" sounds similar to
"fretted strings" but in fact means "bowed strings".


Cheers,

Jean




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Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[Jeff Olson]

On 10/31/2023 1:40 PM, David Kastrup wrote:

Nothing to fret about, unless you're in documentation, eh Harm?

I know Harm as a pretty good fretted string instrument player.  Probably
this should just be "strings" which it typically associated with the
kind of instruments listed there and has the advantage that you don't
get into trouble for a) pizzicato (which is weird for "bowed strings")
or b) viol (which is both bowed and fretted and may be used in a string
section for nostalgically informed practice).


Agreed, on both counts.

No blame; just raising awareness to  documenters.

Jeff

Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[David Kastrup]

Jeff Olson  writes:

> On 10/30/2023 11:27 AM, Michael Werner wrote:
>> This is based on
>> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.25/Documentation/notation/hiding-staves
>
> I'm not the OP but that is excellent documentation, save for one word:
>
>"In the following example, staves devoted to wind instruments are
>removed in the second system; however, the double bass is not,
>because it is part of the larger group of *fretted* strings, which
>is playing."
>
> That larger group in the example consists of Violin I, Violin II,
> Alto, Cello, Double bass.
>
> Nothing to fret about, unless you're in documentation, eh Harm?

I know Harm as a pretty good fretted string instrument player.  Probably
this should just be "strings" which it typically associated with the
kind of instruments listed there and has the advantage that you don't
get into trouble for a) pizzicato (which is weird for "bowed strings")
or b) viol (which is both bowed and fretted and may be used in a string
section for nostalgically informed practice).

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[Jeff Olson]

On 10/30/2023 11:27 AM, Michael Werner wrote:
This is based on 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.25/Documentation/notation/hiding-staves


I'm not the OP but that is excellent documentation, save for one word:

   "In the following example, staves devoted to wind instruments are
   removed in the second system; however, the double bass is not,
   because it is part of the larger group of *fretted* strings, which
   is playing."

That larger group in the example consists of Violin I, Violin II, Alto, 
Cello, Double bass.


Nothing to fret about, unless you're in documentation, eh Harm?

Jeff

Re: Show TacetStaff when StaffGroup empty

[Michael Werner]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 9:57 AM Pierre-Luc Gauthier <
p.luc.gauth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello there,
>
> Please let this not be a duplicate.
>
> Is there a way for the tacet staff to be shown *only* when all the other
> staves are empty ? Manual intervention is not a viable option here.
>

If I understand correctly what you're after, the following seems to do the
trick:

\version "2.25.9"

\language "english"

tacet = {
  R1*40
}

musicA = {
  \repeat unfold 28 g'4 |
  \repeat unfold 4 g'4 |
  R1*10
  \repeat unfold 16 f'4 |
}
musicB = {
  R1*4
  \break
  \repeat unfold 16 c'4 |
  \break
  R1*10
  \break
  \repeat unfold 16 d'4 |
}

\new StaffGroup \with { \consists Keep_alive_together_engraver }
<<
  \new Staff \with {
instrumentName = "Tacet"
shortInstrumentName = "Tacet"
\override VerticalAxisGroup.remove-layer = 2
  } \tacet
  \new Staff \with {
instrumentName = "A"
shortInstrumentName = "A"
\RemoveAllEmptyStaves
\override VerticalAxisGroup.remove-layer = 1
  } \musicA
  \new Staff \with {
instrumentName = "B"
shortInstrumentName = "B"
\RemoveAllEmptyStaves
\override VerticalAxisGroup.remove-layer = 1
  } \musicB
>>

This is based on
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.25/Documentation/notation/hiding-staves
-- 
Michael