On Fri, 11 May 2001, Uri Bruck wrote:
As for testing how things actually work on Windows,
The behavior on Windows in widgets and in applications is not necessarily
the same. In widgets:
It is consistent across widgets drawn by the OS's graphical toolkit. it
isn't consistant in applications
On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 10:36:42AM +, Oded Arbel wrote:
It is a model to go by. language isn't dependant on alignment, but writing
direction should be changed when alignment is changed - and hence the
current language (If I switched the widgets alignment from LTR to RTL, I
think it's safe
On Sun, 13 May 2001, Oded Arbel wrote:
On Fri, 11 May 2001, Uri Bruck wrote:
As for testing how things actually work on Windows,
The behavior on Windows in widgets and in applications is not necessarily
the same. In widgets:
It is consistent across widgets drawn by the OS's
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 01:04:35PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
It depends what you mean by #1: if you mean switch language and the local
direction that goes with it, than you are not missing anything. But Ehud
wrote Direction unchanged,
Way back I used to read an Arabic computing mailing, some members of which
were reading this list too.
I'll try to look them up.
On Thu, 10 May 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
small question has anybody aksed our cousins about what they are
thinking? What are they doing? Maybe all arabic
we are talking about bidi in general if any arabic or japanise speaking
person want to speak up go ahead.
I never saw any on those in here sadly enough
Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel
On Thu, 10 May 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| small question has anybody
On Fri, May 11, 2001, Ely Levy wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
we are talking about bidi in general if any arabic or japanise speaking
person want to speak up go ahead.
I never saw any on those in here sadly enough
How did we get into this kind of discussion? :(
First, if you look
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 11:36:53PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
By the way, I think there is another that some key combination we need
to do: switch the main direction of the current widget.
Isn't this what we're talking about all the time, discussing the
LeftCtrl-Shift combo?
There should be
On Thu, May 10, 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 11:36:53PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
By the way, I think there is another that some key combination we need
to do: switch the main direction of the current widget.
Isn't this what
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 01:04:35PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
It depends what you mean by #1: if you mean switch language and the local
direction that goes with it, than you are not missing anything. But Ehud
wrote Direction unchanged, Hebrew, etc., and in that case something was
missing (I
OK. I want to give a short summary of things the way I understand them:
We need two sets of key bindings:
1. switch keymap This one is handled by the X server. This is because the
server sends keysyms to programs, and thus the server has to translate
keyboard clicks to symbols.
Currently the
small question has anybody aksed our cousins about what they are
thinking? What are they doing? Maybe all arabic speakers had come with a
good solution. and if we want to change the world, thinking about how a user
will act, we must remember that hebrew is not the only bidirectional
lenguage.
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Shai Berger wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
Ilya suggested,
Is there any chance you guys will add Left/Right-Ctrl-Shift
bindings for changing the editing widgets' strong BiDi directionality?
Suggestions along this line have come up many times
Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
SNIP
Emacs
(There's a bidi-emacs effort, for those of you who don't remember)
SNIP
Some ideas about the right way to implement this have
where discussed by Eli Zaretskii and others some time ago on one of the
Bidi/Herbew mailing
Ilya suggested,
Is there any chance you guys will add Left/Right-Ctrl-Shift
bindings for changing the editing widgets' strong BiDi directionality?
Suggestions along this line have come up many times, but they are problematic.
Many X and non-X *NIX utilities treat Ctrl-shift or Alt-shift as
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 12:37:08PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
Do we really want to break consistency with the *NIX world for consistency
with Windows? Doesn't that make you feel the least bit awkward? Don't we
ever want to pose a viable, independent alternative?
Compatibility with the *NIX
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Shai Berger wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
Ilya suggested,
Is there any chance you guys will add Left/Right-Ctrl-Shift
bindings for changing the editing widgets' strong BiDi directionality?
Suggestions
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 12:37:08PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
Do we really want to break consistency with the *NIX world for consistency
with Windows? Doesn't that make you feel the least bit awkward? Don't we
ever want to pose a viable,
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Shai Berger wrote:
The alternative, of course, is the perfectly useless Scroll Lock key, which
even has a unused led attached to it on most keyboards.
But it's really far from the typist's small finger. It is also
unavailable on some keyboards. Try to come up with
Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Shai Berger wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
not keyboard events (which makes more sense IMHO), and so setting Ctrl-shift to
...
This is an excellent point.
Hear, hear!
Do we really want to break consistency
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Some time ago I was also using the Caps-Lock (which I find a totally useless
key ever since I stopped programming in Fortran ;),
[this is really off-topic, but...]
Fortran
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 12:37:08PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
But note that modern (read Microsoft-influenced) keyboards also have other
useless keys which we could confiscate for Hebrew use, such as the right
Alt key (which is commonly used for multiple language support), the Windows
key and
-
From: Nadav Har'El [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wed 09 May 2001 13:40
To: Ivrix Discussions
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Bidi support for Linux
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about Re: Bidi support for
Linux:
Nadav Har'El [EMAIL
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Boaz Rymland wrote:
hell, i dont know where this thread came from but I'll surely vote with
Nadav !
I suggest a petition to Sun equip' makers to switch the CAPS and CONTROL
keys back to their original locations !
I'm not sure exactly, but I believe that all you need is
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 02:39:34PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Some time ago I was also using the Caps-Lock (which I find a totally useless
key ever since I stopped
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 02:45:38PM +0300, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 12:37:08PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
But note that modern (read Microsoft-influenced) keyboards also have other
useless keys which we could confiscate for Hebrew use, such as the right
Alt key
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
This is problematic, because if you want to press ctrl-shift-5 (for example)
and after pressing ctrl-shift you change your mind, what are you going to
do? depressing the keys will get you that magic Hebrew-switching combination...
You can, perhaps,
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oded Arbel wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
This is sick ! come one. let's take a look at a more commonly used
Modifier used as a 'command' - the innocent Alt key. what happens if you
want to press Alt-F, and in the middle change your mind ? releasing the
Alt key
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oded Arbel wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
This is sick ! come one. let's take a look at a more commonly used
Modifier used as a 'command' - the innocent Alt key. what happens if you
want to press Alt-F
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Oded Arbel wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
also - you are contradicting yourself - doesn't Nagata Nasata apply to
CTRL_SHFT_F vs. CTRL_SHFT too ?
No. As I was trying to explain (please reread my previous posting), Alt
alone vs. Alt-F was deliberately designed
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:42:05PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
And I don't think, by the way, that Windows gives any special meaning to
Ctrl-Shift-F (replace F by whatever character) - if I remember correctly
it just does the normal switch-to-Hebrew thing, and doesn't pass this
sequence to the
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 07:28:07PM +0300, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:42:05PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
And I don't think, by the way, that Windows gives any special meaning to
Ctrl-Shift-F (replace F by whatever
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:42:05PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
And I don't think, by the way, that Windows gives any special meaning to
Ctrl-Shift-F (replace F by whatever character) - if I remember correctly
it just does the normal
On Wed, 09 May 2001 12:09:04 +0300, Shai Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Is there any chance you guys will add Left/Right-Ctrl-Shift
bindings for changing the editing widgets' strong BiDi directionality?
Suggestions along this line have come up many times, but they are problematic.
Many
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Ehud Karni wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
On Wed, 09 May 2001 12:09:04 +0300, Shai Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I suggest using the right and left arrow keys, such that:
Ctrl+Shift+Left == R2L direction, Hebrew (or any other R2L font)
Ctrl+Shift+Right
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Wed, May 09, 2001, Ehud Karni wrote about Re: Bidi support for Linux:
On Wed, 09 May 2001 12:09:04 +0300, Shai Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I suggest using the right and left arrow keys, such that:
Ctrl+Shift+Left== R2L direction, Hebrew
Ehud Karni wrote:
I suggest using the right and left arrow keys, such that:
Ctrl+Shift+Left == R2L direction, Hebrew (or any other R2L font)
Ctrl+Shift+Right == L2R direction, Latin (or any other L2R font)
Alt+Shift+Left == Direction unchanged, Hebrew (or any other R2L font)
Eran Tromer wrote:
Ctrl-LeftShift-LeftShift== R2L direction, Hebrew
Ctrl-RightShift-RightShift == L2R direction, Latin
Alt-LeftShift-LeftShift == Direction unchanged, Hebrew
Alt-RightShift-RightShift == Direction unchanged, Latin
E.g., for the first option you press Ctrl and hit
On Wed, 9 May 2001 15:08:48 +0300, Adi Stav [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why not keep ctrl-shift-key passing the event on to whoever was
looking for it, but keep ctrl-shift alone as a direction changer?
I think that's what Windows does, too. I feel that direction change is a
very Meta thing,
On Thu, 10 May 2001 00:23:51 +0200, Eran Tromer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ehud Karni wrote:
I suggest using the right and left arrow keys, such that:
Ctrl+Shift+Left == R2L direction, Hebrew (or any other R2L font)
Ctrl+Shift+Right == L2R direction, Latin (or any other L2R font)
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:
And I don't think, by the way, that Windows gives any special meaning to
Ctrl-Shift-F (replace F by whatever character) - if I remember correctly
it just does the normal switch-to-Hebrew thing, and doesn't pass this
sequence to the application. So if
Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
SNIP
Emacs
(There's a bidi-emacs effort, for those of you who don't remember)
It's pretty much on ice, until Emacs-21 will be finally released, Which
should happen very soon now (TM). currently there is a primitive (read
low level) support
]
Subject: Re: Bidi support for Linux
Mati, Rega Ehad ;)
The suggestions we received can be classified as follows:
I'm affraid you're either mixing or stepping on other toes (projects that are
done or being done)
Basic Support:
Keyboard mapping - already done. Look inside XFree 4.0.3
Notes address has changed. Please
update your address book.
Ilya Konstantinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 07/05/2001 21:58:17
Please respond to Ilya Konstantinov [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Matitiahu Allouche/Israel/IBM@IBMIL
cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Bidi support for Linux
Some time ago, I posted on this list a call for suggestions about where to
invest development efforts in order to improve the Bidi support in Linux.
We received a few answers, and we are still considering our options.
Anyway, I think we owe some sort of report to this list, so here
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Anyway, I think we owe some sort of report to this list, so here it
is.
Thanks, very nice of you. I must admit I didn't follow this thread
close enough, and a part of it was on ivrix I guess, so a couple
of quick comments with question marks:
Word processor
Mati, Rega Ehad ;)
The suggestions we received can be classified as follows:
I'm affraid you're either mixing or stepping on other toes (projects that are
done or being done)
Basic Support:
Keyboard mapping - already done. Look inside XFree 4.0.3 or the
upcoming XFree-4.1
Fonts
Hi Mati, Heetz and everybody
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
Mati, Rega Ehad ;)
The suggestions we received can be classified as follows:
I'm affraid you're either mixing or stepping on other toes (projects that are
done or being done)
Basic Support:
Keyboard
On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 02:37:50PM +0300, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
XFree has the backend (config files for xkbcomp). There is an obvious need
for better front-ends for Xkb, that will fully utilize it (more than
switch layout. For instance: use mouse-keys, set keys for layout
switching,
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 02:37:50PM +0300, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
XFree has the backend (config files for xkbcomp). There is an obvious need
for better front-ends for Xkb, that will fully utilize it (more than
switch layout. For instance: use
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on 07/05/2001 12:47:49
Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Matitiahu Allouche/Israel/IBM@IBMIL
cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Bidi support for Linux
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Anyway, I think we owe some sort of report to this list, so here
On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 03:40:56PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If HTML format is good enough for your needs, the composer in Mozilla is a
possible solution. At least this is a non-proprietary format.
I second this. Mozilla's Composer is an excellent solution for simple
documents. Is there
Fonts is a major problem. Even for a home system this complicates settings
(what will you set for the default font of kde? the ugly fixed? After
bothering that much with adding antialising ? ;-) ).
For a more-than-hobbyist environemnt (which may be what IBM is aiming for)
such solutions
Just two issues:
On 07-May-2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
GUI
QT/KDE
GTK/Gnome
Tk (as in Tcl/Tk) worth a look. Advantages:
1. Bargain deal. Three languages at once (almost):
Tcl, Perl, Python (assuming portable Tk)
2. Portable solution (Linux, Unices, even
There are the Ivrix mailing-lists, which are dedicated to advancing Hebrew
support on Linux.
For information about them check:
http://www.iglu.org.il/mailing-lists/
and
http://www.ivrix.org.il/
What I would like to see? I suppose usable Gtk+/GNOME and Qt/KDE widgets
that support bidi are
(Bidi). IBM is ready to invest a significant amount of
developers time in order to improve the Bidi support in Linux. Everybody
will benefit.
Glad to hear that ;)
The team to which I belong has extensive experience of Bidi support,
including in Unix (Motif), but quite limited acquaintance
On Mon, Apr 16, 2001, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote about "Re: Bidi support for Linux":
Ok, pointers, I'll be happy to share pointers with you..
First, you're coming at some "odd" timing - QT 3.0 which have bidi support
will come out soon as an official beta (snapshots are avai
Hello Hetz
[...]
* keyboard switching - it sounds trivial, but you'll be amazed how much it's
not. KDE got this weird combination of CTRL-ALT-K, while I didn't see
anything in GNOME about it. Also, You must make sure you have the hebrew map
in your XFree to support it, and support it
On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Oren Held wrote:
Hello Hetz
[...]
* keyboard switching - it sounds trivial, but you'll be amazed how much it's
not. KDE got this weird combination of CTRL-ALT-K, while I didn't see
anything in GNOME about it. Also, You must make sure you have the hebrew map
in
"Nadav Har'El" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
P.S. a propos vaporware, where is Redhat 7.1?? I've been hearing rumors
about it for 3 days, and yesterday a "7.1" directory popped up on Redhat's
servers (unreadable). But no "respectable" site wrote anythign about this.
Does anybody know if it's
prioritize
| as "Vital", "Important", "Nice to have", etc...
|
| Of course, we don't have unlimited resources, and we don't commit to
| anything, but I assure you than I am not wasting your time, and we do
| intend to help improve the Bidi support in Linux.
actually rsync thing was just a mistake...
Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel
On 16 Apr 2001, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
| "Nadav Har'El" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
|
| P.S. a propos vaporware, where is Redhat 7.1?? I've been hearing rumors
| about it for 3 days,
On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:43:09PM +0300, Ely Levy wrote:
I'm sure many people would be more than gratfull for that especially
orgs who need to maintain windows computers only so people could read
word/ppt docs on them
As to reading Word docs, you can use Abiword to export most sane Word
On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:43:09PM +0300, Ely Levy wrote:
I'm sure many people would be more than gratfull for that especially
orgs who need to maintain windows computers only so people
could read
word/ppt docs on them
As to reading Word docs, you can use Abiword to export most sane
You put a lot on emphasis on the "prediction" that even when QT 3 comes
out it will take 12-18 months to use it (and similarly for Gtk). Why is
that? Why can't the current KDE be patched to work with QT-3.0 (instead
of waiting for some vaporware KDE release), and then some distribution
needs to have a reasonable support
for Hebrew (Bidi). IBM is ready to invest a significant amount of
developers time in order to improve the Bidi support in Linux. Everybody
will benefit.
The team to which I belong has extensive experience of Bidi support,
including in Unix (Motif
In a previous message [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked for tools where he can invest
effort to add/enhance their bidi support.
My question is: can lesstif be regarded as a tool for that matter? If so can
anyone comment on the status of its bidi support?
--
Shaul Karl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
of
developers time in order to improve the Bidi support in Linux. Everybody
will benefit.
The team to which I belong has extensive experience of Bidi support,
including in Unix (Motif), but quite limited acquaintance with Linux.
My question is for the seasoned Linux users in this newsgroup: where
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